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Author Topic: Fuck: SegWit, LN, Blockstream, Core, Adam Back, and GMazwell  (Read 46169 times)
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March 26, 2017, 08:46:28 AM
 #41

The reason why the price is going down is because we don't like the BU threat that will give the power over the blocksize to just 5 mining pool operators (or effectively 1 ASIC manufacturer.) I like bitcoin for it's decentralization properties, not because I trust Jihan Wu so much. I will never accept the idiotic idea called "emergent consensus."

Big blocks are great. I definitely want to see safely planned blocksize increase after Segwit. And if it won't be merged in the beginning in Bitcoin Core, I will just support another client, but emergent consensus is still a joke and Segwit is still the obvious way forward.
Others have said this before, and I think it is worth saying again. The support that BU is getting is not because the ideas behind BU are so great, it is because of the strong opposition to Core and SW.

I don't believe there are any SW features that are *needed* today/now, but are rather features that might be nice to have in the future. Larger blocks on the other hand is something that Bitcoin has needed for years now. I don't see a reason why SW should get implemented prior to larger blocks, especially after what happened with the HK agreement.

Even if you don't like some Core developers, it should not be a reason to support a broken risky concept "emergent consensus" and to reject Segwit without any proper technical arguments.

Segwit will give us effectively 2.1 MB blocks (if used.) If "Roger Ver" and "Jihan Wu" really cared about "more transactions", they could have Segwit activated in just a few weeks. Any blocksize increase by HF will take much longer than that - especially if you want to have a non-contentious HF (eg no blockchain split.) This should be enough reason to activate Segwit ASAP even if someone hates "Core" so much. We can just focus on a good dynamic blocksize increase with safe thresholds etc after that.

In my opinion second layers like the Lightning Network are very cool too and will be much easier with Segwit too. Buying coffee was never really feasible with bitcoin, not because of the fees, but because of the slow blocks (10 min avg, but frequently 1h.) LN will not just make micro-transactions very cheap, but also allows them to be instant. Of course it would still take years before we can really use this, but if we could at least test it on mainnet already - progress will probably go even quicker. Note that there are already 6 different LN implementations: Amiko-Pay, Eclair (ACINQ), lightningd (Blockstream), lit (MIT Digital Currency Initiative), lnd(Lightning Co), Thunder (Blockchain.info) - some of them work already on testnet. While I still have many skeptical questions about LN, it does seem nice for small (low-value) payments.

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March 26, 2017, 08:52:59 AM
 #42

Stop with this drama already, you guys are not being helpful at all, let Segwit/Ln done by expert programmers come first, and then we go to HF big blocks if needed, Roger please understand that, we like you and things you have done for Bitcoin, now this is getting just too much, and Bitcoin has grown big and has a big infrastructure and thousands of people jobs are dependent on it. We should get together and not fight, we need to be one. Let us please go with Segwit/ LN softfork first and then see for 3/4 months and go with HF to bigger blocks if still network congestion and high fees persists. Please stop this fight, don't reduce a great revolution of Bitcoin which is a revolution equal to that of Internet and has changed how money works for the past 4000 years to something less. Please get together, we love you both Core and BU. I support both Core and BU, let us first go with Soft Fork and then go with Hard Fork if necessary.
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March 26, 2017, 08:57:28 AM
Last edit: March 26, 2017, 09:39:19 AM by Alex.BTC
 #43

This is factually wrong. It was F2Pool who broke the agreement, effectively making it void. There was no explicit mention of a 2 MB block size increase, rather a HF proposal with a HF proposal. Luke-jr ended up delivering such a proposal, even after the agreement was void. Your bullshit story about previously supporting Core, but now you're dissapointed/don't is bullshit. BTU people are really desperate with these stunts.

No, Adam Back changed his position from "President of Blockstream" to "individual", and after complaints from miners it was changed back again, together with the insults from Greg, at that point the trust was already gone.

Lauda, the thing with screaming is that you can't do that all the time, if you do then everything you say simply become white noises. Have more confidence in yourself, you don't have to scream all the time to get your point across, and when you're wrong, you're wrong, regardless of how loud you scream.


What Satoshi saw or not is completely irrelevant today. He can't predict the future.

