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Author Topic: Do we want to work with money regulators, or keep Bitcoin unregulated?  (Read 19054 times)
rovchris
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June 19, 2013, 07:10:29 PM
Last edit: June 19, 2013, 07:25:54 PM by rovchris
 #201

People seem to forget that all commerce is regulated in the U.S. Bitcoin will not be some kind of exception. Under any scenario it is subject to regulation. Even the title of this implies that keeping bitcoin "unregulated" is some kind of choice.

I'm sure when next years tax fines are handed out people are going to come and use their energy to complain. They would be better off using that energy now to persuade the people who will decide the legal future of bitcoin.  


The american IRS has as much power to tax bitcoin directly as they have the power to enforce the euro to be taxed at 50%

american IRS can only tax and control and make demands on american currency..

the eurozone can only tax and control and make demands on euro currency..

the UK HMRC can only tax and control and make demands on the UK currency..

yea they may have relationships with each other and agree on advice from their partners. but this does not mean that IRS/FINCEN/HMRC have authority of a currency not belonging to them.. they can only regulate it if the people that do own it fully and voluntarily agree to it.

bitcoin is not owned by a country. so please get your heads out of the sand.. bitcoins cannot be taxed.. only when converted into native FIAT will that native countries laws start to apply.

so lets start building bitcoin only businesses. bitcoin only telecoms companys, grocery stores, lets move away from FIAT and choke the financial industry.

Exactly - this is what needs to happen  - It is good to see someone else fully understands the situation.

Hat tip to you Sir.

You sound like a fellow Brit? I doubt many Americans know who HMRC are

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June 19, 2013, 07:38:25 PM
 #202

so lets start building bitcoin only businesses. bitcoin only telecoms companys, grocery stores, lets move away from FIAT and choke the financial industry.

At some point, all of those companies - if legit according to applicable laws of their locality - have to deal with fiat. so rather than stating the obvious (there have been plenty of btc "only" businesses) discuss how there is really, and can be, no such thing as a BTC only business and what needs to happen to change that, if anything.

one answer is to make it easier to exchange btc and fiat, the other is to "make it harder" but essentially ignore the laws regarding business.


Quote
Exactly - this is what needs to happen  - It is good to see someone else fully understands the situation.

Hat tip to you Sir.

You sound like a fellow Brit? I doubt many Americans know who HMRC are

Yes, more businesses need to happen. Including the one where you exchange btc with fiat to pay taxes that are demanded by your government for your BTC business. Derp.
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June 19, 2013, 07:40:30 PM
 #203

so lets start building bitcoin only businesses. bitcoin only telecoms companys, grocery stores, lets move away from FIAT and choke the financial industry.

At some point, all of those companies - if legit according to applicable laws of their locality - have to deal with fiat. so rather than stating the obvious (there have been plenty of btc "only" businesses) discuss how there is really, and can be, no such thing as a BTC only business and what needs to happen to change that, if anything.

one answer is to make it easier to exchange btc and fiat, the other is to "make it harder" but essentially ignore the laws regarding business.

There is no point using bitcoins then - just use FIAT and then you do not have the extra overhead of changing currencies, developing software etc etc.

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June 19, 2013, 07:48:41 PM
 #204

I agree that bitcoin may not be what is regulated, but if you plan on selling bitcoin for $USD then you certainly will be. The USA does not have the power to impose taxation on the world, but it can and does impose a tax on the use of dollars.
All I am saying is that if you think exchanges of fiat for BTC are not going to be regulated, your living in a dream. I have seen people here express their opinion that they do not have to pay taxes because they use bitcoin. Find me an authority who says that. Of course you could use civil disobedience and just refuse. I can respect that. But it will not keep you out of jail.
A better option is to do what people who understand real power do. Take a role in the process of lawmaking.    

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June 19, 2013, 07:52:24 PM
 #205

I agree that bitcoin may not be what is regulated, but if you plan on selling bitcoin for $USD then you certainly will be. The USA does not have the power to impose taxation on the world, but it can and does impose a tax on the use of dollars.
All I am saying is that if you think exchanges of fiat for BTC are not going to be regulated, your living in a dream. I have seen people here express their opinion that they do not have to pay taxes because they use bitcoin. Find me an authority who says that. Of course you could use civil disobedience and just refuse. I can respect that. But it will not keep you out of jail.
A better option is to do what people who understand real power do. Take a role in the process of lawmaking.    

Ill give you an example - if you are a gold miner do you pay tax when you dig the gold out of the ground or when you sell it?

