Klondike - 16 chip ASIC Open Source Board - Preliminary

[SebastianJu]

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Since you already will place big orders of parts... can you imagine to check out a passive cooling solution for the boards? So that in case a customer wants to go the easy way he can buy the cooling from you? I guess you would be in the best position to lower the prices through mass-order. I can imagine 4 cooling parts for 4 chips each... putting them on top of the chips or on the other side of the pcb when this is better.

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Sebastian  -  All good points! I just wanted to make a clarification about the heatsinks. These ASICs dissipate their heat from the under side of the ASIC. Direct word from Avalon is that a heatsink should NOT be placed on the top of the ASIC (even with an under-mount heatsink). Has to do with the internal structure/air gap/some-such. This information is posted somewhere...I just don’t have time to go hunting for it right now.

I remember this... i believe they created it this way so that they can add the heatsink on the other side of the pcb... but i wonder if it would hurt the asic when another heatsink would be directly on the chip. I mean cant this lead only to even more heat dissipation?

Another pcb-assembling-noob-question... how long will a normal experienced user take to assemble a k16-board? Maybe after he had created the first boards successfully. Im asking myself if a reasonable amount of pcbs can be done by one person alone or if i have to search for help because the amount of time needed is more than it makes sense...

Perhaps BKKcoins can recommend someone from his country?

I'm assuming assembly in Thailand would be ALOT cheaper then in the US or EU.

Interesting question... and another way for bkkcoins to earn some money. Plus i think way way more users would use his service then because many fear the DIY or finding an assembler.

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[turtle83]

I remember this... i believe they created it this way so that they can add the heatsink on the other side of the pcb... but i wonder if it would hurt the asic when another heatsink would be directly on the chip. I mean cant this lead only to even more heat dissipation?

RTFM: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Avalon#Others

About install extra heat-sinks on each avalon chip: please do not do that. there is a air gap between the die and package top, install a heatsink on chip is useless. and will cause overheating. because the top PCB copper act as a heatsink too. do not cover them.

[SebastianJu]

I remember this... i believe they created it this way so that they can add the heatsink on the other side of the pcb... but i wonder if it would hurt the asic when another heatsink would be directly on the chip. I mean cant this lead only to even more heat dissipation?

RTFM: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Avalon#Others

About install extra heat-sinks on each avalon chip: please do not do that. there is a air gap between the die and package top, install a heatsink on chip is useless. and will cause overheating. because the top PCB copper act as a heatsink too. do not cover them.

Thank you for the help though i would appreciate a less tough tone.

[turtle83]

Thank you for the help though i would appreciate a less tough tone.

Sorry was reflex. Didn't mean to be rough. Meant to say "Here is the relevant info in the manual"

[SebastianJu]

Thank you for the help though i would appreciate a less tough tone.

Sorry was reflex. Didn't mean to be rough. Meant to say "Here is the relevant info in the manual"

Ok, maybe im a bit thin-skinned today...

[bigbeninlondon]

Thank you for the help though i would appreciate a less tough tone.

Sorry was reflex. Didn't mean to be rough. Meant to say "Here is the relevant info in the manual"

Ok, maybe im a bit thin-skinned today...

Lol I think RTFM has taken on a new meaning;  It now means Read The Fabulous Manual.

[BkkCoins]

Perhaps BKKcoins can recommend someone from his country?

I'm assuming assembly in Thailand would be ALOT cheaper then in the US or EU.

I may look into this later after having a working board and if no board assembler steps up with a more attractive offer. The cost for board assembly in the US/EU is insane. Hundreds of $$ each, obviously aimed more at specialist prototyping, as nowadays any real cost effective production must be done in Asia.

I can tell you that there are many board assemblers in Thailand. Large producers like Western Digital, Seagate, Nikon, AMD and many more are here making products, and there are support industries around these. And then there are small shops. It's probably no easy feat to find the right combination of quality and price. I had an inquiry from someone in Bkk on the forum, back a few weeks ago, who wanted to set this type of thing up, but my recent messages to him have been ignored so maybe he's moved on to something else.

[WynX]

[..]
With this cutter method you use postscript output to create the stencil so I can provide such a file with/without ASICs later on github. If this cutting method works well enough then I'll either include a stencil with each kit order or make it an optional item for a low added cost. A stencil without ASICs could have a separate footprint of a single ASIC to be used individually.

Would love to be able to order the stencil with the DIY kit (as a separate item). If the cutter method works fine than thats ok, if not....you can probably get them made somewhere too (in Kapton or other material) and offer them to 'us' .

