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Author Topic: Soooo, how about that Bitmain?  (Read 2601 times)
VentMine
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April 06, 2017, 05:20:36 AM
 #1

I don't want to jump the gun, I would certainly like to see Jihan / Bitmain comment, but this covert ASICBOOST fiasco has made me completely distrust Bitmain and it's entire brand.

Hey, millionaires around here(and I'm sure there's many) - maybe get together and build some industrial ASIC's for us little guys who want a fair chance? I'll pay a premium, anything to avoid these criminals

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April 07, 2017, 08:31:06 AM
 #2

I would like to see how some talented guy will develop a hack which will enable this "asic boost" an all Bitmain HW all around the world...

I will not become a millionaire because of that hack, I'd just like to see what will happen then... And what will Bitmain say...

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Пpoфeccиoнaльнo зaнимaюcь paзвёpтывaниeм фepм (ASIC, GPU, BURST), oбopyдoвaниeм пoмeщeний для мaйнингa.
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April 07, 2017, 01:06:03 PM
 #3

I would like to see how some talented guy will develop a hack which will enable this "asic boost" an all Bitmain HW all around the world...

I will not become a millionaire because of that hack, I'd just like to see what will happen then... And what will Bitmain say...
Of course all those empty blocks generated wouldn't disrupt anything at all aside from increasing the rate of diff increase...  Roll Eyes

Query: Is this ASICBOOST the same idea as the "Golden Nonce" or extra nonce operation that HF and other miners from a few years ago used?

For bitcoin to succeed the community must police itself - Joshua Zipkin aka Joshua Alexander leaked AMT A1 miner skype chats
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sidehack
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April 07, 2017, 01:44:27 PM
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Last I checked, it was a means of paralleling multiple midstates under a single nonce. The most efficient means of generating multiple midstates relied on a change in bitcoin protocol, which is using a zero-padding field as an extra data field. If done right it ends up combining another step (or partial step) of the double-SHA calculation where the efficiency increases slightly the more parallel midstates are used per nonce. I forget the specifics because it's been six or eight months since I read the whitepaper.

I know nothing about the extra nonce operation you're talking about. I wasn't really concerned with chip functions back then.

What's the current Bitmain/ASICBoost fiasco? I seem to have missed that news.

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April 07, 2017, 01:49:20 PM
 #5

I read that Asicboost is not possible if there is a soft-fork solution to Segwit and that would be the reason why Bitmain would love so much a hard-fork solution like Bitcoin Unlimited for example.

philipma1957
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April 07, 2017, 02:03:46 PM
 #6

Does not matter much anymore as the shift to other coins will continue.

Frankly bitmain should get its way with bu and use the boost giving a 20 or 30 percent edge for Thier miner.

This would simply drive mining into alts faster.

The segwit vs bu. is a moot point either one won't stop alt coin growth.

The companies that stand to gain from alt coin growth are many with huge wealth.

Intel,AMD,NVIDIA every mobo builder every ram stick builder every case builder every Psu builder.

ASIC builders can't subsidize btc like the companies above can subsidize alt coins.

This shift is not changing.  Do the math on a Nvidia mining Zec power used is 1/4 that of power used with an s9

By power used. I mean this 350 watts earns the same as 1400 watts.

So segwit or bu or ASIC boost does not fix that difference.  


See screen  the s9 makes 7.86 usd a day  using  about 1400 watts.
boost it  30% it makes 10.21 usd a day

here is an s-9:





here is a 2 card amd using 310 watts  it makes 4 bucks a day  so 2x that  it makes 8 bucks using 620 watts

3x it it makes

12 bucks  using 930 watts
this kills the asic boosted s9 never mind the  normal s9





I mine alt coins with https://simplemining.net...
I see BTC as the super highway and alt coins as taxis and trucks needed to move transactions.
BobLawblaw
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April 07, 2017, 02:12:17 PM
 #7

The segwit vs bu. is a mute moot point either one won't stop alt coin growth.
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April 07, 2017, 02:24:37 PM
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There's also the consideration that coin prices tend to drift toward the average cost to manufacture and there's no reason your favorite altcoin wouldn't do the same thing. And if you're trading your cheaply-mined alts for bitcoins you also have to consider those coins were generated by a miner somewhere getting the short end of the stick.

But anyways, a question about bitcoin mining hardware and protocols can't really be answered by saying "ignore it and mine something else instead".

philipma1957
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April 07, 2017, 04:10:27 PM
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There's also the consideration that coin prices tend to drift toward the average cost to manufacture and there's no reason your favorite altcoin wouldn't do the same thing. And if you're trading your cheaply-mined alts for bitcoins you also have to consider those coins were generated by a miner somewhere getting the short end of the stick.

