Do we want to work with money regulators, or keep Bitcoin unregulated?

[Pinwheel]

Options include:

• Work with the money regulators
• Don't work with the money regulators
• Work with the money regulators, but only with the intent to remain unregulated (North Korean style).  Get concessions and institutionalize any advantages (gain wider public acceptance), stall, delay, fork the software, decentralize

it is like asking cannibal, what part of me do you want eat first. Regulators have only one puzzle to solve with bitcoins, how to criminalize it, without popularizing it.

[1713301893]

1713301893

[Schrankwand]

Options include:

• Work with the money regulators
• Don't work with the money regulators
• Work with the money regulators, but only with the intent to remain unregulated (North Korean style).  Get concessions and institutionalize any advantages (gain wider public acceptance), stall, delay, fork the software, decentralize

I argue: Work with them on regulation, keep them away from the code, FAR away.

[justusranvier]

FINCEN is organized crime with a flag on the wall.  So for those who say "let's work with the regulators", you are now negotiating with the most bad-assed, ruthless criminal organization on the planet.  What kind of a deal do you think they will cut with you?

QFT

[legitnick]

Definitly keep it unregulated. Regulated ANYTHING is bad. If its regulated their will surely be tax, and that is unacceptable to me.

[legitnick]

Let us remember, people, that "regulation" means being prevented from engaging in "crimes" that are UNAUTHORIZED.  You see, the anti-money laundering laws are intended to keep money flowing TO THE BOYS and no one else.  The purpose of such laws is to eliminate competition!

Do you know who Dick Grasso is?  He was the head of the New York Stock Exchange.  Here is a picture of Big Dick hugging a leader of the FARC guerillas in Colombia in 1999:



Why would the head of the NYSE be in a Colombian jungle hugging up a sweaty gun-toting rebel leader?  To make a deal to launder drug money through Wall Street, of course!  Big Dick said he was there to invite the rebel leaders up to New York to see capitalism first-hand and if you believe that you are, indeed, a statist tool.

But Big Dick's visit paid off because a few years later we have Wachovia Bank paying a trivial fine for nearly $400 BILLION of drug related money laundering:

"Criminal proceedings were brought against Wachovia, though not against any individual, but the case never came to court. In March 2010, Wachovia settled the biggest action brought under the US bank secrecy act, through the US district court in Miami. Now that the year’s “deferred prosecution” has expired, the bank is in effect in the clear. It paid federal authorities $110m in forfeiture, for allowing transactions later proved to be connected to drug smuggling, and incurred a $50m fine for failing to monitor cash used to ship 22 tons of cocaine."

Did you get that number?  FOUR HUNDRED BILLION!!

And then more recently HSBC gets away with laundering more billions of drug cartel money:

"Senator Elizabeth Warren (Democrat-Massachusetts), has once again revealed the dangerous double standards at the heart of the US justice system. Appearing at the Senate Banking Committee, the former Harvard law professor questioned officials from the US Treasury Department and US Federal Reserve over why criminal charges were not pressed on HSBC or any HSBC official who helped to launder hundreds of millions of dollars for Mexican drug cartels. But just like the last time, she was met with wholly inadequate responses. The impression one got from the Treasury and Fed officials was that some banks are not just ‘too big to fail’, they are also ‘too big to prosecute’, and ‘too big to jail’."

So, when Jennifer Shasky Calvery, Director of FINCEN says THIS:

"Liberty Reserve operated as an online money transmitter deliberately designed to avoid regulatory scrutiny and tailored its services to illicit actors looking to launder their ill-gotten gains"

we know what's going on, right?  She's either too stupid to know what her bosses are up to or she's in league WITH them!  I mean how can we pretend that FINCEN is interested in stopping money laundering when they let BILLIONS and BILLIONS get laundered right under their noses?

FINCEN is organized crime with a flag on the wall.  So for those who say "let's work with the regulators", you are now negotiating with the most bad-assed, ruthless criminal organization on the planet.  What kind of a deal do you think they will cut with you?

thank you very much for taking time and posting it. Drugs money is the only real money what they have in banks.

Thanks for the post, good read. Its amazing just how much money is in the drug economy. People dont realize it, but theres a WHOLE lot of people in this world addicted to drugs.

