Bitcoin obstructionists

[jonald_fyookball]

I am going to keep track of those that I personally feel are
trolling, shilling, fudding, and hurting the discussion of
Bitcoin here.

If you can recommend someone who belongs in the hall
of shame, post their username and a link to a reference.

This is a self moderated thread and I will delete any posts
that are trolling, shilling, fudding, and probably put you on
the list as well if you do that.

[1713500731]

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[jonald_fyookball]

#1:  Lauda

Reference threads:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1871610.0
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1877789.0


Description:

Lauda constantly shills for Blockstream/Core and knows just enough about Bitcoin technicals to make
a good-sounding argument to the non-technical reader.

His favorite troll tactic is to make technical points, and when these points are refuted or debated,
he simply pivots his argument to a different point.

He's one of the most successful trolls because he's been able to use this tactic over and over,
often responding in little quote snippets so that readers can't follow the entire conversation and
see that he is just leading the argument in circles.

#2 Darkbot

Reference thread:  This one.

Description:

A simple minded ague-by-assertion/argue-by-repetition troll that accuses myself and others of shilling/trolling with no proof.


#3 Fiendcoin

Reference thread: This one with quotes to other threads

Description:

A no-substance troll that essentially makes no real arguments.  Only attacks those that oppose Blockstream/Core.
edit:  seems to perhaps to be willing to have a conversation since this thread started.  Main arguments are
"core is the more experienced team" and "we should do segwit first just like Core roadmap says".

#4 Billy Bob Zorton

Reference example:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1883040.msg18710025#msg18710025

Description:  A somewhat comical, mildly annoying troll constantly argues by assertion and reptition.
Often refers to BU as an "alt coin" and says things like "We all know ______" and "Nobody supports
BU except ____"  

#5: Carlton Banks

(I had put Carlton on ignore so I don't have a reference but there are numerous)

Descripton:  A particularly snarky and mean spirit shilll with a pseudo-intellectual air.
Knows a few technical things.  Yet, like all shills, must resort to dishonest tactics
such as nitpicking a part of a post and responding only to that instead of discussing
the meat of the issues.  Also includes quite a number of ad-hominem attacks along
with his trolling.   

[vintagetrex]

all founders of ethereum.  Especially Neal Koblitz and Vitalik Buterin.  Russian/US but really international government communists looking to decrease freedom and create system for orchestrating the actions of non autonomous bug humans.  They're also multi propped. 

[Lipe490]

I am going to keep track of those that I personally feel are
trolling, shilling, fudding, and hurting the discussion of
Bitcoin here.

If you can recommend someone who belongs in the hall
of shame, post their username and a link to a reference.

This is a self moderated thread and I will delete any posts
that are trolling, shilling, fudding, and probably put you on
the list as well if you do that.

Thank you a lot! But they are not the main problem compared with scammers.

[jonald_fyookball]

Lauda has been added as the first entry.

[chennan]

This more or less just sounds like a blacklist of people you don't like/agree with.  What good does that serve? One of the main points of message boards like this are to have debates and challenge ideas.  Plus I mean, I guess it depends on the kind of person you are; but wouldn't it be boring if you essentially put your self in an echo chamber and got the same positive reinforcement all the time? 

[dinofelis]

This more or less just sounds like a blacklist of people you don't like/agree with.

Well, I just got censored by Lauda (see the thread about that I just started...).  So I have to agree with jonald.

[AngryDwarf]

I've got to disagree with the recent shill lists discussion threads being published. They are not going to be a balanced representation of who people consider shills. How do you define a shill? Is a shill list started by someone who some people consider being a shill on one side going to allow for balanced accusations of shills on the otherside? Both are self moderated. The only good thing about the latter is that it is bound to create a barrage of mud slinging, so I suppose they can just be censored out.

[jonald_fyookball]

This more or less just sounds like a blacklist of people you don't like/agree with.  What good does that serve? One of the main points of message boards like this are to have debates and challenge ideas.  Plus I mean, I guess it depends on the kind of person you are; but wouldn't it be boring if you essentially put your self in an echo chamber and got the same positive reinforcement all the time?  

I've got to disagree with the recent shill lists discussion threads being published. They are not going to be a balanced representation of who people consider shills. How do you define a shill? Is a shill list started by someone who some people consider being a shill on one side going to allow for balanced accusations of shills on the otherside? Both are self moderated. The only good thing about the latter is that it is bound to create a barrage of mud slinging, so I suppose they can just be censored out.

Good points and I would like to address these.

