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Author Topic: Will LN Hubs require a Banking License / Banking Cartels will take over Crypto  (Read 1480 times)
kiklo (OP)
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April 26, 2017, 08:03:42 AM
 #21

Well, as I already said, I'm trying to find out for myself whether to be positive or not towards LN, and with all the political disinformation and hype it is very hard to make up one's mind on objective information.  I think there are a lot of positive elements with LN, but "deep in my bones" I feel some issues, and two of these are:

- it looks to me that economies of scale will make LN hubs evolve towards a wheel and spokes kind of structure, because the more BTC you can lock up in many channels with many customers, the more chances you have to be able to transmit a lot of transactions through them, which will essentially give you the ratio between the profitable LN fee and the on-chain fee.  So I wonder if this sentiment is correct, and has been studied, or if it is not something to worry about ; and whether it is a problem or not.

- however, what worries me most, is that fact that there is not enough room on the block chain to settle large parts of the LN network, if it needs to settle.  As such, your "right to settle" is a right on paper, but could very well be thwarted by the practical limit of the room on the chain.  In other words, in as much as the LN allows to scale to a large multitude of the number of transactions on chain, it seems to me that this large factor is also at the same time a serious security risk, because it can never settle most of the links on time.  However, this is maybe also a gut feeling that is not justified in practice.  

So I'm not clear as to whether I should be in favor of the LN or not (not that it would make any difference Smiley ), because I can't wrap my mind enough around what it really is going to be.



It is not just a gut feeling , you hit the nail on the head and that is even mentioned as a security risk in the LN Whitepaper, Page 50.
(It is one way to steal BTC from the LN Locks, by blocking transactions until the timelocks expire and placing your transaction in the queue ahead of the other parties.)
https://lightning.network/lightning-network-paper.pdf

Quote
9.2    Forced Expiration Spam
Forced expiration of many transactions may be the greatest systemic risk
when using the Lightning Network.  If a malicious participant creates many
channels and forces them all to expire at once, these may overwhelm block
data capacity, forcing expiration and broadcast to the blockchain.  The re-
sult  would  be  mass  spam  on  the  bitcoin  network.   The  spam  may  delay
transactions to the point where other locktimed transactions become valid.


 Cool

FYI:
It is the main reason the transaction capacity should have been increased before introducing Segwit & LN.   Tongue
Amph
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April 26, 2017, 08:12:21 AM
 #22

We need to make the network ready for all those hundreds of millions of potential users otherwise it will cripple when we have an influx of new people. To prevent is better than to cure.

On the other hand we need to focus on the path in front of us rather than worry about what's 30 miles ahead.

Raising the 1mb limit TODAY is more important than being ready for hundreds of millions of users



aren't we trying to increase it in the best way to allow all those millionf of user in the future to use bitcoin without paying expensive fee, isn't that the point of this mess that is raising with the block limit?

the only question now is, is the current block limit hindering a greater adoption than what we have right now? if we had a bigger block already, maybe we could have many more users that use bitcoin, which would bring a much better adoption

but maybe not because people that use bitcoin don't even know what the block limit is, and for most of them paying $1 in fee would also look normal
franky1
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April 26, 2017, 08:44:53 AM
Last edit: April 26, 2017, 08:59:02 AM by franky1
 #23

We need to make the network ready for all those hundreds of millions of potential users otherwise it will cripple when we have an influx of new people. To prevent is better than to cure.

On the other hand we need to focus on the path in front of us rather than worry about what's 30 miles ahead.

Raising the 1mb limit TODAY is more important than being ready for hundreds of millions of users



aren't we trying to increase it in the best way to allow all those millionf of user in the future to use bitcoin without paying expensive fee, isn't that the point of this mess that is raising with the block limit?

the only question now is, is the current block limit hindering a greater adoption than what we have right now? if we had a bigger block already, maybe we could have many more users that use bitcoin, which would bring a much better adoption

but maybe not because people that use bitcoin don't even know what the block limit is, and for most of them paying $1 in fee would also look normal

$1 fee should never be "normal"

it cuts out third world utility.

