Since when was mtgox the regulartory agency for btc?

[onesalt]

By rolling the price back to it's prior value and not letting the free market decide upon the new value after this attack, Mtgox is essentially saying that they themselves are the de facto controller of the value of bitcoin. I don't use bitcoin because I wanted some regulatory agency to say how much my money was worth, I wanted the market itself to decide that.

mtgox should be shut down anyway for this absolute gross failure to uphold private data.

Oh also which mod deleted my thread, if you have any love for the constitution you'll let people speak their mind instead of enforcing your views upon them. Thanks!

[1714821837]

1714821837

[Durr]

Because early bitcoin guys liked to trade Magic The Gathering cards.

But yeah I agree MtGox should be shutdown or refund millions $ to people who lost because of this.

[paulie_w]

so i guess you also took advantage of this situation and are sad about the reversal? :-)

i feel for you brother. :-)

[onesalt]

No I just don't feel that if people lose faith in the mtgox exchange mtgox should be going "NOPE WE STILL DEMAND YOU EXCHANGE BTC AT THESE VALUES BECAUSE WE SAY SO". The free market should be deciding the price of btc, NOT THE EXCHANGE.

[Icy-]

By rolling the price back to it's prior value and not letting the free market decide upon the new value after this attack, Mtgox is essentially saying that they themselves are the de facto controller of the value of bitcoin. I don't use bitcoin because I wanted some regulatory agency to say how much my money was worth, I wanted the market itself to decide that.

mtgox should be shut down anyway for this absolute gross failure to uphold private data.

Oh also which mod deleted my thread, if you have any love for the constitution you'll let people speak their mind instead of enforcing your views upon them. Thanks!

Are you stupid? Why are there so many morons on this forum? It still is a free market, they are rolling back compromised accounts and the system.

Gox doesn't decide the market at all, once it opens back up people put in the price they want to sell the coins for and buy for as usual.

[Icy-]

No I just don't feel that if people lose faith in the mtgox exchange mtgox should be going "NOPE WE STILL DEMAND YOU EXCHANGE BTC AT THESE VALUES BECAUSE WE SAY SO". The free market should be deciding the price of btc, NOT THE EXCHANGE.

They can't demand anything. The price is a reflection of bids and asks. I would have to assume they simply mean they are going to cancel the fraudulent trade and go from there. They simply worded it poorly. I would even guess that they will do something to allow users to confirm the bids and asks that they had before the fraudulent trade occurred. If they don't, then it's time to start bitching.

They didn't word it poorly, idiots just don't understand how the trade system works.

[airdata]

I understand if people are mad about the roll back.  But at the same time mtgox is the only place capable of damage control here.  

If the sell off was legit, so be it. If it was a criminal act, nobody has any right to profit from it and it's retarded to complain after the fact.

For those who received stolen property today and are happy with that... Cool. It's a felony if the dollar figure is high enough.  If reversing Ill-gotten tranactions isnt the best thing to do in this situation, I don't know what is.

[onesalt]

By rolling the price back to it's prior value and not letting the free market decide upon the new value after this attack, Mtgox is essentially saying that they themselves are the de facto controller of the value of bitcoin. I don't use bitcoin because I wanted some regulatory agency to say how much my money was worth, I wanted the market itself to decide that.

mtgox should be shut down anyway for this absolute gross failure to uphold private data.

Oh also which mod deleted my thread, if you have any love for the constitution you'll let people speak their mind instead of enforcing your views upon them. Thanks!

Are you stupid? Why are there so many morons on this forum? It still is a free market, they are rolling back compromised accounts and the system.

Gox doesn't decide the market at all, once it opens back up people put in the price they want to sell the coins for and buy for as usual.

Hmm then why would they announce they're "rolling back all the prices and accounts to before 3pm 20th june?" if something happens to a company that makes it fail, the owner of the stock market doesn't get to go "sorry chaps I'm not letting you sell at the price you want. You gotta sell at the price I WANT", does he?

[zerokwel]

Normally I would not comment on this but felt like I must

So to put this into context your saying. say someone hacks your bank account and you have say 1 million in there and sends it to me. I can keep that money ?

come on even the stock market has had a roll back before I think it was last year cannot remember what for


and for anyone that feels that they cannot trust bitcoins no more feel free to send yours to the address on my sig. I will more than happy take them off your hands

[DamienBlack]

They aren't going to "make" you sell at that price. They are just returning to a snapshot of when it was at that price. If the market drops or picks up after that, so be it.

