This gives me hope...

[BitSmile]

http://nashx.com/
A more-or-less decentralized exchange, making use of mutually assured destruction and the nash equilibrium http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nash_equilibrium
Looks promising.

Why was it made?

    Because nobody wants to send their money first.

The basic concept

    Traders risk money for destruction in each other's hands whenever they get into a deal.
    So, when one sends the money first, it doesn't benefit the other to just take it and run.

How is it different than MTGOX and BTC-E

    You are anonymous. No personal or bank information.
    You trade directly person-to-person however you want.
    You keep your money in your wallet, and not with an exchange.

How it works

    Make an account.
    Add funds to risk.
    Make an offer, or take an offer.
    Chat to arrange the details.
    Make the transactions.
    Release or destroy risked funds.
    When your fund is destroyed, you will immediately see a transaction id as a proof of destruction.

How are risked funds destroyed?

    NashX literally destroy them by making a transaction from our wallet to our wallet with minimum possible possible transaction amount with funds to be destroyed as the additional transaction fee.
    So the funds go to miners who process these transactions.
    Why don't we keep it? It gives us a bad incentive to make fake accounts and destroy deals
    Why don't we give it to charity? It gives them a bad incentive to make fake accounts and destroy deals
    Why don't we blackhole it? The process to generate one of those addresses that traders can trust that is truly a blackhole is a difficult task in itself, a process similar to mining. We would take this path if we could give each destroy fund a blackhole address of its own quickly, but it's not.
    Finally, we tried to come up with many other ways such as distrubinting to active traders as well as somehow adding randomizations to the distrubiton process and what not, but all of these other solutions potentially give us control to mess with it, or gives some third-party bad incentive to come destroy deals on NashX.

Who sends the money first?

    It doesn't matter, so it's up to the traders to decide/volunteer/negotiate because nobody has the incentive to change their mind after receiving money.
    However, it is advisable that whoever does not have any previous records of making trades send the money first until the trader has built some reputation on NashX by making trades. Reputation can be checked by viewing the deals they've engaged.

Important to keep in mind

    The amount you risk should be twice the amount you're trading in order to keep the deal in Nash equilibrium.

If I want to trade 10 BTC, does that mean I have to risk 20 BTC?

    No, you can simply risk 2 BTC, and trade 1 BTC at a time 10 times. This doesn't mean you have to make 10 separate offers. When you make an offer risking 2 BTC to trade 10 BTC, it is implied that you will make ten 1 BTC transactions going back and forth with your trader.

Some details

    You can add/withdraw funds you can risk into deals (8 confirmations to add, instant withdraw)
    Your offers will expire after 7 days.
    You will receive an email and a popup notification when someone takes your offer.
    You will receive a popup notificatoin when someone messages you.
    There is a little bit of transaction fee to withdraw your risk funds from you account to cover the Bitcoin and Litecoin sending fees. This currently set a little high to cover the cost of operation.
    There is a minimum amount for withdrawing your Bitcoins and Litecoins.
    You can make offers, and delete offers, but once someone takes your offer, it cannot be deleted.
    Everything, including how much risk funds you have in your account, as well as the offers you're making, and deals you've made, and messages you've sent in those deals are availble publicly for people to see and guage your reputation before they decide to take your deal or not.

How does it make money?

    I'm not concerned about that at the moment, There are some fees for withdrawing risk funds from the account, but that covers regular Bitcoin and Litecoin fees. So, right now it doesn't make any money. I just want to see if people will start using it. That way, I can makes trades on it too. After all, I made it because I'd like trade on it.
    Once it gains significant traction, NashX may do one or more of the following to continue to provide its services: 1. Ads. 2. Monthly Fee. 3. Small fee to take an offer by the offer taker. 4. Higher fees for adding/withdrawing risk funds from your account. These are the only ways where no bad incentive is given to anyone which may disturb the Nash equilibirum for traders.
    It may be sold for some amount of money. Feel free to make me an offer.

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[Zaih]

I really REALLY hope this works out.

Bitcoin NEEDS a decentralized exchange so badly. This could be the one (Well nearly lol, it's better than what we got eh?..)...

Good luck & thanks to the developers

[Rampion]

Very interesting and very needed. Watching

[Inedible]

That's quite novel.

[naphto]

Is it supposed to be used by > 20 people within 20 years?

[BitSmile]

Is it supposed to be used by > 20 people within 20 years?

It's supposed to be used by whoever thinks it is a good service. It started 2 weeks ago, I think we will see major activity there if the word gets to the peoples

[Inedible]

Is it supposed to be used by > 20 people within 20 years?

Sounds like what people said about Bitcoin 4 years ago.