Here we go again; this is before ASICs came to be, something that Satoshi failed to predict. Current miners do not control nor decide what Bitcoin is.

That is the problem with Core, they all think they are smarter than Satoshi, but none of them actually are. They talk big and play the act, but their decisions kept running Bitcoin into the ground, then instead of fixing it they act like they're proud of it.

Random passengers with the IQ of a baboon want to be the ones deciding how the plane's engine is going to be built. Roll Eyes The limits are technological.

As oppose to what? Random bitches screaming at everyone online thinking she's smarter than Satoshi?
Fact remains Core devs supported block sized increase, but went against if after they joined Blockstream.

Here it is, you reveal your true colors; either you're: 1) Completely uneducated and ignorant; 2) Paid shill by Ver company (or other).

You're stuck in some kind of us-against-them mentality, not thinking about the users at all, if you have, you'd see that I am just another digital currency user, disappointed in Core wasting the potential Bitcoin has.

It's ok Lauda, we know you're screaming the loudest here because you're the most insecure, and you haven't been loved for a really long time, so I forgive you.  Wink
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March 26, 2017, 09:23:15 AM
 #44

Alex.BTC you sure look like any other BU supporter to me. Newly created account  Roll Eyes

Segwit offers the fees relief every BU supporter is asking for. And much faster than any BU hardfork would have. Scaling will be moving forward. BU has no chance at adoption whatsoever why not just accept this ? Everybody makes mistake, you can't force other people to think like you. Roger and a few mining pools is not going to be enough to overpower the majority of users and devs. Did you read the exchanges letter? This delusion is madness. Even if you could, is that the Bitcoin you would want to be in ? Because today it's you, tomorrow it will be a government trying the same thing on you if they see it's doable.

Delay SW longer in the hope to prop a deadman walking BU or get what you say you want (cheaper fees). Hard choice? I don't think so. It's a simple matter of humility and clear-thinking at this point.

In the future we would really benefit from some coin signalling tools at the protocol level so people can't be mistaken about the users wills and dream up phantom majorities.
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March 26, 2017, 09:23:49 AM
 #45

Who does then Lauda?  Fucking Blockstream and their paid group of takeover artists?  No fucking way.  

Miners still control.  Go run your stupid chain with no miners and have your fucking LN as you wish.  The real Bitcoin is going to continue the way Satoshi wanted it.  

Blockstream tried to take over.  People figured it out.  This isn't really that complicated.
This is bullshit. If anyone is trying to take over the chain, and impose centralized cartel control then it is BTU + Jihan Wu.

Lauda is biggest joke on this forum.  

Jihan Wu isn't trying to limit capacity and introduce his custom solution that diverts fees into private enterprise.  Jihan Wu doesn't propose breaking the system in order to introduce a radically different alt on top of the old blockchain.  

Blockstream are fucking assholes trying to push their garbage SegWit and LN onto our good Bitcoin blockchain.  They are trying to take over.  8MB is tiny.  8MB is safe.  The only reason to prevent blocks going to 8MB is to make a need for LN.  

How did you become such a Core butt-licker?

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March 26, 2017, 09:25:13 AM
 #46

The reason why the price is going down is because we don't like the BU threat that will give the power over the blocksize to just 5 mining pool operators (or effectively 1 ASIC manufacturer.) I like bitcoin for it's decentralization properties, not because I trust Jihan Wu so much. I will never accept the idiotic idea called "emergent consensus."

Big blocks are great. I definitely want to see safely planned blocksize increase after Segwit. And if it won't be merged in the beginning in Bitcoin Core, I will just support another client, but emergent consensus is still a joke and Segwit is still the obvious way forward.
Others have said this before, and I think it is worth saying again. The support that BU is getting is not because the ideas behind BU are so great, it is because of the strong opposition to Core and SW.

I don't believe there are any SW features that are *needed* today/now, but are rather features that might be nice to have in the future. Larger blocks on the other hand is something that Bitcoin has needed for years now. I don't see a reason why SW should get implemented prior to larger blocks, especially after what happened with the HK agreement.
Exactly.

