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Author Topic: Do we want to work with money regulators, or keep Bitcoin unregulated?  (Read 19074 times)
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June 17, 2013, 08:49:54 PM
 #141

got it, yea I see your points, makes sense.

I will do that, getting advice from the tax accountants would be the best way to get this setup. I like that first hour free idea haha
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Bitcoin mining is now a specialized and very risky industry, just like gold mining. Amateur miners are unlikely to make much money, and may even lose money. Bitcoin is much more than just mining, though!
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June 17, 2013, 09:00:00 PM
 #142

http://www.fastcolabs.com/3007320/tracking/bitcoin-coming-browser-near-you
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June 18, 2013, 01:59:17 AM
 #143

I think people have got the power flow inverted in their minds ... power flows from the people ...

The correct question is "Do the regulators want to work with Bitcoin .... ?"

So far, it seems not.

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June 18, 2013, 02:15:19 AM
 #144

Unregulated. That's what's nice about open source. Regulation --> Fork --> Unregulation
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June 18, 2013, 12:07:12 PM
 #145

If it becomes regulated many will move onto another coin.
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June 18, 2013, 04:24:37 PM
 #146

I thought the ethos of Bitcoin that it is detached from central banks and governments. Bitcoin was born out of the mayhem of 2008 caused by so called regulated FIAT currencies, and people here are suggesting that we should let them regulate bitcoins. Ill tell you what don't use them - use dollars or any other shite FIAT currency if you want to be regulated.

Did regulations protect anyone from that credit crisis? Millions of innocent people were robbed of their pensions, savings and jobs due to the actions of a few. Bitcoin was created to address this imbalance.

FIAT currencies only represent DEBT if all world debts were cleared there would be NO MONEY in circulation.

Why do you think there is inflation - to force you to store your money in a bank as the interest you receive offsets the loss through inflation. With deflation the opposite is true you do not need banks as your money would increase in value as time passes. If there were no banks there would be NO LOANS and therefore everything would be at a realistic price (Housing for example). The banks feed themselves please see them for what they are exploiters of the worst kind and the most vial and corrupt organisations this planet has ever seen.

Bitcoin is a weapon against the State - please understand this. What it will do is force governments to stop wasting unquantifiable sums and fighting illegal wars as they can not  "steal" your money at the source. They will have to offer value and services people actually want and are prepared to pay for without the threat of imprisonment just as any other business - in essence that is all they are.

People are going about this the wrong way - instead of trying to have a mechanism to exchange your bitcoins for DEBT (Fiat currencies) we should be pushing to remove FIAT from the whole procurement life cycle.

If you could buy food, clothes and other essentials with bitcoins it would nullify FIAT currencies. By exchanging Bitcoins for FIAT you are just strengthening FIAT currencies.

At the end of the day regulation of any kind will destroy Bitcoins - more than likely by poorly executed legislation implemented by cretins.

In the UK they can not even get large companies to pay TAX but the little man is fully exploited - at a basic rate including NI contributions the level of tax is 45% - Do you honestly believe that that is good value? That is regulation working for you right there.

This is why any regulation of any kind should be fought vigorously - if big business wants to join the party and play - it is by our rules and not theirs. Any concession would mean that the idea of bitcoins dies with it.

There is an opportunity here for each and every single one of you to build your own empire unhampered by Governments and regulation. If you want to open a business you can at this very moment, no pleading with the bank for merchant status or credit checks and all the other hoops they make you pay to jump through. They have no right to do that but we have been so brow beaten it is the norm.

Bitcoins were a stroke of genius enabling the common man to take control of his destiny and the creation of money.

Before people start saying - no one would pay taxes - you pay for food, you pay for clothes you would pay for state services if they represented any value - but they don't - for every £1 given to them only 30p actually is spent on the service the rest is just waste.
 


