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Author Topic: Will Bitmain Antminers S9 and T9 be obsolete if Segwit is launced ?  (Read 8380 times)
Chris Cash
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April 12, 2017, 12:23:36 AM
 #21

I just noticed a frase in Bitmain`s statement from last night re. ASICBOOST.

One line really got my attention:

http://i64.tinypic.com/33nyliu.jpg



So, that line tells they have tested or seen ASICBOOST on main net, but not quite as the patented way......
They also states they want to have the advantage of ASICBOOST in China for their hosting facilities....Am I the only one feeling this knowledge should have been out to the masses so the network would grow and transactions faster ?


So Bitmain miners are the best to purchase because of this boost functionality?
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NotFuzzyWarm
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April 12, 2017, 12:33:03 AM
 #22

So Bitmain miners are the best to purchase because of this boost functionality?
NO!
Read the frickin' thread... It is NOT being used (according to Bitmain) and other un-named companies have it or a variant of it in their chips as well so is a moot point. The circuits/logic are present but so far unused, probably because it does not deliver significant real advantage.

For bitcoin to succeed the community must police itself - Joshua Zipkin aka Joshua Alexander leaked AMT A1 miner skype chats
How a miner mfgr SHOULD operate: HaggsFIN trip to Canaan My info useful? Donations welcome! 1Fuzzyk398kDWVjuC5qPX5v6CjSkvbgAbd
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Estonic
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April 12, 2017, 05:08:57 PM
 #23

So Bitmain miners are the best to purchase because of this boost functionality?
NO!
Read the frickin' thread... It is NOT being used (according to Bitmain) and other un-named companies have it or a variant of it in their chips as well so is a moot point. The circuits are present but so far unused, probably because it does not deliver significant real advantage.

So the SegWit will have no effects.
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April 13, 2017, 04:14:46 PM
 #24

I don't know how ANYONE who mines and who doesn't have access to ASICBOOST could consider it OK (^^ looking at you NotFuzzy).. Mining should be done on an even playing field to promote decentralization, this is what bitcoin is all about. ASICBOOST, while a clever workaround, works against the entire premise of bitcoin. I don't fault Bitmain, they are doing what's in their best interest, OK fine. But it's wrong to be hoarding it to yourself and essentially ripping off your customers. It's wrong to block protocol upgrades, hurting the entire network and slowing growth just for personal gain. The worst part, imo, is that it limits other manufacturers from competing, which hurts all of us miners.

I look forward to the day Segwit activates and I can trust that my mining equipment has the same opportunity to compete as others.

Also, speaking of the Bitmain patent... I probably don't understand the patent aspect properly but how can Bitmain own the Chinese patent, if the real inventors patented it beforehand in other countries? This prior art should invalidate Bitmains claims, doesn't matter if it is filed in a separate country. And last thought on the patent - the inventors took a risk patenting it, a risk that the network would render it obsolete in future updates. I have no sympathy for any patent holder in this space where the patent inherently limits progress.

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NotFuzzyWarm
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April 13, 2017, 05:32:58 PM
 #25

Quote
Also, speaking of the Bitmain patent... I probably don't understand the patent aspect properly but how can Bitmain own the Chinese patent, if the real inventors patented it beforehand in other countries? This prior art should invalidate Bitmains claims, doesn't matter if it is filed in a separate country. And last thought on the patent - the inventors took a risk patenting it, a risk that the network would render it obsolete in future updates. I have no sympathy for any patent holder in this space where the patent inherently limits progress.
That is just how International Patent law is. Same applies to Copyright.

Each Country has it's own rules about Prior Art and unless countries have agreements between each other regarding it, to each its own as to what is Patentable. There is no international body nor even general consensus covering it. Why do you think so many products can have multiple individual countries listed as 'Patented in"? Aside from EU member states (file once with EU and covered in all), if you want patent protection in a specific country you must file for the patent in each and every country you are concerned with. My guess why Bitmain bothered to list work by Cannon and Panasonic as Prior Art is because said work by them has a Chinese patent covering it so they had to do it.

The only thing regarding Infringement in these cases that can be done is a Plantiff's country banning imports of the offending product.  An offhand guess is that sticky point is why Bitmain has not activated their version of AB for use outside China (and so they claim, in China either).

For bitcoin to succeed the community must police itself - Joshua Zipkin aka Joshua Alexander leaked AMT A1 miner skype chats
How a miner mfgr SHOULD operate: HaggsFIN trip to Canaan My info useful? Donations welcome! 1Fuzzyk398kDWVjuC5qPX5v6CjSkvbgAbd
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April 14, 2017, 04:56:01 AM
 #26

I don't know how ANYONE who mines and who doesn't have access to ASICBOOST could consider it OK (^^ looking at you NotFuzzy).. Mining should be done on an even playing field to promote decentralization, this is what bitcoin is all about. ASICBOOST, while a clever workaround, works against the entire premise of bitcoin. I don't fault Bitmain, they are doing what's in their best interest, OK fine. But it's wrong to be hoarding it to yourself and essentially ripping off your customers. It's wrong to block protocol upgrades, hurting the entire network and slowing growth just for personal gain. The worst part, imo, is that it limits other manufacturers from competing, which hurts all of us miners.

