Bitcoin, Cryptocurrency and discrimination against nations

[aliashraf]

Hi All,
Some members here know me, being an Iranian and a resident of Iran. Obviously Bitcoin is not about nationality and borders but everybody knows we are all stuck in 'Exchange Dilemma'.

Bitcoin is not centralized, no body is able to impose censorship and sanction against a single person nor a whole nation, but exchanges can and they do, why?
Because once you are trading your btc with fucking USD they can argue about US treasury laws and regulations. Ok! not a big deal, just forget about USD and go trading in pure cryptocurrency market , but wait, according to my experience it is not that easy ...
Today I have received this message from a cryptocurrency exchange which I have signed up on it few days ago:

Dear Customer,

Our systems have detected that you may be in Iran or in Syria.

Iran: There are international sanctions currently prohibit us from doing business with anyone in Iran.
Syria: We are temporarily halting use of the exchange for Syrian residents and citizens.

So, what's next?
If you are not a resident or a citizen of either country, we require that you take the following steps before we can allow you to continue using our Platform:
    1.    Visit ************** to update your profile.
    2.    Enter your residential address and telephone number located in the Level 2 section.
    3.    Upload your government issued photo ID which includes proof of your primary residence, your SSN or Passport number, and Date of Birth (DOB) located in the Level 2 profile section.

If you are a resident or a citizen of either country, you will have the option of a one-time withdrawal and account closure. If you have coins on balance and need to close your account, please contact our support team, who will help you withdraw your funds. Each coin will need to be withdrawn in full, and we will immediately close your account thereafter.

We apologize for this inconvenience{ }.

...

Well, I reside in Iran and I'm convicted, just because of my residency!
US sanctions against Iran (some institutes and persons) is a long and devious story, but the thing is:
1- These are not 'International'
2- I'm not officially, personally charged by any court for any crime in any national or international court.
3- This hypocrite site is not a USD/BTC exchange it is pure cryptocurrency!

another important fact:
These hypocrites didn't ask about my nationality and/or residency, they waited for my first deposit just like a scam and then discovered my residency status. To be honest I have to mention that because of my government's Internet censorship habits I use vpn most of the times, it is absolutely possible, I admit, that they may have been checking my IP once I was signing up, being on the vpn,  and the 'discovery' happened when the vpn was down the other time.

Even from a neutralized point of view, I can reasonably, classify this so called 'Exchange' as an 'alien' with respect to cryptocurrency world. It is not about some coins trapped in my account with them, (they say I have to beg my coins from their support team. believe it? my own deposit! ) it is about me plus another 80 millions of human beings to mine and trade cryptocurrencies.

Now I have Options:

1- Running a DDOs attack or something like that on their premature site,

2- Disclosing their name and  running some forum campaign against them.


What do you think? What do I have to do with this idiots?

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[pearlmen]

Its unfortunate that an individual will have to pay for things that are neither caused by him nor affects him as the case you have here. There is actually nothing you can do because as you said its either because of sanctions as you rightly noted or because of the law of your country which you are unaware of. The same way some exchange site exclude citizens of the United States  and some gambling sites specifically excludes them. Its just a way to avoid legal issues. If possible you can use proxy and enjoy what you want to.

[darkangel11]

I understand that they require an ID if you're exchanging to fiat, but this is too much. They shouldn't require all personal data if you're only trading cryptos, because there can't be any money laundering taking place and no laws require them to have your details. I think you could share the name of this exchange. Usually people don't have similar dilemmas when they're mistreated by a private company. If we're lucky we might see an explanation from them, and if not there's nothing more you can do, but close an account and move on to a different one. It's their site and their rules.

[aliashraf]

I understand that they require an ID if you're exchanging to fiat, but this is too much. They shouldn't require all personal data if you're only trading cryptos, because there can't be any money laundering taking place and no laws require them to have your details. I think you could share the name of this exchange.
...

True. It is Poloniex.

Usually people don't have similar dilemmas when they're mistreated by a private company. If we're lucky we might see an explanation from them, and if not there's nothing more you can do, but close an account and move on to a different one. It's their site and their rules.