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June 18, 2013, 04:44:30 PM
 #147

We shouldn't be submitting to regulations that don't apply to this new system. Bitcoin is not money. Bitcoin is memory. Those that seek to regulate it are applying old paradigms to one that is subtle yet truly revolutionary.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=234731.0
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June 18, 2013, 08:12:10 PM
 #148

I thought the ethos of Bitcoin that it is detached from central banks and governments. Bitcoin was born out of the mayhem of 2008 caused by so called regulated FIAT currencies, and people here are suggesting that we should let them regulate bitcoins. Ill tell you what don't use them - use dollars or any other shite FIAT currency if you want to be regulated.

Did regulations protect anyone from that credit crisis? Millions of innocent people were robbed of their pensions, savings and jobs due to the actions of a few. Bitcoin was created to address this imbalance.

FIAT currencies only represent DEBT if all world debts were cleared there would be NO MONEY in circulation.

Why do you think there is inflation - to force you to store your money in a bank as the interest you receive offsets the loss through inflation. With deflation the opposite is true you do not need banks as your money would increase in value as time passes. If there were no banks there would be NO LOANS and therefore everything would be at a realistic price (Housing for example). The banks feed themselves please see them for what they are exploiters of the worst kind and the most vial and corrupt organisations this planet has ever seen.

Bitcoin is a weapon against the State - please understand this. What it will do is force governments to stop wasting unquantifiable sums and fighting illegal wars as they can not  "steal" your money at the source. They will have to offer value and services people actually want and are prepared to pay for without the threat of imprisonment just as any other business - in essence that is all they are.

People are going about this the wrong way - instead of trying to have a mechanism to exchange your bitcoins for DEBT (Fiat currencies) we should be pushing to remove FIAT from the whole procurement life cycle.

If you could buy food, clothes and other essentials with bitcoins it would nullify FIAT currencies. By exchanging Bitcoins for FIAT you are just strengthening FIAT currencies.

At the end of the day regulation of any kind will destroy Bitcoins - more than likely by poorly executed legislation implemented by cretins.

In the UK they can not even get large companies to pay TAX but the little man is fully exploited - at a basic rate including NI contributions the level of tax is 45% - Do you honestly believe that that is good value? That is regulation working for you right there.

This is why any regulation of any kind should be fought vigorously - if big business wants to join the party and play - it is by our rules and not theirs. Any concession would mean that the idea of bitcoins dies with it.

There is an opportunity here for each and every single one of you to build your own empire unhampered by Governments and regulation. If you want to open a business you can at this very moment, no pleading with the bank for merchant status or credit checks and all the other hoops they make you pay to jump through. They have no right to do that but we have been so brow beaten it is the norm.

Bitcoins were a stroke of genius enabling the common man to take control of his destiny and the creation of money.

Before people start saying - no one would pay taxes - you pay for food, you pay for clothes you would pay for state services if they represented any value - but they don't - for every £1 given to them only 30p actually is spent on the service the rest is just waste.
 



I'll just quote this and tip my hat to you, sir.

It's all bullshit. But bullshit makes the flowers grow and that's beautiful.
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June 18, 2013, 08:48:27 PM
 #149

From a government/authorities standpoint there are worse things that could happen crypto-currency wise, bitcoin is only just the very first manifestation of an established and working cryptocurrency with a sizable following and capitalization, but most people are fully aware of its shortcomings and weaknesses - and in fact working on improved implementations that could have a much bigger impact on globalization and adoption by black markets. With bitcoin, there's at least a public bitchoin to trace and validate transactions in a p2p network.
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June 18, 2013, 09:25:05 PM
 #150

I thought the ethos of Bitcoin that it is detached from central banks and governments. Bitcoin was born out of the mayhem of 2008 caused by so called regulated FIAT currencies, and people here are suggesting that we should let them regulate bitcoins. Ill tell you what don't use them - use dollars or any other shite FIAT currency if you want to be regulated.