[onesalt]

Normally I would not comment on this but felt like I must

So to put this into context your saying. say someone hacks your bank account and you have say 1 million in there and sends it to me. I can keep that money ?

come on even the stock market has had a roll back before I think it was last year cannot remember what for


and for anyone that feels that they cannot trust bitcoins no more feel free to send yours to the address on my sig. I will more than happy take them off your hands

I have never once said keeping the fraudulently obtained money is okay. What I'm saying is, that after thuis money has been obtained and the massive confidence shock in the bitcoin and mtgox has been had, mtgox does not have the right to demand we trade at the same values that were being traded at before. It's akin to the government demanding that money be worth money despite the fact it's valueless.

[IlbiStarz]

They are just saying that they are going to sell/buy at that price when Mt. Gox comes back up. No one is forcing you to trade there, you can still trade on a different site...

[onesalt]

They are just saying that they are going to sell/buy at that price when Mt. Gox comes back up. No one is forcing you to trade there, you can still trade on a different site...

It's extremely difficult to do that when mtgox has a monopoly on the exchanges now really isn't it.

[zerokwel]

thats just poor wording. put up in a rush. what they mean is they will put the database back to what it was before this happened when the price was at 17.50.  then people can do whatever they want. sell em at $2 each etc.

[Shinobi]

It's extremely difficult to do that when mtgox has a monopoly on the exchanges now really isn't it.

So you've answered your own damn question. If MtGox is the only real exchange, then it is not MtGox *saying* that their are the de facto controller, they, in fact, *are* the de facto controller. Some of you are surprisingly ignorant to be playing this game.

[onesalt]

So for some reason a decentralised cryptocurrency has ended up centralised and running to the whims of a obviously insecure company? This seems a good idea.

[Icy-]

By rolling the price back to it's prior value and not letting the free market decide upon the new value after this attack, Mtgox is essentially saying that they themselves are the de facto controller of the value of bitcoin. I don't use bitcoin because I wanted some regulatory agency to say how much my money was worth, I wanted the market itself to decide that.

mtgox should be shut down anyway for this absolute gross failure to uphold private data.

Oh also which mod deleted my thread, if you have any love for the constitution you'll let people speak their mind instead of enforcing your views upon them. Thanks!

Are you stupid? Why are there so many morons on this forum? It still is a free market, they are rolling back compromised accounts and the system.

Gox doesn't decide the market at all, once it opens back up people put in the price they want to sell the coins for and buy for as usual.

Hmm then why would they announce they're "rolling back all the prices and accounts to before 3pm 20th june?" if something happens to a company that makes it fail, the owner of the stock market doesn't get to go "sorry chaps I'm not letting you sell at the price you want. You gotta sell at the price I WANT", does he?

THEY CANT MAKE YOU SELL AND BUY AT THAT PRICE THAT WAS USED TO TELL YOU WHERE THEY ARE RESTORING THE SERVER BACKUP AT.

God damn your retarded.

[bcearl]

They cannot reverse BTC transactions anyway. All they can reverse is their local books. That should tell people a lesson what it means to trust book keepers instead of the P2P net.

[DATA COMMANDER]

Knowingly purchasing stolen goods is a crime. Simply purchasing stolen goods (without knowing that they were stolen) is not a crime. If I steal your television and sell it, it's not reasonable to expect the person who buys it from me to know that it was stolen. If you go after the buyer, you are committing an act of aggression.

[cunicula]

They cannot reverse BTC transactions anyway. All they can reverse is their local books. That should tell people a lesson what it means to trust book keepers instead of the P2P net.

+1

This is why speculation should be organized in a p2p system to the extent possible.

[RomertL]

Knowingly purchasing stolen goods is a crime. Simply purchasing stolen goods (without knowing that they were stolen) is not a crime. If I steal your television and sell it, it's not reasonable to expect the person who buys it from me to know that it was stolen. If you go after the buyer, you are committing an act of aggression.

Dude, the price were down to cents. Are you telling me people didn't know? That would be like selling your 40" LED-TV for 10$. People knew and tried to make a quick buck. Now they are pissed coz MT Gox doesn't let them.

[Shinobi]

So for some reason a decentralised cryptocurrency has ended up centralised and running to the whims of a obviously insecure company? This seems a good idea.

So it took this crash for you to figure this out? What the hell were you doing all this time?