( v general note to everyone 'you' . not the people in the quotes above 'you' v )
if you think third world will just use LN, you would be wrong because it requires $1 to deposit into a multisig (open LN channel) onchain
thats like real world end user paying 20 hours labour to 'open an account'.. if you compared it to a bank

the only reason the devs want people to think $1 is normal is to charge 1cent -10cents per LN so that they can still say "but its cheaper than onchain by 10x-100x, which is commercial greed mindset.

much like they are ALREADY saying "but its cheaper than western union"

when devs remove things that control fee's with code.. and instead devs just shout "just pay more"  they are no longer thinking as coders, but as commercial business men. which is wrong on so many levels


and if you think random "users" will get a share of them 1c-10c LN channel hop fee's forget it... and only remember who controls the DNS routing gets to decide which path the routes are laid out. for users.
infact i can see rusty russel and other LN teams actually 'renting' DNS listings as another money earner. EG a 'paid for' directory

stop thinking with a western world brain or a fox news brain and try scenarios based on the real world

oh and dont try looking for the most expensive transfer method to then say "but bitcoin is cheaper than..."
bitcoin should not be like other banking services.
bitcoin is meant to beat banking services by having no barrier of entry

many countries can transfer for far far far cheaper than western union.

as for the "millions/billions by midnight" or the "gigabyte blocks by midnight". seriously ground yourself to the realities of today

I DO NOT TRADE OR ACT AS ESCROW ON THIS FORUM EVER.
Please do your own research & respect what is written here as both opinion & information gleaned from experience. many people replying with insults but no on-topic content substance, automatically are 'facepalmed' and yawned at
The One
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April 26, 2017, 11:57:23 AM
 #24

We need to make the network ready for all those hundreds of millions of potential users otherwise it will cripple when we have an influx of new people. To prevent is better than to cure.

On the other hand we need to focus on the path in front of us rather than worry about what's 30 miles ahead.

Raising the 1mb limit TODAY is more important than being ready for hundreds of millions of users



The idea that seggy and LN will then attract hundreds of millions of potential users just like that is hilarious. Blocksize can go up to meet the demand now. What may happen in 10 years time is not a priority.

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........What is C?.........
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...........ICO            Dec 1st – Dec 30th............
       ............Open            Dec 1st- Dec 30th............
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AngryDwarf
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April 26, 2017, 12:00:36 PM
 #25

Lightning network risks section lists more bad movies than the horror channel.

Bitcoin developers should be working in the interests of the bitcoin network as a whole, not serving the interests of a 2nd layer proposal.

Scaling and transaction rate: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=532.msg6306#msg6306
Do not allow demand to exceed capacity. Do not allow mempools to forget transactions. Relay all transactions. Eventually confirm all transactions.
The One
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April 26, 2017, 12:34:22 PM
 #26

Charlie Lee has tricked the LTC miners into agreeing to activate segwit for LTC,

Charlie Lee is promising Larger Blocksizes when LTC blocks are half full, the Miners are hoping he keeps his word.
IE: In the below pic , Charlie Lee plays Lucy, and the LTC miners play the bald kid.  Cheesy



Now the BTC Core Shills will try and use this to force the BTC community into accepting segwit.
We will see how that plays out.

LN Hubs will take deposits, (Lock your Funds up Onchain) ,
and then make payments using their offchain representations of your real funds.

Sounds an awful lot like a bank. In fact they will charge fees and penalties, sounds even more like a bank now.  Wink

Here is the issue Boys & Girls,
You can't just open a bank up because you feel like it in most countries.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banking_license

Quote
Most state legislatures in the United States ban general corporations from accepting banker's deposits, which ban tends to cover any service whereby a general corporation acts as a funds drawee which transfers current funds (i.e. credit payable upon demand) to make payments as a substitute for coins on behalf of an account holder.

Quote
Licenses are typically issued by a national banking regulator to applicant corporations that meet its banking requirements. The requirements may include minimum capital requirements, minimum number of directors, residence of shareholders, spread of shareholdings, disclosure of beneficial shareholders, besides other matters. These requirements may differ between jurisdictions, and may differ depending on the type of license being sought. Some jurisdictions, sometimes called tax havens, have a reputation for lax or corrupt standards in bank licensing, granting a license, for example, to shell companies, or to companies with nominee directors, or with dummy shareholders, etc.[citation needed]

The granting of the license may involve a long, complex and expensive procedure, which may depend on the type of bank license being sought. There are a number of sectors in which banks may be involved. The general bank license allows a bank to engage in all banking activities, such as retail banking, merchant acquiring, cash management, asset management and trading. An applicant can apply for a limited banking license, such as an offshore banking license.

Once the LN Hubs are in place, the Banking Cartels will have their Politicians pass a Law stating LN Hubs are acting as a Bank by taking deposits and making payments.
This will require all LN Hubs to get a Bank License, if they wish to continue, which most will not have the resources to and it is a lengthily process either way for those that do have the resources.

