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Author Topic: WARNING! Bitcoin will soon block small transaction outputs  (Read 58161 times)
gweedo
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July 04, 2013, 07:49:46 AM
 #541

I am a stock market writer invited to attend the upcoming July 30th event in NYC;)

Honestly that will be a waste of time...

Where in the world do these "dust" "ghost" "dead" type coins go ?

Dust is added to fees when your trying to spend your coins. So basically they are just to help miners become richer.

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thermos
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July 04, 2013, 07:59:36 AM
 #542

I am a stock market writer invited to attend the upcoming July 30th event in NYC;)

Honestly that will be a waste of time...

Where in the world do these "dust" "ghost" "dead" type coins go ?

Dust is added to fees when your trying to spend your coins. So basically they are just to help miners become richer.


fees to who i don't don't see anything trickling down to the bitcoin community only iron handed censorship to perpetuate a false market for bitcoin money changers and fake ASIC companies NYC;)



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July 04, 2013, 08:42:37 AM
 #543

Why not just use alt crypto? Can someone clear this for me?

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gweedo
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July 04, 2013, 09:06:22 AM
 #544

Why not just use alt crypto? Can someone clear this for me?

Cause some people don't care about alt currencies, I like bitcoin, with the settings that accepted when I downloaded bitcoin-qt in 2011

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July 04, 2013, 09:12:24 AM
 #545

Why not just use alt crypto? Can someone clear this for me?

Cause some people don't care about alt currencies, I like bitcoin, with the settings that accepted when I downloaded bitcoin-qt in 2011
if you don't like where its headed, you obviously don't like bitcoin. That's like complaining about what Obama is doing and saying, "but I like Obama". Well, you don't like Obama cause you're complaining what he's doing.

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thermos
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July 04, 2013, 09:35:00 AM
 #546

I am a stock market writer invited to attend the upcoming July 30th event in NYC;)

Honestly that will be a waste of time...

Where in the world do these "dust" "ghost" "dead" type coins go ?

Dust is added to fees when your trying to spend your coins. So basically they are just to help miners become richer.

no i'm talking about so called "train wreck" type coins produced with syncing backup key issues that vanish into the matrix, and huge numbers of "mystery blocks" that were created years ago and have not been touched for years NYC;)



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July 04, 2013, 09:45:49 AM
 #547

@gweedo: You really need to take some time to understand why dust outputs are bad.

@thermos: You need to learn more about bitcoins basics.

"Where in the world do these "dust" "ghost" "dead" type coins go ?"
-The same place every other bitcoin goes. the blockchain.

"watching you guys make the rules up as you go along"
-They arnt made up, they make sense. you just have to have a large grasp of whats involved. Many people havnt had that 'Aha!' moment of understanding or havnt bothered to research the topic or just plain dont know enough about bitcoin to be in a place to understand the issues involved. Bitcoin is complicated and takes time and effort to understand. But once you understand it, it seems like the simplest thing in the world. This topic along with the other goes over every reason why dust is bad. You either have a sufficient foundation of knowledge in bitcoin to understand whats being talked about and why the change makes sense, or your lacking in some key area.

"where do these large mystery blocks and numbers of "error" coins go when they evaporate? "
-What large mystery blocks?Blocks are part of the blockchain and go nowhere. nothing evaporates, its in the blockchain.

"We know insiders have been dumping and shorting crashing the price "
- people are idiots, 'insiders' is anyone that has enough bitcoins to do it. its not rocket science. Eventually the bitcoins will be more spread out and such things wont be possible.

"What is the story about these early created "mystery blocks"
-What? what mystery blocks? im thinking your not understanding how the blockchain works.

"fees to who i don't don't see anything trickling down to the bitcoin community only iron handed censorship to perpetuate a false market for bitcoin money changers and fake ASIC companies NYC;)"
-Now you seem like a sockpuppet or an alt account. trickle down? this isnt a US stimulus package. this whole iron handed censorship comment only shows your A. a sockpuppet. or B. a Sheep willing to say what you hear without knowing anything solid about bitcoin, only rumor.

"no i'm talking about so called "train wreck" type coins produced with syncing backup key issues that vanish into the matrix, and huge numbers of "mystery blocks" that were created years ago and have not been touched for years NYC;)"
-Are you high? Coins that havnt moved in awhile are because people are saving them or forgot about them etc.


