A bitcoin user group that is open and expresses the will of the community

[aantonop]

why the big hard-on for organizing and controlling? just go into politics, its a good fit since I already don't trust you.

The organizing and controlling is already happening just without any of your input. You can pretend it isn't or that those organizations don't have power, or that they actually listen to or care about your opinion. You'd be wrong.

I am however interested in your opinion and proposals for building a good representative association. I tried to work within the existing systems first. Now I'm trying to do something else instead. I don't want you to trust me, or any individual. I want people to trust in a certain process that is transparent. I don't trust most people with power, that's why I prefer to trust well formed organizations, with good process and transparency.

This is not a choice between do something and do-nothing. Something is already being done in terms of "representing" the users, and it has credibility whether you like it or not. What it lacks is transparency or any authority.

If you don't believe in any form of organization, that's fine. This certainly wouldn't appeal to you. However, if you do believe in some form of organization, just not this one, please tell me how to improve this in a way that would make it more trustworthy for you.

[repentance]

Australia probably wouldn't work as an alternative to the US.  You'd run into problems with the structure you're proposing because you'd need independent oversight of the voting process. 

You'd effectively be creating a General Meeting or Special Resolution situation (which invokes quorum requirements) every time you put something to a membership vote and that would be a complete pain in the ass because you'd need to involve either a third party auditing firm - which costs money - or the Electoral Office (this is who generally oversees the voting process at Annual General Meetings/Special General Meetings of NFP organisations). 

Verifying ID could get messy too.  Third party ID services aren't free and either the organisation requiring verification needs to pay for the service (the usual case) or the aspiring member does.

[franky1]

why the big hard-on for organizing and controlling? just go into politics, its a good fit since I already don't trust you.

The organizing and controlling is already happening just without any of your input. You can pretend it isn't or that those organizations don't have power, or that they actually listen to or care about your opinion. You'd be wrong.

I am however interested in your opinion and proposals for building a good representative association. I tried to work within the existing systems first. Now I'm trying to do something else instead. I don't want you to trust me, or any individual. I want people to trust in a certain process that is transparent. I don't trust most people with power, that's why I prefer to trust well formed organizations, with good process and transparency.

This is not a choice between do something and do-nothing. Something is already being done in terms of "representing" the users, and it has credibility whether you like it or not. What it lacks is transparency or any authority.

If you don't believe in any form of organization, that's fine. This certainly wouldn't appeal to you. However, if you do believe in some form of organization, just not this one, please tell me how to improve this in a way that would make it more trustworthy for you.

how about you start a thread that asks people what they want. obviously you want some proper spokespeople for bitcoin that have a varied opinion compared to the elite elected members of bitcoinfoundation.

so instead of starting a whole new organisation purely to get members to vote for an elite elected few spokes people. how about just ask anyone and everyone if they want to become spokes people. to show off their skills and then paste their info in the media section of this forum or even request a totally new "topc" to be made on this forum. then the whole population of this forum can see the variety themselves and grab names/videos, statements that take their fancy. and use those contacts within their own projects/ local contacts with media/own websites.

[aantonop]

how about you start a thread that asks people what they want. obviously you want some proper spokespeople for bitcoin that have a varied opinion compared to the elite elected members of bitcoinfoundation.

so instead of starting a whole new organisation purely to get members to vote for an elite elected few spokes people. how about just ask anyone and everyone if they want to become spokes people. to show off their skills and then paste their info in the media section of this forum or even request a totally new "topc" to be made on this forum. then the whole population of this forum can see the variety themselves and grab names/videos, statements that take their fancy. and use those contacts within their own projects/ local contacts with media/own websites.

Franky,

The press center debacle is just a symptom, not the problem I am trying to solve. The bigger problem is a complete lack of accountability in the organizations that either claim or are widely seen as representing bitcoin. The press center debacle is only the latest example of that lack of accountability turning into tone-deaf decisions.

We fix the press center, and next week it is problems with the conference. Then what? We fix the conference, then it is problems with who talks to regulators (or if they should talk to regulators) and cuts "deals" for bitcoin. The week after that, one of these tone-deaf non-representatives ends up tstifying in front of Congress "on behalf of bitcoin". It will keep going on, and while some will say that this is not a problem or that they don't really represent anyone, that's not realistic.

That's why I felt the need to launch a user organization that is inclusive, transparent and much more representative. Patching the symptoms is not enough. This proposal strikes at the root of the problem - a handful of unaccountable organizations and their offshoots claiming to represent us.

[niko]

Interesting.

