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Author Topic: Why Are You Sold On Bitcoins?  (Read 5385 times)
neofutur
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November 21, 2010, 12:59:35 PM
 #21

 I was interested in alternative currencies ( well I m interested il all kinds of alternatives ), but never found one that seemed to be a good investment; bitcoins have all the important points for me :

* seems well enough implemented and secure
* Its made to be worldwide, not tied to a town or country
* can be converted to real $
* have an active and growing community
* is already pretty big and developped, and it seems it ll continue growing
* begins to be accepted for web services , games and more

 I wont say bitcoins have xx % chance to make it, taking the world is never easy, but it seems the best alternative to try for anyone interested in alternative currencies.

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em3rgentOrdr
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November 21, 2010, 01:05:44 PM
 #22

Why are you sold on bitcoins?

I've lost trust with humans.  I'm tired of having to "trust" some single entity, be it a bank or a government, with my money.  I do, however, trust mathematics and the proofs to cryptographic computational complexity.  Smiley

"We will not find a solution to political problems in cryptography, but we can win a major battle in the arms race and gain a new territory of freedom for several years.

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November 21, 2010, 02:08:49 PM
 #23


I'm also concerned about government banning it.  Possibly one way to fly under the radar of government long enough to get established in the mainstream and thus make it politically expensive for government to intervene is to blah blah blah, blah blah, blah blah.


Remember that by writing exactly this sentence this is becoming public information... enabling governments to read this and step in earlier..
Better not to write about this in open forums (my opinion..)

Okay I've edited mine, now you have to edit yours!

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November 21, 2010, 02:20:54 PM
 #24

done...

>15years analysis experience

Always do your own due diligence & consult your financial advisor. Never invest unless you can afford to lose your entire investment.

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November 21, 2010, 02:21:09 PM
 #25

I'm originally from the Slashdot crowd,  I downloaded the program and didn't really understand how it worked at first.  About a month later (after siting at the back of my mind), I downloaded the source code and "bitcoin.pdf", and went through it much more thoroughly,  gaining a (somewhat deep), understanding of how bitcoin works.

Overall as a Laissez-faire Capitalist I'm convinced that bitcoin (or something better) is immensely important for the future.

Now bitcoin, is a bit of a passion, I hope to gain a decent amount of coins before the price skyrockets, and do everything I can to help it skyrocket.

One off NP-Hard.
em3rgentOrdr
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November 21, 2010, 03:36:27 PM
 #26


I'm also concerned about government banning it.  Possibly one way to fly under the radar of government long enough to get established in the mainstream and thus make it politically expensive for government to intervene is to blah blah blah, blah blah, blah blah.


Remember that by writing exactly this sentence this is becoming public information... enabling governments to read this and step in earlier..
Better not to write about this in open forums (my opinion..)

Okay I've edited mine, now you have to edit yours!

OMG!!!!  OMG!!!  I never realized that the government is reading my forum posts!!!!  NOOO!!!!  I'm going to have to delete all my posts!!!!   EGAD!  But I can't delete my posts!!!

Seriously, folks.  Focus on liberating minds.  Ignore the government.

"We will not find a solution to political problems in cryptography, but we can win a major battle in the arms race and gain a new territory of freedom for several years.

Governments are good at cutting off the heads of a centrally controlled networks, but pure P2P networks are holding their own."
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November 21, 2010, 04:12:54 PM
 #27

I'm originally from the Slashdot crowd,  I downloaded the program and didn't really understand how it worked at first.

The same thing happened to me.

The idea that the address where to send the money should be different every time did not fit in my head.

I think theese thing is necessary to highlight particularly in the adverts about bitcoin.

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hugolp
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November 21, 2010, 04:23:38 PM
 #28

Bitcoin is the perfect agorist currency.
mikegogulski
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November 21, 2010, 06:13:29 PM
 #29

Bitcoin is the perfect agorist currency.

I lean the same way, though this is far from proven. Some limitations I can think of:

  • A substantial majority of humans lack computers and/or internet access.
  • Bitcoin might be out-competed by something else in the works (Truledger, Loom)
  • Bitcoin might be out-competed by something not yet invented
  • The entire model might be flawed
  • Space aliens could destroy the intertube
  • etc...

