To let shilling go unchecked is dangerous, he’s some proof as to why

[FiendCoin]

It only takes a few accounts to manipulate any discussion.

“Reddit's favorite scientist, used 5 accounts to bury criticism and to give his own comments visibility.”
https://www.reddit.com/r/shills/comments/5xi4gv/proof_of_concept_shills_only_need_a_few_accounts/

Here is the more detailed explanation of what shills are capable of:
https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/reddits-favorite-scientist-just-got-banned-for-cheating-the-site

Here’s a video about Reddit being manipulated by professional shills every day:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjLsFnQejP8&feature=youtu.be

Often times internet trolls are hired to shill. Here are some examples from the 2016 presidential election:
http://www.businessinsider.com/russia-internet-trolls-and-donald-trump-2016-7
https://www.dailykos.com/story/2016/4/21/1518537/-Clinton-SuperPac-Admits-to-Paying-Internet-Trolls

Here is a very good write up about internet trolls and trolling.
Included is information on over 100 different types of trolls and the different kinds of characterizations a troll can manifest when selling an agenda or a product.
https://darkpsychology.co/troll/

If you think this does not apply to Bitcointalk, you either haven’t been here long or are burying your head in the sand.
As a community, we need to stand up and fightback to combat shilling on our forum.
Below is my thread on shilling, please feel free to add to it.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1879789.0

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[European Central Bank]

the shills here are so obvious and so relentless that they kind of wipe out any effect they want to have.

reddit is kind of a different matter but the way it's set up is so fundamentally shitty that i don't think it's worth paying any attention to any more. i'm surprised reddit as a whole continues to thrive. i hate it.

[franky1]

opposing a view is different from shilling.

my post history has been very open about my views

however there are some people who have created an account where even their very first post contains the standard buzzwords that have been repeated by others spouting the same rhetoric.*

the solution.

when a code, concept, idea or opinion pops up from any side. ask yourself

what if hearne or a wall street banker done it.
meaning what if instead of blockstream, an outsider/obvious banker wrote the exact same segwit or dynamic code. line for line where the only difference is who wrote it

would you defend the code or the dev. would your opinion change

i know i expect my post to get deleted not due to the context. but because the OP has bias

only 6 weeks ago: OP's first post 2 known scripted buzzwords

It's sad that so many bitcoiners are dumb enough to support B(F)U   Chinacoin.

[FiendCoin]

opposing a view is different from shilling.

my post history has been very open about my views

however there are some people who have created an account where even their very first post contains the standard buzzwords that have been repeated by others spouting the same rhetoric.*

the solution.

when a code, concept, idea or opinion pops up from any side. ask yourself

what if hearne or a wall street banker done it.
meaning what if instead of blockstream, an outsider/obvious banker wrote the exact same segwit or dynamic code. line for line where the only difference is who wrote it

would you defend the code or the dev. would your opinion change

i know i expect my post to get deleted not due to the context. but because the OP has bias

only 6 weeks ago: OP's first post 2 known scripted buzzwords

It's sad that so many bitcoiners are dumb enough to support B(F)U   Chinacoin.

You got me franky, I'm a 100% shill against BU the Chinacoin. I thought that was pretty clear? 

[franky1]

You got me franky, I'm a 100% shill against BU the Chinacoin. I thought that was pretty clear?  

but have you asked yourself
1. do you know the actual stats of bitcoin mining vs actual geo-location. to use a racist term like Chinacoin
2. do you know that using the term chinacoin is not an original thought buzzword, but just a repeat from somewhere else you have read. and your just repeating what you have read elsewhere

how much research do you actually do after reading a reddit script before posting rhetoric

4. lets say you realised that BU was 99.9% the same code as bitcoin core 0.12 and the assert bug was actually part of bitcoin core and not fixed until v0.13.
would your opinion change if
gmaxwell released it as is.
or
a banker released it as is.
or
someone neither in blockstream or a banker released it as is

[FiendCoin]

You got me franky, I'm a 100% shill against BU the Chinacoin. I thought that was pretty clear? 

but have you asked yourself
1. do you know the actual stats of bitcoin mining vs actual geo-location. to use a racist term like Chinacoin
2. do you know that sing the term chinacoin is not an original thought buzzword, but just a repeat from somewhere else you have read. and your just repeating what you have read elswhere

how much research do you actually do after reading a reddit script before posting rhetoric

Let's keep on topic here and only post good troll/shilling sources to inform and enlighten readers, ok?

