Avalon pursuing 7nm technology

[fanatic26]

Noticed this lil tidbit in a press release announcing Proof of Existence being acquired by Canaan.

http://www.coindesk.com/press-releases/canaan-acquires-proof-existence/

Canaan, known for it’s ASIC design and manufacturing expertise has recently closed a round of financing for $43 Million to support its upcoming 7nm designs and to enter the AI market with its first Knowledge Processing Unit (KPU).

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[1713471740]

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[QuintLeo]

Looks like Caanan intends to go with GF or Samsung for their next gen then, as TSMC isn't going to be working on 7nm for a while and Intel uses all of their foundry space internally.

[philipma1957]

Maybe late 2018 for release.

No need for better gear with coins at 2600.

[NUFCrichard]

Maybe late 2018 for release.

No need for better gear with coins at 2600.

There is always a need for better gear, it means there is more money to be made by making better miners with higher speeds and efficiencies.
For a short amount of time anyway, until everyone has the new miners, then it will be a wash.

Same old, same old

[philipma1957]

Maybe late 2018 for release.

No need for better gear with coins at 2600.

There is always a need for better gear, it means there is more money to be made by making better miners with higher speeds and efficiencies.
For a short amount of time anyway, until everyone has the new miners, then it will be a wash.

Same old, same old

No one is releasing 7nm   0.05 watt gear this year for sha 256.

You are correct that new will be released the ASIC L3+

The better x-11 ASIC

The vega gpu .

All going to get out this year.

At the Moment the s-9 is plenty much doing great at making money.

If 7nm comes out based on this announcement by Avalon it will be more then a year from now.

[QuintLeo]

I'd bet late 2019 at the EARLIEST - even AMD isn't talking 2018 for 7nm and they are one of the 2 PRIMARY customers for GF.

 More likely 2020.


 Can't build miners on a node that is still in the "experimental testing" stage.

[philipma1957]

I'd bet late 2019 at the EARLIEST - even AMD isn't talking 2018 for 7nm and they are one of the 2 PRIMARY customers for GF.

 More likely 2020.


 Can't build miners on a node that is still in the "experimental testing" stage.

I was thinking Dec 2018 at best but if it takes till 2019 or early 2020 I would not be surprised.

[Amph]

Maybe late 2018 for release.

No need for better gear with coins at 2600.

well the diff is catching up quickly, and the consumption too, that $2600 per coin won't last even a year if no new gear will be released

still you have to factor dump and everything else that could happen, i think it's time to release by the end of this year a new product with better efficiency

I'd bet late 2019 at the EARLIEST - even AMD isn't talking 2018 for 7nm and they are one of the 2 PRIMARY customers for GF.

 More likely 2020.


 Can't build miners on a node that is still in the "experimental testing" stage.

they might release a 10 nm first, and then in 2020 as you said 7nm, waiting until 2020 to release something new is really a suicide, with the current difficulty trend

[fanatic26]

i think it's time to release by the end of this year a new product with better efficiency

There is nothing coming to market this year that would be anything but a small incremental increase. The technology just isnt there yet.

[QuintLeo]

well the diff is catching up quickly, and the consumption too, that $2600 per coin won't last even a year if no new gear will be released

 Bitcoin price does not care about the difficulty.
 Bitcoin mining profitability is the ONLY thing that does.


 TSMC is talking mid-to-late 2018 for 10nm at the soonest (and that would be very small quantity and very POOR yield).

 They might have a "NVidia Custom" 12nm process before that, per a few rumours about the potential NVidia 2xxx series "refresh", but no hard information on that possibility and anyone but NVidia getting access to that tech would come quite a bit later (and the process is rumoured to only be a SMALL improvement over existing TSMC 16nm process options).

  Again, 2019 at the soonest for anyone other than the "big players" to get access to a new node with a significant performance jump.


 At current price and difficulty, profitability is quite a bit HIGHER on a S9 then it was when they were first released - despite the large diff increase since then.
 There is no need for "new miners" anytime soon to maintain good profitability.

 

[mrb]

My message brings an update a year later to this thread... but as part of Canaan's IPO announce, 7nm is confirmed for the "second half of 2018", see page 94 of http://www.hkexnews.hk/APP/SEHK/2018/2018051401/Documents/SEHK201805150005.pdf

[philipma1957]

My message brings an update a year later to this thread... but as part of Canaan's IPO announce, 7nm is confirmed for the "second half of 2018", see page 94 of http://www.hkexnews.hk/APP/SEHK/2018/2018051401/Documents/SEHK201805150005.pdf

Note 2018 second half development of ai

quoted from page 2

"System Products for Other Cryptocurrencies
We currently have an ASIC product for a cryptocurrency other than bitcoin under research and development, for which we have completed front-end IC design, and expect mass production of final products in the fourth quarter of 2018. As of the Latest Practicable Date, we had received pre-sale orders of over RMB53.6 million, subject to the successful test of prototypes. We will continue to develop different types of ASICs to address potential market demand for products with high performance and repeated computing power that can be used for other types of cryptocurrencies that require high computing power.