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March 26, 2017, 09:33:59 AM
 #47

Stop with this drama already, you guys are not being helpful at all, let Segwit/Ln done by expert programmers come first,

They are not expert programmers, they are take-over artists.  Nothing at all will prevent a LN inserted onto 8MB blocks.  If LN is so good, go build it.  Surely when heavy Bitcoin use comes in a few years when LN is ready even 8MB will be too small.

1MB limit only does one thing, drives and artificial need for LN.

Another major problem with LN is one-time low value transactions are not supported.  MOST low value transactions are not repeat-many type.  Rather, buying coffee is can be one time - never see you again transaction.  MOST small transactions will be one-time, never see you again.  LN is only good for low value when there is a repeat many relationship between two parties.  One-time low value is still not served.

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March 26, 2017, 09:44:09 AM
 #48

Alex.BTC you sure look like any other BU supporter to me. Newly created account  Roll Eyes

NOT a newly created account here, every inch a bigger blocks supporter.

I'm happy to support BU since they look to be the best chance at bigger blocks this year.  I was happy to support the simple short term fix that was Classic but BU is so much better as after it goes live the blocksize is "fixed" for good and we don't have to come back to this god awful debate in another couple of years.

Also I'm sick of SW being touted as this magical 2.1Mb fix. A "effective" 2.1Mb blocksize is only an estimate and only if all transactions convert to the new transaction format. That could take years.  This "effective blocksize" estimate has varied too, I'm sure it was 1.7Mb at one point.
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March 26, 2017, 09:56:49 AM
 #49




Another major problem with LN is one-time low value transactions are not supported.  MOST low value transactions are not repeat-many type.  Rather, buying coffee is can be one time - never see you again transaction.  MOST small transactions will be one-time, never see you again.  LN is only good for low value when there is a repeat many relationship between two parties.  One-time low value is still not served.

This is the real reason Satoshi walked away - because his vision for, and hard work towards, buying coffee with bitcoin (as stated in the whitepaper) was being threatened.

It's also the reason his coins have never moved.  No one sells a frappasushi mocha supreme.



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|   NO ICO. NO PREMINE. 
   X16RT GPU Mining. Fair distribution.  
|      The first Zerocoin-based Cryptocurrency      
   WITH ALWAYS-ON PRIVACY.  
|



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March 26, 2017, 10:03:32 AM
 #50

Once the HK agreement was signed, cold water was effectively thrown on the above movement and momentum because the community believed that Bitcoin would have real scaling solutions. Unfortunately, it turned out that the HK agreement was a farce, and every deadline in the HK agreement was missed, and all the promises made by Blockstream, and their devs were broken.

Yes it was obvious to everyone that Blockstream didn't take anyone else seriously.

Segwit offers the fees relief every BU supporter is asking for.

It doesn't, stop lying, it was clearly explained by franky1 why it doesn't.
Core assumes attackers are going to spam LN instead of the main chain, are you telling me you actually believe in that?

That alone tells me Core is either flat out lying or has absolutely no clue what they're doing.
Like I said don't treat your users like they are idiots.
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March 26, 2017, 10:13:54 AM
 #51


something


Ditching his bitcoins, but not his posts.

The lesson here is "don't use Roger Ver as a role model"



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veil|     PRIVACY    
     WITHOUT COMPROMISE.      
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|   NO ICO. NO PREMINE. 
   X16RT GPU Mining. Fair distribution.  
|      The first Zerocoin-based Cryptocurrency      
   WITH ALWAYS-ON PRIVACY.  
|



                   ▄▄████
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March 26, 2017, 12:58:19 PM
 #52

Would you please stop obsessing over me?  It's creepy.

I am not your mommy.

You do not get to determine how I spend my time, you do not get to restrict what I say or believe.  I don't force anyone to do anything. You will you make me cow down and obey you through threatening me by lying to the public to try to raise a mob of idiots against me, and even if you do manage to get me killed you will not stop bitcoin, you will not convert it to the centralized coin you seem to so desperately want.

So give it a break.





Dear Greg (and other Core developers),

Your response is deeply worrying me, I've decided to stop being just a spectator and register to make a comment, I hope this will help you and Core in some way.

Let me just begin by stating that I've been a long time Core supporter.