Did regulations protect anyone from that credit crisis? Millions of innocent people were robbed of their pensions, savings and jobs due to the actions of a few. Bitcoin was created to address this imbalance.

FIAT currencies only represent DEBT if all world debts were cleared there would be NO MONEY in circulation.

Why do you think there is inflation - to force you to store your money in a bank as the interest you receive offsets the loss through inflation. With deflation the opposite is true you do not need banks as your money would increase in value as time passes. If there were no banks there would be NO LOANS and therefore everything would be at a realistic price (Housing for example). The banks feed themselves please see them for what they are exploiters of the worst kind and the most vial and corrupt organisations this planet has ever seen.

Bitcoin is a weapon against the State - please understand this. What it will do is force governments to stop wasting unquantifiable sums and fighting illegal wars as they can not  "steal" your money at the source. They will have to offer value and services people actually want and are prepared to pay for without the threat of imprisonment just as any other business - in essence that is all they are.

People are going about this the wrong way - instead of trying to have a mechanism to exchange your bitcoins for DEBT (Fiat currencies) we should be pushing to remove FIAT from the whole procurement life cycle.

If you could buy food, clothes and other essentials with bitcoins it would nullify FIAT currencies. By exchanging Bitcoins for FIAT you are just strengthening FIAT currencies.

At the end of the day regulation of any kind will destroy Bitcoins - more than likely by poorly executed legislation implemented by cretins.

In the UK they can not even get large companies to pay TAX but the little man is fully exploited - at a basic rate including NI contributions the level of tax is 45% - Do you honestly believe that that is good value? That is regulation working for you right there.

This is why any regulation of any kind should be fought vigorously - if big business wants to join the party and play - it is by our rules and not theirs. Any concession would mean that the idea of bitcoins dies with it.

There is an opportunity here for each and every single one of you to build your own empire unhampered by Governments and regulation. If you want to open a business you can at this very moment, no pleading with the bank for merchant status or credit checks and all the other hoops they make you pay to jump through. They have no right to do that but we have been so brow beaten it is the norm.

Bitcoins were a stroke of genius enabling the common man to take control of his destiny and the creation of money.

Before people start saying - no one would pay taxes - you pay for food, you pay for clothes you would pay for state services if they represented any value - but they don't - for every £1 given to them only 30p actually is spent on the service the rest is just waste.


This is a nicely packaged argument. I agree with your view on government corruption. It's the same worldwide. The only thing that changes is the depth and method of corruption. The only problem I have with it is the idea that Bitcoin can act as a replacement currency. Replace the word Bitcoin above with gold and you'll see what I mean. Anything used for trade outside of a government fiat system becomes commodity money. Fiat has no value without government backing. Commodities are plagued with huge fluctuations in price. Buying a loaf of bread would become impossible because at any moment you could either be paying as much as that loaf should cost, as much as a slice should cost or as much as ten bushels of wheat should cost. In order for your commodity system to work Bitcoin would need to be portable, fungible, highly divisible, durable and scarce. Gold has all of these qualities and is already recognized for its intrinsic value - Bitcoin is not. Now substitute the word rock for Bitcoin above. It doesn't make that much sense anymore. Bitcoins to most people today are about as valuable as rocks. Fiat used to be backed by gold because gold was a recognized means of exchange. People were slowly weaned off of gold and on to inflated government backed fiat slowly over decades because the stability and control provided by the government allowed it. Bitcoin can't do this without forming its own government and then Bitcoin would just become fiat. Fiat can get its value because it's backed by a commodity or by a common agreement that it has value. Fiat is a government decree that the paper has value. Bitcoin currently gets its value from the ability to exchange with fiat. Your idea is a generation or two ahead of being workable.

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June 19, 2013, 12:11:27 AM
 #151

It has always seemed to be some kind of backward logic to me, if your company isn't making enough profit you should be removing ads from your website, not adding them, if your governments treasury is getting empty you should be decreasing taxes not increasing them and in the same way if terrorism is becoming widespread you should be promoting liberty, not enslaving people.