We can battle about the usual bullshit in all the other threads.

[FiendCoin]

Post some sources (with a brief description) on trolls/shills if you got some.

[FiendCoin]

ok on topic

a shill in my eyes is someone that makes multiple accounts where they obviously know a bit of bitcoin, but too afraid to use their main account to say whats on their mind.
by knowing a bit about bitcoin. i mean fresh account but having already formed opinions and not asking questions to research the real answers


a shill in my eyes is someone that makes multiple accounts where they try to echo chamber their rhetoric by pretending they have an army, instead of one person. by this i mean a kind of forum username sybil attack of a certain narrative

edit to answer point in fiendcoins next post:
off the top of my head..
like yourself fiendcoin
most of your posts are only a couple lines where all you want to do is throw out the obvious buzzwords/insults.
you have already admitted you do it as a hobby and for the lol's

darkbot is another, example repetition of insults and buzzwording, but has yet to admit it
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=558351

im guessing you want the examples so you can learn how to be less obvious with your next username you create

I gave you the courtesy of not calling you a shill here, the least you could do is the same.

And BTW, you're trolling my thread, please stop.

[jonald_fyookball]

I agree with the OP.  Letting shilling go unchecked is dangerous.

Usually you can tell the Bitcoin shills because they will only support one single scaling proposal or roadmap like a zealot.

[aarturka]

I wonder why franky has green trust with his obvious shilling for chinese monopolist. Who gave him trust may be it's time to reconsider this assessment. Some newbies may suffer great money loss after reading his posts and going into alts like BTU

[FlamingFingers]

I wonder why franky has green trust with his obvious shilling for chinese monopolist. Who gave him trust may be it's time to reconsider this assessment. Some newbies may suffer great money loss after reading his posts and going into alts like BTU

If 'some newbies' invest in BTU because some trusted members have said so, then they deserve it, lol.
I have anticipated that the first to respond on a thread about shilling like this one would be likely the biggest shills on this forum – franky1 and jonald_fyookball.
Nice thread, OP. Though, what can we, bitcoiners, do about this? How to 'fightback' shills? 

[jonald_fyookball]

I wonder why franky has green trust with his obvious shilling for chinese monopolist. Who gave him trust may be it's time to reconsider this assessment. Some newbies may suffer great money loss after reading his posts and going into alts like BTU

But this is not accurate.   You seem to be a little bit misinformed.

Franky has said numerous times he supports many scaling proposals.

Bitcoin unlimited is not an altcoin.  You cannot "go into it" unless if
you are talking about purchasing futures for a non existent version
of Bitcoin (which is a really bad idea).  But Franky never advocated
that, at least that I saw.

[FiendCoin]

I agree with the OP.  Letting shilling go unchecked is dangerous.

Usually you can tell the Bitcoin shills because they will only support one single scaling proposal or roadmap like a zealot.

I can agree with this to some extent.

I wonder why franky has green trust with his obvious shilling for chinese monopolist. Who gave him trust may be it's time to reconsider this assessment. Some newbies may suffer great money loss after reading his posts and going into alts like BTU

If 'some newbies' invest in BTU because some trusted members have said so, then they deserve it, lol.
I have anticipated that the first to respond on a thread about shilling like this one would be likely the biggest shills on this forum – franky1 and jonald_fyookball.
Nice thread, OP. Though, what can we, bitcoiners, do about this? How to 'fightback' shills?  