I look forward to the day Segwit activates and I can trust that my mining equipment has the same opportunity to compete as others.

Also, speaking of the Bitmain patent... I probably don't understand the patent aspect properly but how can Bitmain own the Chinese patent, if the real inventors patented it beforehand in other countries? This prior art should invalidate Bitmains claims, doesn't matter if it is filed in a separate country. And last thought on the patent - the inventors took a risk patenting it, a risk that the network would render it obsolete in future updates. I have no sympathy for any patent holder in this space where the patent inherently limits progress.

Dude,there is no "even playing field" in Bitcoin mining anymore,unless you can make & sell to the public an ASIC miner......

Which no one but those who ALREADY have ASICs can do  Wink

So Bitcoin is already "Centralized" by those Corporate mines & VERY large private mines.....THEY control the network,not the people.

Been like this for over a year now sooooo...your argument is moot   Roll Eyes


"If you run into an asshole in the morning, you ran into an asshole. If you run into assholes all day long, you are the asshole."  -Raylan Givens
Got GOXXED ?? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KiqRpPiJAU&feature=youtu.be
"An ASIC being late is perfectly normal, predictable, and legal..."Hashfast & BFL slogan Smiley
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April 15, 2017, 05:43:21 AM
 #27

Rumors says that code of ASICBOOST has been discovered at Antpool.
If it is the case that Bitmain has secretly incorporated ASICBOOST into the T9 and S9`s they will be more or less worthless if segwit is launched and thats why Bitmain is fighting like maniacs to use Bitcoin Unlimited.
Can anyone reveal what hasrate a "real" S9 and T9 then will be putting out on the segwit network without cheat?
Do we have to take 20-30% of present hashrate pr unit?



Try s5 models.
They are very cheap. Only about 80$ and are a 1.15 th/s Speeds!
Their amazing  Cheesy
Spondoolies-Tech
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April 15, 2017, 07:49:16 PM
 #28

I feel like people have no concept of what segwit or asicboost actually is....they just see some reddit post demonizing it and fall in line when they really dont have a clue what it does or how it affects things. Everyone is so focused on calling bitmain the devil they dont care about the truth. Its like burning someone for being a witch back in the day...there was no basis in reality for any of the claims levied against people yet they still burned because the unintelligent masses would gather in mindless mobs and parrot what one or two loudmouths would say until everyone believed it to be true.
+1
Lulz, so since joining Bitmain, you've been dumbed down to a '+1' level poster who knows nothing about what his company is actually doing? Smiley
Why not provide some information? Or you don't know what your company is doing so you shouldn't be posting at all?
You should also update your sig, you don't work for spondoolies Tongue

The original firmware of the early S9, before they were sold to the public, included a change to the stratum protocol to support the document I posted in the S9 thread.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1493601.msg15634328#msg15634328

The S9 didn't work on ckpool due to a stratum connection mode incompatibility.
Yes pre-sale S9s were tested on ckpool.
They 'modified' the stratum change so it works without failing to connect to ckpool.

Of course as mentioned above, this is verified here also:
https://blog.bitmain.com/en/regarding-recent-allegations-smear-campaigns/

If they were using the 'Overt' method, you'd see it in the block headers.
If they were using the 'Covert' method, it would mean a power saving, so not a direct hash rate increase of each miner, but an overall hash rate increase due to more available power.

Most likely they are using the 'Covert' method.
Their blog pretty much implies it by not denying it, and confirming it's in their miners, and saying they have paid for the rights for it in china.
1) I never joined BitmainTech
2) They are not using the covert method
3) Not interested in getting into an argument with you

VentMine
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April 18, 2017, 06:26:21 PM
 #29

I feel like people have no concept of what segwit or asicboost actually is....they just see some reddit post demonizing it and fall in line when they really dont have a clue what it does or how it affects things. Everyone is so focused on calling bitmain the devil they dont care about the truth. Its like burning someone for being a witch back in the day...there was no basis in reality for any of the claims levied against people yet they still burned because the unintelligent masses would gather in mindless mobs and parrot what one or two loudmouths would say until everyone believed it to be true.
+1
Lulz, so since joining Bitmain, you've been dumbed down to a '+1' level poster who knows nothing about what his company is actually doing? Smiley
Why not provide some information? Or you don't know what your company is doing so you shouldn't be posting at all?
You should also update your sig, you don't work for spondoolies Tongue

The original firmware of the early S9, before they were sold to the public, included a change to the stratum protocol to support the document I posted in the S9 thread.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1493601.msg15634328#msg15634328

The S9 didn't work on ckpool due to a stratum connection mode incompatibility.
Yes pre-sale S9s were tested on ckpool.
They 'modified' the stratum change so it works without failing to connect to ckpool.