False. Discrimination can not and should not be justified with such an excuse. It is 21st century (and we are talking about cryptocurrency for the god sake!). You can not open a restaurant with a 'No dogs, No negroes' sign on the front door just because of your ownership. It is an assault and can be prosecuted as a crime.

Citizens, I mean ordinary citizens, of the USA  and Europe do not understand the depth of the story, they have not experienced discrimination as a victim (and hopefully not as a perpetrator) but let me to express my impression in one single word: it is horrible. Today they do this with me (and a total of 80 millions of Iraniains) and tomorrow they will come to you. Believe me, they will come to every single person they wish to humiliate for any reason.

It is not about law, it is not about courts, it is just about the discriminative instincts and arrogance that comes with power. It is why I love bitcoin and cryptocurrency agenda: decentralization!

and I believe in one specific point: we should put the "decentralized exchange" problem in high priority. Centralized exchanges are Achilles' heel for cryptocurrency ecosystem.

[Agrello]

It is not about law, it is not about courts, it is just about the discriminative instincts and arrogance that comes with power. It is why I love bitcoin and cryptocurrency agenda: decentralization!

and I believe in one specific point: we should put the "decentralized exchange" problem in high priority. Centralized exchanges are Achilles' heel for cryptocurrency ecosystem.

I am very sorry to hear about your experience. While WWII was happening no-one knew about what was going on. Other nations stood by and watched. I believe the same thing is happening again but in its own way. Years from now people will look back and say similar things like "ah wow, i cant believe what they were doing to people, how did they allow this?"

Anyways, moving forward about a decentralised exchange. https://bitshares.org/ has existed for a while now and is fully decentralised. There are other ones coming through and others which in time will be built. Shapeshift would be similar. I would love to see fully decentralised exchanges coming out that are transparent with full support for any coin.

[darkangel11]

False. Discrimination can not and should not be justified with such an excuse. It is 21st century (and we are talking about cryptocurrency for the god sake!). You can not open a restaurant with a 'No dogs, No negroes' sign on the front door just because of your ownership. It is an assault and can be prosecuted as a crime.

It shouldn't be, which doesn't change a thing in this case. We are speaking against it, you've made a topic and got people supporting you, and you have disclosed the name of the exchange, which is a big and well known one. Despite it, nobody can force them to apologize and stop asking people from the Middle East for their IDs.

Citizens, I mean ordinary citizens, of the USA  and Europe do not understand the depth of the story, they have not experienced discrimination as a victim (and hopefully not as a perpetrator) but let me to express my impression in one single word: it is horrible. Today they do this with me (and a total of 80 millions of Iraniains) and tomorrow they will come to you. Believe me, they will come to every single person they wish to humiliate for any reason.

Let's not generalize. Many people of color in the United States felt discrimination.
If they ask an ID it from me, I'll go to another exchange and another. There are so many, with some openly opposing verification, that I doubt iI'll ever have to do it. Also, in Europe it's not required to identify if you're not withdrawing fiat.

It is not about law, it is not about courts, it is just about the discriminative instincts and arrogance that comes with power. It is why I love bitcoin and cryptocurrency agenda: decentralization! and I believe in one specific point: we should put the "decentralized exchange" problem in high priority. Centralized exchanges are Achilles' heel for cryptocurrency ecosystem.

I agree, but unfortunately an automatic, decentralized exchange will never be able to work with fiat. It's possible to have a decentralized bitcoin-altcoin exchange, but to work with fiat you need to register a business and take responsibility. As a responsible owner you will want to control the traffic and comply with the regulations, not leave it decentralized.

[aliashraf]

False. Discrimination can not and should not be justified with such an excuse. It is 21st century (and we are talking about cryptocurrency for the god sake!). You can not open a restaurant with a 'No dogs, No negroes' sign on the front door just because of your ownership. It is an assault and can be prosecuted as a crime.

 nobody can force them to apologize and stop asking people from the Middle East for their IDs.

.