By the way, the result you pose above is the basis for one of the classic arguments for regulation - that self-regulation cannot be sustained and is ultimately more damaging. In the excitement to be Web 3.0, realize that traditional philosophy/theory is not wholly without merit.

[DATA COMMANDER]

Dude, the price were down to cents. Are you telling me people didn't know? That would be like selling your 40" LED-TV for 10$. People knew and tried to make a quick buck. Now they are pissed coz MT Gox doesn't let them.

The price was cents just a few months ago. It is totally unreasonable to expect someone who bought these cheap coins to have known that they were stolen. The Bitcoin economy is extremely unstable. Any number of things could have happened.

Any libertarian or anarcho-capitalist who supports a rollback is a hypocrite.

[speeder]

Dude, the price were down to cents. Are you telling me people didn't know? That would be like selling your 40" LED-TV for 10$. People knew and tried to make a quick buck. Now they are pissed coz MT Gox doesn't let them.

The price was cents just a few months ago. It is totally unreasonable to expect someone who bought these cheap coins to have known that they were stolen. The Bitcoin economy is extremely unstable. Any number of things could have happened.

Any libertarian or anarcho-capitalist who supports a rollback is a hypocrite.

You are thinking about it in the wrong way.

MtGox knowingly allowed stolen bitcoins to be moved from person A to person C.

They are responsible now to return from person C to person A, otherwise they are liable as helping the B person (the thief).

[Shinobi]

Any libertarian or anarcho-capitalist who supports a rollback is a hypocrite.

I think you are right. And that's what makes such "philosophies" idiotic and untenable.

[DATA COMMANDER]

You are thinking about it in the wrong way.

MtGox knowingly allowed stolen bitcoins to be moved from person A to person C.

They are responsible now to reimburse person A out of their own pocket, otherwise they are liable as helping the B person (the thief).

FYP.

[JTaBitCoinKing]

To put it simply they anticipated, to some extent, that this would happen. You don't own the bitcoins until you take them out of MTgox and you don't own the cash until take it out of MTGox. They keep all the Bitcoins and all the cash because they are a 3ed party (like a bank) that is intrusted, by you, agreeing to use their service, to protect your money!

The Bitcoins and cash you play with are only representations of the real Bitcoins and Cash. Really all you have in MTGox is an account that has a bunch of numbers in it. You pay Cash to add Cash numbers in your account and you pay Bitcoins to add Bitcoin numbers to your account. MTGox is responsible for insuring the safety of your account and everyone else. Which really means they're responsible for paying you cash when they say you have cash, and paying you Bitcoins when they say you have Bitcoins. If they couldn't do something like this they wouldn't be doing the job you intrusted them to be able to do: Protect your money!

You did not get the money legitimately, not knowing this dose not make it your money, therefor they issue a rollback. If you don't like that go some place else; it really is that simple.

[DATA COMMANDER]

Any libertarian or anarcho-capitalist who supports a rollback is a hypocrite.

I love this one. Good job.

Those Bitcoins were taken by force. No libertarian or anarcho-capitalist worth a damn would ever suggest that any trade made beyond that initial theft is binding.

Seriously... think before you post.

LOL.

[JTaBitCoinKing]

If the moneys not there, then the money is not there, and it's pretty much game over for MTGox. No one would ever trust them again, and they might not have 10 millions dollars just lying around to fix it. If that's the case we can expect them to file for bankruptcy and you all lose.

However, I think they are only going to rollback the money that was in the major account that got hacked. If you got money out of MTGox on other deals that will probably all still be legitimate.

[EpicFail]

Hmmm ... if I had been playing market maker and during the selloff bought BTC at $5 in my Mt Gox account and sold BTC for $6 in my TradeHill account (hoping to pocket the $1 difference), is Mt Gox also going to roll back my Trade Hill trade? Or am I supposed to just suck in my losses because one leg of my trade happened to be fradulent?

The above situation was hypothetical, at least for my case. I am just pointing out that by rolling back trades there are unintended consequences because people might have placed other trades elsewhere on good faith that their Mt. Gox trades had cleared and will be honored.

[dust]

Mtgox is not reversing bitcoin transactions, they are reversing mtgox transactions, which they have every right to do.  It would have been better if actions mtgox could take in a response to a situation like today were outlined in the mtgox TOS beforehand.

[RomertL]

Any libertarian or anarcho-capitalist who supports a rollback is a hypocrite.

Before talking ideology, would you like to tell us how many btc you bought during this mess and for how much. And how much in $ you will "loose" in the rollback.