[SebastianJu]

Perhaps BKKcoins can recommend someone from his country?

I'm assuming assembly in Thailand would be ALOT cheaper then in the US or EU.

I may look into this later after having a working board and if no board assembler steps up with a more attractive offer. The cost for board assembly in the US/EU is insane. Hundreds of $$ each, obviously aimed more at specialist prototyping, as nowadays any real cost effective production must be done in Asia.

I can tell you that there are many board assemblers in Thailand. Large producers like Western Digital, Seagate, Nikon, AMD and many more are here making products, and there are support industries around these. And then there are small shops. It's probably no easy feat to find the right combination of quality and price. I had an inquiry from someone in Bkk on the forum, back a few weeks ago, who wanted to set this type of thing up, but my recent messages to him have been ignored so maybe he's moved on to something else.

Would be great when this would work out. Maybe you can find something like a website with ratings of the work of these shops or otherwise experiences of other customers. I think i would rather pay some more to get nearly 100% perfect rate instead saving at the wrong end...

[villex]

If someone would like to invest in a medium sized assembly line. I think this should make the start http://www.manncorp.com/smt/cat-60-1/complete-turnkey-smt-assembly-lines.html

[BkkCoins]

If someone would like to invest in a medium sized assembly line. I think this should make the start http://www.manncorp.com/smt/cat-60-1/complete-turnkey-smt-assembly-lines.html

I like this PnP in Pkg#1.
http://www.manncorp.com/smt/prod-180/info.html

I wonder what kind of price tag something like that has. I like you can use a cut tape table as well as reels because loading reels is a pain and buying full ones is costly for low volume runs. 2200pph would be around 7 boards/hour minus setup times. Probably would make a holder for 4 up boards. Since there is holes in the corners you could just have a series of posts to place them on.

[villex]

If someone would like to invest in a medium sized assembly line. I think this should make the start http://www.manncorp.com/smt/cat-60-1/complete-turnkey-smt-assembly-lines.html

I like this PnP in Pkg#1.
http://www.manncorp.com/smt/prod-180/info.html

I wonder what kind of price tag something like that has. I like you can use a cut tape table as well as reels because loading reels is a pain and buying full ones is costly for low volume runs. 2200pph would be around 7 boards/hour minus setup times. Probably would make a holder for 4 up boards. Since there is holes in the corners you could just have a series of posts to place them on.

well, that specific one is worth $29,995.00. But this is a inexpensive option for prototypes http://dangerousprototypes.com/2013/02/21/workshop-video-56-tm220a-table-top-pick-and-place-overview/

[BkkCoins]

If someone would like to invest in a medium sized assembly line. I think this should make the start http://www.manncorp.com/smt/cat-60-1/complete-turnkey-smt-assembly-lines.html

I like this PnP in Pkg#1.
http://www.manncorp.com/smt/prod-180/info.html

I wonder what kind of price tag something like that has. I like you can use a cut tape table as well as reels because loading reels is a pain and buying full ones is costly for low volume runs. 2200pph would be around 7 boards/hour minus setup times. Probably would make a holder for 4 up boards. Since there is holes in the corners you could just have a series of posts to place them on.

well, that specific one is worth $29,995.00. But this is a inexpensive option for prototypes http://dangerousprototypes.com/2013/02/21/workshop-video-56-tm220a-table-top-pick-and-place-overview/

Now that is even better. Like it.

Maybe someone can get one, along with a low-end eBay reflow oven, and offer board assembly at level somewhere between high end shops and home reflow.

edit: Dangerous Prototypes is great. I use some of their proto-boards and will use one for the initial Klondike programming / testing while waiting for PCBs. I have one for the ASIC in case the boards aren't here when samples come out. I like his videos. They're very watchable and he's right on with comments that are very insightful and useful. He's got an awesome thing going.

[villex]

Maybe someone can get one, along with a low-end eBay reflow oven, and offer board assembly at level somewhere between high end shops and home reflow.

Man, that's my dream right now. lol

Can someone verify this company? http://www.pcb-assembly.com.tw/contact.html
I'm seeing very good prices for pcb printing in mid sized orders, for 100 printed boards like $9.3

[Bicknellski]

Just a question BKKcoins... will each board have a serial / id number?

[tom_o]

Found some very cheap potential heatsinks, would they dissapate enough heat though?

http://dx.com/p/aluminum-cooler-heat-sink-chipset-for-ram-memory-w-type-8-piece-set-35816



130x180x60mm

[loshia]

Just a question BKKcoins... will each board have a serial / id number?

