Jihan/Ver, BIP148/UASF, r/bitcoin r/btc... how do I sift through the BS?

[johnwick3]

So I'm no where near as tech savy as the top minds in Bitcoin's field, but I do have a very strong understanding of what Bitcoin currently is and how it can potentially change the world... I spend a lot of time reading about new bitcoin stuff on reddit, specifically... but what I want to know is this...

r/btc and r/bitcoin are so polar opposite in terms of viewpoint it's almost impossible for me to figure out who is full of garbage and who is not... who is being honest and who is not?  How am I possibly supposed to know?  Are both sides being completely honest and operating with bitcoin's best interest and just have a strong disagreement, or is one side of the argument being disingenuous for personal gain or even more malicious reasons such as trying to kill Bitcoin?

Honestly, both sides seem so passionately in opposition of one another that I have a hard time deciphering what's what... it would appear from a completely neutral and outsider's perspective that has no dog in this hunt other than the betterment of Bitcoin that the guys in favor of UASF are telling the truth, but I really don't know... I really don't.

I have read a lot over the past year but I am still no where near up to speed as to where I'd like to one day... so who's full of it?  What exactly is going on within the Bitcoin community?

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[25hashcoin]

/r/bitcoin is a a completely 100% proven censored cesspit and echo chamber. Stay away and you will not be so lost.

[TryNinja]

/r/bitcoin is a a completely 100% proven censored cesspit and echo chamber. Stay away and you will not be so lost.

Does that mean Big Blocks are the right solution for the scalability problem? Because everything I see on /r/bitcoin is about how Segwit is the only solution and how Jihan and BU supporters are the bad guys.

On the other side, /r/btc is exactly the oposite. They criticize the Core team and say UASF will split and destroy Bitcoin.

Care to explain to me which side is the right one and why?

[iluvpie60]

From what I read here and on /r/btc, /r/btc is more like us. Seems like /r/bitcoin is the standard reddit user who doesn't understand bitcoin or even have/use it.

They continually blame Jihan for everything, despite the fact that he sells all of his miners to the open public, which means anyone can mine in any pool. People don't have to mine in his pool either, they can just switch. So the fact he has a 16% hashing power in his pool kind of tells a different story than /r/bitcoin likes to make believe.

[franky1]

UASF translates to this

if bip9 segwit is not activated by august 1st 2017...  bip148 starts to run too..
pools are then made to flag a certain flag
"set the nVersion header top 3 bits to 001 together with bit field (1<<1) (according to the existing segwit deployment)."
and any block that does not. will get rejected. (causing orphans and block drama between august and november.

this is to falsify a 100% acceptance of sgwit by only displaying blocks that flag it.

yep the blocks getting rejected are valid blocks but being fraudulently ignored purely to falsify the results of a bip9 flag

its like having a general election but then burning the ballot papers of anyone not voting (uk) tory (us) republican. just to get a 33% vote to appear as a 100% vote for (uk) tory (us) republican.

core have don this
1. removed the many fe mechanisms that made tx fee's fair
2. removed real consensus with their 'soft' baiting
3. promised the unpromisable
4. provided nothing of benefit.

and now causing more drama. blaming everyone else..
and soon all the main core team are going to move over to litecoin. even gmaxwell has hinted this. along with gmaxwells main funding 'boss' DCG has shown desire of litecoin.

[25hashcoin]

/r/bitcoin is a a completely 100% proven censored cesspit and echo chamber. Stay away and you will not be so lost.

Does that mean Big Blocks are the right solution for the scalability problem? Because everything I see on /r/bitcoin is about how Segwit is the only solution and how Jihan and BU supporters are the bad guys.

On the other side, /r/btc is exactly the oposite. They criticize the Core team and say UASF will split and destroy Bitcoin.

Care to explain to me which side is the right one and why?

r/bitcoin is the propaganda machine for Blockstream and is HEAVILY censored. Here, check this out: https://keepingstock.net/an-open-letter-to-bitcoin-miners-c260467e1f0

[gentlemand]

Well, whaddya know, someone comes here trying to sift through bullshit and gets even more bullshit to sift through.

Everyone from every angle has a peppering of disingenuousness as far as I'm concerned. Everyone's convinced they're right. Anyone who is not right is declared Satan's golfing partner.

As the OP can do nothing about any of it I'd advise him not to worry about it. It will either all be sorted out in the wash or Bitcoin will be left behind as a salutary lesson to all.

