Bitcoin Forum
June 21, 2018, 06:55:31 AM *
News: Latest stable version of Bitcoin Core: 0.16.1  [Torrent]. (New!)
 
   Home   Help Search Donate Login Register  
Pages: [1] 2 3 »  All
  Print  
Author Topic: So we tried out Lightning tonight at ROOM77  (Read 2353 times)
joecooin
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 363
Merit: 250


View Profile WWW
April 02, 2017, 03:23:02 AM
 #1

For many years now we have been accepting Bitcoin (with zero confirmations and directly, not through Bitpay) at our bar/restaurant in Berlin. Today we have deployed a testnet lightning node and accept testnet coins via the lightning network from a few customers to get a glimpse into the future. And that future looks shining bright!

- No more waiting for the customer's transaction being broadcasted, transactions arrive in milliseconds, not seconds (or sometimes minutes in case the customer uses coinbase or another bank wallet).
- No more looking out for double spend attacks. Not even Peter Todd is going to RBF us on LN.
- No more confusion during times of malleabillity attacks. Transaction malleabillity is a thing of the past.
- Massively advanced privacy for us as well as our customers as only we can see the transactions on our payment channel.
- And we will finally be able to offer free-of-cost payments to our customers.

As a merchant I can tell you that every merchant on the planet wants this stuff. It is like after all these years Bitcoin shows that with LN it can live up to its promises in regards to efficiency, speed, irreversibility and privacy no matter how many people will use it.

Thanks to all the developers making this possible!

edit: pics http://imgur.com/a/64iwK

reddit thread: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/62uw23/lightning_network_is_working_room77_is_accepting/

1529564131
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1529564131

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1529564131
Reply with quote  #2

1529564131
Report to moderator
1529564131
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1529564131

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1529564131
Reply with quote  #2

1529564131
Report to moderator
1529564131
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1529564131

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1529564131
Reply with quote  #2

1529564131
Report to moderator
The World's Betting Exchange

Bet with play money. Win real Bitcoin. 5BTC Prize Fund for World Cup 2018.

Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction. Advertise here.
1529564131
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1529564131

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1529564131
Reply with quote  #2

1529564131
Report to moderator
1529564131
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1529564131

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1529564131
Reply with quote  #2

1529564131
Report to moderator
1529564131
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1529564131

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1529564131
Reply with quote  #2

1529564131
Report to moderator
kiklo
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1092
Merit: 1000



View Profile
April 02, 2017, 07:36:16 AM
 #2

For many years now we have been accepting Bitcoin (with zero confirmations and directly, not through Bitpay) at our bar/restaurant in Berlin. Today we have deployed a testnet lightning node and accept testnet coins via the lightning network from a few customers to get a glimpse into the future. And that future looks shining bright!

- No more waiting for the customer's transaction being broadcasted, transactions arrive in milliseconds, not seconds (or sometimes minutes in case the customer uses coinbase or another bank wallet).
- No more looking out for double spend attacks. Not even Peter Todd is going to RBF us on LN.
- No more confusion during times of malleabillity attacks. Transaction malleabillity is a thing of the past.
- Massively advanced privacy for us as well as our customers as only we can see the transactions on our payment channel.
- And we will finally be able to offer free-of-cost payments to our customers.

As a merchant I can tell you that every merchant on the planet wants this stuff. It is like after all these years Bitcoin shows that with LN it can live up to its promises in regards to efficiency, speed, irreversibility and privacy no matter how many people will use it.

Thanks to all the developers making this possible!

edit: pics http://imgur.com/a/64iwK

reddit thread: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/62uw23/lightning_network_is_working_room77_is_accepting/

Hmm,

Did you record your Customers Names & Address when you accepted Zero Confirmations, in case they ever used a DoubleSpend trick on you?
(It is quite easy to doublespend on a Zero Confirmation.)

LN is not safe at all until segwit is activated, so you have to trust all of your LN Clients Completely.
Counterfeiting and stealing BTC thru LN is not only a possibility but a probability.

Little word of warning , not waiting the required confirmations, is like playing Russian roulette , it is not a matter of if but When!

Smarter move on your Part would be using a Gift Card System , that people can fund with BTC instead of taking BTC directly.

 Cool

FYI:
https://merchant.gyft.com/
All of the advantages of Offchain transactions without the shenanigans of the LN/Banking Cartels. Wink
Dude.Lebowski
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 129
Merit: 100


View Profile
April 02, 2017, 09:00:50 AM
 #3

For many years now we have been accepting Bitcoin (with zero confirmations and directly, not through Bitpay) at our bar/restaurant in Berlin. Today we have deployed a testnet lightning node and accept testnet coins via the lightning network from a few customers to get a glimpse into the future. And that future looks shining bright!