When Core released a new version of their Bitcoin software, I knew there was a certain level of quality control as well as forward thinking, a certain level of trust. It is because of that trust that I've never even considered looking at other alternatives, until now.

As a general fan and user of digital currency, I have no allegiance to Core/BU/XT/Miners or who ever, I don't feel personally attached to any party, I am just interested in Bitcoin's general progress, how Bitcoin will change the world for the better and make people's lives easier. I am also a realist, that means I will only make judgment base on practical matters instead of some arbitrary ideal moral high ground. So, everything I am posting here will be as neutral as you can get from a Bitcoin user.

With that out of the way, I must say, what happened in the past few months have really begun to change my perspective on Core.

For example the current BU fiasco, my understanding is that, a year ago some miners wanted 8MB blocks, some wanted 4MB, there was the usual struggle and bargaining between users/miners/nodes/developers, eventually the miners made a compromise, the "Hong Kong Agreement" was made, in which miners agreed to support Segwit and a 2MB block size increase, Adam Back signed the agreement, only to have you call them "dipshits" and broke the agreement afterwards. Source.

Because of that, now, a year later, the block chain has reached the 1MB block size limit, there is a huge tx backlog and as a result the tx fee has sky rocketed, users are affected and many have moved their money to alt coins. The miners have no choice but to choose the other best options: Bitcoin Unlimited.

So how can anyone honestly blame the miners and BU at this point? Seriously, even if you're paid to do so, deep down you must know this crisis was coming a year ago, and it was Core's responsibility to prepare for it.

Core and some of its fans (some are obviously paid) keep repeating miners and BU are evil because they are splitting the chain, sure you can say that, but seriously, what did you expect them to do. They already compromised and was ignored, now there is a tx backlog, Bitcoin is losing ground to competitions, Core is sitting on their asses holding the code hostage, breaking agreements, making insults, what else are the miners supposed to do. What did Core expect them to do?

I am not even defending miners/BU here, it's all about the block size limit, I am using a pure practical pov: If BU didn't exist, miners would have switched to something else without the 1M limit, simple as that.

Anyone who keep pointing their fingers at miners/BU is just trying to ignore the fact that Core did nothing about the 1MB limit for years.

The thing that really irritates me though, is that the block size limit wasn't even in the white paper, so why would Core hold the code hostage and refuse to increase the limit from 1MB? 1MB is such a small number, how can you even justify not increasing it?

The fact is many Core developers were openly supporting block size increase, but then became strongly opposed to it after they started working for Blockstream, now I don't care for all the conspiracy theories, but can you people just come out and explain why the sudden change of heart?

I find that really puzzling, it's like watching people who used to love pizza, suddenly hate pizza after they work for McDonalds, it just doesn't make sense. Mind you these Core members didn't just simply change their taste, they went from openly supporting raising block size limit to openly hating it with a passion.

Every explanations I've read from Core in the past few months, can basically translate to: "Our Segwit and LN will be soooooo great, who cares what people actually need right now, stop talking to me, I don't care, I already know what you want, if you don't agree with me, you're just stupid."

If Segwit and LN is so great, it'll naturally be adopted when there is a real demand. Core already had the market share and user trust, they already have the golden goose, so why do they have to kill the goose just to get the Segwit golden egg?

Core kept chanting how great Segwit and LN are, it may be true, but their actions tell me they are really insecure about them, otherwise they wouldn't need to artificially create a crisis just to force everyone to use it, I don't know about you, but I believe actions always speak louder than words.

Satoshi saw this tx backlog coming when he was designing Bitcoin, the block size limit isn't even in the white paper, the 1MB limit was only a temporary measure to stop spam in the beginning.

Satoshi's white paper clearly states that consensus should be made base on CPU power, not the number of nodes or IP addresses, not the number of developers, not online poll ratings, not social media, not forum polls, just CPU power. Satoshi made this decision not because he trusted the miners, but because he expected everyone to be selfish and act on their own interests, and of all the pieces in the ecosystem, hash power is the most difficult to fake and come by.

Miners are constantly in an arm race, hash rate never stop climbing, in this constant zero sum survival of the fittest, they get nothing the moment they stop competing, eventually miners become so focused on competing with each other, fine tuning every last knob to gain an hash rate advantage.