Spread the knowledge of shilling/trolling and keep track of the shills and their habits. When you can, out them when they post.

Add to my thread here and refer it to people who might not know.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1879789.0

[FiendCoin]

I asked franky1 to stop trolling this thread, he kept doing it and created a messy post in the process so it was deleted.

[Iranus]

Spread the knowledge of shilling/trolling and keep track of the shills and their habits. When you can, out them when they post.

Add to my thread here and refer it to people who might not know.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1879789.0

OP, let's review your recent scaling-related posts before this thread:

Shilling on Bitcointalk has moved to epic levels and I’m tired of it. Battling these shill/trolls is like a part-time job with no pay and little reward. Any newbie coming here for information will have problems discerning what’s true due to these shysters. Instead of outright censorship, as a public service, I offer the Bitcoin Shill Force List!

Anti-Core, anti-Blockstream, pro-Bitcoin Unlimited/alternate client (classic, XT, EC, EXT Blocks, etc.), or Alt coin shills:

franky1 (alex.BTC?)
jonald_fyookball (also shills on Reddit)
iamnotback (thinks he’s a programmer, haughty, Alt coin shill, 24/7 posting?)
kiklo (angry, rude)
cryptoanarchist

Lets see how long before the shills come to defend Emperor Wu.

Congratulations, you're the 3rd or maybe 4th shill alt to call me stupid today, just brilliant.

Pat yourself on the back and keep up the good work!

Shills going to shill until they can't and then they resort to name calling smh..

Unlike you, I don't get paid to post, I do it for the lols so I don't care what anyone thinks. I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything unlike you and your shill buddies.

I just like to point out the bullshit shills as a public service  Grin

So says the franky1 alt account  Cheesy

There is no point in arguing with you about anything because you are a paid shill.

Point in fact, if you are pro decentralization you would be anti BU.

Where you stand is well documented, that's why people know you as a shill, its the only explanation why you post the bullshit that you do.

And finally, the most ironic of all:

People notice your name because you keep posting the SAME bullshit over and over, again and again, hour after hour, day after day, on and on and on...

I'm not here to use any ad hominems against you or personally insult you, but it seems like you haven't actually argued anywhere at all in favour of Core or against BU.  You have only relentlessly called everyone else a shill, over and over, again and again, hour after hour, day after day, on and on and on...

It really is getting a bit boring.  I was quite in favour of Core and still am but I don't let my own biases portray everyone else as evil or view myself as the great saviour of Bitcoin or something.

[Wind_FURY]

opposing a view is different from shilling.

That is true. But opposing a view is also the favorite strategy of shills to use to derail the establishment, spread misinformation and get the less informed to start agreeing with the opposing side.

For your information, I do not think you are a shill. If you are I do not care. I am learning from your posts and I try to get the others' feedback on them.

[Nagadota]

I really think we should consider how relevant it is that someone might be a shill.

We have no way of proving whether or not anyone is a shill on the forum.  It's basically impossible, and if I'm wrong about that the important thing is that we haven't found it out yet.

If someone is a shill and they make technical or valid arguments for either side, which many people on Core and BU sides who are strongly in favour of each do, then for me all it's doing is helping me to think about both sides.

If the argument is actually worthless, you should start trusting the intelligence of the ordinary person who can conclude that instead of assuming that they're stupid.

[btc_angela]

I really think we should consider how relevant it is that someone might be a shill.

We have no way of proving whether or not anyone is a shill on the forum.  It's basically impossible, and if I'm wrong about that the important thing is that we haven't found it out yet.

If someone is a shill and they make technical or valid arguments for either side, which many people on Core and BU sides who are strongly in favour of each do, then for me all it's doing is helping me to think about both sides.

If the argument is actually worthless, you should start trusting the intelligence of the ordinary person who can conclude that instead of assuming that they're stupid.

Yeah. There's no way to prove someone is really a paid shill in this forum so I doubt we can do anything about it. Once thing I noticed though is that its always a newbie account that will start a new thread to create FUD in favor or something or someone's agenda. And I guess, just used our better judgement not to believed them so that eventually the thread they started will eventually died out.