- No more waiting for the customer's transaction being broadcasted, transactions arrive in milliseconds, not seconds (or sometimes minutes in case the customer uses coinbase or another bank wallet).
- No more looking out for double spend attacks. Not even Peter Todd is going to RBF us on LN.
- No more confusion during times of malleabillity attacks. Transaction malleabillity is a thing of the past.
- Massively advanced privacy for us as well as our customers as only we can see the transactions on our payment channel.
- And we will finally be able to offer free-of-cost payments to our customers.

As a merchant I can tell you that every merchant on the planet wants this stuff. It is like after all these years Bitcoin shows that with LN it can live up to its promises in regards to efficiency, speed, irreversibility and privacy no matter how many people will use it.

Thanks to all the developers making this possible!

edit: pics http://imgur.com/a/64iwK



reddit thread: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/62uw23/lightning_network_is_working_room77_is_accepting/

I'm not sure how much you talked to your customers during beer but I'm interested which wallet software they used for the LN/test transaction

Okay. The old man told me to take any rug in the house.
Lauda
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1890
Merit: 1558


GUNBOT Licenses -15% with ref. code 'GrumpyKitty'


View Profile WWW
April 02, 2017, 09:14:31 AM
 #4

LN is not safe at all until segwit is activated, so you have to trust all of your LN Clients Completely.
Testnet has Segwit activated. Read the thread.

Counterfeiting and stealing BTC thru LN is not only a possibility but a probability.
No.

.FORTUNE.JACK.
      ▄▄███████▄▄
   ▄████▀▀ ▄ ██████▄
  ████ ▄▄███ ████████
 █████▌▐███▌ ▀▄ ▀█████
███████▄██▀▀▀▀▄████████
█████▀▄▄▄▄█████████████
████▄▄▄▄ █████████████
 ██████▌ ███▀████████
  ███████▄▀▄████████
   ▀█████▀▀███████▀
      ▀▀██████▀▀
         
         █
...FortuneJack.com                                             
...THE BIGGEST BITCOIN GAMBLING SITE
       ▄▄█████████▄▄
    ▄█████████████████▄
  ▄█████████████████████▄
 ▄██
█████████▀███████████▄
██████████▀   ▀██████████
█████████▀       ▀█████████
████████           ████████
████████▄   ▄ ▄   ▄████████
██████████▀   ▀██████████
 ▀██
█████████████████████▀
  ▀██
███████████████████▀
    ▀█████████████████▀
       ▀▀█████████▀▀
#JACKMATE
WIN 1 BTC
▄█████████████████████████▄
███████████████████████████
███████████████████████████
██████████▀█████▀██████████
███████▀░░▀░░░░░▀░░▀███████
██████▌░░░░░░░░░░░░░▐██████
██████░░░░██░░░██░░░░██████
█████▌░░░░▀▀░░░▀▀░░░░▐█████
██████▄░░▄▄▄░░░▄▄▄░░▄██████
████████▄▄███████▄▄████████

███████████████████████████
███████████████████████████
▀█████████████████████████▀
Dorky
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 392
Merit: 250


Best IoT Platform Based on Blockchain


View Profile
April 02, 2017, 09:23:23 AM
 #5

Is there any real case of double spending in LN so far?


     
     ██
    ███
  █ ███
 ██ ███
 ██ ███
 ██ ███
 ██ ███
 ██ ███
 ██ ███
 █  ██
   



         ▄▄▄██████████▄▄▄
      ▄████████████████████▄
    ▄████████████████████████▄
   █████▀▀▀▀▀▀███████▀▀▀▀▀▀████
  ██████      ███████      █████
 █████████▌   ███████   █████████
▐█████████▌   ███████   █████████▌
████████                   ███████
▐███████▄▄▄   ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄   ▄▄▄██████▌
 ██████████   ███████   █████████
  ██████▀▀▀   ███████   ▀▀▀█████
   █████      ███████      ████
    ▀████████████████████████▀
      ▀████████████████████▀
         ▀▀▀██████████▀▀▀


