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Author Topic: Solving the Problem of Agent Provacateurs  (Read 2734 times)
bitrebel
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June 19, 2011, 08:28:57 AM
 #1

Instead of allowing the forum to turn into a viper's den of victims and accusations how about some kind of verification of people who register here? I certainly would not mind, if only the forum owners knew. I trust the forum owners.

Just a simple "Verified" sticky next to the name would help everyone tremendously, because I foresee people coming in here and claiming bitcoins did everything from being lost, stolen, and kidnapped, to being trafficked in child slavery and sold to Arabs in the desert, never to be seen again. I can imagine people will come here by the hoards and claim to have this and that happen to them, and their bitcoins...but if people have the option of being known by someone, then the risk is lowered for lies and falsifications.

I just don't know who to trust on here, and who is an agent and who is telling the truth when someone claims their bitcoins were stolen or pilfered or hacked and it just seems that without some protection against this, or advisories, somewhere or an option to be trusted, then it will only continue to get worse from here on out. After all, anyone can register as many times as they want, from a number of different addresses, and only the site owners know if the IPs are the same, but who is checking anyways. If you have to provide proof of who you are, to someone, then I cannot imagine people will say anything but the truth, if they happen to be hacked or stolen from.

If we don't implement this, everyone will be scared away from bitcoins by a few people who constantly post lies and disinformation and unwarranted fears.

And then the real problems and hacks and fears will go on ignored potentially.

Can we introduce a verification system for the forum? Voluntary of course.




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bitrebel
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June 19, 2011, 08:37:43 AM
 #2

Case in point, MeowMixer arrives and posts at 8:13:16 that they were hacked, and at 08:18:33 am, AllinVain is there to reply and offer support for them. Can I really believe this?

How do I know AllinVain and MeowMixer are not one and the same?

Are the Mods checking for this, somehow? Can this problem be fixed somehow?


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ribuck
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June 19, 2011, 08:39:07 AM
 #3

Can we introduce a verification system for the forum? Voluntary of course.
Even assuming for the sake of discussion that such a thing is desirable, I don't think there's any kind of verification system that would be convenient enough for the masses, yet robust enough that it can't be spoofed by an agent provocateur.
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June 19, 2011, 08:44:59 AM
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I think a combination of not being overly paranoid and not being overly reactive will protect us from this oh so very ominous threat. Frankly it would still be easy for the all the "CIA agents" that are on here to become verified, and then whip out their diabolical plan of crying about how they lost their bitcoins. So you'd still be suspicious of verified posters. Also the "verified" would be a bit confusing to some, who might interpret it as some kind of endorsement or official authority.

But I do think it is a good idea to incorporate a reputation system, the kind that is pretty standard on vbulletin boards. Users can +rep or -rep posts, a lot of neg reps will mark someone as having a bad reputation. Though there are some drawbacks to the reputation system as well.
bitrebel
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June 19, 2011, 08:46:04 AM
 #5

Can we introduce a verification system for the forum? Voluntary of course.
Even assuming for the sake of discussion that such a thing is desirable, I don't think there's any kind of verification system that would be convenient enough for the masses, yet robust enough that it can't be spoofed by an agent provocateur.

How about a e-mail verification to a bank account with your name on it, along with a credit card or driver's license?

At least, once it was verified, you could not really sign up again with another alias, right?
That would be very difficult I would assume, but if people were willing to do it voluntarily, we would at least know for sure who we could trust, right?

Or who we could at least have some more confidence in, initially, correct? or no?

Why does Bitrebel have 65+ Ignores?
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bitrebel
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June 19, 2011, 08:50:22 AM
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I think a combination of not being overly paranoid and not being overly reactive will protect us from this oh so very ominous threat. Frankly it would still be easy for the all the "CIA agents" that are on here to become verified, and then whip out their diabolical plan of crying about how they lost their bitcoins. So you'd still be suspicious of verified posters. Also the "verified" would be a bit confusing to some, who might interpret it as some kind of endorsement or official authority.

But I do think it is a good idea to incorporate a reputation system, the kind that is pretty standard on vbulletin boards. Users can +rep or -rep posts, a lot of neg reps will mark someone as having a bad reputation. Though there are some drawbacks to the reputation system as well.

Sure, they could whine and cry all they want about their stolen bitcoins, but they could only do it once from each identity. That more what i'm getting at. Moving towards perfection, knowing absolute perfection is unobtainable.

As it stands now, one person could come on here as 50 different people and whine about 50 different thefts and heists. We have no way to stop or protect against it.

Please do not get me wrong either, I understand i'm being a little paranoid, but we have good reason to be cautious and defend ourselves before we all become victimized by propaganda. I am seeing a trend now, and I have to think, what can we do to limit the bullshit?

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June 19, 2011, 08:51:41 AM
 #7

Case in point, MeowMixer arrives and posts at 8:13:16 that they were hacked, and at 08:18:33 am, AllinVain is there to reply and offer support for them. Can I really believe this?

