Hard Fork issue .. Ranchi Mall opinion

[RohitTripathy]

"To all investors of Ranchi Mall BitCoin bonds issue"

BitCoin prices have fallen below 1000 USD. All BitCoin bond holders should treat their bonds as 12/13 percent annual rate of interest bearing instruments at invested amounts right now These instruments have full price protection, and minimum return guarantees.

Furthermore Ranchi Mall is taking over minimum guarantee requirements in 1057 series bonds from Deepa Khanapurkar. All other terms and conditions remain the same in that series including distribution of profit arrangements.

The current price fall is due to a more fundamental reason than previous price falls that occured due to Chinese government intervention and non-approval of ETF by SEC. There is a split in BitCoin movement itself, with one faction wanting to change underlying technology, and other faction wanting to keep it same. The faction that wants to keep things same was dominant till now, but the other faction called BitCoin Unlimited is gaining more support. The faction which gets 51 percent support wins. BitCoin founder Satoshi Nakamoto whom I consider a genius had a mechanism to solve such issues. That mechanism has never been used till now, and a lot of people including those in BitCoin core group have no idea how will it work out. They feel an unstructured break can happen, which is called "Hard Fork". This uncertainty is causing the price fall.

But of course no such hard fork will happen. The moment BitCoin Unlimited gains 51% of mining support, they will be the new masters, and they will decide the shape of underlying technology. And current leaders, the BitCoin Core group will fade into oblivion. BitCoin design is so strong that I do not consider hard fork issue anything more than temporary fear

So this in our view is a temporary price fall. Ranchi Mall holds onto its belief that BitCoins is one of the best investible assets around, and given enough time, 3 years in our opinion, the superiority of BitCoins as an asset class will amply be clear. We have coded that expectation as a 3 year lock-in period for our investors.

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[chronicsky]

What exactly is this bitcoin bond?

[cryptoheadd]

What exactly is this bitcoin bond?

Never heard of this before either.
I'd like to know more about the same too.

[RohitTripathy]

Its a financial product created by Ranchi Mall based on BitCoin prices. Currently offered in a very limited scale to iron out the procedures.

For first time customers, you basically invest 100 USD or Rs 7000. All of proceeds are used to buy BitCoins. And you get 13 percent annual assured returns. In addition you also get price protection against downside risk. And 50 percent of all price gains belong to you .. The rest 50 percent is owned by Ranchi Mall. There is a 3 year lockin period.

There is limitations in number of clients we accept because Ranchi Mall has to block its capital to assure returns.

In order to prevent it being used for money laundering and terrorist financing, the names of bondholders and amounts invested are public.

You can find entire history in http://facebook.com/ranchimall

[cryptoheadd]

Why wouldn't I just buy 100 USD worth of Bitcoins and keep them in cold storage?
Therefore, not giving you 50% of the returns?

[RohitTripathy]

Its targeted at first time investors who find BitCoins too complicated, and do not want to take price and IT risk.

And those who do not have a clear view of price trends on BitCoins.

The rate of return is higher than normal fixed deposits .. So its an attractive alternative.

[chronicsky]

Its a financial product created by Ranchi Mall based on BitCoin prices. Currently offered in a very limited scale to iron out the procedures.

For first time customers, you basically invest 100 USD or Rs 7000. All of proceeds are used to buy BitCoins. And you get 13 percent annual assured returns. In addition you also get price protection against downside risk. And 50 percent of all price gains belong to you .. The rest 50 percent is owned by Ranchi Mall. There is a 3 year lockin period.

There is limitations in number of clients we accept because Ranchi Mall has to block its capital to assure returns.

In order to prevent it being used for money laundering and terrorist financing, the names of bondholders and amounts invested are public.

You can find entire history in http://facebook.com/ranchimall

i understand all but how are you giving 13% annual assured returns?

[RohitTripathy]

Because I believe the price appreciation over 3 years will be more than that. And I have sold limited bonds with adequate personal capital to guarantee those returns including price protection in the interim.

[btvGainer]

Its targeted at first time investors who find BitCoins too complicated, and do not want to take price and IT risk.

And those who do not have a clear view of price trends on BitCoins.

The rate of return is higher than normal fixed deposits .. So its an attractive alternative.

First of all bitcoin is not in any way complicated for users.For a first time users it may take some time to understand but it happens with everything even when you buy a brand new mobile.You get time to get used to it interface.
Second whether they buy on their own and keep and invest with you the risk is always there.You can not eliminate risk and any claim to do so is false.

[RohitTripathy]

Well .. Both of your assertions are assumptions 😊 I have done 4 bond issues, and all of them were fully taken up the within 24 hours. So obviously my assumptions come up with proof of execution 😉

And if BitCoins were as easy as mobile phones as you claim, they would be selling like mobile phones too.