 
 ▄▄         ▄▄             ▄▄
▐██▌       ▐██▌           ███▌
▐██▌       ▐██▌     ▄▄▄▄▄▄███▌      ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄     ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄
▐██▌       ▐██▌   ▄██████████▌   ▄███████████   ▄██████████
▐█████████████▌  ███▀     ▐██▌  ▐███▀     ███  ▐███▀
▐██▌       ▐██▌ ▐██▌      ▐██▌  ███▌      ███  ███▌
▐██▌       ▐██▌  ███▄     ▐██▌  ▐███▄     ███  ▐███▄
▐██▌       ▐██▌   ▀██████████▌   ▀██████  ███   ▀██████████
▀▀         ▀▀       ▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀       ▀▀▀▀  ▀▀▀      ▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀


██
███
███
███ ██
███ ██
███ ██
███ ██
███ ██
███ ██
 ██ 
  █

██    Whitepaper    ██
.
██████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████
.
FacebookTwitterBitcointalk
Lauda
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1890
Merit: 1558


GUNBOT Licenses -15% with ref. code 'GrumpyKitty'


View Profile WWW
April 02, 2017, 09:25:34 AM
 #6

Is there any real case of double spending in LN so far?
No. Ignore the fear mongering. If there are certain risks, they will be clearly explained and publicly known.

.FORTUNE.JACK.
      ▄▄███████▄▄
   ▄████▀▀ ▄ ██████▄
  ████ ▄▄███ ████████
 █████▌▐███▌ ▀▄ ▀█████
███████▄██▀▀▀▀▄████████
█████▀▄▄▄▄█████████████
████▄▄▄▄ █████████████
 ██████▌ ███▀████████
  ███████▄▀▄████████
   ▀█████▀▀███████▀
      ▀▀██████▀▀
         
         █
...FortuneJack.com                                             
...THE BIGGEST BITCOIN GAMBLING SITE
       ▄▄█████████▄▄
    ▄█████████████████▄
  ▄█████████████████████▄
 ▄██
█████████▀███████████▄
██████████▀   ▀██████████
█████████▀       ▀█████████
████████           ████████
████████▄   ▄ ▄   ▄████████
██████████▀   ▀██████████
 ▀██
█████████████████████▀
  ▀██
███████████████████▀
    ▀█████████████████▀
       ▀▀█████████▀▀
#JACKMATE
WIN 1 BTC
▄█████████████████████████▄
███████████████████████████
███████████████████████████
██████████▀█████▀██████████
███████▀░░▀░░░░░▀░░▀███████
██████▌░░░░░░░░░░░░░▐██████
██████░░░░██░░░██░░░░██████
█████▌░░░░▀▀░░░▀▀░░░░▐█████
██████▄░░▄▄▄░░░▄▄▄░░▄██████
████████▄▄███████▄▄████████

███████████████████████████
███████████████████████████
▀█████████████████████████▀
franky1
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2086
Merit: 1117



View Profile
April 02, 2017, 12:48:49 PM
 #7

Is there any real case of double spending in LN so far?
No. Ignore the fear mongering. If there are certain risks, they will be clearly explained and publicly known.

there are risks

the address re-use signing (sideattack) risk
the blackmail to invoke a revoke (chargeback fraud)
the risk that the close LN tx wont confirm(ONCHAIN fee locked into the values hours,days,weeks, before its ever broadcast)
the particiants of a multihop dont broadcast in the right order causing a few revokes.

hense those using LN are told to only use around ~$60 just to be safe.

remember its not a lock in forever utility for everyone to throw their entire hoards in.
and no one can predict what they will want to buy months in advance so expect more channel closing and openings than the utopian sales pitch

forget the utopian sales pitch of LN forever onchain never. and think LN voluntary side service. bitcoin forever

I DO NOT TRADE OR ACT AS ESCROW ON THIS FORUM EVER.
Don't take any information given on this forum on face value. Please do your own due diligence & respect what is written here as both opinion & information gleaned from experience. If you wish to seek legal FACTUAL advice, then seek the guidance of a LEGAL specialist.
Qartada
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 574
Merit: 500


BlockWake.com Bitcoin Doubler


View Profile WWW
April 02, 2017, 12:53:11 PM
 #8

Is there any real case of double spending in LN so far?
No. Ignore the fear mongering. If there are certain risks, they will be clearly explained and publicly known.

there are risks

the address re-use signing (sideattack) risk
the blackmail to invoke a revoke (chargeback fraud)
the risk that the close LN tx wont confirm(ONCHAIN fee locked into the values hours,days,weeks, before its ever broadcast)
the particiants of a multihop dont broadcast in the right order causing a few revokes.

hense those using LN are told to only use around ~$60 just to be safe.

