Canada Taxing Bitcoin Transactions

[QuantPlus]

Well what did you expect? If you deal in any other currency than Canadian (dollars?) you must pay taxes, so why not so with Bitcoin?

Why not bitcoin? Because taxation is theft. The only reason they want to tax it is because they cant help but extort money from their cattle. Any time they see someone trying to break free from their scheme, they put systems in place to prevent others from doing it. Its high tech slavery, where you let the slave pick and choose their job and place to live, making them more productive to the slave owner.

Once something like zerocoin comes out and the ledger is nothing but a big washing machine, how are they going to tax it? as long as you don't deal in their garbage fiat, how could they tax you?

Yes. That. +1

The other thing is that only CAD can be used to pay taxes in Canada. BTC isn't "legal tender" for taxes.

You guys sort of have it backwards.

The ability to pay taxes and stay out of jail...
Is the Big Thing that gives all Fiat Currencies real Intrinsic Value...
Unless you are a hobo and don't have to worry about stuff like family, house, car, college, etc...

Really, this thread is like denying that Death exists.

[morningtime]

Bitcoins bought and sold for speculative purposes are subject to captial gains or income taxes, depending on the specifics of the case, the agency says

 http://blogs.marketwatch.com/thetell/2013/04/29/canada-to-tax-bitcoin-transactions/

Your topic title reads "taxing transactions", but your explanation refers to "taxing gains from speculation", which is really not the same. Canada is not going to tax "transactions", but your profits from handling Bitcoin.
In The Netherlands, where I live, this is already the case, because Bitcoins follow existing tax laws. If I make a 100 EUR profit from trading Bitcoins, I will pay income tax on that 100 EUR. That's not strange to me at all. I would find it strange if Canada did not tax your profits.

[justusranvier]

The ability to pay taxes and stay out of jail...

That's such a beautifully evil phrase. You've managed to completely disconnect the perpetrators from their crimes and instead attribute those crimes to an impersonal and unalterable law of nature. The entire post is a brilliant example of providing linguistic cover for sociopaths.

[Eich]

Well what did you expect? If you deal in any other currency than Canadian (dollars?) you must pay taxes, so why not so with Bitcoin?

Why not bitcoin? Because taxation is theft. The only reason they want to tax it is because they cant help but extort money from their cattle. Any time they see someone trying to break free from their scheme, they put systems in place to prevent others from doing it. Its high tech slavery, where you let the slave pick and choose their job and place to live, making them more productive to the slave owner.

Once something like zerocoin comes out and the ledger is nothing but a big washing machine, how are they going to tax it? as long as you don't deal in their garbage fiat, how could they tax you?

Yes. That. +1

The other thing is that only CAD can be used to pay taxes in Canada. BTC isn't "legal tender" for taxes.

You guys sort of have it backwards.

The ability to pay taxes and stay out of jail...
Is the Big Thing that gives all Fiat Currencies real Intrinsic Value...
Unless you are a hobo and don't have to worry about stuff like family, house, car, college, etc...

Really, this thread is like denying that Death exists.

Wow..

The ability to pay taxes and stay out of jail...

Someone tells you you have to pay them or they come cage you up, and if you resist they kill you. You're such a statist that you see this as ok? If I do it to you, Its called extortion and theft. I never agreed to that, did you?

Is the Big Thing that gives all Fiat Currencies real Intrinsic Value...

What gives fiat intrinsic value is the fact that its accepted for everything. "all debts public and private", including taxes. fiat is a debt instrument with no REAL value and therefore, only serves the state.

Unless you are a hobo and don't have to worry about stuff like family, house, car, college, etc...

Isn't this what bitcoin is for? Its the family, house, car, college, etc..., minus funding the coercive state that only uses that money to further its own agenda!

I cant believe this guy opened up with "The ability to pay taxes and stay out of jail...".

[Kaiji]

Just curious, do Forex traders get taxed from trading different fiat currencies?

[repentance]

and, revenue canada will only be able to tax bitcoiners at the point of fiat-to-btc, or bitcoin-to-fiat exchange. Dont use the exchanges and you wont be visible to them.

gotta go change my avatar to the canadian tire money scottsman now ;-)

It's not quite that simple.  If mainstream services start accepting Bitcoin, then those services can be required to disgorge information in the same way that PayPal and eBay already disgorge information about the transactions (both home and foreign currency) of their customers to taxation authorities in some jurisdictions.