Further more I am not claiming no risk. There is a counterparty risk of Ranchi Mall default that the investors are taking. I am only claiming if counter party risks were accepted, the price and IT risks are minimized with BitCoin Bonds. All our investors understand that risk, and have chosen to accept it against the consideration they are receiving.

[RohitTripathy]

Well I have only accepted 50 customers. Not taking any new ones for now. A Ponzi scheme needs new customers to pay for old. A ponzi scheme also offers astronomical rate of returns, and needs aggressive selling. A ponzi scheme also usually creates a pyramid or binary strucrure.

I have an upper limit on investment per customer. I have an upper limit on number of customers. And I have an absolute flat and linear structure. No sales agent. Only when enough profits accumulate to guarantee minimum returns that I am going to reopen for new customers. I can totally freeze this whole thing today, and will have no issues in servicing the existing investors without a hitch if BitCoin prices generate 13 percent per annum or more in next 3 years. Thats roughly 450 USD price gain in 3 years. Not a tall order in my opinion. Even if BitCoin prices are not above 1500 USD after 3 years, I can still honor my contracts by my personal capital for current customers.

So Sir, by no stretch of imagination is it a Ponzi scheme.

[chronicsky]

As i asked!
I can agree on all the things for once that bitcoin might be hard for some people ...

Scam is not only of one type, what you're explaining above is called MLM Scam.
What i basically understand is that you're tryingto make profit of other people's investment i.e. 50% profit to you and 50% to them which is not at all wrong...
But to Gaurantee 13% return on something uncertain is not at all genuine.

Let's imagine a scenario where bitcoin falls to 250$ (march 2015) , so there investment falls by ~75% and you have gaurantee of 13% profit on a bond which basically means 13% int. on capital so, do you have enough capital to fund those 75% loss + more 13% on 100% as a whole? Are you always keeping that much Liquidity?

Also if you have sold 50 bonds so far and you won't sell more , what is the total these bonds amount to?
I'm not saying that you're trying to pull of a scam here but when it comes to such thing the difference maybe too thin...
And we do not know your intentions either...

[RohitTripathy]

I have a full list of people and their investments on my web and FB link here as the whole thing is public to prevent money laundering and terrorist financing.

http://ranchimall.net/BitBonds/

 https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1373337272709276&substory_index=0&id=959702797406061

Those people who have known me for years have higher limits than Rs 7000.

The total investments is roughly USD 9000 or lets say Rs 6 Lakhs now. My annual guarantee costs is about 1000 USD.

So these amounts are not large. I have personal capital coverage of at least 10 times that amount for this product. So even if BitCoin prices go to zero, I can meet all my existing commitments without loosing a single hour of sleep.

The future increase in customers will happen only when the product itself will generate profits to cover future minimum guarantee requirements. So I will not put my personal capital at work for future customers.

Since I am taking 100 percent of downside price risk, 50 percent of upside gains is a fair deal for customers with 12 or 13 percent minimum guaranteed annual return.

The amounts look small now, because I am treading slowly and carefully on this. The biggest challenge is good risk management, and making sure that the program is stable over a very long time, lets say 20 years or so.

[cryptoheadd]

You seem like a legit member, but I don't like the idea of the lock-in period and if people invest in your bond, their funds would get blocked for 3 years.
Is there an option for early withdrawal?

Do you sign a contract binding you to make the payouts?

What's the process of investing in your bonds?

[RohitTripathy]

Lockin period is absolutely needed for safety of investors in this case, and my safety too. Just not BitCoins markets, but any financial market can behave very irrationally in short term. However, you hide cannot hide the fundamentals in longer term.

The core hypothesis in this product is that demand growth for BitCoins will outstrip the supply of BitCoins by more than 13 percent on annualized basis. However for this phenomena to show up, you have to give adequate time.

I have judged 3 years to be adequate time.

So investors have to take that commitment if they really want stability of returns. This is not a get rich quick product. I want investors on a safe and sound journey with me.

Currently I am not accepting any new customers for this product. I will open up the window again if prices go beyond USD 1350 per BitCoin. With current price trends, looks it may take time

I will put a message in India BitCointalk group if I reopen. And as always, first time customers will have an upper limit of Rs 7000. And I will open it up only for 15 new customers then.

I am here for long run. So its going to be easy and slow

Its the tortoise that wins the race, not the rabbits.

[RohitTripathy]

Your concerns are absolutely genuine. Thats why I have opened myself up for scrutiny.

There are lot of scam funds out there. It is expected in freely operating market. Thats why buyer beware is such an important need in BitCoin universe.

I am not operating a scam. I want to build a healthy and long term relationship with BitCoin users of this world who have given us such a wonderful instrument.

SEC rejecting Winklevoss ETFs is very good news. Satoshi Nakamoto envisioned a decentralized system of value transfer. We want to stay true to that vision. We don't want centralization to creep in through backdoors.

BitCoins is direct power to people. We want politicians and regulators to be out of it for once.