The technical issues will keep emerging as Bitcoin grows and evolves, and these issues will be global, nation-blind. The best way to address them is to concentrate resources in one entity, such as Bitcoin Foundation or any similar group. This ensures we don't waste resources by multiplying efforts.

I therefore propose that we keep discussing best ways to organize, but then organize - and incorporate - locally in each region. These groups could then communicate and coordinate as needed. I am currently in Canada, and would most likely join local group with the formalized membership and voting procedures.

Great suggestion on local chapters. I'd like to roll it all up into a global group, but localizing power is always better.

Disagree on not duplicating Foundation. They have vastly different goals and principles from this proposal. While this is not a "bash foundation" proposal, I think it is valuable to look at some of the areas where they are not responsive and fix those as "features" of an alternative organization

For the record, we agree on BF. I just brought them up as an example - granted, not a good one, but the only one. There is definitely plenty of room for people willing to work on addressing issues which are not likely to get attention from the current BF leadership. I also don't see any fundamental reasons for conflict, such as mutually exclusive goals. It's simply a matter of operating in different areas of the Bitcoin ecosystem. Ultimately, everyone involved wants transactions to keep getting verified and secured, and the advantages over other payment systems maintaned and strengthened.

[franky1]

how about you start a thread that asks people what they want. obviously you want some proper spokespeople for bitcoin that have a varied opinion compared to the elite elected members of bitcoinfoundation.

so instead of starting a whole new organisation purely to get members to vote for an elite elected few spokes people. how about just ask anyone and everyone if they want to become spokes people. to show off their skills and then paste their info in the media section of this forum or even request a totally new "topc" to be made on this forum. then the whole population of this forum can see the variety themselves and grab names/videos, statements that take their fancy. and use those contacts within their own projects/ local contacts with media/own websites.

Franky,

The press center debacle is just a symptom, not the problem I am trying to solve. The bigger problem is a complete lack of accountability in the organizations that either claim or are widely seen as representing bitcoin. The press center debacle is only the latest example of that lack of accountability turning into tone-deaf decisions.

We fix the press center, and next week it is problems with the conference. Then what? We fix the conference, then it is problems with who talks to regulators (or if they should talk to regulators) and cuts "deals" for bitcoin. The week after that, one of these tone-deaf non-representatives ends up tstifying in front of Congress "on behalf of bitcoin". It will keep going on, and while some will say that this is not a problem or that they don't really represent anyone, that's not realistic.

That's why I felt the need to launch a user organization that is inclusive, transparent and much more representative. Patching the symptoms is not enough. This proposal strikes at the root of the problem - a handful of unaccountable organizations and their offshoots claiming to represent us.

this is where you are meandering in the wrong direction.
bitcoin does not need representation, such as a CEO, leader. bitcoin needs lecturers and teachers to spread the message.

i dont want management of bitcoin, i want tutors to explain bitcoin to the layman.

representatives as you say are people that say i am the head of the bitcoin community. i wield power.

spokes people as i say are people that know what they are talking about and can help others understand.

if i want someone to speak out in congress or in parliament. then i would search ouut someone in parliament that atleast understands peoples freedoms and knows of bitcoin and has a open mind and get them to be a spokesmen.. not elect them as the leader of bitcoin incorporated.

as for the offshoots of unaccountability... forgive me for saying this. but isnt that called DECENTRALISATION. we need an information source not a leadership. pure and simple. a place to come to that can truly help people to learn about bitcoin from people that truly know what bitcoin is about that can help businesses set up API access to clients programs remotely from their website hosts. that can teach people and media the true ethos of bitcoin.

not a guy that says "i am Mr Bitcoin"

instead having a listing of guys in silicon valley that are creating business and want to help other businesses, guys in new yorks wall street that truly understand finance and exchanges, guys in asia that understand manufacturing and the supplychain that can work using bitcoin. guys in every country that have their own speciality that truly understand bitcoin.
that way there's always someone in each market, in each country that any of the community can use to be a spokesperson if a media story requiring certain topics around bitcoin to be answered. or be utilised to help expand bitcoin economy into the mainstream

not 4 special elected golden children of bitcoin with business cards saying they are CEO's and represent the nation of bitcoin, as if they are presidents of bitcoin

[libertine]

and what exactly will this user group do? what are its goals? what is its mission?

[Chakraball]

how about you start a thread that asks people what they want. obviously you want some proper spokespeople for bitcoin that have a varied opinion compared to the elite elected members of bitcoinfoundation.

so instead of starting a whole new organisation purely to get members to vote for an elite elected few spokes people. how about just ask anyone and everyone if they want to become spokes people. to show off their skills and then paste their info in the media section of this forum or even request a totally new "topc" to be made on this forum. then the whole population of this forum can see the variety themselves and grab names/videos, statements that take their fancy. and use those contacts within their own projects/ local contacts with media/own websites.