remember its not a lock in forever utility for everyone to throw their entire hoards in.
and no one can predict what they will want to buy months in advance so expect more channel closing and openings than the utopian sales pitch
The Lightning Network is in early days and is a good concept.  Fortunately, it's not the whole of Core's solution and is not SegWit.  Unfortunately, BUgcoin actually is the whole solution.

franky1
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2086
Merit: 1117



View Profile
April 02, 2017, 12:56:37 PM
 #9

The Lightning Network is in early days and is a good concept.  Fortunately, it's not the whole of Core's solution and is not SegWit.  Unfortunately, BUgcoin actually is the whole solution.

lol
care to try reading beyond reddit.. you might learn more

I DO NOT TRADE OR ACT AS ESCROW ON THIS FORUM EVER.
Don't take any information given on this forum on face value. Please do your own due diligence & respect what is written here as both opinion & information gleaned from experience. If you wish to seek legal FACTUAL advice, then seek the guidance of a LEGAL specialist.
Carlton Banks
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2044
Merit: 1197



View Profile
April 02, 2017, 03:19:02 PM
 #10

I think the fact that Lightning involves more trust (some attacks can be performed using Lightning's characteristics) is actually a good fit for its best purpose: bricks and mortar businesses, just like Room77.

The customers that go to Room77 all the time know the people working there, and the staff will know those customers. It's bad business to attack your own regular customers, and the clientele will run out of places to go shopping if they keep attempting attacks against places with good merchandise. So it's a little over-blown to say that Lightning is a big risk.

Online, it's a little different. I suspect middlemen Lightning processors, the infamous hubs, will be more popular on-line, especially with new or small businesses. But the centralisation criticism is overblown here too, there won't be any political or regulatory barriers to operating a hub style node, all you need is clients and cashflow. Competition amongst Lightning nodes should, therefore, be strong. (and of course, on-chain transactions will always a better option the higher the stakes are, no-one will be buying cars, houses, or making business deals on the Lightning network)

Vires in numeris
manselr
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 840
Merit: 1000

ICO appreciator


View Profile
April 02, 2017, 03:28:20 PM
 #11

Good to see real progress being made in the middle of this FUD storm and the buggy unlimited ridiculousness. If only we could finally get segwit activated to bring bitcoin to the next level... sooner or later we will tho. If the remaining miners don't get with the program UASF will kick in.
ETFbitcoin
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1358
Merit: 1047

★Adconity.com★


View Profile
April 02, 2017, 03:31:32 PM
 #12

LN is great idea if users have trust over the operator, but i think it won't work with the nature of bitcoin and many bitcoiner won't risk their coins/privacy for it.
It only works if the operator send the transaction to onchain regularly and can keep user privacy, otherwise the risks mentioned by other users will become true.

Also, some bitcoiner fear LN because company/services will force their users use LN. I still think on-chain transaction better option than LN in most condition.


                                      ▄._       
                                       ▀█████████▀ 
                                     ,▄▓████████   
                                ╓▄▓███████████▀   
                           ╓▄▓███████▀╙.  ▀█     
                      ▄▄▓███████▀╙▄▄▄▄███         
                 ▄▄▓███████▀╙▄,  ▓███████         
           .▄▄▓██████▀▀╙▄▄▓████▌ ████████         
      .▄▄███████▀▀╙▄▄  ▐███████▌ ████████         
 .▄▄███████▀▀ ▐▄▄▓████ ▐███████▌ ████████         
╙█████▀▀▐▄▄▓  ████████ ▐███████▌ ████████         
 ╙▀ ▄▄▓█████  ████████ ▐███████▌ ████████         
    ████████  ████████ ▐███████▌ ████████         
    ████████  ████████ ▐███████▌ ████████             
scox
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 149
Merit: 100


View Profile
April 02, 2017, 03:47:50 PM
 #13

Heya, I'll be in berlin in around 2 months. Expecting to buy a round for all to test your btc merchant on high volumes lol.
See you then!
Carlton Banks
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2044
Merit: 1197



View Profile
April 02, 2017, 04:49:21 PM
 #14

LN is great idea if users have trust over the operator, but i think it won't work with the nature of bitcoin and many bitcoiner won't risk their coins/privacy for it.

Privacy is enhanced hugely using Lightning.


It only works if the operator send the transaction to onchain regularly and can keep user privacy, otherwise the risks mentioned by other users will become true.


No it doesn't. BTC can remain in Lightning channels forever in cases where participants don't force one another to settle on-chain.

