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Author Topic: Ola... any crypto-aware accountants who can assist?  (Read 1421 times)
Trimegistus
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December 22, 2017, 10:43:35 AM
 #21


I'm an honest citizen and you should be more careful before accusing people you don't know. Particularly when you don't even know waht you are talking about!

Stop spreading false information! Stop frightening people with your ignorance! And stop judging others!


I didn't mean to disrespect, nor i was accusing you of anything. And it certainly wasn't my intention to frigthen anyone, but to be cautious when it comes to these matters.
I understand there is no regulation, and i agree mostly in what you say, but i do think that if you make a big profit and they don't know where it comes from they will be alarmed.
Better to consult a lawyer and/or a fiscal operative to know more, it's what i intend to do.

No harm done. Let's move on, shall we?

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Jay_Pal
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December 22, 2017, 10:44:26 AM
 #22


I'm an honest citizen and you should be more careful before accusing people you don't know. Particularly when you don't even know waht you are talking about!

Stop spreading false information! Stop frightening people with your ignorance! And stop judging others!


I didn't mean to disrespect, nor i was accusing you of anything. And it certainly wasn't my intention to frigthen anyone, but to be cautious when it comes to these matters.
I understand there is no regulation, and i agree mostly in what you say, but i do think that if you make a big profit and they don't know where it comes from they will be alarmed.
Better to consult a lawyer and/or a fiscal operative to know more, it's what i intend to do.

That's right. Trimegistus is right in many aspects.
But the "fight the power" attitude doesn't help here. "The power" does whatever they want unfortunately, as I've seen in many real life examples around me (some of which I've shared above).
People easily get in trouble with the Tax Services because of misinformation, some of it provided by the people behind the counter.
And when you consult them, would you please be kind to share their enlightenment on the subject?
I guess everybody would benefit from that knowledge, even to "fight the power" later Cheesy
But mind you, lawyers cost money. I'd ask the one I know but I'd feel bad asking her to study and search the law, having trouble with the subject and not paying her.
And please, everybody take note on this:
- Mining is not taxed (yet...)
- But also not "licensed"...
- The problem isn't mining or trading taxation.
- The problem is the extra money taxation - and this is legislated: even succession or donations are unfortunately taxed.
- I don't defend rushing to the Tax Services saying "hey! I made 10k on mining, I want to pay you guys!"
- I defend we have to be prepared with the right knowledge if they ever ask.

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amaral1977
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December 22, 2017, 04:11:19 PM
 #23

Section G, Rendimentos obtidos no estrangeiro, refers to work done abroad, not to crypto trading!

Does it refer specifically to work?

My view on this.

The auferings abroad are "declared" in the J paper from the IRS.

It has a part for work -A, Pensions H, Independent work , B, Capitals, E and "incrementos patrimoniais" G.

Under G - incrementos patrimoniais de IRS code states:

Artigo 9.º
Rendimentos da categoria G


1 - Constituem incrementos patrimoniais, desde que não considerados rendimentos de outras categorias:

a) As mais-valias, tal como definidas no artigo seguinte;

b) As indemnizações que visem a reparação de danos não patrimoniais, exceptuadas as fixadas por decisão judicial ou arbitral ou resultantes de acordo homologado judicialmente, de danos emergentes não comprovados e de lucros cessantes, considerando-se neste último caso como tais apenas as que se destinem a ressarcir os benefícios líquidos deixados de obter em consequência da lesão; (Redacção da Lei n.º 67-A/2007, de 31/12)


c) Importâncias auferidas em virtude da assunção de obrigações de não concorrência, independentemente da respectiva fonte ou título;

d) Acréscimos patrimoniais não justificados, determinados nos termos dos artigos 87.º, 88.º ou 89.º-A da Lei Geral Tributária.


2 - (Revogado pela  Lei n.º 3-B/2010-28/04)

3 - São igualmente considerados incrementos patrimoniais aqueles a que se refere o n.º 5 do artigo 89.º-A da lei geral tributária. (Redacção dada pela Lei n.º 55-B/2004, de 30 de Dezembro )

4 - Os incrementos patrimoniais referidos nas alíneas b) e c) do n.º 1 do presente artigo constituem rendimento do ano em que são pagos ou colocados à disposição.(Aditado pela Lei 60-A/2005 de 30 de Dezembro)

Here I want to refer to line a) mais valias. and line d) rendimentos não justificados.

So i tend to agree with whom stated above that at least we would have na unpleasent jorney in court as a finantial gain from cryptotrading is a "mais-valia" and could fall in the bag d) unjustified earnings.
Of course for this there would have to be na investigation and the eagerness from the IRS to prossecute.