How do I know AllinVain and MeowMixer are not one and the same?

Are the Mods checking for this, somehow? Can this problem be fixed somehow?



You Sir have some serious issues. If you can't see one possible reason why I'd post and did not even bother to read and attempt to comprehent my post then it would be better if you did not make such wild and unfounded accusations. If the mods checked they'd see we have different IPs.

No you can't really believe "this' because you only believe what you want to. Facts and simple logical explanations elude you. Occam's razor is a foreign concept to you.


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June 19, 2011, 08:55:27 AM
 #8

Can we introduce a verification system for the forum? Voluntary of course.
Even assuming for the sake of discussion that such a thing is desirable, I don't think there's any kind of verification system that would be convenient enough for the masses, yet robust enough that it can't be spoofed by an agent provocateur.

How about a e-mail verification to a bank account with your name on it, along with a credit card or driver's license?

At least, once it was verified, you could not really sign up again with another alias, right?
That would be very difficult I would assume, but if people were willing to do it voluntarily, we would at least know for sure who we could trust, right?

Or who we could at least have some more confidence in, initially, correct? or no?


We could also require users to submit biometric data.
bitrebel
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June 19, 2011, 09:00:02 AM
 #9

Can we introduce a verification system for the forum? Voluntary of course.
Even assuming for the sake of discussion that such a thing is desirable, I don't think there's any kind of verification system that would be convenient enough for the masses, yet robust enough that it can't be spoofed by an agent provocateur.

How about a e-mail verification to a bank account with your name on it, along with a credit card or driver's license?

At least, once it was verified, you could not really sign up again with another alias, right?
That would be very difficult I would assume, but if people were willing to do it voluntarily, we would at least know for sure who we could trust, right?

Or who we could at least have some more confidence in, initially, correct? or no?


We could also require users submit biometric data.

  That's not too funny, because we both know nobody would want or desire that, right? Although I can understand the attempt at humor, and I don't wince at it.
  Many sites currently use some kind of verification system for users to have "trust" in each other. That's not too much to ask, and to make voluntary.

Personally, I prefer a retinal optic scan, paired with biometric data and a DNA double check. Then I might have a little bit of trust.  Wink


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MeSarah
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June 19, 2011, 09:05:10 AM
 #10


How about a e-mail verification to a bank account with your name on it, along with a credit card or driver's license?


Great idea. No security concerns there. Sign me up.

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bitrebel
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June 19, 2011, 09:06:44 AM
 #11

Maybe some would agree, maybe some would argue with me, but I believe that this project needs a good degree of security, and trust, and those are both contradictory in many ways, so a balance must be struck.

This forum is very important and will be watched with scrutiny. If a story about a theft of $500,000, which was only worth $10,000 weeks or months earlier, makes headlines all over the news, because it was posted in this forum, then we need to be watching what is posted here, and by whom, for all of our protection and interests.
Since that cannot be controlled, it can at least be streamlined for trustworthiness among members.

I would sincerely ask the mods to consider it, for everyone's benefit, and the fact that it cannot hurt.



Why does Bitrebel have 65+ Ignores?
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killer2021
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June 19, 2011, 09:30:10 AM
 #12

Can we introduce a verification system for the forum? Voluntary of course.
Even assuming for the sake of discussion that such a thing is desirable, I don't think there's any kind of verification system that would be convenient enough for the masses, yet robust enough that it can't be spoofed by an agent provocateur.

How about a e-mail verification to a bank account with your name on it, along with a credit card or driver's license?

At least, once it was verified, you could not really sign up again with another alias, right?
That would be very difficult I would assume, but if people were willing to do it voluntarily, we would at least know for sure who we could trust, right?

Or who we could at least have some more confidence in, initially, correct? or no?


True but people can give fake information. Thats why I suggest requiring a blood sample verified by DNA analysis and matched up to your name in the FBI master database.

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3phase
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June 19, 2011, 10:03:06 AM
 #13

Instead of talking about ways to control and regulate, how about:

Instructions for using the Bitcoin forums:

1. Trust no one

2. Before you read something, read the title and answer the question: "What does it have to do with ME?"

3. DO NOT at any circumstance get emotional with anything.

4. After you have read a post or a thread, answer the question: "Can I think of something constructive that I can get out of this for MY situation?"

5. Before you post anything, answer the question: "Will I be adding anything of value to the discussion, or will I be wasting someone else's precious time?"

6. If you want to casually browse and read posts, make sure that you HAVE NOTHING BETTER to do at that time.

7. Ignore the above at your own risk.

Number 4 is the key, as an example my take on all these "stolen bitcoins" stories is that I need to take conscious steps to protect myself and my wallet, NOW rather than later. This is constructive and progressive for ME, and it saves me from all the trouble of having to take sides in arguments, denouncing bitcoins, looking for conspiracies or any other option you can think of.