That is why you do not pay tax on bitcoins

If you sell the little buggers for FIAT then you have to pay tax

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June 19, 2013, 07:59:34 PM
 #206

[...]
The american IRS has as much power to tax bitcoin directly as they have the power to enforce the euro to be taxed at 50%

Not sure what you mean

Quote
american IRS can only tax and control and make demands on american currency..

the eurozone can only tax and control and make demands on euro currency..

the UK HMRC can only tax and control and make demands on the UK currency..

Don't know about the other two, but no currency needs to get involved for the IRS to act against you -- You have land? You owe.  You changed Joe's plugs & he unclogged your sink?  You owe.  You owe in US currency, but you don't need to trade in it to owe.

Quote
yea they may have relationships with each other and agree on advice from their partners. but this does not mean that IRS/FINCEN/HMRC have authority of a currency not belonging to them.. they can only regulate it if the people that do own it fully and voluntarily agree to it.

How i wish that were true.  It's not.  You can trade in Monopoly money for all they care -- if you end up with value, they want their share.

Quote
bitcoin is not owned by a country. so please get your heads out of the sand.. bitcoins cannot be taxed.. only when converted into native FIAT will that native countries laws start to apply.
 

Or stuff.  Fiat or stuff.  Otherwise Londoners would be paid in $$$ & New Yorkers in Pounds, and no one would have to pay tax.

Quote
so lets start building bitcoin only businesses. bitcoin only telecoms companys, grocery stores, lets move away from FIAT and choke the financial industry.

As soon as the grocery stores can pay their suppliers in bitcoin, and their suppliers pay their suppliers with bitcoin, and turtles all the way down... Smiley
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June 19, 2013, 08:05:13 PM
 #207

I agree that bitcoin may not be what is regulated, but if you plan on selling bitcoin for $USD then you certainly will be. The USA does not have the power to impose taxation on the world, but it can and does impose a tax on the use of dollars.
All I am saying is that if you think exchanges of fiat for BTC are not going to be regulated, your living in a dream. I have seen people here express their opinion that they do not have to pay taxes because they use bitcoin. Find me an authority who says that. Of course you could use civil disobedience and just refuse. I can respect that. But it will not keep you out of jail.
A better option is to do what people who understand real power do. Take a role in the process of lawmaking.    

Ill give you an example - if you are a gold miner do you pay tax when you dig the gold out of the ground or when you sell it?

If you want to be a law-abiding Joe, you have to file for income tax just like anyone else.  Will you get on the IRS radar?  Not unless you're a large mining operation.  Will you be technically breaking the law by not filing?  Sure.

Quote
That is why you do not pay tax on bitcoins

If you sell the little buggers for FIAT then you have to pay tax

If i work for a car dealership and get a car a month instead of $$$, i don't need to pay taxes?
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June 19, 2013, 08:17:48 PM
 #208

I agree that bitcoin may not be what is regulated, but if you plan on selling bitcoin for $USD then you certainly will be. The USA does not have the power to impose taxation on the world, but it can and does impose a tax on the use of dollars.
All I am saying is that if you think exchanges of fiat for BTC are not going to be regulated, your living in a dream. I have seen people here express their opinion that they do not have to pay taxes because they use bitcoin. Find me an authority who says that. Of course you could use civil disobedience and just refuse. I can respect that. But it will not keep you out of jail.
A better option is to do what people who understand real power do. Take a role in the process of lawmaking.    

Ill give you an example - if you are a gold miner do you pay tax when you dig the gold out of the ground or when you sell it?

If you want to be a law-abiding Joe, you have to file for income tax just like anyone else.  Will you get on the IRS radar?  Not unless you're a large mining operation.  Will you be technically breaking the law by not filing?  Sure.

Quote
That is why you do not pay tax on bitcoins

If you sell the little buggers for FIAT then you have to pay tax

If i work for a car dealership and get a car a month instead of $$$, i don't need to pay taxes?

How are you going to pay taxes with a car? Give the IRS a bumper or maybe a wing mirror?

OK don't use Bitcoins then - keep giving money to the State to bomb people on the other side of the world, waste vast unimaginable sums on nothing bail out banks and have no means to redress the balance.

That is your prerogative.

Read the whitepaper on Bitcoins.

Why are you even involved in the community if you just want to maintain the status quo - I do not understand your logic.

A business does not pay tax until it has a profit. It is really simple - if you have not sold the gold no matter how large you operation is - there is no tax to pay.