My take on it is, Satoshi should've seen this coming when the 1mb limit was introduced and left a roadmap for others to work on. It was objected to in 2010 for the reasons that have panned out exactly as predicted back then.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1347.msg23049#msg23049

Anyone could tell him or you that a daily capacity of 250,000 or so isn't enough. Even if it wasn't the right roadmap, it would be something to draw on.

And here's my prediction for the day - this thread will degenerate into the same old people arguing about the same old things, none of whom have any influence anyway.  

[Itty Bitty]

Looks like some of you are setting yourselves up to lose bitcoin after Aug. 1

[The One]

So I'm no where near as tech savy as the top minds in Bitcoin's field, but I do have a very strong understanding of what Bitcoin currently is and how it can potentially change the world... I spend a lot of time reading about new bitcoin stuff on reddit, specifically... but what I want to know is this...

r/btc and r/bitcoin are so polar opposite in terms of viewpoint it's almost impossible for me to figure out who is full of garbage and who is not... who is being honest and who is not?  How am I possibly supposed to know?  Are both sides being completely honest and operating with bitcoin's best interest and just have a strong disagreement, or is one side of the argument being disingenuous for personal gain or even more malicious reasons such as trying to kill Bitcoin?

Honestly, both sides seem so passionately in opposition of one another that I have a hard time deciphering what's what... it would appear from a completely neutral and outsider's perspective that has no dog in this hunt other than the betterment of Bitcoin that the guys in favor of UASF are telling the truth, but I really don't know... I really don't.

I have read a lot over the past year but I am still no where near up to speed as to where I'd like to one day... so who's full of it?  What exactly is going on within the Bitcoin community?

Bad mistake. Reddit is a pile of crap. Mostly useless opinions and attacks, rather than proper debates.

Understanding is a three-edged sword; Core side, BU side and the truth. You need to find the truth, which is your own understanding based on your research. Ask yourself what is Bitcoin to you? Peer to peer electronic cash (BU, individuals like me) or settlement payment for the few (Core) or whatever. From there you can do you research and decide for yourself. If someone has an opposite view from you, it doesn't mean they are shrilling, bad, wrong etc. It just that they have decided that Bitcoin to them is different from Bitcoin to you. Of course those who can't debate becomes shrillers/FUDs, basically using any arguments, no matter how stupid/childish they look, in order to forcibly persuade oppositions to their side. Ignore those cretins.

Yes, personal gain. Changing the codes in order to siphon fees away from miners to private centralised entity is a no no in my opinion. There is something else in play. Pride and ego. Pride is 1 of the 7 deadly sins. Remove the ego will reduce pride and allows humility. At the moment i see egos all around me. As The One, i see pride and ego useless 'emotions' to have. A small bit of ego in certain circumstance that doesn't affect anyone else is fine. A small bit of pride that doesn't affect anyone else is fine. Pride for a child that wins a race is fine. Thus developers need to evolve as a human being, remove the ego and pride, one removes stubbornness. Then there is greed, another deadly sin. Greed not from the decentralise nature of Bitcoin, but from the centralised nature of those outside Bitcoin, trying to change Bitcoin into an earning stream for themselves. I, and many others, detest this centralisation.

Again, truth is subjective. UASF is a very risky move with many unseen side effects. Many of us see a simple increase in blocksize, whether fixed or dynamic, is something that can easily be done. It is painfully obvious that 1mb, a temporary measure, is too low. No one is asking for 1gb blocksize.

Bitcoin as a decentralised software is working as intended. No one can force a change in codings when there are oppositions, thus preventing the decentralise nature of Bitcoin from corruption. Thus the "civil war" is ongoing.

[The One]

/r/bitcoin is a a completely 100% proven censored cesspit and echo chamber. Stay away and you will not be so lost.

Does that mean Big Blocks are the right solution for the scalability problem? Because everything I see on /r/bitcoin is about how Segwit is the only solution and how Jihan and BU supporters are the bad guys.

On the other side, /r/btc is exactly the oposite. They criticize the Core team and say UASF will split and destroy Bitcoin.

Care to explain to me which side is the right one and why?

No one can tell you that. You must research and decide for yourself. Do you have any BTC? If so, to protect your BTC, do you own work and not overly rely on others.

[potatopower]

/r/bitcoin is a a completely 100% proven censored cesspit and echo chamber. Stay away and you will not be so lost.

ahh, cry me a fucking river, /r/btc is even worse as it is regulated by the bitcoin judas and the bitmain crew, that's why I never use neither of those. But if you really want to help bitcoin then just run a full node that it is in favor of activating the soft work with segwit. To be honest I don't even read any other news because all of it is propaganda at the moment and the only way we can actually give the power over bitcoin is uasf.