Also, some bitcoiner fear LN because company/services will force their users use LN. I still think on-chain transaction better option than LN in most condition.

No-one can force you to use it, and given that your fears are uninformed FUD, you're forgetting about the benefits, and concentrating solely on imaginary downsides.

Explain why on-chain is "better in most conditions", and please learn how Lightning works before you do so

Vires in numeris
QuestionAuthority
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1918
Merit: 1307


You lead and I'll watch you walk away.


View Profile
April 02, 2017, 05:12:58 PM
 #15

Ripple is ready to go and way past testing, why not use it instead? Besides, I trust Stefan Thomas (ripple) much more than the town crier for the failed Bitcoin Foundation pack of thieving liars.

stdset
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 573
Merit: 500



View Profile
April 02, 2017, 05:25:04 PM
 #16

Ripple is ready to go and way past testing, why not use it instead? Besides, I trust Stefan Thomas (ripple) much more than the town crier for the failed Bitcoin Foundation pack of thieving liars.
The last time I read about Ripple it was all about trust. List of nodes that you trust to honestly maintain the ledger, without them investing PoW nor having a stake in the system. IOUs that you trust. It's quite the opposite to what cryptocurrencies are trying to achieve: minimize trust as much as possible. Did everything change since then?

jonald_fyookball
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1302
Merit: 1002


Core dev leaves me neg feedback #abuse #political


View Profile
April 02, 2017, 05:27:24 PM
 #17

Ripple is not decentralized trustless, so not a 'real crypto'

spartacusrex
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 648
Merit: 505



View Profile
April 02, 2017, 06:33:57 PM
 #18

For many years now we have been accepting Bitcoin (with zero confirmations and directly, not through Bitpay) at our bar/restaurant in Berlin. Today we have deployed a testnet lightning node and accept testnet coins via the lightning network from a few customers to get a glimpse into the future. And that future looks shining bright!

- No more waiting for the customer's transaction being broadcasted, transactions arrive in milliseconds, not seconds (or sometimes minutes in case the customer uses coinbase or another bank wallet).
- No more looking out for double spend attacks. Not even Peter Todd is going to RBF us on LN.
- No more confusion during times of malleabillity attacks. Transaction malleabillity is a thing of the past.
- Massively advanced privacy for us as well as our customers as only we can see the transactions on our payment channel.
- And we will finally be able to offer free-of-cost payments to our customers.

As a merchant I can tell you that every merchant on the planet wants this stuff. It is like after all these years Bitcoin shows that with LN it can live up to its promises in regards to efficiency, speed, irreversibility and privacy no matter how many people will use it.

Thanks to all the developers making this possible!

edit: pics http://imgur.com/a/64iwK

reddit thread: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/62uw23/lightning_network_is_working_room77_is_accepting/

Wow..

Amazing! Congratulations for ACTUALLY sorting it out.

Well played Sir.
...

Ripple is not decentralized trustless, so not a 'real crypto'

Hello .. is that you Johnny.. ?  Wink

spartacusrex
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 648
Merit: 505



View Profile
April 02, 2017, 06:51:29 PM
 #19

Gonna' have to add.. Since this is really VERY cool..

I'm seeing a scenario play out in slow motion :

So your bar runs a LN node.

Your customers have LN payment channels with you, on your LN node.

They can now pay you instantly with BTC, and you can refund them instantly. Either of you can cash out on chain at any time.

...Now.

Another bar starts an LN node.

Your node and the other node communicate.

Your customers can now pay at ANY bar with an LN node connected to yours, and VICE VERSA.. so their customers can spend at yours.

All instantly. Off chain. Trustless. With BTC.

.. it's pretty awesome. ( Come on Franky.. even you must be a little impressed..?)

..

( Just thinking about Vegas, and all those casinos.. )



franky1
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2086
Merit: 1117



View Profile
April 02, 2017, 08:04:34 PM
 #20

.. it's pretty awesome. ( Come on Franky.. even you must be a little impressed..?)
..
( Just thinking about Vegas, and all those casinos.. )

never had issues with LN.. AS A VOLUNTARTY SIDE SERVICE
but i also see passed the utopia


I DO NOT TRADE OR ACT AS ESCROW ON THIS FORUM EVER.
Don't take any information given on this forum on face value. Please do your own due diligence & respect what is written here as both opinion & information gleaned from experience. If you wish to seek legal FACTUAL advice, then seek the guidance of a LEGAL specialist.
Pages: [1] 2 3 »  All
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Sponsored by , a Bitcoin-accepting VPN.
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!