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June 19, 2013, 08:24:30 PM
 #209

I agree that bitcoin may not be what is regulated, but if you plan on selling bitcoin for $USD then you certainly will be. The USA does not have the power to impose taxation on the world, but it can and does impose a tax on the use of dollars.
All I am saying is that if you think exchanges of fiat for BTC are not going to be regulated, your living in a dream. I have seen people here express their opinion that they do not have to pay taxes because they use bitcoin. Find me an authority who says that. Of course you could use civil disobedience and just refuse. I can respect that. But it will not keep you out of jail.
A better option is to do what people who understand real power do. Take a role in the process of lawmaking.    

Ill give you an example - if you are a gold miner do you pay tax when you dig the gold out of the ground or when you sell it?

If you want to be a law-abiding Joe, you have to file for income tax just like anyone else.  Will you get on the IRS radar?  Not unless you're a large mining operation.  Will you be technically breaking the law by not filing?  Sure.

Quote
That is why you do not pay tax on bitcoins

If you sell the little buggers for FIAT then you have to pay tax

If i work for a car dealership and get a car a month instead of $$$, i don't need to pay taxes?

How are you going to pay taxes with a car? Give the IRS a bumper or maybe a wing mirror?

The same way you pay taxes on your house -- not with your gutters, but with $$$.

Quote
OK don't use Bitcoins then - keep giving money to the State to bomb people on the other side of the world, waste vast unimaginable sums on nothing bail out banks and have no means to redress the balance.

That is your prerogative.

Did i say anything about being a law-abiding citizen?  I didn't, and i'm not talking about what i want/don't want to do.  The law is not changed by my obeying or disobeying it.

Quote
Read the whitepaper on Bitcoins.

Why are you even involved in the community if you just want to maintain the status quo - I do not understand your logic.

No one's talking about maintenance.  Though if you want to cut against the grain, it sure helps to know which way it goes first.
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June 19, 2013, 08:38:31 PM
 #210

I agree that bitcoin may not be what is regulated, but if you plan on selling bitcoin for $USD then you certainly will be. The USA does not have the power to impose taxation on the world, but it can and does impose a tax on the use of dollars.
All I am saying is that if you think exchanges of fiat for BTC are not going to be regulated, your living in a dream. I have seen people here express their opinion that they do not have to pay taxes because they use bitcoin. Find me an authority who says that. Of course you could use civil disobedience and just refuse. I can respect that. But it will not keep you out of jail.
A better option is to do what people who understand real power do. Take a role in the process of lawmaking.    

Ill give you an example - if you are a gold miner do you pay tax when you dig the gold out of the ground or when you sell it?

If you want to be a law-abiding Joe, you have to file for income tax just like anyone else.  Will you get on the IRS radar?  Not unless you're a large mining operation.  Will you be technically breaking the law by not filing?  Sure.

Quote
That is why you do not pay tax on bitcoins

If you sell the little buggers for FIAT then you have to pay tax

If i work for a car dealership and get a car a month instead of $$$, i don't need to pay taxes?

How are you going to pay taxes with a car? Give the IRS a bumper or maybe a wing mirror?

The same way you pay taxes on your house -- not with your gutters, but with $$$.

Quote
OK don't use Bitcoins then - keep giving money to the State to bomb people on the other side of the world, waste vast unimaginable sums on nothing bail out banks and have no means to redress the balance.

That is your prerogative.

Did i say anything about being a law-abiding citizen?  I didn't, and i'm not talking about what i want/don't want to do.  The law is not changed by my obeying or disobeying it.

Quote
Read the whitepaper on Bitcoins.

Why are you even involved in the community if you just want to maintain the status quo - I do not understand your logic.

No one's talking about maintenance.  Though if you want to cut against the grain, it sure helps to know which way it goes first.

OK here we go again.

Until you sell your bitcoins there is no tax to pay.

If you want to be a law abiding Joe and pay taxes when you legally don't even owe them any tax then fine.

Like any commodity you only pay when you convert the commodity to a FIAT currency. That is the law whatever way you want to play it.

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June 19, 2013, 08:45:51 PM
 #211

[...]OK here we go again.

Until you sell your bitcoins there is no tax to pay.

If you want to be a law abiding Joe and pay taxes when you legally don't even owe them any tax then fine.