Franky,

The press center debacle is just a symptom, not the problem I am trying to solve. The bigger problem is a complete lack of accountability in the organizations that either claim or are widely seen as representing bitcoin. The press center debacle is only the latest example of that lack of accountability turning into tone-deaf decisions.

We fix the press center, and next week it is problems with the conference. Then what? We fix the conference, then it is problems with who talks to regulators (or if they should talk to regulators) and cuts "deals" for bitcoin. The week after that, one of these tone-deaf non-representatives ends up tstifying in front of Congress "on behalf of bitcoin". It will keep going on, and while some will say that this is not a problem or that they don't really represent anyone, that's not realistic.

That's why I felt the need to launch a user organization that is inclusive, transparent and much more representative. Patching the symptoms is not enough. This proposal strikes at the root of the problem - a handful of unaccountable organizations and their offshoots claiming to represent us.

this is where you are meandering in the wrong direction.
bitcoin does not need representation, such as a CEO, leader. bitcoin needs lecturers and teachers to spread the message.

i dont want management of bitcoin, i want tutors to explain bitcoin to the layman.

representatives as you say are people that say i am the head of the bitcoin community. i wield power.

spokes people as i say are people that know what they are talking about and can help others understand.

if i want someone to speak out in congress or in parliament. then i would search ouut someone in parliament that atleast understands peoples freedoms and knows of bitcoin and has a open mind and get them to be a spokesmen.. not elect them as the leader of bitcoin incorporated.

as for the offshoots of unaccountability... forgive me for saying this. but isnt that called DECENTRALISATION. we need an information source not a leadership. pure and simple. a place to come to that can truly help people to learn about bitcoin from people that truly know what bitcoin is about that can help businesses set up API access to clients programs remotely from their website hosts. that can teach people and media the true ethos of bitcoin.

not a guy that says "i am Mr Bitcoin"

instead having a listing of guys in silicon valley that are creating business and want to help other businesses, guys in new yorks wall street that truly understand finance and exchanges, guys in asia that understand manufacturing and the supplychain that can work using bitcoin. guys in every country that have their own speciality that truly understand bitcoin.
that way there's always someone in each market, in each country that any of the community can use to be a spokesperson if a media story requiring certain topics around bitcoin to be answered. or be utilised to help expand bitcoin economy into the mainstream

not 4 special elected golden children of bitcoin with business cards saying they are CEO's and represent the nation of bitcoin, as if they are presidents of bitcoin

                                                   "not a guy that says "i am Mr Bitcoin""

There already is one.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=191387.0

[aantonop]

The press and "traditional" institutions will seek out "representatives" of bitcoin. You can't stop them, you can't tell them they're not representative.

Instead of finding representatives, I want them to find a vast association of users, with local chapters. No "representatives" other than the users themselves. If the users want to elect spokespeople in different geographies or disciplines they will. If they'd rather express themselves via Wiki, they will. If they want to nominate an intelligent Q&A Eliza bot, they will.

I'm not suggesting replacing the current crop of board members who "represent" bitcoin, with a new crop of elected board members who "represent" bitcoin - as you will see in my proposal, the board members are only caretakers of the organization's maintenance and internal finances. If you want to call them something else, we can.

In fact, if a board is too odious, let's run the organization with a lawyer as executor of the bylaws. Someone who isn't even remotely related to bitcoin, but only acts as a legal custodian.

Again I am open to all suggestions - don't mistake this proposal for one that replaces one board with another, that would be a waste of time.

My main model for this are organizations like the Silicon Valley Linux User Group, or many of the other chapters that exist around the world: http://www.svlug.org/about.php

Fittingly and amusingly, they decided (internally) to stop electing "Presidents" and "Vice Presidents" in 1999 and instead only elect functional roles, like webmaster and events manager. The people in these roles do not have any authority or policy making power. They just run the stuff based on an ad-hoc group of volunteers who help them. But the members ultimately direct the group through votes and meetings. That is the kind of association I'm looking to build.

[Wilikon]

The press and "traditional" institutions will seek out "representatives" of bitcoin. You can't stop them, you can't tell them they're not representative.

Instead of finding representatives, I want them to find a vast association of users, with local chapters. No "representatives" other than the users themselves. If the users want to elect spokespeople in different geographies or disciplines they will. If they'd rather express themselves via Wiki, they will. If they want to nominate an intelligent Q&A Eliza bot, they will.