[naphto]

Is it supposed to be used by > 20 people within 20 years?

Sounds like what people said about Bitcoin 4 years ago.

Bitcoin is not even close to suceed or even get adopted by anyone, 4 years later.

[Inedible]

Is it supposed to be used by > 20 people within 20 years?

Sounds like what people said about Bitcoin 4 years ago.

Bitcoin is not even close to suceed or even get adopted by anyone, 4 years later.

You never mentioned anything about success (which is debatable). You're making a point about volume.

[BitSmile]

Bitcoin is not even close to suceed or even get adopted by anyone, 4 years later.

It suceeded at least for me...and thousands of other people using it. One thing is being bearish on bitcoin, looking at market cap, etc, the other is saying bitcoin didn't suceed. People continue to mine, transact, exchanging, buying. This new exchange idea is just great for overcoming the regulations by government, banks shutting accounts off, etcetera. Of course, if you use paypal or something like that they block your account easily. I was thinking about using paysafecards, of course, they're only useful for people in Europes, for instantly funding your Bwin, PKR, and other gambling sites accounts. Doesn't work with U.S. purchased codes because of the anti-online gambling laws, for that there is bitcoin.

EDIT: Another option for funds exchanging: https://ewallet.altercards.com/index.php/Common/cms/cms_id/28

It is like Paypal, but less known, and doesn't fuck customers over.

[stepkrav]

I read the about page, but didn't get it how it actually works. Person sends some BTC to whom? A temporary/escrow-like address? And how can he destroy the BTC if things don't work out? Wouldn't be better to get it back rather than destroying it? I'm confused... 

[reg]

Sounds like what people said about Bitcoin 4 years ago.
[/quote]

Bitcoin is not even close to suceed or even get adopted by anyone, 4 years later.
[/quote]

I disagree! I was buying bitcoin 2 years ago for $2 and now I need to pay $100+ for one!. There are still possibilities of peer to peer transactions of all types and the client is up to 4.8.1 Beta! Also I think you have spelled succeed wrong. reg.

    tips:    1HuDKnHJy73CC2QjbqRrixTEzHd3EFEfRs

[ancore]

my head tells me using mutual assured destruction makes sense in this case
but It's not making me feel better about being the first to send money

somehow this still leaves too much a chance the other party will act irrational and choose mutual destruction (assuming the third party can be trusted)
Isn't consciously being in a MAD situation an unpleasant experience? or am I thinking too much about nukes
how do you feel?

[myrkul]

I trust in the greed of the other party to not want to flush his money down the toilet.

[Jobe7]

I trust in the greed of the other party to not want to flush his money down the toilet.

What he said.

[johnyj]

Alice and Bob reached an agreement of exchange Alice's 1 BTC for Bob's $120

Alice deposite risk fund of 2 BTC at NashX, and Bob deposite risk fund of $240 at NashX

Once they reached agreement, their risk fund will be at the other party's control, but they can only destroy it

Alice sent 1 BTC to Bob, and Bob received the BTC and did a bank transfer of $120 to Alice, then release Alice's risk fund. When Alice recieved the wire transferred USD, she also release Bob's risk fund

But, if Alice sent 1 BTC to Bob, and Bob do not want to send Alice the USD, then Alice will destroy Bob's risk fund, so Bob eventually received 1 BTC but lost $240

Bob can also destroy Alice's risk fund, so after that transaction is recorded in the blockchain, Alice's risk fund should be released automatically

BTC users can always initialize the transaction and get the risk fund back, since the transaction is in the blockchain. Seems the first sent medium will always be BTC

Notice that Alice is still be able to destroy Bob's risk fund even after receiving the USD from Bob's bank, this is the weakness of the system, since there is no way to easily prove that Alice did receive the USD from Bob. Of course Bob can provide a bank transfer record, but that is still not any form of machine readable code

And, NashX itself is also a centralized exchange organization, but does not provide some useful function of an exchange, for example automatically match buyers and sellers by the order size so that you don't need to care about your order size being too big



Anyway I like the idea of having some kind of network based trade insurance system, if a system can guarantee that two users can initiate the transaction without worrying about the other's default, then it is a great system

[ancore]

Bob can also destroy Alice's risk fund, so after that transaction is recorded in the blockchain, Alice's risk fund should be released automatically

BTC users can always initialize the transaction and get the risk fund back, since the transaction is in the blockchain. Seems the first sent medium will always be BTC

doesn't this require the exchange (nashx) to know bob's btc address, I thought the whole point was that this would be anonymous

same with risking usd, it's only possible with litecoin or bitcoin or nashx would need to know your bank account or somehow receive cash deposits and refund