Like any commodity you only pay when you convert the commodity to a FIAT currency. That is the law whatever way you want to play it.
You're 100% right Grin

Edit: for the backyard lawyers:  http://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc420.html

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June 19, 2013, 08:59:30 PM
 #212

No offense to anyone here defending regulation... but being scared of government regulators doesn't mean you're "realistic" and "practical," it means you're a socialist weenie.

hehe I like how you worded that  Grin

It's all bullshit. But bullshit makes the flowers grow and that's beautiful.
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June 19, 2013, 09:09:55 PM
 #213

[...]OK here we go again.

Until you sell your bitcoins there is no tax to pay.

If you want to be a law abiding Joe and pay taxes when you legally don't even owe them any tax then fine.

Like any commodity you only pay when you convert the commodity to a FIAT currency. That is the law whatever way you want to play it.
You're 100% right Grin

Edit: for the backyard lawyers:  http://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc420.html



Before getting all sarcastic you should read the link you posted.

I can not fathom how a plumber exchanging services with someone has any relevance to a commodity.

Please explain how that is the case.

Also if the services traded are of equal value there is no net gain - therefore no profit. Business only pay tax on profit. Which bit of this do you not understand.

It is no wonder the IRS can mug off loads of people when they do not understand even the most basic elements of running a business.



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June 19, 2013, 09:16:41 PM
 #214

[...]OK here we go again.

Until you sell your bitcoins there is no tax to pay.

If you want to be a law abiding Joe and pay taxes when you legally don't even owe them any tax then fine.

Like any commodity you only pay when you convert the commodity to a FIAT currency. That is the law whatever way you want to play it.
You're 100% right Grin

Edit: for the backyard lawyers:  http://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc420.html

http://tundratabloids.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/heads-in-sand.jpg

Before getting all sarcastic you should read the link you posted.

I can not fathom how a plumber exchanging services with someone has any relevance to a commodity.

Please explain how that is the case.

Also if the services traded are of equal value there is no net gain - therefore no profit. Business only pay tax on profit. Which bit of this do you not understand.

It is no wonder the IRS can mug off loads of people when they do not understand even the most basic elements of running a business.


Yes, you really should have read the link before you posted it.

Quote from: Topic 420
You must include in gross income in the year of receipt the fair market value of goods and services received in exchange for goods or services you provide or may provide under the bartering arrangement.

Still around.
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June 19, 2013, 09:23:40 PM
 #215

[...]OK here we go again.

Until you sell your bitcoins there is no tax to pay.

If you want to be a law abiding Joe and pay taxes when you legally don't even owe them any tax then fine.

Like any commodity you only pay when you convert the commodity to a FIAT currency. That is the law whatever way you want to play it.
You're 100% right Grin

Edit: for the backyard lawyers:  http://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc420.html



Before getting all sarcastic you should read the link you posted.

I can not fathom how a plumber exchanging services with someone has any relevance to a commodity.

Please explain how that is the case.

A service is a commodity. "Economic commodities comprise goods and services." --wikip.

Quote
Also if the services traded are of equal value there is no net gain - therefore no profit. Business only pay tax on profit. Which bit of this do you not understand.

It is no wonder the IRS can mug off loads of people when they do not understand even the most basic elements of running a business.

You're simply wrong again. Shocked 
"Bartering is the trading of one product or service for another. Usually there is no exchange of cash. Barter may take place on an informal one-on-one basis between individuals and businesses, or it can take place on a third party basis through a modern barter exchange company." --you-know-who.
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June 19, 2013, 09:25:38 PM
 #216

[...]OK here we go again.

Until you sell your bitcoins there is no tax to pay.

If you want to be a law abiding Joe and pay taxes when you legally don't even owe them any tax then fine.

Like any commodity you only pay when you convert the commodity to a FIAT currency. That is the law whatever way you want to play it.
You're 100% right Grin

Edit: for the backyard lawyers:  http://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc420.html

http://tundratabloids.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/heads-in-sand.jpg

Before getting all sarcastic you should read the link you posted.

I can not fathom how a plumber exchanging services with someone has any relevance to a commodity.

Please explain how that is the case.

Also if the services traded are of equal value there is no net gain - therefore no profit. Business only pay tax on profit. Which bit of this do you not understand.

It is no wonder the IRS can mug off loads of people when they do not understand even the most basic elements of running a business.


Yes, you really should have read the link before you posted it.

Quote from: Topic 420
You must include in gross income in the year of receipt the fair market value of goods and services received in exchange for goods or services you provide or may provide under the bartering arrangement.

 Huh  What exactly are *you* reading there?
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June 19, 2013, 09:27:57 PM
 #217

Huh  What exactly are *you* reading there?