[Schrankwand]

Definitly keep it unregulated. Regulated ANYTHING is bad. If its regulated their will surely be tax, and that is unacceptable to me.

Man, there already is tax in existing regulation, since you have value added.

If you do not pay the tax in dollar on the value in bitcoin, they simply send you a bill. You can refuse giving them your BTC, but they will then do their best to not only track you but send you the debt collector on tax owed.

they might not get your BTC, but they can just quote you in your own fiat currency. And not give a fuck about not getting your BTC.

[ErisDiscordia]

Let us remember, people, that "regulation" means being prevented from engaging in "crimes" that are UNAUTHORIZED.  You see, the anti-money laundering laws are intended to keep money flowing TO THE BOYS and no one else.  The purpose of such laws is to eliminate competition!

Do you know who Dick Grasso is?  He was the head of the New York Stock Exchange.  Here is a picture of Big Dick hugging a leader of the FARC guerillas in Colombia in 1999:



Why would the head of the NYSE be in a Colombian jungle hugging up a sweaty gun-toting rebel leader?  To make a deal to launder drug money through Wall Street, of course!  Big Dick said he was there to invite the rebel leaders up to New York to see capitalism first-hand and if you believe that you are, indeed, a statist tool.

But Big Dick's visit paid off because a few years later we have Wachovia Bank paying a trivial fine for nearly $400 BILLION of drug related money laundering:

"Criminal proceedings were brought against Wachovia, though not against any individual, but the case never came to court. In March 2010, Wachovia settled the biggest action brought under the US bank secrecy act, through the US district court in Miami. Now that the year’s “deferred prosecution” has expired, the bank is in effect in the clear. It paid federal authorities $110m in forfeiture, for allowing transactions later proved to be connected to drug smuggling, and incurred a $50m fine for failing to monitor cash used to ship 22 tons of cocaine."

Did you get that number?  FOUR HUNDRED BILLION!!

And then more recently HSBC gets away with laundering more billions of drug cartel money:

"Senator Elizabeth Warren (Democrat-Massachusetts), has once again revealed the dangerous double standards at the heart of the US justice system. Appearing at the Senate Banking Committee, the former Harvard law professor questioned officials from the US Treasury Department and US Federal Reserve over why criminal charges were not pressed on HSBC or any HSBC official who helped to launder hundreds of millions of dollars for Mexican drug cartels. But just like the last time, she was met with wholly inadequate responses. The impression one got from the Treasury and Fed officials was that some banks are not just ‘too big to fail’, they are also ‘too big to prosecute’, and ‘too big to jail’."

So, when Jennifer Shasky Calvery, Director of FINCEN says THIS:

"Liberty Reserve operated as an online money transmitter deliberately designed to avoid regulatory scrutiny and tailored its services to illicit actors looking to launder their ill-gotten gains"

we know what's going on, right?  She's either too stupid to know what her bosses are up to or she's in league WITH them!  I mean how can we pretend that FINCEN is interested in stopping money laundering when they let BILLIONS and BILLIONS get laundered right under their noses?

FINCEN is organized crime with a flag on the wall.  So for those who say "let's work with the regulators", you are now negotiating with the most bad-assed, ruthless criminal organization on the planet.  What kind of a deal do you think they will cut with you?

Thanks for bringing this up and elaborating on it so eloquently.

Especially this part:

So for those who say "let's work with the regulators", you are now negotiating with the most bad-assed, ruthless criminal organization on the planet.  What kind of a deal do you think they will cut with you?

is something people who are in favor of regulation should ponder a bit. Seems like many of them still have their rosy colored glasses on and think the government is somehow put there to benefit them and the only reason why it hasn't is because the "right people" are not there to pass the "right legislation". Of course every one of them knows what sort of regulation would be best and beneficial for everybody. Of course.

[legitnick]

Anyone who says bitcoin SHOULD be regulated needs to GTFO

[rovchris]

The people wanting regulation are dumb sheep in all honesty.

All they are doing is repeating some sound byte they have heard somewhere else with absolutely no thought behind it.

If regulation is such a good thing - please explain this to me

2008 Financial Crash

Millions of peoples pensions, savings accounts, houses and jobs - all gone.

Banks and the regulators are now bathing in piles of your money while you are eating out of dumpsters.

Increasing your taxes to give to the banks

This is what regulation gets you - the next person that says regulation deserves to have everything they own taken from them

In my opinion they are to weak to stand up on their own two feet and need the state to tell them how to wipe their own arses.