[687_2]

So I'm no where near as tech savy as the top minds in Bitcoin's field, but I do have a very strong understanding of what Bitcoin currently is and how it can potentially change the world... I spend a lot of time reading about new bitcoin stuff on reddit, specifically... but what I want to know is this...

r/btc and r/bitcoin are so polar opposite in terms of viewpoint it's almost impossible for me to figure out who is full of garbage and who is not... who is being honest and who is not?  How am I possibly supposed to know?  Are both sides being completely honest and operating with bitcoin's best interest and just have a strong disagreement, or is one side of the argument being disingenuous for personal gain or even more malicious reasons such as trying to kill Bitcoin?

Honestly, both sides seem so passionately in opposition of one another that I have a hard time deciphering what's what... it would appear from a completely neutral and outsider's perspective that has no dog in this hunt other than the betterment of Bitcoin that the guys in favor of UASF are telling the truth, but I really don't know... I really don't.

I have read a lot over the past year but I am still no where near up to speed as to where I'd like to one day... so who's full of it?  What exactly is going on within the Bitcoin community?

I was in a similar same boat for some time. I found this guide to be helpful:

https://www.weusecoins.com/uasf-guide/

I find the newly created celebrity aspect (billionaire CEOs and secret meetings, developers with massive egos, troll armies shitposting on twitter, this forum, /r/bitcoin, etc.) of Bitcoin completely stupid and annoying. I only care about XBT becoming more useful and valuable in time.

I finally took the time to read through that guide and some other resources today, and then decided to set my nodes to signal.

[Carlton Banks]

The answer's pretty obvious.

With 2 mutually irreconcilable sides, there must be a fork whereby both sides can continue in peace on separate blockchains. An agreement, or a technical safeguard, to allow each other to continue peacefully is essential to that plan succeeding.

[ImHash]

The supreme leader Mr, Wu wants the ability to include as many transactions as possible in a single block to have all the fees, so BU army then comes here and any where else to persuade people into believing that Core team is evil and only wants to benefit for their own, but actually Wu is not an evil little man he and others just want to earn more money and that is not a bad thing but it could be considered a bad thing if they are the minority and care nothing for the majority, due to the protocols in bitcoin code if you have 30% of hash power (being minority) you could stalemate any progress and any attempt by the majority. Or you could bribe other miners into agreement and bypass a team of voluntary contributors and ignore their years of work just like that.

[The One]

The supreme leader Mr, Wu wants the ability to include as many transactions as possible in a single block to have all the fees, so BU army then comes here and any where else to persuade people into believing that Core team is evil and only wants to benefit for their own, but actually Wu is not an evil little man he and others just want to earn more money and that is not a bad thing but it could be considered a bad thing if they are the minority and care nothing for the majority, due to the protocols in bitcoin code if you have 30% of hash power (being minority) you could stalemate any progress and any attempt by the majority. Or you could bribe other miners into agreement and bypass a team of voluntary contributors and ignore their years of work just like that.

Do you want to start again? A very long sentence with 1 full stop and many commas (can't be bothered to count), conflicting, confusing.

[johnwick3]

Well, whaddya know, someone comes here trying to sift through bullshit and gets even more bullshit to sift through.

Everyone from every angle has a peppering of disingenuousness as far as I'm concerned. Everyone's convinced they're right. Anyone who is not right is declared Satan's golfing partner.

As the OP can do nothing about any of it I'd advise him not to worry about it. It will either all be sorted out in the wash or Bitcoin will be left behind as a salutary lesson to all.

My take on it is, Satoshi should've seen this coming when the 1mb limit was introduced and left a roadmap for others to work on. It was objected to in 2010 for the reasons that have panned out exactly as predicted back then.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1347.msg23049#msg23049

Anyone could tell him or you that a daily capacity of 250,000 or so isn't enough. Even if it wasn't the right roadmap, it would be something to draw on.

And here's my prediction for the day - this thread will degenerate into the same old people arguing about the same old things, none of whom have any influence anyway.  

Thanks for the link...

Bad mistake. Reddit is a pile of crap. Mostly useless opinions and attacks, rather than proper debates.

Understanding is a three-edged sword; Core side, BU side and the truth. You need to find the truth, which is your own understanding based on your research. Ask yourself what is Bitcoin to you? Peer to peer electronic cash (BU, individuals like me) or settlement payment for the few (Core) or whatever. From there you can do you research and decide for yourself. If someone has an opposite view from you, it doesn't mean they are shrilling, bad, wrong etc. It just that they have decided that Bitcoin to them is different from Bitcoin to you. Of course those who can't debate becomes shrillers/FUDs, basically using any arguments, no matter how stupid/childish they look, in order to forcibly persuade oppositions to their side. Ignore those cretins.