Spending BTC can be just as much a point of vulnerability as exchanging it, especially when it becomes possible to spend on it major purchases which involve record-keeping such as cars and property (taxation authorities already check these types of registers if they think people may be evading taxes).  A lifestyle which is inconsistent with declared income is a good way to get the attention of a number of different authorities.

[freedomno1]

Bitcoins bought and sold for speculative purposes are subject to captial gains or income taxes, depending on the specifics of the case, the agency says

 http://blogs.marketwatch.com/thetell/2013/04/29/canada-to-tax-bitcoin-transactions/

Your topic title reads "taxing transactions", but your explanation refers to "taxing gains from speculation", which is really not the same. Canada is not going to tax "transactions", but your profits from handling Bitcoin.
In The Netherlands, where I live, this is already the case, because Bitcoins follow existing tax laws. If I make a 100 EUR profit from trading Bitcoins, I will pay income tax on that 100 EUR. That's not strange to me at all. I would find it strange if Canada did not tax your profits.

Your right I should have clarified the topic name properly, Bitcoin is taxing capital gains from selling bitcoins the transactions themselves are not being taxed but the net profit earned. I am uncertain whether that also applies to a capital loss but assume it probably would if gains are taxable.
If you run a business in bitcoins however it will be treated as income earned from transcations not as a capital gain/ investment risk. Hence an income tax.
However that said relating to the ebay and paypal developments at a certain point although not currently it may include transactions as well, at point of sale so the tax is taken then.

The agency told the CBC that two tax rules apply to the digital currency, depending on how it’s used. Barter transaction rules apply to bitcoins used for goods or services, according to the report.  Bitcoins bought and sold for speculative purposes are subject to captial gains or income taxes, depending on the specifics of the case, the agency says.

[QuestionAuthority]

I bet Terrance and Phillip are behind all this!

Canada is doing Bitcoin a big favor. Taxation is another big step in making Bitcoin mainstream and will assist in government acquiescence. If the gov shares in the gravy then it’s all good.

[Hippie Tech]

Waaat ?! Plz change your nik to 'DontQuestionAuthority'. lol

The only thing claiming BTC income on your tax return will do is make it easy for the gov't to round us up, if/when they decide crypto currencies are a bad thing.

[Bitcoin Oz]

I'm excited to see how they're going to pull it off.  I mean, if it's a measly "You should do it", I see many issues springing up in the future; they may not know who's avoiding taxes, but they'll see clear as day taxes are being avoided.  Then they have fire power to campaign against the use of Bitcoin.

That's not the way our government works. They cannot outlaw bitcoin. We have the right to private property and there is a long standing coupon called "Canadian Tire Money" that is widely used. If you look at the development of Canada's banking and money you will see many private coupons. These were all legal.

"Canadian Tire Money" cannot be converted to Canadian $$$...
So it's not a currency... it's just a discount coupon.

Someone used to exchange tire money for bitcoin....

[Hippie Tech]

I'm excited to see how they're going to pull it off.  I mean, if it's a measly "You should do it", I see many issues springing up in the future; they may not know who's avoiding taxes, but they'll see clear as day taxes are being avoided.  Then they have fire power to campaign against the use of Bitcoin.

That's not the way our government works. They cannot outlaw bitcoin. We have the right to private property and there is a long standing coupon called "Canadian Tire Money" that is widely used. If you look at the development of Canada's banking and money you will see many private coupons. These were all legal.

"Canadian Tire Money" cannot be converted to Canadian $$$...
So it's not a currency... it's just a discount coupon.

Someone used to exchange tire money for bitcoin....

Thats b/c it is one of the first alt-currencies ever introduced.

If the gov't decides to clamp down on BTC, then they should also do the same and account for ALL the crappy tire money ever printed. The accounting nightmare, eg. millions of T-slips, should be enough to make them leave Bitcoin alone. lol

[Eich]

Lets say i have 100 BTC and im looking for some USD. You have 10,000 USD that you are willing to trade. I launder my BTC, send them to you, and you hand me 10,000 USD.