[DooMAD]

The only way to counter a shill is to refute the arguments they present using reasoned debate.  If you are unable to accomplish this and can only resort to calling them a shill and other names, you have failed and let them go unchecked.  Stop crying shill and actually debunk the arguments they make if you believe them to be so obviously wrong.  It shouldn't be difficult if you have reason and logic on your side.

Usually when I see people use that word, I naturally assume they have no valid points to make.  This is often the juncture at which the baseless finger pointing and character assassinations commence and I know for certain that they've lost the argument.

Why is it in the so-called "communications era" or "information age", people are so incapable of communicating information?  Clearly it's easier just to dismiss all ideas you disagree with by insulting the source of the idea, rather than discussing the pros and cons.  It's just laziness, impatience and quite possibly lack of a spine because you can't even defend your own standpoint before attacking others.

Now stop being weak and learn to debate things properly. 

[unamis76]

I like to believe that people have their own opinions and don't flame on purpose or that they aren't paid for doing so, however I cannot deny that it is probably quite trivial to create numerous accounts and/or have accounts being paid to distribute certain information and steer people in a particular way.

It's probably a good practice to "name and shame" people that are highly likely to be or are obvious shills. The problem is that people who strongly believe something might end up being confused with shills, so this isn't an easy task.

This thread and discussion is valuable, but unfortunately is on the wrong section, as this isn't really Bitcoin Discussion. Since this is a bit forum related, it would probably suit Meta.

I wonder why franky has green trust with his obvious shilling for chinese monopolist. Who gave him trust may be it's time to reconsider this assessment. Some newbies may suffer great money loss after reading his posts and going into alts like BTU

"BTU" does not exist. Only extremists acknowledge its supposed existence and those are the ones that do confuse newbies. Those are exactly the shills targeted with this thread.

The only way to counter a shill is to refute the arguments they present using reasoned debate.

This sums up things quite well.

[monsanto]

Good luck, I think you might be fighting a losing battle though. This connects in with the recent "fake news" debates everywhere. That's what I thought was funny about the presidential elections and the accusations that thousands of shill accounts were used by the russians, etc.  Even if that were the case, it seems like something very difficult to slow down. Perhaps the best we can do is make people more aware of it, so maybe your work will do some good after all. But it is hard for me to imagine a future where AI doesn't make the shill game even harder to control.

[FiendCoin]

Spread the knowledge of shilling/trolling and keep track of the shills and their habits. When you can, out them when they post.

Add to my thread here and refer it to people who might not know.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1879789.0

OP, let's review your recent scaling-related posts before this thread:

Shilling on Bitcointalk has moved to epic levels and I’m tired of it. Battling these shill/trolls is like a part-time job with no pay and little reward. Any newbie coming here for information will have problems discerning what’s true due to these shysters. Instead of outright censorship, as a public service, I offer the Bitcoin Shill Force List!

Anti-Core, anti-Blockstream, pro-Bitcoin Unlimited/alternate client (classic, XT, EC, EXT Blocks, etc.), or Alt coin shills:

franky1 (alex.BTC?)
jonald_fyookball (also shills on Reddit)
iamnotback (thinks he’s a programmer, haughty, Alt coin shill, 24/7 posting?)
kiklo (angry, rude)
cryptoanarchist

Lets see how long before the shills come to defend Emperor Wu.

Congratulations, you're the 3rd or maybe 4th shill alt to call me stupid today, just brilliant.

Pat yourself on the back and keep up the good work!

Shills going to shill until they can't and then they resort to name calling smh..

Unlike you, I don't get paid to post, I do it for the lols so I don't care what anyone thinks. I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything unlike you and your shill buddies.

I just like to point out the bullshit shills as a public service  Grin

So says the franky1 alt account  Cheesy

There is no point in arguing with you about anything because you are a paid shill.