First of all, I do not intend to simply label everyone I disagree with as a troll, but rather individuals who engange in repeated and flagrant dishonest/irrational communication, for example: refusing to stay on point, argumentum ad repetition, and generally toxic behavior.  I concede that my own judgement of who falls into this category is somewhat subjective and biased.  (Ironically, most trolls will never admit they have any bias at all and pretend their word is gospel.)   There are several people that hold opposing views from me, whom I respect, and they do not need to resort to childish tactics to express themselves.  

As to the value of this thread:  We all want to express our opinions.  I can only hope that my opinion will be valued more than certain other people's opinion because I have demonstrated a history of honesty and goodwill along with a solid understanding of Bitcoin.

[ImHash]

What is that "scaling and transaction list" signature I often see some members wearing? you know what I think? I think bitcoin has this problem in it's roots where it gives the miners the freedom to either include transactions in blocks or simply ignore them and mine empty blocks, I mean in a decentralized network where people need their transactions to be processed then those with the means and the power to do so can selectively deny people. though full nodes can easily validate transactions as they have the full blockchain and miners could keep mining but again the issue with double spends comes to play and discussing that is out of scope of this topic.

But tell me something, why don't BU dev(s) take SW then remove whatever they don't like and then publish it for miners to choose? I might have some clue why they're not doing that, because they want their version to be used no question asked, if BU was Satoshi's vision then why did BU nodes crashed? take any version before BU introduced to the network and perform the same attacks to see if they as well crash or not? if not then why did they tamper with Satoshi's vision themselves?

[bitbunnny]

This is not good, people will abuse such list and put there names of users they don't like. And how can you be objective and on what ground could anyone take the right to label someone based on, let's be honest, subjective feeling. This will not end good. After all this is forum, a place where people can freely share their opinions and attitudes. Look,what ancient greek word means.

[AngryDwarf]

What is that "scaling and transaction list" signature I often see some members wearing?

If you are talking about "scaling and transaction rate" I have in my current signature, it is a link to a Satoshi quote, where he references a quote to himself. The four principles I have stated underneath is what I believe needs to happen for his vision to work. Not sure anyone else is using it though, so you might be referring to something else.

you know what I think? I think bitcoin has this problem in it's roots where it gives the miners the freedom to either include transactions in blocks or simply ignore them and mine empty blocks, I mean in a decentralized network where people need their transactions to be processed then those with the means and the power to do so can selectively deny people. though full nodes can easily validate transactions as they have the full blockchain and miners could keep mining but again the issue with double spends comes to play and discussing that is out of scope of this topic.

You make a very good point. We cannot make a confirmed transaction without a miners 'permission'. For bitcoin to work miners must eventually confirm all transactions. Their incentive is that bitcoin is more valuable if it is reliable. Some miners are picking and choosing their fee paying transactions, and are happy to produce a non full block when there are plenty of fee paying transactions left. Others will pick them up.
Satoshi refers to double spend detection and zero confirmation economic risk here and here. Classic's FlexTrans implements a double spend detection method. Forgetful mempools are a menace to zero confirmation economic risk, as are part time nodes which currently create potential double spend holes through the network since mempools are not currently synced from their peers on start up.

But tell me something, why don't BU dev(s) take SW then remove whatever they don't like and then publish it for miners to choose? I might have some clue why they're not doing that, because they want their version to be used no question asked, if BU was Satoshi's vision then why did BU nodes crashed? take any version before BU introduced to the network and perform the same attacks to see if they as well crash or not? if not then why did they tamper with Satoshi's vision themselves?

BU have a BUIP for SW has a hard fork. The biggest problem with SW as a soft fork (in my opinion) is that it relies on kludges to make it work as a soft fork. As a hard fork, they could probably have changed the transaction format so that it works on native keys. This, taking ideas from classic's FlexTrans for double spend protection, and compact message formatting, along with dynamic block sizes would create a solid bitcoin foundation layer to build upon.

[Darkbot]

I am going to keep track of those that I personally feel are
trolling, shilling, fudding, and hurting the discussion of
Bitcoin here.

If you can recommend someone who belongs in the hall
of shame, post their username and a link to a reference.

This is a self moderated thread and I will delete any posts
that are trolling, shilling, fudding, and probably put you on
the list as well if you do that.

Here we have it R.I.P Jonald fyookball, one of the biggest trolls/shills here and on /btc.

[jonald_fyookball]

I am going to keep track of those that I personally feel are
trolling, shilling, fudding, and hurting the discussion of
Bitcoin here.

If you can recommend someone who belongs in the hall
of shame, post their username and a link to a reference.

This is a self moderated thread and I will delete any posts
that are trolling, shilling, fudding, and probably put you on
the list as well if you do that.