In Poloniex case with me:

1- They didn't mentioned about their need for verification at the sign-up process. Actually I signed-up with them without any ID verification or even being asked about my citizenship etc. They just spied on me and 'discovered' my citizenship!

2- They didn't asked any ID afterwards, they just simply blocked my account and sent me an e-mail informing me about their 'No dogs, No Iranians' policy.

It is not about law, it is not about courts, it is just about the discriminative instincts and arrogance that comes with power. It is why I love bitcoin and cryptocurrency agenda: decentralization! and I believe in one specific point: we should put the "decentralized exchange" problem in high priority. Centralized exchanges are Achilles' heel for cryptocurrency ecosystem.

I agree, but unfortunately an automatic, decentralized exchange will never be able to work with fiat. It's possible to have a decentralized bitcoin-altcoin exchange, but to work with fiat you need to register a business and take responsibility. As a responsible owner you will want to control the traffic and comply with the regulations, not leave it decentralized.

Well, I do not agree with your point of view which implies some sort of reasoning behind 'complying with regulations' by 'taking responsibility' through 'controlling the traffic' of ones own site ...

... decentralized exchange will never be able to work with fiat ...

You are so wrong! From a theoretical point of view, there is no reason to consider your assertion positively.
Actually one can propose many simple protocols including gateways for automated deposit/withdrawal to/from fiat accounts with traditional banks and other payment service providers, given the escrow and dispute resolution problems have been fixed, which should be the case with any full fledged hypothetical decentralized exchange.
 
The only real, working factor behind the current dead-end is the intrinsic nature of power and the desire to control. Money laundering is an excuse, it is a made-up discourse invented by corrupted institutes to 'wash' their shameful instincts.

Look at the poor crazy guerillas in the Middle East and Africa, the so called 'terrorists', they have no money to wash, their whole nation's GNP is a shame, yet weapons (worth billions of dollars) is smuggling there  every year and what the respected regulators and anti-money laundry institutes have done about it? Nothing! Zero! Advocates all over the world know everything about it, just ask them ... .

The recent ransomware attack, WannaCrypt, was used by mainstream media to 'attack' bitcoin ecosystem, why? Because they have no interest in the crime itself, the perpetrator (NSA), the background (multi-hole Windows operating system), ... .
They say: Forget the crime and the criminals, track the money!

But you You know what? I think they are right, bitcoin is a money laundering device (actually, bitcoin is less than perfect for this purpose, we have monero, zcash,... ) but what the heck? Why don't they get it? It is done!

Bitcoin is and remains out there for years, and anti-money-laundry agenda is going to the hell, being good or bad, being a necessary tool to control crimes or a hype to 'wash' the dirty face of power and its desire to control people, anyway, it is over!

I think we have to reconsider the whole anti-money-laundering discourse. You guys in the free world should vote against it and all  should take one step forward: It is time for bypassing governmental control on trade, I believe.

[Qartersa]

Hi All,
Some members here know me, being an Iranian and a resident of Iran. Obviously Bitcoin is not about nationality and borders but everybody knows we are all stuck in 'Exchange Dilemma'.

Bitcoin is not centralized, no body is able to impose censorship and sanction against a single person nor a whole nation, but exchanges can and they do, why?
Because once you are trading your btc with fucking USD they can argue about US treasury laws and regulations. Ok! not a big deal, just forget about USD and go trading in pure cryptocurrency market , but wait, according to my experience it is not that easy ...
Today I have received this message from a cryptocurrency exchange which I have signed up on it few days ago:

Dear Customer,

Our systems have detected that you may be in Iran or in Syria.

Iran: There are international sanctions currently prohibit us from doing business with anyone in Iran.
Syria: We are temporarily halting use of the exchange for Syrian residents and citizens.

So, what's next?
If you are not a resident or a citizen of either country, we require that you take the following steps before we can allow you to continue using our Platform:
    1.    Visit ************** to update your profile.
    2.    Enter your residential address and telephone number located in the Level 2 section.
    3.    Upload your government issued photo ID which includes proof of your primary residence, your SSN or Passport number, and Date of Birth (DOB) located in the Level 2 profile section.