Little bit of trivia - Governments have killed more of their own people than have died in all world wars.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democide

Some people on this forum are just plain thick - one person was arguing that Plumbing is a commodity - what hope is there?

[legitnick]

No, bitcoin will never bow down to FinCEN pigs

[crumbs]

The people wanting regulation are dumb sheep in all honesty.

Nothing beats an honest opinion on dah interwebz.

All they are doing is repeating some sound byte they have heard somewhere else with absolutely no thought behind it.

Sure, that's a sound bite in itself.

If regulation is such a good thing - please explain this to me
2008 Financial Crash
Millions of peoples pensions, savings accounts, houses and jobs - all gone.

Had i but the time & you but the brain.

Banks and the regulators are now bathing in piles of your money while you are eating out of dumpsters.

I think someone's trollin' you -- most of them use water.

Increasing your taxes to give to the banks
This is what regulation gets you - the next person that says regulation deserves to have everything they own taken from them

You seem like a nice & reasonable fellow.  Busy Friday night?

In my opinion they are to weak to stand up on their own two feet and need the state to tell them how to wipe their own arses.

If they learn how to wipe their ass, what will you do for work, champ?

Little bit of trivia - Governments have killed more of their own people than have died in all world wars.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democide

Oh, you got me!  I actually clicked on that!  And then the talk page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Democide) 
And this talk page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Rudolph_Rummel
Thanks for the lulz, have a kitty!

Some people on this forum are just plain thick - one person was arguing that Plumbing is a commodity - what hope is there?

Don't lose hope, my brainy friend!  Just keep punching, Joe!

[davedx]

No. As long as buyers and sellers have sufficient protection to be able to trade with assurance, I don't see the need, and we already have that via Escrow services.

It's fine, don't fuck with it.

[rovchris]

Don't lose hope, my brainy friend!  Just keep punching, Joe!

Go away and stop hassling me

It is impossible to have any kind of discussion with you.

Your behaviour is not wanted or welcomed.

Please stop trolling me.

[crumbs]

[...]
Please stop trolling me.

[td services]

These photos should really lift Crumbs's skirt while she licks the jackboots of the corporate state, http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/RM1.PHOTOS.ROOM1.HTM . http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/20TH.HTM lists a couple of hundred million really good reasons to be an anarchist.

Little bit of trivia - Governments have killed more of their own people than have died in all world wars.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democide

Oh, you got me!  I actually clicked on that!  And then the talk page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Democide)  
And this talk page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Rudolph_Rummel
Thanks for the lulz, have a kitty!

[rovchris]

These photos should really lift Crumbs's skirt while she licks the jackboots of the corporate state, http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/RM1.PHOTOS.ROOM1.HTM . http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/20TH.HTM lists a couple of hundred million really good reasons to be an anarchist.

Little bit of trivia - Governments have killed more of their own people than have died in all world wars.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democide

Oh, you got me!  I actually clicked on that!  And then the talk page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Democide)  
And this talk page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Rudolph_Rummel
Thanks for the lulz, have a kitty!

I don't understand why anyone would think that the murdering of millions of innocent people  are "Lulz" - it is actually quite reprehensible and they should be ashamed of themselves.

[td services]

People who seek to control other people's lives are sick to the core.

No one here needs my permission to operate a business or use the currency of their choice, so there is nothing anyone is ever going to be able to say to me that will convince me that anyone requires the permission of me plus 50% of the rest of the population to do these things.

[halfawake]

The point about putting taxation right into the bitcoin code - I can't imagine that anyone would support this.  But the question should people work to work with money regulators or keep bitcoin unregulated is a false dichotomy. 

The answer, to me, is that bitcoin probably will be regulated.  The reason you might want to work with the regulators is that if you're working with them, you have a shot at making the regulations more favorable to bitcoin users.  If we don't work with regulators, when the regulations do come they will likely favor the big banks, not bitcoin users. 

Our best bet is to try to keep regulation to the bitcoin exchanges if we can so that the bitcoin economy itself stays relatively unregulated and the only regulation is when we need to cash out to fiat.

[Cranky4u]

Regulate the exchanges but leave peer to peer transactions unregulated....

[Stampbit]

Is this really anyones choice?