Dust is added to fees when your trying to spend your coins. So basically they are just to help miners become richer.

Dont take this the wrong way, but you seem to be having a bad day and are letting anger control what you say. that comment( 'richer') really has no grounds in facts.


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July 04, 2013, 11:00:26 AM
 #548

@gweedo: You really need to take some time to understand why dust outputs are bad.

LMAO really? LMAO They aren't bad, this is computers not mints. Dust outputs don't take up any more space than a 100BTC transaction. They are painted bad cause the core developers can't fix the blockchain so that is the problem not the dust. That is like itunes saying we aren't going to allow any music less than 30 Secs. It makes no sense.


Dust is added to fees when your trying to spend your coins. So basically they are just to help miners become richer.

Dont take this the wrong way, but you seem to be having a bad day and are letting anger control what you say. that comment( 'richer') really has no grounds in facts.

Actually it does have grounds in facts, the bitcoin-qt adds dust on top of fees when it picking out balances to send. I am not having a bad day at all really.

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Eri
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July 04, 2013, 12:25:53 PM
 #549

Just a couple quick points. They may be the same size as far as data, but for the same amount of btc youd have far more dust transactions. 1btc  = 20 thousand dust transactions of .00005. Thats 20,000 times the amount of data. its because these dust outputs are largely unspendable as inputs that they need to be blocked(soft blocked, can still get around it) if you have a large number of them you cant spend them without a massive fee, unless you connect to a pool that ignores rules for spam, which also allows people to put crap(stuff that isnt money related, links, articles etc) in the blockchain on the cheap. 

Most dust outputs remain unspent because of the fees involved with spending them. that leads to bloat of the blockchain sooner then needed, but its especially an issue for the UTXO set since it has to keep track of all unspent amounts. Pruning would get rid of spent transactions but it cant do anything with money that hasnt been spent.

By richer i only meant you dont have to be rich to mine. Anyone can get involved with mining. It doesnt take a large investment to get some mining equipment and join a pool. Some people that have allot of money can take the risk on mining with vary expensive units for a larger profit, but its also a greater risk. If you wanted you could take out a loan and buy into mining, it would be risky but you could do it, nothing is stopping you. Personally i think the line between 'big investment that paid off' can and has at times crossed over the line of 'foolish investment' but it only has to pay off for it to look like they were smart and knew what they were doing.
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July 04, 2013, 02:26:53 PM
 #550

LMAO really? LMAO They aren't bad, this is computers not mints. Dust outputs don't take up any more space than a 100BTC transaction. They are painted bad cause the core developers can't fix the blockchain so that is the problem not the dust. That is like itunes saying we aren't going to allow any music less than 30 Secs. It makes no sense.

Well no you already know that dust has nothing to do with blockchain size but EVERYTHING to do with UXTO bloat.  Dust (or a very high probability of dust approaching 1) won't be spent thus it remains in the UXTO.  For normal economic transactions the UXTO only grows linearly (related more to the number of discrete entities not total transactions over time).  This is good because the UXTO is a far more critical resource than the unpruned blockchain.   It is highly likely that in the future most full nodes won't even maintain the full blockchain but they will need the entire UXTO.

Having tiny worthless transactions which last forever in the UXTO lowers the efficiency of every node, forever.

Of course you already knew all this but since you love to feign ignorance this correction is more to ensure others aren't mislead.
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July 04, 2013, 02:45:58 PM
 #551

Dust outputs don't take up any more space than a 100BTC transaction.

You have to look at it long-term. Dust outputs won't get spent. 100BTC outputs will get spent and pruned.