Here we have it R.I.P Jonald fyookball, one of the biggest trolls/shills here and on /btc.

Thanks for adding yourself.

[AngryDwarf]

Problem is, each polarised side views the other as obstructionists and shills. What they are failing to understand, is that each implementation has some ideas that are of merit.
Bitcoin needs a major protocol upgrade or it will become obsolete. It's the protocol that needs to be defined and consensus agreed on the approach forward. Since this is a major protocol change it should be done in the best way possible. Some actors need to bury their ego and open their minds.
Implementation details are up to individual software teams.

[European Central Bank]

i would class the type of person who hurts the discussion of bitcoin as the type of poster who you don't need to read any more because you already know what they're gonna say. there are quite a few of them.

[jonald_fyookball]

Spread the knowledge of shilling/trolling and keep track of the shills and their habits. When you can, out them when they post.

Add to my thread here and refer it to people who might not know.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1879789.0

OP, let's review your recent scaling-related posts before this thread:

Shilling on Bitcointalk has moved to epic levels and I’m tired of it. Battling these shill/trolls is like a part-time job with no pay and little reward. Any newbie coming here for information will have problems discerning what’s true due to these shysters. Instead of outright censorship, as a public service, I offer the Bitcoin Shill Force List!

Anti-Core, anti-Blockstream, pro-Bitcoin Unlimited/alternate client (classic, XT, EC, EXT Blocks, etc.), or Alt coin shills:

franky1 (alex.BTC?)
jonald_fyookball (also shills on Reddit)
iamnotback (thinks he’s a programmer, haughty, Alt coin shill, 24/7 posting?)
kiklo (angry, rude)
cryptoanarchist

Lets see how long before the shills come to defend Emperor Wu.

Congratulations, you're the 3rd or maybe 4th shill alt to call me stupid today, just brilliant.

Pat yourself on the back and keep up the good work!

Shills going to shill until they can't and then they resort to name calling smh..

Unlike you, I don't get paid to post, I do it for the lols so I don't care what anyone thinks. I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything unlike you and your shill buddies.

I just like to point out the bullshit shills as a public service  Grin

So says the franky1 alt account  Cheesy

There is no point in arguing with you about anything because you are a paid shill.

Point in fact, if you are pro decentralization you would be anti BU.

Where you stand is well documented, that's why people know you as a shill, its the only explanation why you post the bullshit that you do.

And finally, the most ironic of all:

People notice your name because you keep posting the SAME bullshit over and over, again and again, hour after hour, day after day, on and on and on...

I'm not here to use any ad hominems against you or personally insult you, but it seems like you haven't actually argued anywhere at all in favour of Core or against BU.  You have only relentlessly called everyone else a shill, over and over, again and again, hour after hour, day after day, on and on and on...

It really is getting a bit boring.  I was quite in favour of Core and still am but I don't let my own biases portray everyone else as evil or view myself as the great saviour of Bitcoin or something.

[alani123]

What's up with witch hunt threads lately? OP is included in an equivalent self moderated thread by someone from the other side. If you disagree with things people say, don't expect others to follow you just because you have labeled said people.

At the very least, don't self-mod your thread if you want to promote discussion...

[jonald_fyookball]

What's up with witch hunt threads lately? OP is included in an equivalent self moderated thread by someone from the other side.

Funny, right?

 If you disagree with things people say, don't expect others to follow you just because you have labeled said people.

I don't.    I expect others to believe me over my 'opponents' because I'm known for using logical arguments based in reality.

At the very least, don't self-mod your thread if you want to promote discussion...

I want to promote discussion in general but this thread isn't the place for it.  The actual issues have been discussed in many other threads and unfortunately there are some incapable of a mature conversation.

[FiendCoin]

#3 Fiendcoin

Reference thread: This one with quotes to other threads

Description:

A no-substance troll that essentially makes no real arguments.  Only attacks those that oppose Blockstream/Core.

That's your opinion just like its mine that you are a big block/anti-core/anti-blockstream shill much like franky1.

Like cockroaches, shills don't like having a light shined on them. If shills get trolled in the process, that's life.

Don't forget to add my very informative thread on trolls and shills or is that no substance as well?
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1880606.0

I said my peace here, I'll leave it at that, thanks.

What's up with witch hunt threads lately? OP is included in an equivalent self moderated thread by someone from the other side. If you disagree with things people say, don't expect others to follow you just because you have labeled said people.

At the very least, don't self-mod your thread if you want to promote discussion...

Self moderate threads let you filter out things such as name calling and fighting off topic, I don't have a problem with that. If Jonald wants to delete my post that's his prerogative.