If you are a resident or a citizen of either country, you will have the option of a one-time withdrawal and account closure. If you have coins on balance and need to close your account, please contact our support team, who will help you withdraw your funds. Each coin will need to be withdrawn in full, and we will immediately close your account thereafter.

We apologize for this inconvenience{ }.

...

Well, I reside in Iran and I'm convicted, just because of my residency!
US sanctions against Iran (some institutes and persons) is a long and devious story, but the thing is:
1- These are not 'International'
2- I'm not officially, personally charged by any court for any crime in any national or international court.
3- This hypocrite site is not a USD/BTC exchange it is pure cryptocurrency!

another important fact:
These hypocrites didn't ask about my nationality and/or residency, they waited for my first deposit just like a scam and then discovered my residency status. To be honest I have to mention that because of my government's Internet censorship habits I use vpn most of the times, it is absolutely possible, I admit, that they may have been checking my IP once I was signing up, being on the vpn,  and the 'discovery' happened when the vpn was down the other time.

Even from a neutralized point of view, I can reasonably, classify this so called 'Exchange' as an 'alien' with respect to cryptocurrency world. It is not about some coins trapped in my account with them, (they say I have to beg my coins from their support team. believe it? my own deposit! ) it is about me plus another 80 millions of human beings to mine and trade cryptocurrencies.

Now I have Options:

1- Running a DDOs attack or something like that on their premature site,

2- Disclosing their name and  running some forum campaign against them.


What do you think? What do I have to do with this idiots?

Hello! Reading about your concern is quite alarming in the sense that you have been forced to close your account mainly because you either reside in Iran or Syria. I really have not encountered such dilemma until today. Well I guess you would have to write your concern, detailing every aspect that would best relay the matter on your shoulders. I suggest we take things easy, and come about a definitive solution to address concerns with the likes of this.

[mrcash02]

Just find another exchange to trade Crypto-Currency, avoid the regulamented exchanges which must follow rules of "real world". Before joining a exchange, check if people from your country can use it normally without problems.

They gave you the option to withdraw your funds, do it. Exchange is a private service and if they are in common agreement with USA regulamentation, they have the obligation to follow it. It's a centralized service using decentralized currencies.

[aliashraf]

... Exchange is a private service and if they are in common agreement with USA regulamentation, they have the obligation to follow it.
...

I have to mention: There is no US regulation prohibiting a whole nation from cryptocurrency trading, even with  fiat currencies and specially USD (I have no interest in crypto/fiat trading thou). Lawyers can tell you about the nature and extents of Iran sanctions and their limited set of targets... Poloniex just overuses some regulations. Why? I tell you...

By practicing discriminations against a fraction of people you reserve a right for yourself to do it more in the future and  against new fractions of interest. This is why I believe that imposing discrimination against one person is not simply an unfortunate accident happened to her it is definitively an alarm of danger for the modern society.

And a word for your inception of the concept of a 'private service': No service or company is and can be "private" in an absolute sense, actually the term 'private service/company' is not an exact expression, it is rather 'privately hold service/company'.

One can not run a public service privately, it sounds paradoxical. Doesn't it?

[botany]

Even from a neutralized point of view, I can reasonably, classify this so called 'Exchange' as an 'alien' with respect to cryptocurrency world. It is not about some coins trapped in my account with them, (they say I have to beg my coins from their support team. believe it? my own deposit! )

Don't let your ego get in the way of taking back your coins. Just contact the support team and ask for a one time withdrawal.

This is one reason why I believe that decentralized exchanges will be a better bet to trade crypto, in the near future.

[mrcash02]

... Exchange is a private service and if they are in common agreement with USA regulamentation, they have the obligation to follow it.
...

I have to mention: There is no US regulation prohibiting a whole nation from cryptocurrency trading, even with  fiat currencies and specially USD (I have no interest in crypto/fiat trading thou). Lawyers can tell you about the nature and extents of Iran sanctions and their limited set of targets... Poloniex just overuses some regulations. Why? I tell you...

