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Author Topic: [white paper] Purely P2P Crypto-Currency With Finite Mini-Blockchain  (Read 23835 times)
Etlase2
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May 09, 2013, 01:55:23 PM
 #61

And that is? [Decrits doesn't count. It is so complicated that is even hard to grasp not to mention implementing] Smiley

Funny how people keep coming up with ideas that are in decrits though and believe each individual idea deserves its own coin. Also funny how convoluted ideas are coming up to fix the problems that are already resolved or don't exist in decrits. I guess some people just need their hands held? Which is better for cryptocurrency in general: 400 different and flawed currencies that each solve 1 problem, or 1 currency that solves them all? I guess it just depends on your pov.

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aaaxn
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May 09, 2013, 02:06:10 PM
 #62

Funny how people keep coming up with ideas that are in decrits though and believe each individual idea deserves its own coin. Also funny how convoluted ideas are coming up to fix the problems that are already resolved or don't exist in decrits. I guess some people just need their hands held? Which is better for cryptocurrency in general: 400 different and flawed currencies that each solve 1 problem, or 1 currency that solves them all? I guess it just depends on your pov.
I guess it's theory vs reality. Making a coin with proven bitcoin design and only change in database structure is doable and with limited risk. Making your complicated design from scratch requires a much more work and is far more risky. That is why it will probably remain just in theory while other currencies will improve one step a time with real world success.
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May 09, 2013, 02:18:30 PM
 #63

Real world success defined as "market cap of 100 dollars"! What happened to the whole risk vs. reward that bitcoin proponents champion as the reason why early adopters deserve billions of potential dollars for their "smart, early investing"? Seems like most people in reality are scared little girls.

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May 09, 2013, 02:30:39 PM
 #64

Real world success defined as "market cap of 100 dollars"! What happened to the whole risk vs. reward that bitcoin proponents champion as the reason why early adopters deserve billions of potential dollars for their "smart, early investing"? Seems like most people in reality are scared little girls.
No, most people are just not convinced to your design. Guess you just have to take this risk and become billionaire then.
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May 09, 2013, 03:27:00 PM
 #65

Real world success defined as "market cap of 100 dollars"! What happened to the whole risk vs. reward that bitcoin proponents champion as the reason why early adopters deserve billions of potential dollars for their "smart, early investing"? Seems like most people in reality are scared little girls.
No, most people are just not convinced to your design. Guess you just have to take this risk and become billionaire then.

lol

+1

have opened a topic based on this BC idea and making a design from it with the NVC core code Balthazar is on board :

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=199952.0

feel free to contribute !  I can make this big.

tiny rick !
- https://voat.co/v/Contact/
- Twitter @Kolin_Quark
Etlase2
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May 09, 2013, 03:30:08 PM
 #66

lol

+1

The guy whose idea is to take others' ideas and have someone else code them is lol'ing?

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May 09, 2013, 04:09:30 PM
 #67

The guy whose idea is to take others' ideas and have someone else code them is lol'ing?
I guess you call such people managers Smiley
digitalindustry
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May 09, 2013, 04:22:19 PM
 #68

The guy whose idea is to take others' ideas and have someone else code them is lol'ing?
I guess you call such people managers Smiley

that's right friend and as a result we all benefit - we can't all code , but coders can't EVER make marketable ideas either , so i wouldn't call it management so much as a Handshake.

and to Poor Etlase2 (nervous ASIC investor )  i'm actually being up front and trying to give the coders the credit, and more stake than myself (more likely)  otherwise i'd just wait until its made , find an average C++ coder to copy paste it and release it , and the sad thing would be,  that it would be more successful than the original product , but with no credit.

so i see that as nefarious that's why i opened the topic.  

what you need to see is that IF i have a successful design its at least AS valuable as the code.

because as i said, go write some super code and release it on usenet.  :- \

: )  

best way to look at it,  is that its going to happen, i'm going to do it anyhow , so why not try to get the coders in on it , that actually wrote it ?

that way we all benefit - if i'm a good designer they benefit if they are a good coder I benefit - but look around , do i really NEED good code? lol

i'd prefer it but !  

tiny rick !
- https://voat.co/v/Contact/
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May 25, 2013, 04:29:02 PM
 #69

Awesome features with account ledger continues:

Secure coin laundry
We create new account type for coin laundry operators. Account include required fee and amount of coin deposited as collateral. Collateral is needed to make sure operator is honest. Coins in collateral can only be withdrawed with delay, so operator cannot disappear with users funds.

Algorithm of operation is:
1. Users sends transaction to laundry. To transaction a message is attached which describe amounts and addresses where laundry should send coins. Message encrypted with mixer public key, so only he can read it's contents.
2. Operator must execute specified transactions in N next blocks.
3. I mixer fails to execute transactions user reveals unencrypted message. Anyone can check if it matches encrypted version . User has N blocks to do it and if mixer indeed failed to execute instructions then sent coins are returned to sender from operator collateral (maybe with penalty).

Laundry operator gathers user inputs and when he receive enough of different inputs he starts to execute received instructions. He gets fee for that and he does not have incentive to be dishonest because he risks loosing collateral.

With careful calculation of good values for N and making sure there is never more outstanding user transactions than collateral this system can be made totally safe.
Etlase2
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May 25, 2013, 05:18:20 PM
 #70

re: coin laundry, the system I described here could be safely used for any amount of money. If the SH attempts to be devious, all money will simply be returned and he will lose his deposit. And no correlation can be made between the from and the to accounts (other than it is one of the initiators, so 1/x). It seems as if you have given the laundry this information, so you have not protected anyone from the laundry keeping records. This is the same privacy offered by sending your coins to any site that will keep a balance for you and then cash out at a later time.