Buy & Hold
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July 04, 2013, 04:25:37 PM
 #552

gm Eri:
please read the bitcoin on two computers thread-> it explains how bitcoins can be destroyed.
Bitcoin is still in the early development stage and there is pressure from guv officials and others who want to create more backdoors to the software. This is what i mean about making the rules up as you go along.
Bitcoin is being pitched to Wall Street as some kind of established dirty commodity.
I've been surfing on the internet since 1995, and have several family members who worked for ibm so i know a little about computer stuff.
Hoarding / satoshi mystery blocks held by insiders does not settle well with me at all , bitcoin needs to be more spread out for it to be embraced by the masses.
Bitcoin technical discussions do remind me of rocket scientists' banter.
Call it what you will the fact is the United States created TOR which is where most bitcoins are used for illegal items and services : child exploitation, hacking, hitman / swat service etc etc.  
I'd like to see some evidence that those "ghost" coins that haven't moved in awhile are because people are saving them or forgot about them etc. I suspect some of them are actually held by online "monsters" and were generated when bitcoin was considered only a "game token".
Nobody i am aware of even wants fees, they use bitcoin because they yearn to be FREE.

Don't get m.a.d. get glad, don't get angry get prepared for your argument NYC;)




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July 04, 2013, 04:34:32 PM
 #553

No I don't have the freedom, since miners will still relay the 100BTC transactions, so yeah, not the same thing. Stop using this freedom thing, cause bitcoin has no freedoms anymore. It is pretty much just for greed, everyone wants to make the quick 1BTC here.

Is it a good idea, if the majority doesn't support your idea?
Would you be happier if I send you 10,000,000,000x 0.00000001 BTC or 1x 100 BTC?

LMAO really? LMAO They aren't bad, this is computers not mints. Dust outputs don't take up any more space than a 100BTC transaction. They are painted bad cause the core developers can't fix the blockchain so that is the problem not the dust. That is like itunes saying we aren't going to allow any music less than 30 Secs. It makes no sense.

I think it was a mistake of the developers to change the client mode from 0.00 to 0.00000000 displaying - it resulted in many transactions that are too expensive to be used. You seem to be complaining about the developers, the foundation, etc. and you're talking about your ideas, but you're not implementing them. Can YOU "fix the blockchain"? I can't do that, but I'm not here to complain.

Users are paying for iTunes so it doesn't cost them more - and it's not like iTunes will download all songs to your local disk… I'm pretty sure, people would mine your transaction if you include a 0.1 BTC transaction fee!

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July 04, 2013, 04:42:13 PM
 #554


What is the story about these early created "mystery blocks" can we come out with a dead mystery bitcoin sniffer, someone will prolly come out with a new improved ghost block cracker and call it ghostbusters' zombie miner NYC;)


My initial impression is that you have not done your background reading that any journalist is expected to do.
You are using language that I have not seen anywhere else, i.e., you are making up sensationalistic jargon of your own.

So, you should read Satoshi's white paper.  It is a short read, and it is the reference for what bitcoins are.

It is completely unexpected to ask about "mystery blocks."  The block chain is the complete history of bitcoin from the first transaction.  There is a parser on-line, and it can be viewed by anyone in the world.  It the totally transparent.  Again, you are using sensational language where is in misleading.

Again, you have not done your background homework.  Blockchain.info lets you examine the entirety of the blockchain.

As you would need to do in any effort to report on any subject whatsoever, you must come to the table willing to learn, willing to listen, willing to find facts first, and make judgments second, not the other way around.

If you want to have some questions answered, the community will be glad to help you if you will meet us honestly and learn our answers, not misquote us.

I try to be respectful and informed.
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July 04, 2013, 05:06:51 PM
 #555

"My initial impression is that you have not done your background reading that any journalist is expected to do.
You are using language that I have not seen anywhere else, i.e., you are making up sensationalistic jargon of your own. "



yes it's called being a writer, if you like read this : http://rc3.org/2009/07/30/stealing-a-penny-from-every-transaction/


i'm part of the bitcoin foundation network and i've been invited to attend the upcoming NYC event on July 30th so i'm digging in deep here NYC;)

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July 04, 2013, 05:59:38 PM
 #556

"My initial impression is that you have not done your background reading that any journalist is expected to do.
You are using language that I have not seen anywhere else, i.e., you are making up sensationalistic jargon of your own. "



yes it's called being a writer, if you like read this : http://rc3.org/2009/07/30/stealing-a-penny-from-every-transaction/


i'm part of the bitcoin foundation network and i've been invited to attend the upcoming NYC event on July 30th so i'm digging in deep here NYC;)

Not really. Your involvement only discredits anything you refer to. Digging in deep isn't posting bullshit to general forums when you clearly have no clue what you're talking about and that could be cleared up by reading a FAQ.