Regardless of what anyone else is doing, miners are always at maximum greed under the highest pressure, like a piano wire.

And that is the beauty of the Bitcoin design: All miners worry about is turning electricity into profit, they don't even care who is running the show, they ignore everyone else equally, because no amount of sucking up to users or developers will help their hash rate, but, miners do care about the stability of the ecosystem, because their profit depends on it. Given a choice they'd rather not make any decision that may shake the grounds and risk their profit.

So, in a world full of greed, lies, mistrusts, secret schemes, accusations and back stabs, miner's indiscriminately pure and focused self serving nature makes them the perfect center of balance. When nothing is reliable and nobody can be trusted, the simplest and purest form of greed becomes the constant.

As a digital currency, having consensus base on hash rate is why Bitcoin succeeded while other digital currency failed.

Miners generally don't care about what anyone else is doing, unless some other part of the system did something really short sighted (read: stupid) to tip the balance, and that is EXACTLY what Core did, miners tried to make compromises but were ignored and insulted, now the back log is full, miners are simply reacting in self defense.

Anyone who still blames the miners at this point, simply don't understand Bitcoin and why it succeeded.

Regardless of what you think of BU or Segwit, from a development point of view, Core simply failed, it failed because it ignored user's immediate and practical needs. They sat on their fat asses for a year, making promises after promises on some ideal vision, while there is a huge tx backlog on ground floor.

There are good and responsible Core members, but unfortunately a lot of Core members, especially the loudest ones, seem to be focused on excuses, launching personal attacks, making empty promises, making threats, playing victims, while ignoring practical and immediate user needs.

Greg, you may have a big ego, but you're not Bill Gates, and Bitcoin Core is not Microsoft Windows, block chain technology is young and there are competitions, Bitcoin users are mostly early adopters, they are sharp and they like trying new things, you can't play Bill Gates and use Microsoft tactics and still expect to win.

It is true that you currently have some status and spot light, you have your financial backings, you have your crew and echo chamber, you have your side chain patents, from your pov it really looks like you can do whatever you want, insult people, ignore users, and nobody can do anything about it.

But, in this field anything can happen in a year, so many new and shiny things have come and gone.

Pride goes before a fall, Microsoft, AOL, Yahoo all spent billions and failed because they ignored their users. Blockstream only have $75 million, they already made a big mistake, but for some reason they're not turning around, instead acting even cockier than Microsoft.

Judging from how you ignored Satoshi's email and only arrive back to the scene years after Satoshi has gone. I have reason to believe you're the type of person that lacks intuitive foresight.

So I am going to give you an advice: You're on the wrong side of history, but you still have a chance to turn around.

You can't treat your users like they are idiots, they might not find out the truth the first day, they might be fooled by censoring tactics, but eventually there will be a crack, and once people find out you've been lying to them, the trust is gone forever, they'll never trust you again.

Look at the Iraq war, the so called WMD, look at Powell, there were massive misinformation campaign to push people to war, emotions were high, lies mixed with half truths were flying around, SJWs and useful idiots were screaming on top of their lungs, so many people were convinced there were 100% right.

But a decade later, everyone just remember Powell as the guy who lied on TV holding a bottle of white powder.

Where do you think you will be in 10 years, Greg?

Are you going to be remembered as someone who made Bitcoin better, or someone who missed the Bitcoin boat twice?

Bitcoin Core team, this is for you: You had your chance and you failed, no matter who you think you are, you're on the wrong side of history and I don't believe in you people anymore.

And before you try to point fingers and accusing me of helping a side, I am telling you, I don't care who wins, I am tired of your BS and I am going to ditch Bitcoins until things clear.

I am not going to risk my hard earned money on a bunch of short sighted arrogant insecure emotional lying pricks and bitches stuck with messiah complexes who scream a lot and talk big but can't solve simple and practical problems right in front of their noses and screw things up for everyone then turn around and play victims like some entitled pre-adolescent brat asking for a kick in the face.

That's all.

Alex

Long read, but well worth it. Well said.      
    
Core had one job. And satoshi even spelled out what they should have done, 7 years ago, yet they failed to do it.  
Even after repeated reminders, they failed to do it.     
     