You think im going to fill out a 1099 for this? you have to be out of your f*&$ing mind. If you sit there and fill out a 1099 and willingly give your money to someone whos trying to extort money from you, you belong in line at the slaughterhouse.

[freedomno1]

Lets say i have 100 BTC and im looking for some USD. You have 10,000 USD that you are willing to trade. I launder my BTC, send them to you, and you hand me 10,000 USD.

You think im going to fill out a 1099 for this? you have to be out of your f*&$ing mind. If you sit there and fill out a 1099 and willingly give your money to someone whos trying to extort money from you, you belong in line at the slaughterhouse.

Likely would not get caught
Unless FINCEN starts planting people like they do to drug dealers for bitcoin
http://www.forbes.com/sites/robertwood/2013/05/02/irs-takes-a-bite-out-of-bitcoin/
The IRS already gets a piece where you swap one product or service for another, as the IRS explains at its Bartering Tax Center. Soon the IRS may have a Bitcoin Center too. The Treasury unit called FinCEN, the Financial Crimes Enforcement Network, already has rules about Bitcoin and the IRS is likely to follow.

Although they  care about the big ones like you got a Ferrari bought a million dollar house and only declared 50,000 in income and are 22.

[Eich]

Lets say i have 100 BTC and im looking for some USD. You have 10,000 USD that you are willing to trade. I launder my BTC, send them to you, and you hand me 10,000 USD.

You think im going to fill out a 1099 for this? you have to be out of your f*&$ing mind. If you sit there and fill out a 1099 and willingly give your money to someone whos trying to extort money from you, you belong in line at the slaughterhouse.

Likely would not get caught
Unless FINCEN starts planting people like they do to drug dealers for bitcoin
http://www.forbes.com/sites/robertwood/2013/05/02/irs-takes-a-bite-out-of-bitcoin/
The IRS already gets a piece where you swap one product or service for another, as the IRS explains at its Bartering Tax Center. Soon the IRS may have a Bitcoin Center too. The Treasury unit called FinCEN, the Financial Crimes Enforcement Network, already has rules about Bitcoin and the IRS is likely to follow.

Although they  care about the big ones like you got a Ferrari bought a million dollar house and only declared 50,000 in income and are 22.

IRS takes a bite out of bitcoin. really? where? Thats a bunch of Bla Bla Bla because they cant enforce it unless you are a moron.

I send you 10 BTC: it comes from HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHHAAHAHAHAHAH and it goes to HEHEHHEHEHEHEHEHEEHEHEHEHEHEHHE

Neither me nor you traded anything. the wallets held the bitcoin the entire time. it could have been me that sent that BTC or it could have been my grandmother. and who did the BTC make richer? HEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEEHEHEHEHE is not a person. Unless you throw IRS parties at your house, nobody is ever going to know you now have a bad ass flat screen tv in your living room.

What if 500 people share 1 wallet? What, are they going to tax the computer?

Most definitely you wouldn't get caught unless you're a good little slave and declare everything you have to the IRS. If you make yourself stand out like that then you brought it upon yourself and the state is coming to steal your property.

My bet is, something is going to blow up or some mass murder is going to occur where they will say that all weapons, or whatever, were purchased from silk road or some other awesome free market with bitcoins. There's the excuse. only a matter of time. haven't you noticed that everyone associated with bitcoins is a "hacker" now??

[freedomno1]

Lets say i have 100 BTC and im looking for some USD. You have 10,000 USD that you are willing to trade. I launder my BTC, send them to you, and you hand me 10,000 USD.

You think im going to fill out a 1099 for this? you have to be out of your f*&$ing mind. If you sit there and fill out a 1099 and willingly give your money to someone whos trying to extort money from you, you belong in line at the slaughterhouse.

Likely would not get caught
Unless FINCEN starts planting people like they do to drug dealers for bitcoin
http://www.forbes.com/sites/robertwood/2013/05/02/irs-takes-a-bite-out-of-bitcoin/
The IRS already gets a piece where you swap one product or service for another, as the IRS explains at its Bartering Tax Center. Soon the IRS may have a Bitcoin Center too. The Treasury unit called FinCEN, the Financial Crimes Enforcement Network, already has rules about Bitcoin and the IRS is likely to follow.