[Aswan]

Add an "EUR" option please

[johnyj]

Bob can also destroy Alice's risk fund, so after that transaction is recorded in the blockchain, Alice's risk fund should be released automatically

BTC users can always initialize the transaction and get the risk fund back, since the transaction is in the blockchain. Seems the first sent medium will always be BTC

doesn't this require the exchange (nashx) to know bob's btc address, I thought the whole point was that this would be anonymous

same with risking usd, it's only possible with litecoin or bitcoin or nashx would need to know your bank account or somehow receive cash deposits and refund

That's the point of using blockchain because all the transactions are visible to anyone. NashX does not have any idea of Alice or Bob's identification, it only record the announced transction account and check the balance of each corresponding account to see if funds have arrived, all these can be done by program, and each time Alice and Bob can use different address

But there is no good way to prove that Bob has sent the USD to Alice, so there is still a risk of either Bod do not send or Alice do not acknowledge

Comparing with an escrow service, the Bob first send USD to escrow and after Alice saw the USD at escrow, she sent the BTC, and escrow will check the blockchain and confirm the transaction, then release the USD to Alice. So anyway fund should arrive at a public trusted location, either blockchain, escrow or exchange, when it comes to USD, you must have a USD account at escrow, then it is almost the same as exchange

And since NashX is an unregulated exchange, it will not be welcomed by the government

[BitSmile]

That's the point of using blockchain because all the transactions are visible to anyone. NashX does not have any idea of Alice or Bob's identification, it only record the announced transction account and check the balance of each corresponding account to see if funds have arrived, all these can be done by program, and each time Alice and Bob can use different address

But there is no good way to prove that Bob has sent the USD to Alice, so there is still a risk of either Bod do not send or Alice do not acknowledge

Comparing with an escrow service, the Bob first send USD to escrow and after Alice saw the USD at escrow, she sent the BTC, and escrow will check the blockchain and confirm the transaction, then release the USD to Alice. So anyway fund should arrive at a public trusted location, either blockchain, escrow or exchange, when it comes to USD, you must have a USD account at escrow, then it is almost the same as exchange

And since NashX is an unregulated exchange, it will not be welcomed by the government

But someone could make an exchange working like this on tor, the government is powerless against the tor network. The site itself would be just for finding someone to exchange with and take care of the risked funds. The only drawback is that you would have to have btc or ltc to risk in the first place, before being able to buy more. It would be good if seongyupyoo released the source code.

Link to where I read about it (not here curiously): http://www.policymic.com/articles/39633/what-do-bitcoin-and-mutually-assured-destruction-have-to-do-with-each-other

Link to the discussion on reddit: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1dmeym/nashx_2nd_reddit_revision_persontoperson_bitcoin/

[MA5H3D]

I really like the idea of this.

Maybe it could be built on the Diaspora project?

[pat1900]

Add an "EUR" option please

Yes, he definitely should add Euros to the currency list. I'd even suggest he sets EUR as the default option at the moment, and replaces the "by" example with "by Euro SEPA transfer". Meanwhile it is so much easier and cheaper to do a SEPA transfer than to do any USD transaction. There are quite a few of us here on the old continent willing to try out the nashX as soon as we can use EUR/SEPA.

[rebuilder]

Where's the decentralization here? You still need to trust NashX with your bitcoins, right?

[digitalindustry]

I spoke about this in Taco's thread - and i contracted the Nashx - designer and told him to come to this forum  - is the OP you Seong Yup Yoo?

sorry i didn't immediately reply to your email been  a bit busy  : D

I'm really hyped about a "plugin" for any wallets client. but you know who knows.

great work anyhow.

[digitalindustry]

Where's the decentralization here? You still need to trust NashX with your bitcoins, right?

no - you put them into a spot where they are destroyed with proof of destruction -  that could be controlled by the client but i guess then there would be hacking problems , but even if it is sent to a central server:


1. why would you want to destroy your coins? except for a test?

and

2. the moment that someone lost coins and , and they checked the Block Chain and could not find the confirm , then that's the moment this whole idea is a failure , (essentially another type of mutually assured destruction equation)

it is decentralized because - it is client to client .
 

[BitSmile]

I spoke about this in Taco's thread - and i contracted the Nashx - designer and told him to come to this forum  - is the OP you Seong Yup Yoo?

sorry i didn't immediately reply to your email been  a bit busy  : D

I'm really hyped about a "plugin" for any wallets client. but you know who knows.

great work anyhow.

No I'm not Seong Yup Yoo, I don't know if he has a forum account, and I don't know him, I just thought it was interesting to share.