But anyways, a question about bitcoin mining hardware and protocols can't really be answered by saying "ignore it and mine something else instead".

nope  as there are more then 100 companies  with more then 1 trillion in assets that can simply  buy some zec or eth or xmr.

this is the factor  that is causing the rush to alts.

Take ZEC  look at tiny market cap 60 million

it is so easy for a company like nvidia  to pump the coin they do it.

this is not true for btc it takes heavy money to pump the coin





look at Nvidia  worth more then 59 billion
for them to do a pump of ZEC  one or two times  a month to sell more gpus is a no brainer a very  cost effective commercial.



I mine alt coins with https://simplemining.net...
I see BTC as the super highway and alt coins as taxis and trucks needed to move transactions.
VentMine
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April 07, 2017, 04:19:55 PM
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There's also the consideration that coin prices tend to drift toward the average cost to manufacture and there's no reason your favorite altcoin wouldn't do the same thing. And if you're trading your cheaply-mined alts for bitcoins you also have to consider those coins were generated by a miner somewhere getting the short end of the stick.

But anyways, a question about bitcoin mining hardware and protocols can't really be answered by saying "ignore it and mine something else instead".

I agree with Sidehack here, Phil. The better the profitability the more investment in mining the coin = more hash, less profit / miner and the trend towards equalization. This should always occur in any PoW coin as miners will shut off the machines when unprofitable (better to purchase coins), and will never sell their mined coins at < cost to acquire (this also pressure towards equilibrium and also stabilizes price).

Also Sidehack as per your question above, i'm sure you're up to date now, but there's allegations floating around (which appear accurate) that Bitmain has been using covert ASICBOOST, but not disclosing it, and gaining 20-30% efficiency gains. This shines a light on the whole reason they oppose Segwit etc. The reason it makes me angry is that I consider this practice unethical (not being open about it). I would have hesitated to buy their equipment had I known they do business like this. Their customers should be included in the "optimization".

Hopefully someone smart on this forum will post anhow-to guide to get our S9's to run ASICBOOST (I assume the pool would have to enable it + firmware update to the S9?)

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sidehack
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April 07, 2017, 05:10:22 PM
 #11

So Phil - you're saying you want to mine a coin whose value is being held artificially high as a sales gimmick?

ASICBOOST is a hardware implementation. I wonder how they built it into the S9 in a way that would work with the typical. Maybe if I get time this weekend I'll go back over the whitepaper and refresh on some concepts. If Bitmain was doing something that wouldn't be surprising in the least; those guys really really like profits and don't seem to mind screwing people to get 'em. At least they always deliver the gear, got that going for 'em, but that's about it.

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April 07, 2017, 05:32:49 PM
 #12

The reason it makes me angry is that I consider this practice unethical (not being open about it). I would have hesitated to buy their equipment had I known they do business like this. Their customers should be included in the "optimization".

Agreed and i don't think we heard the end of this story yet.
Lots of posts are floating or reddit re antpool and this feature.

Re btc and altcoins, I agree with Phil that btc mining reputation got damaged by nefarious actors.
It is not individual miners fault per se, but we all share some blame in a sense of unwittingly supporting them.
Personally, I regret buying their equipment knowing what i know now.
Commodity mining, where you don't rely on a single or dominant manufacturer, should avoid such problems.

Phil is just guessing that NVidia and AMD could do something to promote alts.
There is absolutely no evidence that this already happened or will happen in the future.
However, there is clear and accumulating evidence that asicboost/Bitmain screwup did happen in btc space.
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April 07, 2017, 05:36:21 PM
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I'll pay a premium, anything to avoid these criminals

No you wont, and neither will anyone else. Thats why the market is the way it is....

Stop buying industrial miners, running them at home, and then complaining about the noise.
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April 07, 2017, 05:40:30 PM
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I'll pay a premium, anything to avoid these criminals

No you wont, and neither will anyone else. Thats why the market is the way it is....

don't count on me, so there are at least two of us, hence NOT anyone.
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April 07, 2017, 05:44:50 PM
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don't count on me, so there are at least two of us, hence NOT anyone.

Feel free to split hairs if it makes you feel good

Stop buying industrial miners, running them at home, and then complaining about the noise.
sidehack
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April 07, 2017, 05:47:02 PM
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I bought an S7LN, that's the last new Bitmain miner I've purchased since the S3 days and that was so I could figure out how to hack it. Right now it's providing heat for the crapper at the shop. Figure I'll stick to mining on secondhand gear and stuff I build myself.