Of course as mentioned above, this is verified here also:
https://blog.bitmain.com/en/regarding-recent-allegations-smear-campaigns/

If they were using the 'Overt' method, you'd see it in the block headers.
If they were using the 'Covert' method, it would mean a power saving, so not a direct hash rate increase of each miner, but an overall hash rate increase due to more available power.

Most likely they are using the 'Covert' method.
Their blog pretty much implies it by not denying it, and confirming it's in their miners, and saying they have paid for the rights for it in china.
1) I never joined BitmainTech
2) They are not using the covert method
3) Not interested in getting into an argument with you

How do you know that 2) They are not using the covert method? Why would they patent it and build it into their chipset if they didn't intend to use it? Doubtful they would bother doing it 'defensively'

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VentMine
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April 18, 2017, 06:29:42 PM
 #30

I don't know how ANYONE who mines and who doesn't have access to ASICBOOST could consider it OK (^^ looking at you NotFuzzy).. Mining should be done on an even playing field to promote decentralization, this is what bitcoin is all about. ASICBOOST, while a clever workaround, works against the entire premise of bitcoin. I don't fault Bitmain, they are doing what's in their best interest, OK fine. But it's wrong to be hoarding it to yourself and essentially ripping off your customers. It's wrong to block protocol upgrades, hurting the entire network and slowing growth just for personal gain. The worst part, imo, is that it limits other manufacturers from competing, which hurts all of us miners.

I look forward to the day Segwit activates and I can trust that my mining equipment has the same opportunity to compete as others.

Also, speaking of the Bitmain patent... I probably don't understand the patent aspect properly but how can Bitmain own the Chinese patent, if the real inventors patented it beforehand in other countries? This prior art should invalidate Bitmains claims, doesn't matter if it is filed in a separate country. And last thought on the patent - the inventors took a risk patenting it, a risk that the network would render it obsolete in future updates. I have no sympathy for any patent holder in this space where the patent inherently limits progress.

Dude,there is no "even playing field" in Bitcoin mining anymore,unless you can make & sell to the public an ASIC miner......

Which no one but those who ALREADY have ASICs can do  Wink

So Bitcoin is already "Centralized" by those Corporate mines & VERY large private mines.....THEY control the network,not the people.

Been like this for over a year now sooooo...your argument is moot   Roll Eyes


No I think my argument is still valid. How is another manufacturer / group of investors supposed to get into the ASIC game when Bitmain can monopolize covert ASICBOOST, which is really just a bug in the protocol? It does nothing good for the ecosystem, which is entirely against the point of bitcoin and decentralization.

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April 18, 2017, 06:43:41 PM
 #31

ASICBOOST has literally nothing to do with the 'point' of bitcoin or decentralization. Its just math....anyone that wants to activate it can make their own pool and do it. Its not like this is some secret monopoly espcially since noone can PROVE it is being used by bitmain

Stop buying industrial miners, running them at home, and then complaining about the noise.
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April 19, 2017, 04:56:16 AM
 #32

Right so let's go with Gregs BIP and patch and kill covert boost. Then there's nothing to worry about

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April 22, 2017, 04:06:17 AM
 #33

I don't know how ANYONE who mines and who doesn't have access to ASICBOOST could consider it OK (^^ looking at you NotFuzzy).. Mining should be done on an even playing field to promote decentralization, this is what bitcoin is all about.

In a perfect world, yes. But unfortunately most people are not using Bitcoin to help the create a new method of payment and eliminate the need for fiat currency. 
They are using Bitcoin to make a profit. 
A small percentage of people are trying to make a difference. The rest are just trying to line their pockets. Sad

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April 23, 2017, 07:30:22 AM
 #34

I don't know how ANYONE who mines and who doesn't have access to ASICBOOST could consider it OK (^^ looking at you NotFuzzy).. Mining should be done on an even playing field to promote decentralization, this is what bitcoin is all about. ASICBOOST, while a clever workaround, works against the entire premise of bitcoin. I don't fault Bitmain, they are doing what's in their best interest, OK fine. But it's wrong to be hoarding it to yourself and essentially ripping off your customers. It's wrong to block protocol upgrades, hurting the entire network and slowing growth just for personal gain. The worst part, imo, is that it limits other manufacturers from competing, which hurts all of us miners.

I look forward to the day Segwit activates and I can trust that my mining equipment has the same opportunity to compete as others.