[digitalindustry]

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=169204.260

introduced it to Taco's "netcoin" idea, then realized it would be better as a "plug-in" - (after Taco' mentioned that) / or self contained program, contacted the designer and told him to come onto the forum.

[digitalindustry]

I spoke about this in Taco's thread - and i contracted the Nashx - designer and told him to come to this forum  - is the OP you Seong Yup Yoo?

sorry i didn't immediately reply to your email been  a bit busy  : D

I'm really hyped about a "plugin" for any wallets client. but you know who knows.

great work anyhow.

No I'm not Seong Yup Yoo, I don't know if he has a forum account, and I don't know him, I just thought it was interesting to share.

ok i better reply to that email then lol - and ask his forum name so i can link him to this . - maybe tell him to start a new thread.  : D

[BitSmile]

ok i better reply to that email then lol - and ask his forum name so i can link him to this . - maybe tell him to start a new thread.  : D

Yes do that man, he already replied that he will add EUR to the trading options in the next revision, in a few days time.

[pat1900]

He's kept his word, already added quite a few options. It is still very pre-beta, but it looks promising.

[seongyupyoo]

Hi everyone. This is Seong Yup Yoo from NashX.

It's been really difficult getting out my newbie status.

I just released 3rd revision of NashX with significant improvements, and so far feedback has been great.

There are now 5 people with risk funds in their accounts, and they're making offers, and few others who are in the process in attempt to make trades there. One of them is planning on making some trades with his friend first just to get the hang of it.

Two biggest issues found through today's reddit post after 3rd revision was that the About page needs a lot of work.

Also, NashX will support multi-sig transaction in the near future. I'm not sure how near yet as I haven't looked into how difficult it would be to code everything, so I wouldn't recommend you wait for it, but I'm set on implementing that feature as it means better experience for everyone.

That's the top two priorities I have right now, and getting more exposure for NashX and getting people to start using it, and getting feedback from those early adopter traders to keep improving it.

So, I know this is may be a little abrupt favor to ask, but I'd really appreciate it if those of you with reddit accounts, could head over to http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1dxea6/nashx_persontoperson_exchange_nash_equilibrium/

And give it an upvote. It's in HOT section right now, but it's falling. Longer it's up there, more eyes balls looking at it, more people will start trading, and so on.

And let me know if you have any questions about NashX.

Also, I just made a new bitcoin trading simulation game yesterday called Million Dollar Portfolio Challenge at http://milliondollarportfolichallenge.com where everybody gets $1,000,000 and make fake trades against BTC-e rates for fun, strategy practice, and competition between friends for bragging rights and what not.

[420]

does this need funders

[seongyupyoo]

does this need funders

LOL your username is 420, and your avatar a bitcoin with canibus leaf on it. Do you run medical marijuana shop with bitcoin or something?

Of course it could use funding, both NashX and MillionDollarPortfolioChallenge... it might not be obvious, but there's something very interesting going on on the portfolichallenge. I have ideas to turn it into something pretty interesting. It's just a game now, but it's also a first step and a proof of concept in something else. If only I had enough money to buy eTrade... things I can do with their data... LOL

[420]

http://bitcoinstarter.com there's some there it is the same project?

[seongyupyoo]

http://bitcoinstarter.com there's some there it is the same project?

No, I have not posted the project on bitcoinstarter.

[seongyupyoo]

Everyone!, I just released the 4th revision today. hope this is the one that gets people to finally start using it. This is the 4th revision with some significant improvements to the About page as recommended through comments on the 3rd revision. See Changes in 4th Revision for details. See initial release feedback -> http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1d2qp6/nashx_anonymous_p2p_bitcoin_exchange_nash/ and 1st Revision feedback -> http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1dep6e/nashx_revised_per_reddit_review_persontoperson/ and 2nd Revision feedback -> http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1dmeym/nashx_2nd_reddit_revision_persontoperson_bitcoin/ and 3rd Revision feedback -> http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1dxea6/nashx_persontoperson_exchange_nash_equilibrium/

I just posted it on reddit again here -> http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1hxti4/nashx_rev_4_7913_release_trade_anything_you_want/

If you use reddit, please support by upvoting, and leaving comments with your feedback. I would appreciate it very much. Thanks!

[pat1900]

What is the meaning of the amount printed in red? In two of the offers it is 4 x the trade value, but in your own offer "I got $20 for 10 ltc" it is the trade value itself 

[seongyupyoo]

What is the meaning of the amount printed in red? In two of the offers it is 4 x the trade value, but in your own offer "I got $20 for 10 ltc" it is the trade value itself 

That is how much you need to risk to take the offer. You get this back minus 1% fee after a successful transaction.