Not supporting nefarious actors would be nice. ASICBOOST itself wouldn't be too bad (I mean, it is a good idea) if it wasn't being patented and licensed out. That's pretty counter to Bitcoin philosophy in general. But Biodom, I figured out a long time ago that people who stuck to their ethics are a sore minority in the bitcoin world. People here really like to make money and don't often care how.

philipma1957
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April 07, 2017, 05:54:20 PM
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So Phil - you're saying you want to mine a coin whose value is being held artificially high as a sales gimmick?

ASICBOOST is a hardware implementation. I wonder how they built it into the S9 in a way that would work with the typical. Maybe if I get time this weekend I'll go back over the whitepaper and refresh on some concepts. If Bitmain was doing something that wouldn't be surprising in the least; those guys really really like profits and don't seem to mind screwing people to get 'em. At least they always deliver the gear, got that going for 'em, but that's about it.

No I don't want to do that.  But I am mining Zec and I am pretty sure Zec keeps its value do to subsidies from companies like Nvidia .

The vast majority of btc is mined and in wallets/btc addys.

It is worth close to 20 billion.

If I can mine Zec and trade it in for btc which is what I do and Nvidia props the value of Zec which I believe happens.  I can earn btc at a 75% power discount .

This beats bitmains supposed ASIC boost by a lot.

I pay far less to get btc this way.

Now. If no one subsidizes any alt and never did and the alts are doing this on their own. The up side is better
Since sooner or later they will  subsidize alts since my idea would work.

The down side is. They are propping up the price as I type.  Well if they stop and alts crash. I still mine btc with s9 r4 and Avalon.


Back to ASIC boost. If it is an angle that works and ant miner uses it. Fine they just have a better miner and other companies need to build it.

It they keep a 130% miner in house and never sell it.  That's fine by me it is business for them.

ASIC builders do this hold back better gear.

Going to segwit to stop them is wrong.  Think about it.

This means every time some one makes a faster better chip btc will change to stop it from working.

That is a terrible idea.

I say if they really can do ASIC boost and score let them.

The best way to combat it is mine an alt with a gpu.

I mine alt coins with https://simplemining.net...
I see BTC as the super highway and alt coins as taxis and trucks needed to move transactions.
jmumich
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April 07, 2017, 05:57:46 PM
 #18

Looks like anyone can activate ASICBOOST on their Antminer?

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/63yo27/some_circumstantial_evidence_supporting_the_claim/dfy5o65/
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April 07, 2017, 05:58:24 PM
 #19

I bought an S7LN, that's the last new Bitmain miner I've purchased since the S3 days and that was so I could figure out how to hack it. Right now it's providing heat for the crapper at the shop. Figure I'll stick to mining on secondhand gear and stuff I build myself.

Not supporting nefarious actors would be nice. ASICBOOST itself wouldn't be too bad (I mean, it is a good idea) if it wasn't being patented and licensed out. That's pretty counter to Bitcoin philosophy in general.

that's not exactly the contention (licensing, etc).

The contention is that ASICBOOST was build-in into hardware and Bitmain rendered this feature inoperative for customers, but enabled it for themselves only.

Now, they admitted building it into hardware and also said that they did not use it. Would you believe this: building a secret non-disclosed feature into hardware, NOT using it, but still opposing a software change that will negate it? Plus, opposing segwit because it would have rendered the feature useless, essentially stopping all softforks upgrades because most of them would have also negated the secret hardware feature.
Now people are finding code in Antpool that supports the hardware feature (covert asicboost).
philipma1957
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April 07, 2017, 06:08:13 PM
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I bought an S7LN, that's the last new Bitmain miner I've purchased since the S3 days and that was so I could figure out how to hack it. Right now it's providing heat for the crapper at the shop. Figure I'll stick to mining on secondhand gear and stuff I build myself.

Not supporting nefarious actors would be nice. ASICBOOST itself wouldn't be too bad (I mean, it is a good idea) if it wasn't being patented and licensed out. That's pretty counter to Bitcoin philosophy in general.

that's not exactly the contention (licensing, etc).

The contention is that ASICBOOST was build-in into hardware and Bitmain rendered this feature inoperative for customers, but enabled it for themselves only.

Now, they admitted building it into hardware and also said that they did not use it. Would you believe this: building a secret non-disclosed feature into hardware, NOT using it, but still opposing a software change that will negate it?
Now people are finding code in Antpool that supports the hardware feature.

I am sure they took the edge.
I am taking the edge mining zec with nvidia cards and converting to btc.
btw  my  edge is open to all and I never hide it from anyone.

Antminer/bitmain  have punished the btc coin  a lot... 

Still   segwit  is not the answer  it will not fix the issue  it will slide to another angle.

Gpu mining of alts are fundamentally more honest way to mine. 

Mostly due to asic builders fucking around for years.


I mine alt coins with https://simplemining.net...
I see BTC as the super highway and alt coins as taxis and trucks needed to move transactions.
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