Well I have only accepted 50 customers. Not taking any new ones for now. A Ponzi scheme needs new customers to pay for old. A ponzi scheme also offers astronomical rate of returns, and needs aggressive selling. A ponzi scheme also usually creates a pyramid or binary strucrure.

I have an upper limit on investment per customer. I have an upper limit on number of customers. And I have an absolute flat and linear structure. No sales agent. Only when enough profits accumulate to guarantee minimum returns that I am going to reopen for new customers. I can totally freeze this whole thing today, and will have no issues in servicing the existing investors without a hitch if BitCoin prices generate 13 percent per annum or more in next 3 years. Thats roughly 450 USD price gain in 3 years. Not a tall order in my opinion. Even if BitCoin prices are not above 1500 USD after 3 years, I can still honor my contracts by my personal capital for current customers.

So Sir, by no stretch of imagination is it a Ponzi scheme.

You have said exactly what every person who has conducted a ponzi scheme in the past has said - that "No, Its not a Ponzi Scheme"

Investing in any bitcoin related "fund" is pure idiocy, show me one such fund which as been successful? I admint I dont know much about India's investment scenario, but globally Btc funds are mere a sham. SEC simply said no to a multi mullion dollar BTC scheme proposed by Winklewoss twins for the very reason that BTC is not a stable currency to run any kind of fund based on it

[chronicsky]

-snip-
Do you sign a contract binding you to make the payouts?
-snip-

^^^

[cryptoheadd]

Currently I am not accepting any new customers for this product. I will open up the window again if prices go beyond USD 1350 per BitCoin. With current price trends, looks it may take time

I will put a message in India BitCointalk group if I reopen. And as always, first time customers will have an upper limit of Rs 7000. And I will open it up only for 15 new customers then.

I just want to know the process of investing. I'm not interested in investing in your bond.
Taking investments at $1350 might not leave much room for growth.

And I don't think the lock-in period is required. 3 years is a lot of time and you should give the option to the users to cash-out if they want to.

Holding someone else's money required you to have a legal license for the same. (As far as I know, a PPI license is required to hold customer funds in a prepaid instrument. But then also you can only store their funds for a year and not more than that.)

Do you have a legal license?

And do you accept the payments in Bitcoin or fiat?

EDIT:

-snip-
Do you sign a contract binding you to make the payouts?
-snip-

^^^

Please answer this question as well.

[RohitTripathy]

"Do I sign a binding contract "
Yes. I do a blockchain contract which binds Ranchi Mall publicly to this financial contract.

"Is this product licensed"
No its not. BitCoin itself is not licensed so putting a BitCoin based product to licensing requirement is a big contradiction. However customer safety is still needed and we have to devise non-licensing methods to achieve the objectives of protecting the customer. Vendor need to protect reputation, Internet Activism, transparency of scheme and data, and full disclosures can achieve the same goals. Thats my belief. I will not put up any of my BitCoin based product to any licensing ever. Government licensing will open doors for entrepreneurial stagnation and corruption. I would want my potential customers to know our philosophy in advance. And then make up their mind if they want to associate. None of BitCoin exchanges are licensed, and people still give their money to them. This is exactly the correct way.

"Lockin period is too long"
I need long term investors. I am a big follower of Warren Buffett long term investment strategies. I do have some other BitCoin based financial contracts like Art Bonds and Startup Contracts in pilot where there is no lockin. But for this product lockin is must to deliver the kind of returns BitCoins as an asset class is capable of.

"Do I accept payments in BitCoins or Fiat"
My preference is BitCoins. But most of our customers have never brought BitCoins before. So I do that for them. We have a few who paid in BitCoins. However the returns is denominated in US dollars.

"Taking to USD 1350 will leave too little for growth"
I disagree. The potential is much higher. But you can always treat it as 13 percent bearing bonds no matter what price you got it, and thats a great assured return on its own if you accept counter-party risks.

[RohitTripathy]

And how do you get licensed for any BitCoin product in any case .. Hahaha

Currently I am not accepting any new customers for this product. I will open up the window again if prices go beyond USD 1350 per BitCoin. With current price trends, looks it may take time

I will put a message in India BitCointalk group if I reopen. And as always, first time customers will have an upper limit of Rs 7000. And I will open it up only for 15 new customers then.

I just want to know the process of investing. I'm not interested in investing in your bond.
Taking investments at $1350 might not leave much room for growth.

And I don't think the lock-in period is required. 3 years is a lot of time and you should give the option to the users to cash-out if they want to.

Holding someone else's money required you to have a legal license for the same. (As far as I know, a PPI license is required to hold customer funds in a prepaid instrument. But then also you can only store their funds for a year and not more than that.)

Do you have a legal license?

And do you accept the payments in Bitcoin or fiat?

EDIT:

-snip-
Do you sign a contract binding you to make the payouts?
-snip-

^^^

Please answer this question as well.