Yes, personal gain. Changing the codes in order to siphon fees away from miners to private centralised entity is a no no in my opinion. There is something else in play. Pride and ego. Pride is 1 of the 7 deadly sins. Remove the ego will reduce pride and allows humility. At the moment i see egos all around me. As The One, i see pride and ego useless 'emotions' to have. A small bit of ego in certain circumstance that doesn't affect anyone else is fine. A small bit of pride that doesn't affect anyone else is fine. Pride for a child that wins a race is fine. Thus developers need to evolve as a human being, remove the ego and pride, one removes stubbornness. Then there is greed, another deadly sin. Greed not from the decentralise nature of Bitcoin, but from the centralised nature of those outside Bitcoin, trying to change Bitcoin into an earning stream for themselves. I, and many others, detest this centralisation.

Again, truth is subjective. UASF is a very risky move with many unseen side effects. Many of us see a simple increase in blocksize, whether fixed or dynamic, is something that can easily be done. It is painfully obvious that 1mb, a temporary measure, is too low. No one is asking for 1gb blocksize.

Bitcoin as a decentralised software is working as intended. No one can force a change in codings when there are oppositions, thus preventing the decentralise nature of Bitcoin from corruption. Thus the "civil war" is ongoing.

Thank you, this is helpful.  Thank you for being as objective as you can be, unlike most of this thread which seems to be a continuation of r/bitcoin and r/btc lol...

I was in a similar same boat for some time. I found this guide to be helpful:

https://www.weusecoins.com/uasf-guide/

I find the newly created celebrity aspect (billionaire CEOs and secret meetings, developers with massive egos, troll armies shitposting on twitter, this forum, /r/bitcoin, etc.) of Bitcoin completely stupid and annoying. I only care about XBT becoming more useful and valuable in time.

I finally took the time to read through that guide and some other resources today, and then decided to set my nodes to signal.

Going to check this out also, thanks.

[Variogam]

Both reddit subs are dishonest:

r/bitcoin is highly censored, you get banned pretty easily if you have different opinion from blockstream core scalling or point out the obvious censorship there. The UASF is a joke without any significant community support (check 2017 NY scalling conference) and it is allowed there only because it fits r/bitcoin moderators agenda to activate SegWit and keep 1MB4EVR.

r/btc you find there so many altcoin pumpers you might get tricked the shitcoins are the next big thing. It is because r/btc is not censored so even slightest relevance to Bitcoin is ok. So always consider what motives particular user have there.

[ebliever]

So I'm no where near as tech savy as the top minds in Bitcoin's field, but I do have a very strong understanding of what Bitcoin currently is and how it can potentially change the world... I spend a lot of time reading about new bitcoin stuff on reddit, specifically... but what I want to know is this...

r/btc and r/bitcoin are so polar opposite in terms of viewpoint it's almost impossible for me to figure out who is full of garbage and who is not... who is being honest and who is not?  How am I possibly supposed to know?  Are both sides being completely honest and operating with bitcoin's best interest and just have a strong disagreement, or is one side of the argument being disingenuous for personal gain or even more malicious reasons such as trying to kill Bitcoin?

Honestly, both sides seem so passionately in opposition of one another that I have a hard time deciphering what's what... it would appear from a completely neutral and outsider's perspective that has no dog in this hunt other than the betterment of Bitcoin that the guys in favor of UASF are telling the truth, but I really don't know... I really don't.

I have read a lot over the past year but I am still no where near up to speed as to where I'd like to one day... so who's full of it?  What exactly is going on within the Bitcoin community?

Proverbs 18:17 applies. Read both sides. It is not highly technical when it gets down to it. Honestly, I can't think of anything I've read from the r/btc (Bitcoin Unlimited) side that is not seriously delusional, but here are a couple recent links from major personalities on their take on this subject:

https://medium.com/@elombrozo/why-i-support-bip148-4b4c0a9feb4d

https://bravenewcoin.com/news/the-legacy-of-bitcoins-bearwhale/

If anyone has a serious article defending the BU side without relying on crackpot claims about the Bitcoin development community selling out their libertarian ideals for some secret, evidence-free sinister plan, please do share for the OP's sake. In particular why anyone but miners should support them, because they are the only ones I see with a motive to support BU.