However, I did not bring up that it could be used for any amount of money in that thread. I am on the fence about including an all-you-can-use coin mixer as part of the protocol. But it can be very versatile. As part of the transaction, you have the amount required and the number of initiators you require. Say you want to clean 50 coins, and you want 99 other people to clean 50 coins with you, then you initiate it and wait. If you are paranoid that someone will send 99 txes to oust you, you only need to send a tx that fits the criteria of another group and join that one's pool.

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May 25, 2013, 05:43:58 PM
 #71

It seems as if you have given the laundry this information, so you have not protected anyone from the laundry keeping records.
Someone need to know how to pair inputs to outputs so he can update account ledger. I don't see a way to avoid that.
Etlase2
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May 25, 2013, 06:40:44 PM
 #72

Blind signature schemes have existed prior to the advent of the internet, and they solve the problem. And in my solution's case (though it has some minor caveats), there is no danger of ever losing your money or having to reveal where you intended to send money if the mixer does something bad. Yours requires that the operator has collateral to cover all transactions, where mine does not. There is also the problem that if not enough transactions are being processed through a mixing account but it is forced to release your transaction, there may be few transactions inbetween that provide reduced linkability. And if the mixer does not release the transaction, your solution completely deanonymizes the transaction if they want to get their money. These are all very significant caveats. And the result is no better than sending your coins to a gambling site or whatever and cashing them out to another account. You could argue the gambling site is more likely to keep records, but coin mixer accounts as part of the protocol is ripe for the honeypotting.

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May 26, 2013, 02:17:01 PM
 #73

Yes, I thought it over and your solution can work indeed and has many advantages over mine.
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May 26, 2013, 07:39:36 PM
 #74

Could you maybe summarize how your proposal is different from "Ultimate Blockchain Compression" (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=88208.0. Ref [4] in your paper.)?

As far as I can see, the Account-Tree is more or less equivalent to the UTXO-Set and the Proof-Chain is equivalent to the merge-mined block-header.
aaaxn
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May 26, 2013, 08:07:04 PM
 #75

Could you maybe summarize how your proposal is different from "Ultimate Blockchain Compression" (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=88208.0. Ref [4] in your paper.)?

As far as I can see, the Account-Tree is more or less equivalent to the UTXO-Set and the Proof-Chain is equivalent to the merge-mined block-header.
I think it is similar, but is better because it drops unnecessary UXTO concept.
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May 27, 2013, 08:48:00 PM
 #76

Another approach to secure laundry using Eltase's ideas.

First let's define Mixing Set.
Mixing Set consists of header and list of inputs to mix. Header includes:
- mixing denomination (1 coin, 100 coin, etc)
- mixing size (how many inputs)
- mixing public key
- time available for ticket redeeming
- input coins used as collateral

Mixing parameters should be standardized so it would be easier to find matching inputs.

Users sends to network intentions to mix which include
- sufficient amount of coins (denomination + fee)
- requested denomination
- requested minimum mixing size
- requested ticket redeeming window
- blinded mixing ticket = blind(random string + payout address). We need random string so every ticket is unique.

Miners monitor received mixing intentions and if miner find set which can be used for creating Mixing Set he can create one.
Miner generates new key pair just for single Mixing Set and includes this key in header. With this key he make blind signatures of all mixing tickets and include such transaction in block.
When Mixing Set is included coins are taken from all participants but are not deposited anywhere.

All mixing participants can now see that their mixing intentions were included in blockchain. They unblind their tickets and with it create output transactions against Mixing Set (their tickets are signed with blocks private key).
Redeem transactions can be included in any next block until redeeming time is up.
When redeeming is over we can have 3 outcomes
- there was less redeemed tickets than input. In this case outputs are credited normally and creator of Mixing Set gets free money.
- all tickets was redeemed. Outputs are credited normally.
- there was more redeemed tickets than inputs. This mean creator of Mixing Set cheated so he looses his collateral (miner who mined block containing first extra ticket gets it) and money is returned to senders. Users can't ever loose their money.

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May 29, 2013, 04:28:24 PM
 #77

great idea! realize it if you can
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May 31, 2013, 07:54:21 PM
 #78

I am very interested in this mini-blockchain idea, and the other ideas in the thread. This could be a very major step forward for crypto-currency.

What steps are being taken to put this into code? What help or resources are needed? Is there any other thread I should be following to keep abreast of this?
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June 01, 2013, 08:36:06 AM
 #79

Could you maybe summarize how your proposal is different from "Ultimate Blockchain Compression" (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=88208.0. Ref [4] in your paper.)?

As far as I can see, the Account-Tree is more or less equivalent to the UTXO-Set and the Proof-Chain is equivalent to the merge-mined block-header.
I think it is similar, but is better because it drops unnecessary UXTO concept.
Yes, basically, that is the answer. It is quite similar in many ways but because we're not trying to apply a change on top of an existing blockchain scheme we can leave out many unnecessary features and make it more efficient, and much easier to build.

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June 01, 2013, 08:38:45 AM
 #80

I am very interested in this mini-blockchain idea, and the other ideas in the thread. This could be a very major step forward for crypto-currency.

What steps are being taken to put this into code? What help or resources are needed? Is there any other thread I should be following to keep abreast of this?
Project implementation thread can be found at link below. As of yet no developers have come forward to help so if you can help in any way or know anyone who can, that would be helpful.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=215936.0

XCN: CYsvPpb2YuyAib5ay9GJXU8j3nwohbttTz | BTC: 18MWPVJA9mFLPFT3zht5twuNQmZBDzHoWF
Cryptonite - 1st mini-blockchain altcoin | BitShop - digital shop script
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