During this Time the Banking Cartels will buy up the existing LN hubs or start their own, and why not they already have a bank license.
In a Nutshell,
this is how they will completely take over crypto from all segwit activated coins and make sure financial slavery continues for your children's children and beyond.  
Satoshi's dream will be officially dead.  Tongue

 Cool

That is the bad side of the segwits lightning network. But we can no longer escape this kind of reality in the bitcoin network. It may be BU or Segwit both of them have a dream of monopolizing bitcoin. With this we can only accept the outcome of this matter and continue to use bitcoin. If bitcoin will become centralized then at least we will continue to earn and gain profit.

Really. Has it ever occurred to you that anyone can create BitcoinSN (Satoshi Nakatomo) and remove the centralised element and create decentralised version of sidechain, LN or whatever. The "believers" will then dump Bitcoin and buy BitcoinSN at a low price.

..C..
.....................
........What is C?.........
..............
...........ICO            Dec 1st – Dec 30th............
       ............Open            Dec 1st- Dec 30th............
...................ANN thread      Bounty....................

Paashaas
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April 26, 2017, 01:08:13 PM
 #27

We need to make the network ready for all those hundreds of millions of potential users otherwise it will cripple when we have an influx of new people. To prevent is better than to cure.

On the other hand we need to focus on the path in front of us rather than worry about what's 30 miles ahead.

Raising the 1mb limit TODAY is more important than being ready for hundreds of millions of users



The idea that seggy and LN will then attract hundreds of millions of potential users just like that is hilarious. Blocksize can go up to meet the demand now. What may happen in 10 years time is not a priority.

Lightning network risks section lists more bad movies than the horror channel.

Bitcoin developers should be working in the interests of the bitcoin network as a whole, not serving the interests of a 2nd layer proposal.

You dont understand what LN and those other side-chains can do, and did you know they're all being designed around Segwit for obvious reasons? You dont know how big Bitcoin's potential is and how to anticipate on it by thinking big.

Do you guys really think Bitcoin can go mainstream with just bigger blocks? 2mb 10mb 50mb 100mb 250mb 500mb it's not enough by far if you want to fck up this entire fiat system Shocked. If you want to scale on-chain to mainstream you need atleast min 1GiG blocks...wablief Lips sealed Now you know why dev's are making l2 projects.

If Satoshi disigned Bitcoin only as a store of value then they didn't named it as 'Cash system', do i need to explain what a 'Cash system' is? Go read Satoshi's white paper in particular the 'References' at the end. You dont read that stuff just for fun it's high lvl of information which makes things more clear before you talking dogshit next time ok?

I advice you to read all of that, Bitcoin is the result of all that knowledge combined.
The One
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April 26, 2017, 01:39:52 PM
 #28

We need to make the network ready for all those hundreds of millions of potential users otherwise it will cripple when we have an influx of new people. To prevent is better than to cure.

On the other hand we need to focus on the path in front of us rather than worry about what's 30 miles ahead.

Raising the 1mb limit TODAY is more important than being ready for hundreds of millions of users



The idea that seggy and LN will then attract hundreds of millions of potential users just like that is hilarious. Blocksize can go up to meet the demand now. What may happen in 10 years time is not a priority.

Lightning network risks section lists more bad movies than the horror channel.

Bitcoin developers should be working in the interests of the bitcoin network as a whole, not serving the interests of a 2nd layer proposal.

You dont understand what LN and those other side-chains can do, and did you know they're all being designed around Segwit for obvious reasons? You dont know how big Bitcoin's potential is and how to anticipate on it by thinking big.

Do you guys really think Bitcoin can go mainstream with just bigger blocks? 2mb 10mb 50mb 100mb 250mb 500mb it's not enough by far if you want to fck up this entire fiat system Shocked. If you want to scale on-chain to mainstream you need atleast min 1GiG blocks...wablief Lips sealed Now you know why dev's are making l2 projects.

If Satoshi disigned Bitcoin only as a store of value then they didn't named it as 'Cash system', do i need to explain what a 'Cash system' is? Go read Satoshi's white paper in particular the 'References' at the end. You dont read that stuff just for fun it's high lvl of information which makes things more clear before you talking dogshit next time ok?

I advice you to read all of that, Bitcoin is the result of all that knowledge combined.

I certainly don't need your advice, especially from a numbwit. I have read Satoshi's whitepaper before getting involved. You don't seriously think i would get involve in anything without understanding it in the first place. Basically you had no counter-argument, just "insults" which made me laugh.

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........What is C?.........
..............
...........ICO            Dec 1st – Dec 30th............
       ............Open            Dec 1st- Dec 30th............
...................ANN thread      Bounty....................

spazzdla
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April 26, 2017, 03:10:29 PM
 #29

I don't get the difference between segwit and BU.. both seem to just be a block size increase but segwit just moves the extra data...
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April 26, 2017, 04:20:55 PM
 #30

The idea that seggy and LN will then attract hundreds of millions of potential users just like that is hilarious.