It's a direct quote from the page you linked to.

http://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc420.html

Still around.
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June 19, 2013, 09:29:26 PM
Last edit: June 19, 2013, 09:40:07 PM by rovchris
 #218

[...]OK here we go again.

Until you sell your bitcoins there is no tax to pay.

If you want to be a law abiding Joe and pay taxes when you legally don't even owe them any tax then fine.

Like any commodity you only pay when you convert the commodity to a FIAT currency. That is the law whatever way you want to play it.
You're 100% right Grin

Edit: for the backyard lawyers:  http://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc420.html



Before getting all sarcastic you should read the link you posted.

I can not fathom how a plumber exchanging services with someone has any relevance to a commodity.

Please explain how that is the case.

A service is a commodity. "Economic commodities comprise goods and services." --wikip.

Quote
Also if the services traded are of equal value there is no net gain - therefore no profit. Business only pay tax on profit. Which bit of this do you not understand.

It is no wonder the IRS can mug off loads of people when they do not understand even the most basic elements of running a business.

You're simply wrong again. Shocked  
"Bartering is the trading of one product or service for another. Usually there is no exchange of cash. Barter may take place on an informal one-on-one basis between individuals and businesses, or it can take place on a third party basis through a modern barter exchange company." --you-know-who.


Man what is wrong with you? At the very top of the page it clearly states

"This article needs additional citations for verification."

So according to you I can have futures contract in plumbing?

try reading this

http://www.investopedia.com/terms/c/commodity.asp

You have posted the definition of an ECONOMIC COMMODITY not a COMMODITY

You clearly have no idea what you are talking about and are just wildly cutting and pasting any link you find.

I am not discussing this any further with you.

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JordanL
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June 19, 2013, 09:41:43 PM
 #219

I just came across this thread, great topic and I'm sure there is a lot of good conversation. I am going to post-and-run now, and then start reading the entire thread tonight.

The answer is: Of course we want to work with money regulators. We have to, as long as we want to have the ability to convert Bitcoins in to other currencies. If people just wanted to mine Bitcoins and then use them to buy things, without the recipient having the ability to convert the BTC into any other currency, then we wouldn't have to, and they wouldn't care about Bitcoins.

Bitcoin itself can't be regulated... other than by the laws of physics, as it is now. Bitcoin is Bitcoin, and will always be Bitcoin. Governments or industries can not change that, short of taking over control of 51%+ of the network's hash power. What can and has to be regulated is how citizens and companies convert BTC to other currencies. We are all regulated by the laws of some country or other, and the other currencies we use are regulated. We will never get a free pass to use a regulated currency like USD however we want, just because we are using Bitcoin on the other end.

The faster this occurs, the better it will be for the widespread adaptation of Bitcoin.


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June 19, 2013, 10:17:57 PM
 #220

[...]OK here we go again.

Until you sell your bitcoins there is no tax to pay.

If you want to be a law abiding Joe and pay taxes when you legally don't even owe them any tax then fine.

Like any commodity you only pay when you convert the commodity to a FIAT currency. That is the law whatever way you want to play it.
You're 100% right Grin

Edit: for the backyard lawyers:  http://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc420.html



Before getting all sarcastic you should read the link you posted.

I can not fathom how a plumber exchanging services with someone has any relevance to a commodity.

Please explain how that is the case.

A service is a commodity. "Economic commodities comprise goods and services." --wikip.

Quote
Also if the services traded are of equal value there is no net gain - therefore no profit. Business only pay tax on profit. Which bit of this do you not understand.

It is no wonder the IRS can mug off loads of people when they do not understand even the most basic elements of running a business.

You're simply wrong again. Shocked  
"Bartering is the trading of one product or service for another. Usually there is no exchange of cash. Barter may take place on an informal one-on-one basis between individuals and businesses, or it can take place on a third party basis through a modern barter exchange company." --you-know-who.


Man what is wrong with you? At the very top of the page it clearly states

"This article needs additional citations for verification."

So according to you I can have futures contract in plumbing?

Huh?  I suppose you could, if that's really what you want to do Huh  Though tell me, what do commodities have to do with Bitcoin?  (Protip:  nothing)

Quote
try reading this

http://www.investopedia.com/terms/c/commodity.asp

You have posted the definition of an ECONOMIC COMMODITY not a COMMODITY

And the commodity you're talking about is a  Huh  Here, i'll send you to the dictionary, vent there: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/commodity

Quote
You clearly have no idea what you are talking about and are just wildly cutting and pasting any link you find.

I am not discussing this any further with you.

Can we still be friends?  Kiss
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