Point in fact, if you are pro decentralization you would be anti BU.

Where you stand is well documented, that's why people know you as a shill, its the only explanation why you post the bullshit that you do.

And finally, the most ironic of all:

People notice your name because you keep posting the SAME bullshit over and over, again and again, hour after hour, day after day, on and on and on...

I'm not here to use any ad hominems against you or personally insult you, but it seems like you haven't actually argued anywhere at all in favour of Core or against BU.  You have only relentlessly called everyone else a shill, over and over, again and again, hour after hour, day after day, on and on and on...

It really is getting a bit boring.  I was quite in favour of Core and still am but I don't let my own biases portray everyone else as evil or view myself as the great saviour of Bitcoin or something.

I think you missed the point of my recent posts. I am TIRED of the shills and trying to shine a light on them. So what is you plan, sit back and let them keep spewing the same garbage over and over?

The only way to counter a shill is to refute the arguments they present using reasoned debate.  If you are unable to accomplish this and can only resort to calling them a shill and other names, you have failed and let them go unchecked.  Stop crying shill and actually debunk the arguments they make if you believe them to be so obviously wrong.  It shouldn't be difficult if you have reason and logic on your side.

Usually when I see people use that word, I naturally assume they have no valid points to make.  This is often the juncture at which the baseless finger pointing and character assassinations commence and I know for certain that they've lost the argument.

Why is it in the so-called "communications era" or "information age", people are so incapable of communicating information?  Clearly it's easier just to dismiss all ideas you disagree with by insulting the source of the idea, rather than discussing the pros and cons.  It's just laziness, impatience and quite possibly lack of a spine because you can't even defend your own standpoint before attacking others.

Now stop being weak and learn to debate things properly. 

You cannot debate a shill, they don't quit or give up they just keep posting half-truths or outright lies or twisting whatever information they can to try and keep arguing. You can not convince a shill or "beat" them at their own game. The only thing that you can do is keep pointing out that they are shilling to let others know. I would like like a real discussion but its not possible with shills. I know its tedious but check the post history of the known shills and you will see what I mean.

I wonder why franky has green trust with his obvious shilling for chinese monopolist. Who gave him trust may be it's time to reconsider this assessment. Some newbies may suffer great money loss after reading his posts and going into alts like BTU

But this is not accurate.   You seem to be a little bit misinformed.

Franky has said numerous times he supports many scaling proposals.

Bitcoin unlimited is not an altcoin.  You cannot "go into it" unless if
you are talking about purchasing futures for a non existent version
of Bitcoin (which is a really bad idea).  But Franky never advocated
that, at least that I saw.

He only supports big block proposals because he is a big block shill. He is also a anti-core, anti-blockstream shill who likes to lump all core devs in with blockstream and likes to spread conspiracy theories about them.

Good luck, I think you might be fighting a losing battle though. This connects in with the recent "fake news" debates everywhere. That's what I thought was funny about the presidential elections and the accusations that thousands of shill accounts were used by the russians, etc.  Even if that were the case, it seems like something very difficult to slow down. Perhaps the best we can do is make people more aware of it, so maybe your work will do some good after all. But it is hard for me to imagine a future where AI doesn't make the shill game even harder to control.

This is a lot of work, thanks. I'm going to keep trying but you might be right, a losing battle.

[HustlingWeedToker]

Is it not near impossible to track a shill on a forum where so many accounts are available at a small price?

Or creation of such accounts.

There is a lot of dangerous in the world.. and your shills are not a danger to people with electrical signals to their brains.

Live and let live.

[jonald_fyookball]

He only supports big block proposals because he is a big block shill. 

Is someone allowed to support big block proposals and not be a shill?

[FiendCoin]

He only supports big block proposals because he is a big block shill. 

Is someone allowed to support big block proposals and not be a shill?

Yes they can, and I don't have a problem with that.

I have a problem with people who only support big blocks, spew anti-core rhetoric and conspiracy theories, and ignores the core road map which calls for bigger blocks when they are necessary and can be done safely.