By practicing discriminations against a fraction of people you reserve a right for yourself to do it more in the future and  against new fractions of interest. This is why I believe that imposing discrimination against one person is not simply an unfortunate accident happened to her it is definitively an alarm of danger for the modern society.

And a word for your inception of the concept of a 'private service': No service or company is and can be "private" in an absolute sense, actually the term 'private service/company' is not an exact expression, it is rather 'privately hold service/company'.

One can not run a public service privately, it sounds paradoxical. Doesn't it?

Take it easy, if someone doesn't want me at his house, I won't go there, if someone doesn't want me at his restaurant, I won't go there, if someone doesn't want me at his Exchange, I won't use their service...

There are another online Exchanges to use. But if you think you have a legal backing, you can hire a lawyer and you together can try an action against Poloniex.

[Sex Video Chat VKcams.com]

Check for Russian exchangers.

[aliashraf]

Take it easy, if someone doesn't want me at his house, I won't go there, if someone doesn't want me at his restaurant, I won't go there, if someone doesn't want me at his Exchange, I won't use their service...

There are another online Exchanges to use. But if you think you have a legal backing, you can hire a lawyer and you together can try an action against Poloniex.

Many people have replied with a same idea here  and I appreciate it ...

Actually I shared my story not to solve my personal problem or for having sympathy (it is great to see people around, trying to show you sympathy thou) I just want to emphasis on the fragile situation we all have with this exchanges and their inherent inconsistency with the whole ecosystem.

I do not agree with the 'their house, their rules' discourse thou, but it doesn't matter as long as it goes this way and there is nothing in the world I can do ... and it is the point: nobody in the hell can throw you out of the bitcoin ecosystem, so, Poloniex is not a part of it.

[veleten]

Poloniex is mad to be losing customers due to the sanctions imposed on a country,not individuals
the sanctions,by the way were partially lifted according to the infamous Iran deal Trump likes to harp on so much

there is no way for an exchange that doesn't require KYC verification to know you are from Iran or Syria if you use VPN
they trace your IP geolocation ,so re-registering and using VPN should be fine (if you want to have an account with them STILL)
IMHO this is total bs,they should never discriminate based on your country of origin as bitcoin is a cryptocurrency- it is not even regulated in the US
and if I were you I would look elsewhere for your day to day trading 

[aliashraf]

Poloniex is mad to be losing customers due to the sanctions imposed on a country,not individuals
the sanctions,by the way were partially lifted according to the infamous Iran deal Trump likes to harp on so much

there is no way for an exchange that doesn't require KYC verification to know you are from Iran or Syria if you use VPN
they trace your IP geolocation ,so re-registering and using VPN should be fine (if you want to have an account with them STILL)
IMHO this is total bs,they should never discriminate based on your country of origin as bitcoin is a cryptocurrency- it is not even regulated in the US
and if I were you I would look elsewhere for your day to day trading  

Thanks for the support. I'm fine without Poloniex and not a big deal by itself ...

I just felt insecure after this happened and then I noticed: We are all insecure with this centralized exchanges being Iranian or Syrian or not ... they can find an excuse to do things against our interests. Suppose for a moment you have an open order for 10 btcs and it is falling sharply toward your bid (not likely these days), Poloniex can simply drop your order because of some excuse like 'we found your country or state regulations may be preventing you from trade, we are reconsidering your membership, wait for our notice' and after they have done what they wanted to do:  'sorry for inconvenience, you are now ok! Continue feeding us, thank you!' ... disgusting.

About vpn and anonymous surfing, I hate vpn, in Iran we have to use it for facebook, youtube, ... because of our government's censorship or even bypassing  some sites' sanction friendly policies, I'm seek of it, I feel like a thief, a criminal not a free human being who wants to protect his/her privacy like guys in US or Europe. For me it is a sort of accepting humiliation, understand? It is your right to be you and choose not to be, but for us we MUST hide who we are!

 I am seek of it ...