So what i would say is 2take care of your capital" and don´t trust the IRS:)

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Ladyofthecoins
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December 22, 2017, 07:00:29 PM
 #24


Segundo a Deco Proteste Investe:

"E impostos, é preciso pagar?

Foi o que perguntámos ao ministério das Finanças. Resposta clara. Se as transações forem feitas no âmbito da atividade profissional ou empresarial, sim, é preciso declarar esses rendimentos e pagar o respetivo imposto, caso em que o contribuinte será tributado na categoria B. De resto, “a venda de bitcoins não é tributável em IRS face ao ordenamento fiscal português, designadamente no âmbito da categoria E (capitais) ou G (mais-valias)”, esclareceu a tutela, numa nota enviada à PROTESTE INVESTE."

https://www.deco.proteste.pt/investe/bitcoin-o-que-e-e-como-funciona-s5148344.htm


Como este artigo é de Jul17, telefonei ontem para confirmar, e sim, mantem-se tudo na mesma.

Deu para perceber que cada Repartição de Finanças tem o seu entendimento, portanto eles dirigiram-se ao Ministério das Finanças directamente.
Quanto aos bancos, eles aconselham a dizer abertamente a proveniencia dos eventuais depósitos. Estão dispostos a arriscar?


PS: Too lazy to translate. Plus, the guy has likely sort things out by now.


Jay_Pal
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December 22, 2017, 09:46:06 PM
 #25

Boa!
Se a deco se mexeu e se está devidamente escrito, optimo.
Mas lá está, cada repartição faz como lhe apetece... Por isso, cautela na mesma!

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cethros
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December 26, 2017, 08:23:59 PM
 #26

Look at these news:
https://www.dn.pt/dinheiro/interior/financas-lucros-com-bitcoin-nao-pagam-imposto-9007290.html (Portuguese)
https://bitcoin.fr/portugal-vers-une-fiscalite-favorable-au-bitcoin/ (French)
Jay_Pal
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December 26, 2017, 10:04:02 PM
 #27

Tal como alguém disse noutro tópico, enquanto não vir isto devidamente escrito no site das finanças e na legislação, é preciso ter cuidado.

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riclas
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December 29, 2017, 09:42:13 PM
 #28

A notícia do DN foi feita com base numa informação vinculativa da AT.

Since this topic started for foreigners i'll continue in english:
The latest information on the subject (a document from the finance department that soon will become public knowledge) tells me I was wrong, as a singular person you don't have to report your earnings from crypto trading in sections E or G of the IRS.
HOWEVER, if you do withdraw large profits from exchanges, the finance department will be notified by the bank and you may be charged for taxes as an independent worker. If you intend to do this anyway, you might aswell just start your activity so that you can declare your expenses and reduce your tax bill. Or don't withdraw to portugal at all.

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jpitte
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January 02, 2018, 12:12:17 AM
 #29


HOWEVER, if you do withdraw large profits from exchanges, the finance department will be notified by the bank and you may be charged for taxes as an independent worker. If you intend to do this anyway, you might aswell just start your activity so that you can declare your expenses and reduce your tax bill. Or don't withdraw to portugal at all.

Hi! I've been reading about taxes and cryptocurrencies and things are still very blurry in my head. From my interpretation, and also from the last article published by the Portuguese media, there's just no legal basis for taxation over cryptocurrencies (yet, since I believe that will change probably this year).

But your last sentence doesn't make sense to me. If you are a dependent worker (working for a company with your regular salary, etc), don't have any open independent activity, I don't see how the IRS could simply jump to the conclusion that your profits should be taxed as an independent worker based on the volume of those profits.

Care to elaborate on that? I'm trying to gather as much information as I can on this subject.

Thanks!

jp
riclas
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January 06, 2018, 04:29:16 AM
 #30

I was talking about the situation where you have no open activity. I also need to clarify this situation for myself, since this is my last doubt for now. i'll pst if i get a decent update.

EDIT: I asked a lawyer who told me that with this document you are now safe if the finance department ever asks why did you receive money that you can prove was from trading crypto, i.e. you are not charged taxes unless you open activity, since there is no activity where this would fit right now that they could point and say you have been doing. If you open activity it will be into some "Others" category

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luis77
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March 05, 2018, 11:30:30 PM
 #31

Any new news about the tax in portugal are they finally free?

cfbtcman
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August 21, 2018, 06:03:19 AM
 #32

Ola, boa tarde,

Are there any English-speaking accountants who know how to declare some crypto exchanges for tax purposes? I would like some help with my self-assessment tax-return which is due for filing soon, in Portugal.

Obrigado,
Jim


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Joaosantos12
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August 21, 2018, 08:06:10 AM
 #33

https://www.legalico.io/portugal/
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