I have a problem with people who want to endanger the Bitcoin network with reckless and unnecessary politics because of hurt feelings or whatever the case may be.

[jonald_fyookball]

He only supports big block proposals because he is a big block shill. 

Is someone allowed to support big block proposals and not be a shill?

Yes they can, and I don't have a problem with that.

I have a problem with people who only support big blocks, spew anti-core rhetoric and conspiracy theories, and ignores the core road map which calls for bigger blocks when they are necessary and can be done safely.

I have a problem with people who want to endanger the Bitcoin network with reckless and unnecessary politics because of hurt feelings or whatever the case may be.

Bigger blocks have been necessary for a while.  The proof is the long confirmation times and high fees that have emerged recently.  Regardless of whether you think this is because of spam or not, bigger blocks are necessary.

They can be done safely.  Gavin already did testing on 8mb blocks and there are many ways to solve the QH issues.

Does bringing up these points make me a shill?

[FiendCoin]

He only supports big block proposals because he is a big block shill.  

Is someone allowed to support big block proposals and not be a shill?

Yes they can, and I don't have a problem with that.

I have a problem with people who only support big blocks, spew anti-core rhetoric and conspiracy theories, and ignores the core road map which calls for bigger blocks when they are necessary and can be done safely.

I have a problem with people who want to endanger the Bitcoin network with reckless and unnecessary politics because of hurt feelings or whatever the case may be.

Bigger blocks have been necessary for a while.  The proof is the long confirmation times and high fees that have emerged recently.  Regardless of whether you think this is because of spam or not, bigger blocks are necessary.

They can be done safely.  Gavin already did testing on 8mb blocks and there are many ways to solve the QH issues.

Does bringing up these points make me a shill?

If we were following core's road map we would not have long confirmation times or high fees, so no, big blocks are not necessary right now but implementing a plan is.

Regurgitating your false points over and over, along with your single-minded big block obsession and getting me to argue with you again is what makes you a shill.

There is nothing wrong with core's road map and NO ONE had a problem with it when it was released. Politics in Bitcoin is the problem, just look at litecoin.

Jonald, deleting my post, really?

If core's road map is bad, why is it being supported on litecoin by the same miners who claim to hate it on Bitcoin?

Really? The truth hurts, don't it?

[jonald_fyookball]

If we were following core's road map we would not have long confirmation times or high fees, so no, big blocks are not necessary right now but implementing a plan is.

Regurgitating your false points over and over, along with your single-minded big block obsession and getting me to argue with you again is what makes you a shill.
 

You mean if 95% of miners just went along segwit insted of the 35% that actually are?  That's almost in the 'and if i had wheels i'd be a wagon' category. 

I repeat points because they are so smple but people still don't get them.  The block size IS the problem here.  You somehow think its not and we need this convoluted plan from Core.
That's fine.  You're entitled to your belief.   

[FiendCoin]

If we were following core's road map we would not have long confirmation times or high fees, so no, big blocks are not necessary right now but implementing a plan is.

Regurgitating your false points over and over, along with your single-minded big block obsession and getting me to argue with you again is what makes you a shill.
 

You mean if 95% of miners just went along segwit insted of the 35% that actually are?  That's almost in the 'and if i had wheels i'd be a wagon' category. 

I repeat points because they are so smple but people still don't get them.  The block size IS the problem here.  You somehow think its not and we need this convoluted plan from Core.
That's fine.  You're entitled to your belief.   

Your argument is pointless, all the miners will soon be on SegWit (Bitcoin) like they are on litecoin, only politics has stopped progress.

Core's "convoluted" plan has been embraced, I guess all the miners and multiple communities of cryptos are stupid huh? I guess you're smarter than everyone else?

And you're not a shill right? 

[jonald_fyookball]

Your argument is pointless, all the miners will soon be on SegWit (Bitcoin) like they are on litecoin, 

I guess we will see, won't we?