Also, speaking of the Bitmain patent... I probably don't understand the patent aspect properly but how can Bitmain own the Chinese patent, if the real inventors patented it beforehand in other countries? This prior art should invalidate Bitmains claims, doesn't matter if it is filed in a separate country. And last thought on the patent - the inventors took a risk patenting it, a risk that the network would render it obsolete in future updates. I have no sympathy for any patent holder in this space where the patent inherently limits progress.

Dude,there is no "even playing field" in Bitcoin mining anymore,unless you can make & sell to the public an ASIC miner......

Which no one but those who ALREADY have ASICs can do  Wink

So Bitcoin is already "Centralized" by those Corporate mines & VERY large private mines.....THEY control the network,not the people.

Been like this for over a year now sooooo...your argument is moot   Roll Eyes


No I think my argument is still valid. How is another manufacturer / group of investors supposed to get into the ASIC game when Bitmain can monopolize covert ASICBOOST, which is really just a bug in the protocol? It does nothing good for the ecosystem, which is entirely against the point of bitcoin and decentralization.

Who is for this "decentralization" you speak of?? You or me??? Is there ANYTHING you or me can do about it??

NO....so why are you arguing & to whom?? WE the people can do NOTHING to stop it...again your point is moot  Cheesy

Those who have the market share DO NOT want competition...it has been (for almost 2 years now) & will ALWAYS be a CENTRALIZED market from here on out.

Unless you have several million to lose on designing an ASIC,it can not be changed,that turning point has past long ago.................


"If you run into an asshole in the morning, you ran into an asshole. If you run into assholes all day long, you are the asshole."  -Raylan Givens
Got GOXXED ?? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KiqRpPiJAU&feature=youtu.be
"An ASIC being late is perfectly normal, predictable, and legal..."Hashfast & BFL slogan Smiley
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April 23, 2017, 04:03:58 PM
 #35

Segwit is good for all the independent miners.

The bitmain miners that we have may have asicboost on the hardware but not on the firmware that is sold to us, we get no benefit of asicboost.

Asicboot is patented technology which goes against the spirit of Bitcoin, and the GPL, we should not allow any patented technoly on the Bitcoin network, unless if it is an invalid patent like someone patenting the blockchain or Bitcoin itself, then the patent should be ignore since it is not legit.

I been mining on slushdot and I get the advertised hash rates without the use of asicboost.

Support Segwit it is the way to go, use mining pools that support Segwit.

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April 23, 2017, 06:54:48 PM
 #36

The fact that US miners don't pay import tax/VAT on their miners is the real scandal, IMHO!
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April 23, 2017, 10:16:19 PM
 #37

The fact that US miners don't pay import tax/VAT on their miners is the real scandal, IMHO!
I fail to see how this argument applies to the topic on hand. Your stated argument is also backward of reality. Tongue

Casual Miner: 3x 2PAC and 3x Moonlander 2
Retired HW: 2x AntMiner S7-LN, 5x AntMiner U1, 2x ASICMiner Block Erupter Cube, 4x AntMiner S3, 4x AntMiner S1, GAW Black Widow, and ZeusMiner Thunder X6
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April 23, 2017, 10:43:35 PM
 #38

The fact that US miners don't pay import tax/VAT on their miners is the real scandal, IMHO!
Bzzzt -- wrong. Well partly wrong.

True we pay no VAT however, if the miner is worth more than $2500 YES we do pay Customs Duty. If the shipper does not provide the correct shipping codes like Canaan did for a while we pay Duty regardless of value. Then there is my State's 9% sales Tax which is supposed to be paid on all internet purchases. So, not all rosy this side of the Pond.

To keep this on topic, segwit will have zero effect on what miner hardware is needed.

For bitcoin to succeed the community must police itself - Joshua Zipkin aka Joshua Alexander leaked AMT A1 miner skype chats
How a miner mfgr SHOULD operate: HaggsFIN trip to Canaan My info useful? Donations welcome! 1Fuzzyk398kDWVjuC5qPX5v6CjSkvbgAbd
-Support Sidehacks miner development. Donations to:   1BURGERAXHH6Yi6LRybRJK7ybEm5m5HwTr
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April 24, 2017, 07:00:32 PM
 #39

This thread should just be deleted so people dont read the title and get some crazy idea that segwit will make any hardware obsolete for any reason

Stop buying industrial miners, running them at home, and then complaining about the noise.
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April 25, 2017, 12:28:59 AM
 #40

This thread should just be deleted so people dont read the title and get some crazy idea that segwit will make any hardware obsolete for any reason
Honestly, I read the title and thought to myself, "WTF is this rubbish?" However, I can see how noobies might get confused.

Casual Miner: 3x 2PAC and 3x Moonlander 2
Retired HW: 2x AntMiner S7-LN, 5x AntMiner U1, 2x ASICMiner Block Erupter Cube, 4x AntMiner S3, 4x AntMiner S1, GAW Black Widow, and ZeusMiner Thunder X6
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