Now imagine a country going through a decade of this psychopathic behavior, wouldn't you enroll to defend your country from the foreign invaders?
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June 19, 2013, 12:20:05 AM
 #152

It has always seemed to be some kind of backward logic to me, if your company isn't making enough profit you should be removing ads from your website, not adding them, if your governments treasury is getting empty you should be decreasing taxes not increasing them and in the same way if terrorism is becoming widespread you should be promoting liberty, not enslaving people.

Now imagine a country going through a decade of this psychopathic behavior, wouldn't you enroll to defend your country from the foreign invaders?

Yep!

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June 19, 2013, 02:09:53 AM
 #153

If one country regulate it, users just move their servers to another country. Bitcoin can be mortgaged for a loan in USD, and you get tax reduction for the loan interest  Cheesy

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June 19, 2013, 08:28:16 AM
 #154

having "hopefully" quashed any rumours of bitcoin being regulated, by using the facts of the finacial reports which show they can only control the FIAT gates into bitcoin..

the best thing to do now is:

People are going about this the wrong way - instead of trying to have a mechanism to exchange your bitcoins for DEBT (Fiat currencies) we should be pushing to remove FIAT from the whole procurement life cycle.

If you could buy food, clothes and other essentials with bitcoins it would nullify FIAT currencies. By exchanging Bitcoins for FIAT you are just strengthening FIAT currencies.


We cannot do anything about the FIAT exchange regulations.. after all FIAT is government property and so you got to play by their rules. but by finding less and less reasons to require FIAT. the less reliant on regulations bitcoin needs to be.

so in the future i see a couple fully licenced FIAT/BITCOIN exchanges for each country. and then a mass of businesses that never touch fiat.

remember guys bitcoin is OUR COUNTRY. we are all the president, we are all the congress, we are all the MP's and other political bodies that go into bitcoin. Other countries do not own bitcoin, so they cannot control it. so stop worrying about other countries regulating bitcoin. all they can do is regulate their own FIAT.

I DO NOT TRADE OR ACT AS ESCROW ON THIS FORUM EVER.
Please do your own research & respect what is written here as both opinion & information gleaned from experience. many people replying with insults but no on-topic content substance, automatically are 'facepalmed' and yawned at
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June 19, 2013, 08:36:09 AM
 #155

If one country regulate it, users just move their servers to another country. Bitcoin can be mortgaged for a loan in USD, and you get tax reduction for the loan interest  Cheesy

Isn't that a speculative attack?
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June 19, 2013, 11:07:13 AM
 #156


This is a nicely packaged argument. I agree with your view on government corruption. It's the same worldwide. The only thing that changes is the depth and method of corruption. The only problem I have with it is the idea that Bitcoin can act as a replacement currency. Replace the word Bitcoin above with gold and you'll see what I mean. Anything used for trade outside of a government fiat system becomes commodity money. Fiat has no value without government backing. Commodities are plagued with huge fluctuations in price. Buying a loaf of bread would become impossible because at any moment you could either be paying as much as that loaf should cost, as much as a slice should cost or as much as ten bushels of wheat should cost. In order for your commodity system to work Bitcoin would need to be portable, fungible, highly divisible, durable and scarce. Gold has all of these qualities and is already recognized for its intrinsic value - Bitcoin is not. Now substitute the word rock for Bitcoin above. It doesn't make that much sense anymore. Bitcoins to most people today are about as valuable as rocks. Fiat used to be backed by gold because gold was a recognized means of exchange. People were slowly weaned off of gold and on to inflated government backed fiat slowly over decades because the stability and control provided by the government allowed it. Bitcoin can't do this without forming its own government and then Bitcoin would just become fiat. Fiat can get its value because it's backed by a commodity or by a common agreement that it has value. Fiat is a government decree that the paper has value. Bitcoin currently gets its value from the ability to exchange with fiat. Your idea is a generation or two ahead of being workable.