We began to develop ASICs for AI applications in 2016, and plan to mass produce chips for edge computing, which are known as KPUs, in the fourth quarter of 2018. Target applications include voice and image recognition functionalities in smart home, smart city, smart surveillance, smart toy, and several IoT applications. As of the Latest Practicable Date, we had received pre-sale orders from a variety of customers in a provisional amount of approximately RMB38.2 million in the aggregate, with the actual purchase amount to be adjusted with reference to the then market price of the products after the prototypes have been successfully tested."



quoted from page 7

 "Our future revenue growth, if any, will depend largely on our ability to expand beyond bitcoin mining application and penetrate into new application markets, particularly those ASIC application markets with demand for high performance and computing power or for other types of cryptocurrencies or AI products, all of which are still under development. Each of these markets presents distinct and substantial risks; and
• Our customers and suppliers are based globally, and an increasing portion of our revenues have been derived from sales to customers outside the PRC. As such, changes in government policies, taxes, general economic and fiscal conditions, as well as political, diplomatic or social events expose us to financial and business risks. In particular, changes in policies and laws regarding holding, using or mining of bitcoins could result in an adverse effect on our business operations and our results of operations. Moreover, if any domestic or international jurisdiction where we operate or sell our products prohibits or restricts bitcoin mining activities, we may experience material loss of revenue"


Looks like they may abandon or shift from mining gear

[Flying Hellfish]

My message brings an update a year later to this thread... but as part of Canaan's IPO announce, 7nm is confirmed for the "second half of 2018", see page 94 of http://www.hkexnews.hk/APP/SEHK/2018/2018051401/Documents/SEHK201805150005.pdf

Note 2018 second half development of ai

quoted from page 2

"System Products for Other Cryptocurrencies
We currently have an ASIC product for a cryptocurrency other than bitcoin under research and development, for which we have completed front-end IC design, and expect mass production of final products in the fourth quarter of 2018. As of the Latest Practicable Date, we had received pre-sale orders of over RMB53.6 million, subject to the successful test of prototypes. We will continue to develop different types of ASICs to address potential market demand for products with high performance and repeated computing power that can be used for other types of cryptocurrencies that require high computing power.

We began to develop ASICs for AI applications in 2016, and plan to mass produce chips for edge computing, which are known as KPUs, in the fourth quarter of 2018. Target applications include voice and image recognition functionalities in smart home, smart city, smart surveillance, smart toy, and several IoT applications. As of the Latest Practicable Date, we had received pre-sale orders from a variety of customers in a provisional amount of approximately RMB38.2 million in the aggregate, with the actual purchase amount to be adjusted with reference to the then market price of the products after the prototypes have been successfully tested."



quoted from page 7

 "Our future revenue growth, if any, will depend largely on our ability to expand beyond bitcoin mining application and penetrate into new application markets, particularly those ASIC application markets with demand for high performance and computing power or for other types of cryptocurrencies or AI products, all of which are still under development. Each of these markets presents distinct and substantial risks; and
• Our customers and suppliers are based globally, and an increasing portion of our revenues have been derived from sales to customers outside the PRC. As such, changes in government policies, taxes, general economic and fiscal conditions, as well as political, diplomatic or social events expose us to financial and business risks. In particular, changes in policies and laws regarding holding, using or mining of bitcoins could result in an adverse effect on our business operations and our results of operations. Moreover, if any domestic or international jurisdiction where we operate or sell our products prohibits or restricts bitcoin mining activities, we may experience material loss of revenue"


Looks like they may abandon or shift from mining gear

There is no way Avalon has any plans to stop selling BTC miners in the near future, they have likely made 10's of millions (or much more..) selling hardware, no company is walking away from a cash cow where customers are LINED up 10 or 20 people deep at times.  What the release is saying IMO is that future revenue growth or new revenue streams will include alt coin miners and AI and other high density computing ASICS.  I don't read anywhere that they are moving away from mining at all.

[fanatic26]

There is no way Avalon has any plans to stop selling BTC miners in the near future, they have likely made 10's of millions (or much more..) selling hardware, no company is walking away from a cash cow where customers are LINED up 10 or 20 people deep at times.  What the release is saying IMO is that future revenue growth or new revenue streams will include alt coin miners and AI and other high density computing ASICS.  I don't read anywhere that they are moving away from mining at all.

A successful business is always expanding and exploring other revenue streams. This is exactly what bitmain is doing with their Sophon AI business. Avalon is just following the industry leader.