Bitcoin appeared as a self-regulated currency in the face of centrally controlled ones, and I think the forums should match that.

Get 20,000 self regulated users (on their own terms each) and you don't need any verification or other patronizing schemes.

Are those who propose control plans the exact ones that can least control themselves? Because if you can control yourself, why do you need some other authority to do so? And if you can, wouldn't it be better to try and share your way of doing it with your fellow humans, instead of asking for overlords?

And if the case was that people on the forums were actually responsible and conscious about their actions for themselves, what would be the harm that a provocateur could possibly do? A lot of it to themselves I would think.

QED.

Fiat no more.
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Jaagu
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June 19, 2011, 10:16:36 AM
 #14

Can we introduce a verification system for the forum? Voluntary of course.
Even assuming for the sake of discussion that such a thing is desirable, I don't think there's any kind of verification system that would be convenient enough for the masses, yet robust enough that it can't be spoofed by an agent provocateur.

How about a e-mail verification to a bank account with your name on it, along with a credit card or driver's license?

At least, once it was verified, you could not really sign up again with another alias, right?
That would be very difficult I would assume, but if people were willing to do it voluntarily, we would at least know for sure who we could trust, right?

Or who we could at least have some more confidence in, initially, correct? or no?


Mr. bitrebel, your hyperactivity in this issue makes people think that you're yourself 'Agent Provacateur'. If you're going to tie bitcoin user's identities with bank accounts the net result would be exact opposite you are supposed to fight for. Bitcoin is mostly about anonymity, isn't it?
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June 19, 2011, 10:36:15 AM
 #15

OPs BTC -> SR -> LSD
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June 19, 2011, 11:07:45 AM
 #16

Instructions for using the Bitcoin forums:

1. Trust no one

2. Before you read something, read the title and answer the question: "What does it have to do with ME?"

3. DO NOT at any circumstance get emotional with anything.

4. After you have read a post or a thread, answer the question: "Can I think of something constructive that I can get out of this for MY situation?"

5. Before you post anything, answer the question: "Will I be adding anything of value to the discussion, or will I be wasting someone else's precious time?"

6. If you want to casually browse and read posts, make sure that you HAVE NOTHING BETTER to do at that time.

7. Ignore the above at your own risk.

Good list.
I need help with number 6 (and number 5 as well apparently. Assuming you're supposed to do something different when the answer is "No")
freequant
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June 19, 2011, 11:33:56 AM
 #17

The problem of all types of propaganda (bullish, bearish, or provocative) is not as much the message it carries as the fact it is hammered over and over on people who didn't want it but can't help seeing it in the topics list (and therefore get influenced).
The effect won't be the same if such propaganda is restricted  to specific forums.

Imo, we should create the following forums and change the chart to indicate that  posts on such topics out of the forums will be moved by moderators:
- bulls (to advertise that one believes bitcoin price is going to go up)
- bears (to advertise that one believes bitcoin price is going to go down)
- mining enthousiasts (to advertise that one believes mining is profitable)
- mining pessimists (to advertise that one believes mining is over)
- thieve / scam / hack reports (to advertise that one believes he is victim of a crime)
ixne
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June 19, 2011, 12:27:59 PM
 #18

Yes, but who will verify the verifiers?  The CIA? Kissinger and his secret Muntz Tribunal? Bono?

I suggest we move even further forward and demand that our hypothetical verifiers send us their power of attorney so we can get to the bottom of this blatant sabotage effort to destroy this forum.  If they're not really selling tricks for Nixon's reanimated corpse and the Goldman 6, they've got nothing to hide, right?  Q.E.D.
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June 19, 2011, 01:23:28 PM
 #19

Can we introduce a verification system for the forum? Voluntary of course.
Even assuming for the sake of discussion that such a thing is desirable, I don't think there's any kind of verification system that would be convenient enough for the masses, yet robust enough that it can't be spoofed by an agent provocateur.

How about a e-mail verification to a bank account with your name on it, along with a credit card or driver's license?

At least, once it was verified, you could not really sign up again with another alias, right?
That would be very difficult I would assume, but if people were willing to do it voluntarily, we would at least know for sure who we could trust, right?

Or who we could at least have some more confidence in, initially, correct? or no?


Looks like someone isn't ready to play with the big kids.  Go back to the sandbox until you can walk. 

The fact you'd suggest tying forum accounts to meatspace identities reveals you are either an agent or completely out of touch with bitcoin users.  Either way, I will not be trusting or even reading anything you say beyond this.
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June 19, 2011, 01:52:39 PM
 #20

@AllYourBase

I agree. Was this anonymous currency created to cry for DNA samples or direct personal identication? Than i can also use my credit card and forget about Bitcoin.

I think we have to life with "propaganda". I see not such big problems for the forum itself if everybody is using his brain and is aware of "social-engineering".

[EDIT:] OK, forget the DNA scan. I just read over the irony.
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