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joeydangerous
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November 21, 2010, 06:36:14 PM
 #30

i've been interested in alternate currencies for about a year and half now, since I completely lost faith in the dollar. When i discovered bitcoin i got really excited about it, it blew my mind! I'm not a hacker or programmer type, so it took a lot of reading to get an understanding of it, but i think it was worth it. as long as it's not made illegal to trade, i think bitcoin will become a widely accepted currency for sure. Also, it really needs to be made more user-friendly so more people like me, or with even less computer knowledge than me, can use it. It seems like there are some brilliant people involved so i think it will happen.
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November 21, 2010, 07:10:11 PM
 #31

Bitcoin is the perfect agorist currency.

I lean the same way, though this is far from proven. Some limitations I can think of:

  • A substantial majority of humans lack computers and/or internet access.
  • Bitcoin might be out-competed by something else in the works (Truledger, Loom)
  • Bitcoin might be out-competed by something not yet invented
  • The entire model might be flawed
  • Space aliens could destroy the intertube
  • etc...

There have been some threads that have suggested a way to at least compensate for the fact that Bitcoins is an electronic currency, such as this one:

http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1514.0

If you have somebody you can trust which is printing out Bitcoin notes in some fashion, it can de-couple the currency from the network and computers.  I would see this most useful in a situation like a farmer's market or small trade group of some kind, but it could also be used in 3rd world countries where computer access is considerably more limited.  The stability of Bitcoins compared to currencies in 3rd world countries is something I think might be appealing enough that some smaller countries might even accept Bitcoins perhaps as a national currency, especially if they could "stick it to the man" in terms of Euros and Dollars.

1FLK3uUT3Vup5JtkGJVXKHAoS3AZWPcKdv
Stephen Gornick
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November 21, 2010, 08:33:16 PM
 #32

Bitcoin is the perfect agorist currency.

I lean the same way, though this is far from proven. Some limitations I can think of:

  • A substantial majority of humans lack computers and/or internet access.
  • Bitcoin might be out-competed by something else in the works (Truledger, Loom)
  • Bitcoin might be out-competed by something not yet invented
  • The entire model might be flawed
  • Space aliens could destroy the intertube
  • etc...

Why won't Bitcon be cloned be anyone else? New genesis block, ... voila, another competing currency,right?

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November 21, 2010, 08:41:10 PM
 #33

Bitcoin is the perfect agorist currency.

I lean the same way, though this is far from proven. Some limitations I can think of:

  • A substantial majority of humans lack computers and/or internet access.
  • Bitcoin might be out-competed by something else in the works (Truledger, Loom)
  • Bitcoin might be out-competed by something not yet invented
  • The entire model might be flawed
  • Space aliens could destroy the intertube
  • etc...

Why won't Bitcon be cloned be anyone else? New genesis block, ... voila, another competing currency,right?


So you discover bitcoin and the new competitor, one has merchants and exchanges and developers and a community, and the other is the same thing, but without those good things. Which do you choose?

Certainly something could displace bitcoin, but it will have to be better in some way, not the same thing two years younger.

Play Bitcoin Poker at sealswithclubs.eu. We're active and open to everyone.
em3rgentOrdr
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November 21, 2010, 10:50:27 PM
 #34

Bitcoin is the perfect agorist currency.

I lean the same way, though this is far from proven. Some limitations I can think of:

  • A substantial majority of humans lack computers and/or internet access.
  • Bitcoin might be out-competed by something else in the works (Truledger, Loom)
  • Bitcoin might be out-competed by something not yet invented
  • The entire model might be flawed
  • Space aliens could destroy the intertube
  • etc...

Glad to see that the world-famous "stateless ex-American" Mike Gogulski is using bitcoin!  Just sent a donation to your website nostate.com. 

Those are all fair concerns.  Of course, the best solution (as always) is diversification, since each method (physical gold, electronic gold, loom, barter, state fiat paper, bitcoin, public key transaction processor, etc.) all have their relative benefits/weaknesses.

"We will not find a solution to political problems in cryptography, but we can win a major battle in the arms race and gain a new territory of freedom for several years.

Governments are good at cutting off the heads of a centrally controlled networks, but pure P2P networks are holding their own."
Lexington
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November 22, 2010, 01:05:56 AM
 #35

I think that bitcoins will work beautifully as a transactional currency.  I do not see people using them for savings.