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July 04, 2013, 06:01:48 PM
 #557

Using the chain as data storage, rather than currency, costs everybody, because it increases the rate at which people are discouraged from running full nodes.  It increases the costs of that dataset that cannot be pruned, and must be carried for eternity: the unspent transaction output set (UTXO), the list of coins available for spending.

I guess moore laws don't exist anymore in bitcoin land. When bitcoin has no laws, it doesn't mean moores law doesn't apply either.

Moore's Law isn't magic.  It reflects that people push back against wastes of CPU time, disk storage, and other limitations to push technology to its physical limits.  Processor speeds don't just magically increase.  Disk storage doesn't just magically increase.  The assumptions underlying Moore's Law (which isn't a real law) involve bean-counters identifying and eliminating wastes of resources that slow down systems and break them, just as much as they involve people inventing new technologies.

The threat from dust transactions may be on the un-glamorous, bean-counting side of technological improvement, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
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July 04, 2013, 06:22:22 PM
 #558

I'm curious about a particular situation involving change values.

Say I have a wallet with 2 addresses.
Each address has received 1BTC, for a total of 2BTC in the wallet.

Say I then want to send 1.999999 to someone. 

As I understand it (and correct me if I'm wrong here, looking to learn, not to pick fights), I would end up sending the full 2BTC, and then receive the change back.
Now, I know I'm not including the transaction fee in this scenario.  This is really just a thought exercise with regard to the handling of tiny change values.

Would the transaction be blocked because 1.999999 went to one address, but a tiny amount 0.000001 was also in there? 
For the sake of consideration, assume the transaction fee is included in that 1.999999, so that amount paid + tx fee results in the tiny change.

How is this handled?
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July 04, 2013, 06:44:48 PM
 #559

I'm curious about a particular situation involving change values.

Say I have a wallet with 2 addresses.
Each address has received 1BTC, for a total of 2BTC in the wallet.

Say I then want to send 1.999999 to someone.  

As I understand it (and correct me if I'm wrong here, looking to learn, not to pick fights), I would end up sending the full 2BTC, and then receive the change back.
Now, I know I'm not including the transaction fee in this scenario.  This is really just a thought exercise with regard to the handling of tiny change values.

Would the transaction be blocked because 1.999999 went to one address, but a tiny amount 0.000001 was also in there?  
For the sake of consideration, assume the transaction fee is included in that 1.999999, so that amount paid + tx fee results in the tiny change.

How is this handled?


would that now take twice as many confirmations=approximately doubling the amount of computational power NYC;)



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July 04, 2013, 07:52:08 PM
 #560

I'm curious about a particular situation involving change values.

Say I have a wallet with 2 addresses.
Each address has received 1BTC, for a total of 2BTC in the wallet.

Say I then want to send 1.999999 to someone. 

As I understand it (and correct me if I'm wrong here, looking to learn, not to pick fights), I would end up sending the full 2BTC, and then receive the change back.
Now, I know I'm not including the transaction fee in this scenario.  This is really just a thought exercise with regard to the handling of tiny change values.

...


How is this handled?


Yes you must send full outputs.  The amount "at" each address is irrelivent.  Bitcoin works on a concept of outputs.  Outputs are either spent or unpsent.  Unpent outputs becomes inputs for new transactions and in the process are spent.  So I will correct your example and say you have a wallet which has receive 2BTC and 1 BTC.  You wish to pay someone 1.999999 BTC.

The client will attempt to avoid spam at all cost.  As such it will create a tx like this:
Code:
In1: 1 BTC
In2: 2 BTC
Out1: 1.999999  <- your payment
Out2: 1.000001  <- your change
Fee: 0 BTC

The 1 BTC & 2BTC outputs are now spent (and thus will be pruned from UXTO).
Your wallet would now have a single unspent output worth 1.000001 BTC.


I am guessing you are wondering next what happens if you only had a single 2 BTC input.

The tx would look like this:
Code:
In1: 2 BTC
Out1: 1.999999 BTC
Fee: 0.000001 BTC

Since the creation of a 0.000001 BTC output would create dust the client will simply not create it.  In any tx the difference between inputs and outputs is the fee.  Note fees are not explicitly defined in ANY transaction they are just the difference between the tx inputs and outputs.





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