I'm not suggesting replacing the current crop of board members who "represent" bitcoin, with a new crop of elected board members who "represent" bitcoin - as you will see in my proposal, the board members are only caretakers of the organization's maintenance and internal finances. If you want to call them something else, we can.

In fact, if a board is too odious, let's run the organization with a lawyer as executor of the bylaws. Someone who isn't even remotely related to bitcoin, but only acts as a legal custodian.

Again I am open to all suggestions - don't mistake this proposal for one that replaces one board with another, that would be a waste of time.

My main model for this are organizations like the Silicon Valley Linux User Group, or many of the other chapters that exist around the world: http://www.svlug.org/about.php

Fittingly and amusingly, they decided (internally) to stop electing "Presidents" and "Vice Presidents" in 1999 and instead only elect functional roles, like webmaster and events manager. The people in these roles do not have any authority or policy making power. They just run the stuff based on an ad-hoc group of volunteers who help them. But the members ultimately direct the group through votes and meetings. That is the kind of association I'm looking to build.

Instead of putting $1000 in your 501, why not start a youtube channel and push your talent so the world can see. Promote bitcoin the way you see fit and have a clear vision of what you want. Sure crowdsourcing for idea and membership on a thread or on reddit is fun, but without the professional tools and $$ it it will be painfully slow. So why not have much more visibility? get a little cam or your iphone, a microphone and just hit the streets and ask people stuff.. Then you talk about bitcoin. You should watch some Tv evangelist shows. You don't have to believe but the tools of communication are the same if you want to be a bitcoin evangelist. As soon as you do this you create a brand and the "laws of attraction" will start kick in.

The concept of bitcoin is so big it is hard for all of us to let go the old paradigm. In the end bitcoin will define itself as it is math, without the need for PR. I understand we are not there yet.

[charleshoskinson]

Alright how about we work on developing a solid mission statement and organizational values?

[aantonop]

Instead of putting $1000 in your 501, why not start a youtube channel and push your talent so the world can see. Promote bitcoin the way you see fit and have a clear vision of what you want. Sure crowdsourcing for idea and membership on a thread or on reddit is fun, but without the professional tools and $$ it it will be painfully slow. So why not have much more visibility? get a little cam or your iphone, a microphone and just hit the streets and ask people stuff.. Then you talk about bitcoin. You should watch some Tv evangelist shows. You don't have to believe but the tools of communication are the same if you want to be a bitcoin evangelist. As soon as you do this you create a brand and the "laws of attraction" will start kick in.

The concept of bitcoin is so big it is hard for all of us to let go the old paradigm. In the end bitcoin will define itself as it is math, without the need for PR. I understand we are not there yet.

One effort does not contradict the others. I am not interested in just being a "face" for bitcoin and I am capable of more than one thing at a time.

Here are the projects I'm currently working on:

- Open Paper Wallet - massively successful, created more than 20 creative commons licensed designs for the whole community - going into production - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=155847.0;all

- SafePaperWallet.com - opening in a couple of weeks to sell retail paper wallet kits

- Open Bitcoin Store - helped 60 new stores launch in the first week - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=161264.0;all

- btcprice.info - serving thousands of SMS alerts on bitcoin price changes for free

- Let's Talk Bitcoin - I am a host and contributor, bi-weekly shows

- bitcoin 2013 conference - speaking about bitcoin neutrality and interviewing people. Also giving 4 interviews to the press (booked so far)

- Open Bitcoin User Group - this project

- Bitcoin book - proposals are out to publishers this week.

As you can see, I can keep up with multiple projects, lead them and make them successful.

Give me solutions or give me support, it's all welcome and appreciated. Tell me it can't be done and I will keep going right past you ;-)

[QuestionAuthority]

Organizations exist to represent individuals working toward a common goal. There needs to be a clear cut agenda with solutions beyond the reach of the individual that require the efforts of the collective organization. The agenda needs to be more than “equal representation” and “caretakers of the organization's maintenance and internal finances.”

Why don’t you come up with a list of bullet points for the organizations agenda first and pitch organizational structure/membership dues later.

[aantonop]

Organizations exist to represent individuals working toward a common goal. There needs to be a clear cut agenda with solutions beyond the reach of the individual that require the efforts of the collective organization. The agenda needs to be more than “equal representation” and “caretakers of the organization's maintenance and internal finances.”

Why don’t you come up with a list of bullet points for the organizations agenda first and pitch organizational structure/membership dues later.

Go right ahead and help me make the agenda. I do not want to dominate the agenda or set "my" agenda.