However, I consider the seperation of transaction/saving as a great thing.  People can use bitcoins to do buisness and then convert into gold for saving.  This would create a nearly perfect monetary system.  Untouchable by governments and reliable through the centuries.

One of the main weaknesses of fiat dollars is that they are used for transaction and saving.  Dollar users are 100% tied to the whims of the central bank.
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November 22, 2010, 02:53:43 AM
 #36

I think that bitcoins will work beautifully as a transactional currency.  I do not see people using them for savings.

Bitcoin is a better store of value than any fiat currency in the world, but everything is relative.  Good money is chased out of the market by not-so-good money, so your Bitcoin/gold duality theorem might be correct.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
mikegogulski
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November 22, 2010, 02:55:24 AM
 #37

@RHorning: The discussion you point to is very interesting. I am not at all certain I understand all of it. My related reservation is around latency. If a meatspace vendor is going to sell me something for BTC, right now they face a confirmation latency on the order of 10-20 minutes if they require at least one confirmation in the subsequent block. If they require zero confirmations it's 0-10 minutes. When I walk into a store and buy a pack of cigarettes, the equivalent "confirmation" comes by the clerk (cursorily) examining my banknotes and coins, and reaching an instant genuine/counterfeit decision. I wouldn't tolerate a 0-10 minute wait to get my fix, let alone a 10-20 minute wait. At the same time, maybe I'd *like* to adapt to a better system, so who knows. (Yes, I'm probably late to the game and this has already been addressed someplace)

@sgornick: You can bet your ass the moment I hear of someone else initiating another Bitcoin system based on a new genesis block that I'm going to start mining that one, too. Fork, baby, fork!

@em3rg3ntOrder: Aw schucks, ya know me already? Smiley Thanks for the contrib Smiley And you're right of course in your qualifications. What I've been breathlessly anticipating, though, is the moment of realization that Bitcoin or a system very much like it definitely will out-compete, displace and render obsolete fiat paper. I'd love to be sold on that point.




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Lexington
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November 22, 2010, 03:40:58 AM
 #38

I think that bitcoins will work beautifully as a transactional currency.  I do not see people using them for savings.

Bitcoin is a better store of value than any fiat currency in the world, but everything is relative.  Good money is chased out of the market by not-so-good money, so your Bitcoin/gold duality theorem might be correct.

Gold is no longer money and it should remain that way.  People just need to realize that money exists only in the mind, to make transactions fair.  Money is the human concept of value as it relates to the real world.  Gold is payment in full by virtue of it's existance in the real material world (any physical object can be payment in full but gold is best if you want to store value for the future).  Gold should never be linked to the imaginary in any way.  Bitcoins are the best representation of the imaginary money system because they are only a small step away from being imaginary.  They have just enough structure to ensure a constant supply (stability).

No money supply can ever be permanently stable.  All systems can be gamed.  But, if you save in gold then the failue of money can never hurt you.  If bitcoins fail someday then the bitcoin savers will be burned just as bad as the dollar savers will be.  The gold savers will just shrug and convert some of their saving gold into whatever comes along next as money.
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November 22, 2010, 03:44:19 AM
 #39

I should add that bitcoin's characteristics make it capable of outlasting any money system ever invented.  Once the adoption group is large enough, they will remain stable for longer than gold money or fiat money ever could.
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November 22, 2010, 04:45:56 AM
 #40


Gold is no longer money and it should remain that way.

Gold has been money for nearly all of recorded human history, and remains so; despite the desires of governments.  If that were not so, it wouldn't be worth much more than lead, and certainly less than many other heavy elements.  Uranium, for example is much more dangerous and capital intensive to mine and refine than gold, yet has recently been described as being in a bubble rally for breaking $60 per pound.  Gold's current spot price reflects it's position as an ideal, physical money.  That has never not been so.  The primary advantage that Bitcoin holds over gold as a trade currency is that 1) you can't transfer it over the Internet and 2) if you could it would still impose a transit overhead well beyond a transaction fee.

If you are attending the University of Kentucky as an Economics student and you have been taught that gold isn't money, you should consider transferring before you learn some more falsehoods that are difficult to overcome.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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