And despite their failure, they point fingers at those who are trying to rescue bitcoin and prevent bitcoin from crumbling under its own weight.       
     
these charts should tell you enough about how much bitcoin missed out on the cryptocurrency boom and how much better of it could have been.

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March 26, 2017, 01:02:18 PM
 #53

I suggest taking a moment to actually analyse the data available, rather than what you are currently engaged in.

For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the world, and lose his own soul?
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March 26, 2017, 01:17:53 PM
 #54


Segwit offers the fees relief every BU supporter is asking for.

It doesn't, stop lying, it was clearly explained by franky1 why it doesn't.
 

The "They sat on their fat asses for a year, making promises after promises on some ideal vision, while there is a huge tx backlog on ground floor" is really one
of THE main points here, and everytime that a core supporter says something like Ekonom is saying here, they are ignoring or sidestepping this critical point.

Even if Segwit was a panacea, so far its delivered zero scaling because it hasn't been activated!  Hello...mcFly... anybody home mcFly?
 
https://youtu.be/ilcRS5eUpwk

P.S. -- OP, can you paste the 'email from Satoshi to Greg' , I would like to see that.

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March 26, 2017, 01:19:54 PM
 #55

I would gladly use Bitcoin-core instead of BU if ONLY Bitcoin Core had a GUI setting for me to increase the maximum block size my full node is willing to accept AND a GUI setting to disable and not relay SegWit transactions. Then I would happily keep using Core because I have a certain level of trust towards the Core's codebase.

★★★ CryptoGraffiti.info ★★★ Hidden Messages Found from the Block Chain (Thread)
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March 26, 2017, 01:24:50 PM
 #56

I would gladly use Bitcoin-core instead of BU if ONLY Bitcoin Core had a GUI setting for me to increase the maximum block size my full node is willing to accept AND a GUI setting to disable and not relay SegWit transactions. Then I would happily keep using Core because I have a certain level of trust towards the Core's codebase.
https://bitcoinec.info/

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March 26, 2017, 01:25:55 PM
 #57

Thank you Alex! I couldn't agree more.
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March 26, 2017, 01:35:14 PM
 #58

Alex.BTC gets it! Thanks for the great post. I also couldn't agree more.

The current situation should have never happened. It's complete madness.
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March 26, 2017, 01:44:39 PM
 #59

I would gladly use Bitcoin-core instead of BU if ONLY Bitcoin Core had a GUI setting for me to increase the maximum block size my full node is willing to accept AND a GUI setting to disable and not relay SegWit transactions. Then I would happily keep using Core because I have a certain level of trust towards the Core's codebase.
https://bitcoinec.info/

Seems promising! THANKS MATE!

edit:
from their FAQ it seems they have segwit included in that implementation. I can't accept this. Perhaps I should make a branch of BitcoinEC that would allow user to disable SegWit relaying?

Also, I actually don't care about emergent consensus. I would just set my node to accept blocks smaller or equal to 4 MiB right now and later increase the limit manually. Also should the longest chain include blocks larger than what my node is willing to accept the wallet should alert me that I should consider increasing that limit.

★★★ CryptoGraffiti.info ★★★ Hidden Messages Found from the Block Chain (Thread)
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March 26, 2017, 01:49:53 PM
 #60

Segwit offers the fees relief every BU supporter is asking for.

It doesn't, stop lying, it was clearly explained by franky1 why it doesn't.
Core assumes attackers are going to spam LN instead of the main chain, are you telling me you actually believe in that?

Nonsense.

The whales want the fees to be too high on the main chain for you peons to use and they have their reason for that which you wouldn't understand, so they don't even bother to tell you.

But the fact is, you will not have any choice but to follow the decision of the whales.

So just keep crying in your milk, or perhaps consider another possible future option.

If you want to gain insight, read the following thread:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1837136.msg18339801#msg18339801

That alone tells me Core is either flat out lying or has absolutely no clue what they're doing.

The whales know what they are doing and why.

Like I said don't treat your users like they are idiots.

Idiots can't be treated as anything other than what they are. Again the above linked thread is available for those who want to learn.
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