+1 for USb serial so we can distinguish multiple boards in cgminer

[BkkCoins]

Just a question BKKcoins... will each board have a serial / id number?

I don't think each board will but possibly each PIC chip may, stored in it's flash memory.

Just a question BKKcoins... will each board have a serial / id number?

+1 for USb serial so we can distinguish multiple boards in cgminer

I think probably each USB chain will appear as one unit. Not sure yet as I haven't got into the cgminer code, but if you have a dozen or two boards you don't really want a display with 12-24 lines of 300MHz each - or do you? I wouldn't. And what about people with 60 boards on one chain...

Found some very cheap potential heatsinks, would they dissapate enough heat though?

http://dx.com/p/aluminum-cooler-heat-sink-chipset-for-ram-memory-w-type-8-piece-set-35816
130x180x60mm

Those are smaller than you indicate by 10x. 13mm not 130mm. They may be good as one per chip but they wouldn't work for the whole board (obviously). There's a lot of these RAM/VGA chip coolers out there. They may work per chip but once you add them up you end up spending more than one big heat sink. (I'm looking for a nice blue cool looking one for the K1 however, about 1"x1.25").

Can someone verify this company? http://www.pcb-assembly.com.tw/contact.html
I'm seeing very good prices for pcb printing in mid sized orders, for 100 printed boards like $9.3

"Effy Deal Global" - with a name like that I hope they're not real. But who knows.
The price doesn't surprise me at all. I'm expecting to pay $2.70 each in qty 100.

[tom_o]

Just a question BKKcoins... will each board have a serial / id number?

I don't think each board will but possibly each PIC chip may, stored in it's flash memory.

Just a question BKKcoins... will each board have a serial / id number?

+1 for USb serial so we can distinguish multiple boards in cgminer

I think probably each USB chain will appear as one unit. Not sure yet as I haven't got into the cgminer code, but if you have a dozen or two boards you don't really want a display with 12-24 lines of 300MHz each - or do you? I wouldn't. And what about people with 60 boards on one chain...

Found some very cheap potential heatsinks, would they dissapate enough heat though?

http://dx.com/p/aluminum-cooler-heat-sink-chipset-for-ram-memory-w-type-8-piece-set-35816
130x180x60mm

Those are smaller than you indicate by 10x. 13mm not 130mm. They may be good as one per chip but they wouldn't work for the whole board (obviously). There's a lot of these RAM/VGA chip coolers out there. They may work per chip but once you add them up you end up spending more than one big heat sink. (I'm looking for a nice blue cool looking one for the K1 however, about 1"x1.25").

Can someone verify this company? http://www.pcb-assembly.com.tw/contact.html
I'm seeing very good prices for pcb printing in mid sized orders, for 100 printed boards like $9.3

"Effy Deal Global" - with a name like that I hope they're not real. But who knows.
The price doesn't surprise me at all. I'm expecting to pay $2.70 each in qty 100.

Unit error doh. I only just woke up sorry.

You say it might cost but tis a pack of 8 and if you buy three pack the price drops to $1.88! blue ones, a bit dearer tho! although they are a bit bigger 15x15mm



Also, for the k16s; are there many raised components on the back of the board? IE will we be able to use a flat heatsink that is bigger than the total board footprint, got an old TEC waterblock I'd love to use!

[loshia]

I think probably each USB chain will appear as one unit. Not sure yet as I haven't got into the cgminer code, but if you have a dozen or two boards you don't really want a display with 12-24 lines of 300MHz each - or do you? I wouldn't. And what about people with 60 boards on one chain...

That is true for sure. let us say a have 10 ttyUSb or 10 boards not chained.  if there is usb serial i can write udev rules and name them so i will know for sure that ttyKLO1 matches particular board. When there is issue i do not have to disconnect and reconnect the boards one by one to find out which board is causing it. Otherwise on each reboot linux will auto name the boards and their tty name will be different. That is what i am talking about

The similar question and response for Icarus boards

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=79835.msg1164605#msg1164605

When USB has serial or some unique attribute it will be golden for dudes having more than one board - Multiple usb cables going to a hub

Otherwise we will have many ttyUSb not knowing which board corresponds to what

PS: i am not mentioning the fact that there might be other usb devices in the system and multiple instances of cgminer to be executd one for Icarus one for Klondike and so on. Having the option to assign unique name to each ttyUSb will save us a lot of trouble. the cgminer will be feed with -S/dev/TTY accordingly