Although they  care about the big ones like you got a Ferrari bought a million dollar house and only declared 50,000 in income and are 22.

IRS takes a bite out of bitcoin. really? where? Thats a bunch of Bla Bla Bla because they cant enforce it unless you are a moron.

I send you 10 BTC: it comes from HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHHAAHAHAHAHAH and it goes to HEHEHHEHEHEHEHEHEEHEHEHEHEHEHHE

Neither me nor you traded anything. the wallets held the bitcoin the entire time. it could have been me that sent that BTC or it could have been my grandmother. and who did the BTC make richer? HEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEEHEHEHEHE is not a person. Unless you throw IRS parties at your house, nobody is ever going to know you now have a bad ass flat screen tv in your living room.

What if 500 people share 1 wallet? What, are they going to tax the computer?

Most definitely you wouldn't get caught unless you're a good little slave and declare everything you have to the IRS. If you make yourself stand out like that then you brought it upon yourself and the state is coming to steal your property.

My bet is, something is going to blow up or some mass murder is going to occur where they will say that all weapons, or whatever, were purchased from silk road or some other awesome free market with bitcoins. There's the excuse. only a matter of time. haven't you noticed that everyone associated with bitcoins is a "hacker" now??

Dunno some IRS guy is like I want to buy 50,000 in BTC meet me at this shady place so I can hand you the cash personally
Bam IRS lol
And well the hackers are smarter than the average joe so it might make us cooler if we advertise it well

[Eich]

Lets say i have 100 BTC and im looking for some USD. You have 10,000 USD that you are willing to trade. I launder my BTC, send them to you, and you hand me 10,000 USD.

You think im going to fill out a 1099 for this? you have to be out of your f*&$ing mind. If you sit there and fill out a 1099 and willingly give your money to someone whos trying to extort money from you, you belong in line at the slaughterhouse.

Likely would not get caught
Unless FINCEN starts planting people like they do to drug dealers for bitcoin
http://www.forbes.com/sites/robertwood/2013/05/02/irs-takes-a-bite-out-of-bitcoin/
The IRS already gets a piece where you swap one product or service for another, as the IRS explains at its Bartering Tax Center. Soon the IRS may have a Bitcoin Center too. The Treasury unit called FinCEN, the Financial Crimes Enforcement Network, already has rules about Bitcoin and the IRS is likely to follow.

Although they  care about the big ones like you got a Ferrari bought a million dollar house and only declared 50,000 in income and are 22.

IRS takes a bite out of bitcoin. really? where? Thats a bunch of Bla Bla Bla because they cant enforce it unless you are a moron.

I send you 10 BTC: it comes from HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHHAAHAHAHAHAH and it goes to HEHEHHEHEHEHEHEHEEHEHEHEHEHEHHE

Neither me nor you traded anything. the wallets held the bitcoin the entire time. it could have been me that sent that BTC or it could have been my grandmother. and who did the BTC make richer? HEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEEHEHEHEHE is not a person. Unless you throw IRS parties at your house, nobody is ever going to know you now have a bad ass flat screen tv in your living room.

What if 500 people share 1 wallet? What, are they going to tax the computer?

Most definitely you wouldn't get caught unless you're a good little slave and declare everything you have to the IRS. If you make yourself stand out like that then you brought it upon yourself and the state is coming to steal your property.

My bet is, something is going to blow up or some mass murder is going to occur where they will say that all weapons, or whatever, were purchased from silk road or some other awesome free market with bitcoins. There's the excuse. only a matter of time. haven't you noticed that everyone associated with bitcoins is a "hacker" now??

Dunno some IRS guy is like I want to buy 50,000 in BTC meet me at this shady place so I can hand you the cash personally
Bam IRS lol
And well the hackers are smarter than the average joe so it might make us cooler if we advertise it well

Yeah, sting operations will probably be the only way. but even that can be avoided.

[jdbtracker]

Consequently, exchanging World-Of-Warcraft Gold to Diablo III Gold is speculation, buying items in MMORPG for in-game virtual currency is barter.
Oh my god! Millions of online players are now tax evading criminals!

Yup... All of them Criminals, have you seen the FINCEN Guidelines?  It's a super broad guideline... it practically makes anyone who deals with game money a money launderer... depends on how bad they want to mess with you; This makes it very difficult to use in court... the absurdness would be shot down in a Canadian court. Canadian courts have the right to question, dubious laws.