Here are some of my ideas:

- Offer local chapter support for new bitcoin users
- Encourage bitcoin software development for a robust and diverse bitcoin software ecosystem
- Offer free classes, tutorials, after school programs and university guest lectures
- Create and promote bitcoin educational materials
- Offer local members as teachers, mentors, speakers for local events
- Coordinate community bitcoin events such as conferences, meetups and seminars
- Help local businesses adopt bitcoin with member technical and educational resources


Just off the top of my head.

[Wilikon]

Instead of putting $1000 in your 501, why not start a youtube channel and push your talent so the world can see. Promote bitcoin the way you see fit and have a clear vision of what you want. Sure crowdsourcing for idea and membership on a thread or on reddit is fun, but without the professional tools and $$ it it will be painfully slow. So why not have much more visibility? get a little cam or your iphone, a microphone and just hit the streets and ask people stuff.. Then you talk about bitcoin. You should watch some Tv evangelist shows. You don't have to believe but the tools of communication are the same if you want to be a bitcoin evangelist. As soon as you do this you create a brand and the "laws of attraction" will start kick in.

The concept of bitcoin is so big it is hard for all of us to let go the old paradigm. In the end bitcoin will define itself as it is math, without the need for PR. I understand we are not there yet.

One effort does not contradict the others. I am not interested in just being a "face" for bitcoin and I am capable of more than one thing at a time.

Here are the projects I'm currently working on:

- Open Paper Wallet - massively successful, created more than 20 creative commons licensed designs for the whole community - going into production - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=155847.0;all

- SafePaperWallet.com - opening in a couple of weeks to sell retail paper wallet kits

- Open Bitcoin Store - helped 60 new stores launch in the first week - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=161264.0;all

- btcprice.info - serving thousands of SMS alerts on bitcoin price changes for free

- Let's Talk Bitcoin - I am a host and contributor, bi-weekly shows

- bitcoin 2013 conference - speaking about bitcoin neutrality and interviewing people. Also giving 4 interviews to the press (booked so far)

- Open Bitcoin User Group - this project

- Bitcoin book - proposals are out to publishers this week.

As you can see, I can keep up with multiple projects, lead them and make them successful.

Give me solutions or give me support, it's all welcome and appreciated. Tell me it can't be done and I will keep going right past you ;-)

I have a hard time explaining myself. Sorry. It was not about being a face to bitcoin but being a force for your vision that you are pushing on this thread. That was my simpleton solution. Everything else you do is is good and I am glad you are involve in so many projects, with or without me :-)

[aantonop]

I have a hard time explaining myself. Sorry. It was not about being a face to bitcoin but being a force for your vision that you are pushing on this thread. That was my simpleton solution. Everything else you do is is good and I am glad you are involve in so many projects, with or without me :-)

I totally get what you're saying. You have to be the change you want to see. You are correct, and I am trying to do that. I think this organization can pull in more individuals who are willing to work together towards these goals, explicitly and in an organized way.

[charleshoskinson]

I totally get what you're saying. You have to be the change you want to see. You are correct, and I am trying to do that. I think this organization can pull in more individuals who are willing to work together towards these goals, explicitly and in an organized way.

You will always have my support in any way I can be useful. This is the kind of org bitcoin has needed all along.

[QuestionAuthority]

Organizations exist to represent individuals working toward a common goal. There needs to be a clear cut agenda with solutions beyond the reach of the individual that require the efforts of the collective organization. The agenda needs to be more than “equal representation” and “caretakers of the organization's maintenance and internal finances.”

Why don’t you come up with a list of bullet points for the organizations agenda first and pitch organizational structure/membership dues later.

Go right ahead and help me make the agenda. I do not want to dominate the agenda or set "my" agenda.

Here are some of my ideas:

- Offer local chapter support for new bitcoin users
- Encourage bitcoin software development for a robust and diverse bitcoin software ecosystem
- Offer free classes, tutorials, after school programs and university guest lectures
- Create and promote bitcoin educational materials
- Offer local members as teachers, mentors, speakers for local events
- Coordinate community bitcoin events such as conferences, meetups and seminars
- Help local businesses adopt bitcoin with member technical and educational resources


Just off the top of my head.

Now you’re talking! Elaborate on these concepts by showing how they can be accomplished and ask for feedback on more ideas requiring a collective effort. Start a thread with a foundation set in your agenda and then setup the most amicable structure you can also using suggestions of the potential membership.

[charleshoskinson]

Now you’re talking! Elaborate on these concepts by showing how they can be accomplished and ask for feedback on more ideas requiring a collective effort. Start a thread with a foundation set in your agenda and then setup the most amicable structure you can also using suggestions of the potential membership.

We need a website or at the very least a blog ASAP.

[aantonop]

http://bitcoinusergroup.org/

That's the website. Still very basic, but we can start a discussion...