[philipma1957]

There is no way Avalon has any plans to stop selling BTC miners in the near future, they have likely made 10's of millions (or much more..) selling hardware, no company is walking away from a cash cow where customers are LINED up 10 or 20 people deep at times.  What the release is saying IMO is that future revenue growth or new revenue streams will include alt coin miners and AI and other high density computing ASICS.  I don't read anywhere that they are moving away from mining at all.

A successful business is always expanding and exploring other revenue streams. This is exactly what bitmain is doing with their Sophon AI business. Avalon is just following the industry leader.

I think that they will shift as bitmain is doing.

[Flying Hellfish]

There is no way Avalon has any plans to stop selling BTC miners in the near future, they have likely made 10's of millions (or much more..) selling hardware, no company is walking away from a cash cow where customers are LINED up 10 or 20 people deep at times.  What the release is saying IMO is that future revenue growth or new revenue streams will include alt coin miners and AI and other high density computing ASICS.  I don't read anywhere that they are moving away from mining at all.

A successful business is always expanding and exploring other revenue streams. This is exactly what bitmain is doing with their Sophon AI business. Avalon is just following the industry leader.

I think that they will shift as bitmain is doing.

Adding additional complimentary vertical markets and new revenue streams can hardly been seen as shifting away from mining.  Neither company has given any indications that their core business is changing at all.  Now that their core business has made them millions and millions of dollars they have the luxury to strengthen the corporation by adding in diversity to their already significantly profitable and relatively stable revenue stream.  Multi billion dollar business don't shift away from their core business while expanding new business, that would not be smart.

[philipma1957]

Adding additional complimentary vertical markets and new revenue streams can hardly been seen as shifting away from mining.  Neither company has given any indications that their core business is changing at all.  Now that their core business has made them millions and millions of dollars they have the luxury to strengthen the corporation by adding in diversity to their already significantly profitable and relatively stable revenue stream.  Multi billion dollar business don't shift away from their core business while expanding new business, that would not be smart.

mining with an asic like the avalon 841 is not what I envision for the future of mining.  But I am typing on a mac mini that feeds a 49 inch tv.  If that tv set had about 2 or 3 chips it would earn some coin more or less as an exotic rebate .  Why do I push this idea right now there are more then 1billion tv sets.

This allows for decentralized miners across the world.

Avalon would be foolish to not at least research this. How many chips are in the 841 what does it hash?

Would you call the tv set mining gear ?

this is what I meant. by abandonment or shifting away from mining gear.

answer to the avalon 841 is 104 chips doing 130gh net of 13520 gh

so 1 chip in a 50 inch tv does 130 gh using 13 watts.  this is close to 2 dollars a month.

x 1 billion tvs = 2 billion a month.

No way this does not happen sooner or later.  Samsung is making the Halong chip they must be looking into this idea.

This is why both bitmain and canaan talk about spreading out their line of products.

I have to think it is the wave of the future.

[rifleman74]

mining with an asic like the avalon 841 is not what I envision for the future of mining.  But I am typing on a mac mini that feeds a 49 inch tv.  If that tv set had about 2 or 3 chips it would earn some coin more or less as an exotic rebate .  Why do I push this idea right now there are more then 1billion tv sets.

This allows for decentralized miners across the world.

Avalon would be foolish to not at least research this. How many chips are in the 841 what does it hash?

Would you call the tv set mining gear ?

this is what I meant. by abandonment or shifting away from mining gear.

answer to the avalon 841 is 104 chips doing 130gh net of 13520 gh

so 1 chip in a 50 inch tv does 130 gh using 13 watts.  this is close to 2 dollars a month.

x 1 billion tvs = 2 billion a month.

No way this does not happen sooner or later.  Samsung is making the Halong chip they must be looking into this idea.

This is why both bitmain and canaan talk about spreading out their line of products.

I have to think it is the wave of the future.

Where does the tv exhaust the heat?   No more tv's on the wall as they will eventually burn it.   I do like your thinking though, something along those lines could be useful down the road.

[philipma1957]

If the tv has 1 chip doing 10 watts making 100 gh. It could cool passive.

May work on 50 inch TVs but not 30 inch.

I would think 1,000,000,000 x 100 is 100 billion gh that is triple the current network.

[mrb]

My message brings an update a year later to this thread... but as part of Canaan's IPO announce, 7nm is confirmed for the "second half of 2018", see page 94 of http://www.hkexnews.hk/APP/SEHK/2018/2018051401/Documents/SEHK201805150005.pdf

Specifically they taped out 7nm in April 2018 and final products are arriving in the 3rd quarter (p. 118)

They had revenues of 1296 million RMB (203 million USD) in 2017 (page I-32). I agree they have zero intentions to abandon the Bitcoin mining industry. Working on AI accelerator chips is just a natural way to expand their business into other areas.