[freedomno1]

Back to monopoly money 

[Hippie Tech]

Consequently, exchanging World-Of-Warcraft Gold to Diablo III Gold is speculation, buying items in MMORPG for in-game virtual currency is barter.
Oh my god! Millions of online players are now tax evading criminals!

Yup... All of them Criminals, have you seen the FINCEN Guidelines?  It's a super broad guideline... it practically makes anyone who deals with game money a money launderer... depends on how bad they want to mess with you; This makes it very difficult to use in court... the absurdness would be shot down in a Canadian court. Canadian courts have the right to question, dubious laws.

We have the right to question.. that doesn't mean they will actually listen.

Canada has been the nwo/usa/un's bottom bitch for some time. No public or legal protest/action will change this unless we succeed in implementing an outright boycott of their financial, political and other systems.

[jdbtracker]

Well I have read the Thread and I"m thinking about the ultimate end game.

This is what I know about Bitcoin;

It is traceable if someone observes the movement from the ISPs, so not absolutely anonymous, but you can always use TOR.

The Canadian government has a Bitcoin clone: MintChip... it's ready to roll, this tax announcement is the pre-emptive strike; banks can't stop something backed by the Canadian government, FINCEN will have to take this into account. MintChip is legal within Canada for paying taxes. If governments wish to extend their life, they will have to build their own Bitcoin clone for their territory.

Centralized exchanges are traceable and must report their transactions, so capital gains will apply to people exchanging their bitcoins.

Since Bitcoin is untraceable by a regular business(ISPs can track it) it can only be taxed by the business, this will eventually create a business location taxation scheme, F the source of the cash, our resources were used to make it, and these businesses fall under our jurisdiction; There is no way around this. Bitcoin is unstoppable, and can only be controlled at it's choke points, businesses.

Bitcoin transactions between people cannot be effectively traced so only at these choke points can it be taxed. Declaring your Bitcoin income is quite easy when you are being paid in bitcoins, the government knows you got paid and will take their taxes off at the point that you earned them.  

Decentralized systems built on top of Bitcoin cannot be taxed, they are automated systems built on code, but sooner or later you have to buy food from a business, so you will pay taxes off your p2p Corporation income in the jurisdiction that the business is located.

This creates an incentive for governments to build infrastructure to support and increase the efficiency of the businesses that fall under their jurisdiction to provide the resources they need to maintain their income from taxation, e.g. Better roads, Fibre optic cable to reach the most remote areas of their territory, better power infrastructure to facilitate the movement of physical resources. This will create a resource based economy.

The system that will eventually be created is one where governments are determined to allow their citizens to make a living so that they may receive the taxes from consumption; Businesses too must purchase resources to grow, point of sale taxation. This will eventually slowly but methodically increase the running efficiency of the governments themselves by forcing them to limit stupid and useless laws creation, they will have to begin running the government as a business intent on increasing their citizens purchasing power,safety and health... can't tax you if your dead.



you may wonder what if the people begin to use Encryption Networks(TOR) or Decentralized systems(classifieds,ripple), maybe even 3D printing hubs?

Encryption Networks: Can't, taxed at point of sale.

Decentralized Barter System:e.g. Kijiji; No taxation possible at point of sale; can't be monitored. but resources consumed can be taxed;

3D printing: Taxation of resources extracted from the territory

Combined system using all the above: Taxation only possible at point of Recycling or Mining extraction(orbital satellites, surveys have mapped most deposits on the planet) Eventually home extractors will make resources 100% recyclable... end of governments as we know them, taxation impossible, regulation impossible open source governments will take care of infrastructure, security, and health of the population. The collective will decide the fate of humanity.

End game if p2p begins to rule the planet, end of all modern corporation/governments/systems as we know them; Resources will be distributed on a need to extract basis, the scarcity of the resources will determine what you are able to print on your 3D printer, The collective of a jurisdiction will decide what to built and when if the resources are available, infinite growth of the human race... The Golden age of Earth begins.

Yup I know long... but thinking long term. I might be wrong though, there are always selfish people who will find a way to dominate others in one way or another... we could build a blockchain for that too.