Interesting point there sir.  In reality though commodities always have the same value - 1kg of Gold is 1kg of gold. What changes is the value of the FIAT currency and that is why you perceive Gold as fluctuating in price - its not - its the FIAT currency fluctuating.

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June 19, 2013, 11:20:33 AM
 #157

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If you could buy food, clothes and other essentials with bitcoins it would nullify FIAT currencies. By exchanging Bitcoins for FIAT you are just strengthening FIAT currencies.


And business taking BTC will still have to file their taxes in Fiat, which means, it is still bound to Fiat. The exchanges provide the means for companies to take BTC in the first place.
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June 19, 2013, 11:36:56 AM
 #158

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If you could buy food, clothes and other essentials with bitcoins it would nullify FIAT currencies. By exchanging Bitcoins for FIAT you are just strengthening FIAT currencies.


And business taking BTC will still have to file their taxes in Fiat, which means, it is still bound to Fiat. The exchanges provide the means for companies to take BTC in the first place.

Would you have to file your taxes in FIAT though? How could you do that considering the BTC USD price fluctuates. At every point of sale you would have to know the exact conversion rate.

You only have to declare what you took in FIAT or when you liquidate your BTC. If you do not liquidate you can not be taxed.

If I walk into a shop and I trade a painting that I created for some goods - how can you declare that? The value is in the eye of the beholder.

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June 19, 2013, 12:11:05 PM
 #159

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If you could buy food, clothes and other essentials with bitcoins it would nullify FIAT currencies. By exchanging Bitcoins for FIAT you are just strengthening FIAT currencies.


And business taking BTC will still have to file their taxes in Fiat, which means, it is still bound to Fiat. The exchanges provide the means for companies to take BTC in the first place.

Would you have to file your taxes in FIAT though? How could you do that considering the BTC USD price fluctuates. At every point of sale you would have to know the exact conversion rate.

You only have to declare what you took in FIAT or when you liquidate your BTC. If you do not liquidate you can not be taxed.

If I walk into a shop and I trade a painting that I created for some goods - how can you declare that? The value is in the eye of the beholder.


Like basically every other trade? The painting has some value, maybe your goods have some value. If this is small, nobody will care. In BTC, it is easy. There are daily lists, you get electronic receipts of sale on most places and every transaction can be looked up in the blockchain.

Basically, in the exchange society, the value of the painting has been created by the trade against goods and therefore the value of the painting is the value of the goods you just traded it for. The difference with a currency is simply putting a universal good against all other goods to indicate a more universal value.
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June 19, 2013, 12:23:12 PM
 #160

Quote
If you could buy food, clothes and other essentials with bitcoins it would nullify FIAT currencies. By exchanging Bitcoins for FIAT you are just strengthening FIAT currencies.


And business taking BTC will still have to file their taxes in Fiat, which means, it is still bound to Fiat. The exchanges provide the means for companies to take BTC in the first place.

Would you have to file your taxes in FIAT though? How could you do that considering the BTC USD price fluctuates. At every point of sale you would have to know the exact conversion rate.

You only have to declare what you took in FIAT or when you liquidate your BTC. If you do not liquidate you can not be taxed.

If I walk into a shop and I trade a painting that I created for some goods - how can you declare that? The value is in the eye of the beholder.


Like basically every other trade? The painting has some value, maybe your goods have some value. If this is small, nobody will care. In BTC, it is easy. There are daily lists, you get electronic receipts of sale on most places and every transaction can be looked up in the blockchain.

Basically, in the exchange society, the value of the painting has been created by the trade against goods and therefore the value of the painting is the value of the goods you just traded it for. The difference with a currency is simply putting a universal good against all other goods to indicate a more universal value.

You completely miss the point - only FIAT currencies can be taxed.

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████→→       ● Tor integrated, 100% anonymous!                                       Get Your FREE Coins NOW!     
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