That's another question I have: when reading discussions, I have the impression that segwit and LN are about the same.  What I understood is that segwit is a kind of "bug correction" in the original protocol, called transaction malleability, that makes it impossible or difficult (?) to have the LN on top of it.  But I have a question: is segwit just that, or is there much more ?  What exactly does segwit do in fact ?  I have an understanding, but only limited, that part of what's now in a bitcoin transaction, is going to "external data" or something of the kind, and that only an essential part of it remains on the block chain, but it is not very clear.  However, I don't see what that has to do with 'transaction malleability' ; and I don't understand entirely what was the problem with transaction malleability (apart maybe the fact that it is difficult to sign transactions, containing transaction hashes, if they are not on chain, because their hash can still change on chain, and the off-line signature would then be invalid, is that it ?)
d5000
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April 26, 2017, 07:59:09 PM
 #31

LN HUBs, will not be directing transmitting the BTC, they will be sending an OFFCHAIN Representation of the Value of a BTC (A LN Note or Token)
As such they are operating as a Bank , allowing deposits and letting people transact with LN / Bank Notes.
So a Money Transmitter License is not suitable for an LN Hub, the only license that will work legally is a Bank License.

That's actually an interesting view. Good stuff for specialized lawyers, I suppose Wink But I doubt the money transmitter-bank distinction exists in all countries. LN hubs could simply settle in the countries with the most liberal regulation.

The problem is relevant, however, for US citizens that want to provide "altruistic LN micro-hubs" for a decentralized LN and could get forced to pay for a license they couldn't afford. That would probably also be the case in other countries with similarly strict regulations.

Quote
Once that has become law of the land, the next step in the plan  is to cause a price spike in transaction fees where only they and the rich find it affordable to
conduct ONCHAIN transactions

I doubt that would work. There is not only LN, there are also sidechains as a possible backup mechanism. And, obviously, altcoins (which, with Segwit could simply act as sidechains via atomic cross-chain trading).



- it looks to me that economies of scale will make LN hubs evolve towards a wheel and spokes kind of structure, because the more BTC you can lock up in many channels with many customers, the more chances you have to be able to transmit a lot of transactions through them, which will essentially give you the ratio between the profitable LN fee and the on-chain fee.  So I wonder if this sentiment is correct, and has been studied, or if it is not something to worry about ; and whether it is a problem or not.

The answer to that problem I heard from LN supporters is that there would be lots of "altruistic" hubs - large BTC holders that would offer LN transactions for free or only for a small fee to incentive mass usage and grow the value of their Bitcoins. I think here we must wait and see if that happens or not. If what kiklo says is true (see above in my answer) and they require a kind of license then there would be probably less such "altruistic hubs" available and the network would be more centralized.

Quote
- however, what worries me most, is that fact that there is not enough room on the block chain to settle large parts of the LN network, if it needs to settle.  As such, your "right to settle" is a right on paper, but could very well be thwarted by the practical limit of the room on the chain.  In other words, in as much as the LN allows to scale to a large multitude of the number of transactions on chain, it seems to me that this large factor is also at the same time a serious security risk, because it can never settle most of the links on time.  However, this is maybe also a gut feeling that is not justified in practice.

As I already said I consider your concern to be valid and I share it. A possible solution could be a three-layer-model, where LN is the third layer above a second-layer technology like pegged sidechains or extension blocks.

The problem is that neither decentrally pegged sidechains nor extension blocks are currently possible without code changes in Bitcoin Core and the changes are controversial. But I think that would be the ideal way for Bitcoin to scale - reserve on-chain capacity for large transactions, sidechains for the smaller ones, and LN (working "above" a sidechain, not the main chain) for microtransactions like the often-cited coffee.

Edit: If atomic cross-chain trading gets possible (with Segwit or another malleability fix), there may be a way to use an Ethereum-like technology (with turing-complete script language) for an "Altcoin as a sidechain" model. The peg mechanism would then be managed by the altcoin chain, not by Bitcoin.

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Stringer Bell
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April 27, 2017, 01:12:03 AM
 #32

BTC Core shills will force people to use SegWit? Tell me, how do those people force other people to do anything? The
only people I see that are forcing others to do something is the BU miners with their hash power. This is a bunch of crap, and you know it.


Exactly, hey OP - you can hang yourself with your pants, quit wasting our time.
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April 27, 2017, 01:22:24 AM
 #33

I don't get the difference between segwit and BU.. both seem to just be a block size increase but segwit just moves the extra data...

Segwit was sold as a soft fork... that was really the only reason it ever got traction.  We simply would have raise the blocksize
2 years ago if not for the narrative 'HF are bad'.

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