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Author Topic: 'Creeping' war vs. bitcoin?  (Read 1025 times)
gregory51gosh
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June 13, 2017, 10:39:36 AM
 #1

Did you notice that derivatives basing on ETH together with ETH may create a centralized role of ETH? This model is called 'creeping' war - step by step dethronement of BTC.

Nothing will be the same. Graham's Law in force:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gresham%27s_law


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June 14, 2017, 08:52:41 PM
Last edit: June 15, 2017, 05:34:24 PM by Monnt
 #2

Nothing impossible. We have been seeing the universe evolve for billions of years to make itself habitable for us, so why not bitcoin be replaced by something superior ? But the biggest question is, how long will it take to evolve and will be be there to witness it at all ?

But in sight, we cannot see anything like that. Some people may argue some altcoins gain power. But I never agree with them.
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June 14, 2017, 08:58:23 PM
 #3

Nothing impossible. We have been seeing the universe evolve for billions of years to make itself habitable for us, so why not bitcoin be replaced by something superior? But the biggest question is, how long will it take to evolve and will be be there to witness it at all ?

So just because Etherium have good price now it will be a candidate to surpass bitcoin? To my own thoughts, a big no.

Is ETH can now be used to buy products? If yes how big is it now? Etherium high price is because of traders want to earn profit and not because of demand to it that will be used to buy products. So meaning ETH is all about money after all and not to used as currency for usages.

Im still new to altcoins. Anyone can correct me here.
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June 14, 2017, 08:59:50 PM
 #4

ETH isn't the money of the future. It's different and heavily promoted right now, but sooner or later people will start taking their profits. The crash will come and then we'll see how deep it goes. ETH is speaking to those who think they missed the bitcoin train and are looking for something cheaper, but don't keep fooling yourself that ETH will become accepted worldwide as the best crypto payment system. There are people who bought it dirt cheap and they will wake up one day and say "time to buy a new house"  Wink
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June 15, 2017, 02:42:51 AM
 #5

Nothing impossible. We have been seeing the universe evolve for billions of years to make itself habitable for us, so why not bitcoin be replaced by something superior? But the biggest question is, how long will it take to evolve and will be be there to witness it at all ?

So just because Etherium have good price now it will be a candidate to surpass bitcoin? To my own thoughts, a big no.

Is ETH can now be used to buy products? If yes how big is it now? Etherium high price is because of traders want to earn profit and not because of demand to it that will be used to buy products. So meaning ETH is all about money after all and not to used as currency for usages.

Im still new to altcoins. Anyone can correct me here.
The high price of Ethereum has to do do mostly with ICOs, many ICOs are being created every month and a significant portion only accept payment in ETH what that means is that people need to get ETH to buy into those ICO, the demand gets higher and then the price follows, it is not really complicated what it is happening but I think it cannot go indefinitely.

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gregory51gosh
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June 16, 2017, 11:15:49 AM
 #6

Yes, it's like whole ETH is one big MLM, while BTC is just a simple vertical structure.

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June 20, 2017, 03:35:47 AM
 #7

Did you notice that derivatives basing on ETH together with ETH may create a centralized role of ETH? This model is called 'creeping' war - step by step dethronement of BTC.

Nothing will be the same. Graham's Law in force:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gresham%27s_law

Interesting points, OP. Good use of applied economics. If there is an attempt being made to dethrone BTC, it may be that a creeping war is only one front. Miner centralization, fork, legislation in the form of senate bill 1241 & other angles could represent other fronts to dethrone or subvert bitcoin.

Arbitrage and business models revolving around it where any outcome results in victory could represent the preferred way of doing business these days with an illusion of choice paradigm signifying victory/defeat in each option placed on the table.

Interesting info on ethereum I haven't seen posted much before.

Quote
Big Business Giants From Microsoft to J.P. Morgan Are Getting Behind Ethereum

Thirty big banks, tech giants, and other organizations—including J.P. Morgan Chase, Microsoft, and Intel—are uniting to build business-ready versions of the software behind Ethereum, a decentralized computing network based on digital currency.
The group, called the Enterprise Ethereum Alliance, is set to debut at a summit in Brooklyn, New York on Tuesday, during which members J.P. Morgan Chase (JPM, +2.14%) and Banco Santander (SAN, +0.91%) are scheduled to demonstrate a pilot of the financial technology as it exists today. The pair plan to show off a "spot trade" on the foreign exchange market for global currencies using an adaptation of Ethereum as the settlement layer.

Ethereum uses a blockchain, often referred to as a distributed ledger, to record and execute transactions without the need of a middleman. Instead of a centrally managed database, copies of the cryptographic balance book are spread across the network and automatically updated as any payment takes place.

Satoshi Nakamoto, the mysterious inventor of Bitcoin, first introduced the concept of a blockchain to the world in a foundational white paper nearly a decade ago. (You can read more about Ethereum, a more flexible and developer-friendly alternative to Bitcoin with its native cryptocurrency, Ether, in this Fortune feature.)

The Ethereum alliance arrives as a challenger to several other extant blockchain ventures. The R3 consortium, for example, counts scores of partnering banks among its members, despite recent high-profile departures by Goldman Sachs, Santander, and Morgan Stanley. It has created "Corda," its own take on a blockchain.

IBM (IBM, -0.50%), meanwhile, has spearheaded another initiative known as the Hyperledger Project, part of the non-profit Linux Foundation. That group maintains the "fabric" blockchain codebase, which as been used in supply chain trials with Wal-Mart (WMT, +0.35%).
Much of the interest to date from traditional financial firms involves "private" blockchains, meaning permission from an authority is required before a party can join the network. The original versions of Bitcoin and Ethereum have public networks that anyone can join. (At press time, the market caps of their cryptocurrencies were approximately $19 billion and $1.4 billion, respectively.)

Alex Batlin, blockchain lead at Bank of New York Mellon, said that while the Ethereum alliance will focus on the development of private blockchains, the hope is that these will one day link up with the public Ethereum blockchain, which is open to all.
"That interconnection of public and private chains actually creates a very strong network," Batlin said on a call with Fortune. "Each chain strengthens the other at an exponential level."

In the view of its proponents, Ethereum's public and private networks will become analogous to intranets versus internets; they will share standard protocols, but have different configurations for privacy and security, depending on each organization's needs.

Members of the Ethereum alliance include Accenture, BBVA, BNY Mellon, BNP Paribas, BP, Cisco, Credit Suisse, ING, Thomson Reuters, and UBS. Also joining is IC3, or the Initiative for Cryptocurrencies and Contracts, an academic group consisting of researchers from universities such as Cornell University, UC Berkeley, and Israel's Technion.

Several representatives from alliance firms cited the energy surrounding Devcon2, Ethereum's fall developer conference in Shanghai, as the focal point that led to their collaboration on this effort. Despite multiple hacks on Ethereum-based applications and a controversial splitting of the Ethereum network, enthusiasm in the network has apparently not diminished.
J.P. Morgan is responsible for developing the basis of the blockchain tech for the alliance. Called "Quorum," the bank's code has been designed to add privacy protections into the mix, among other tweaks.

The partners will help each other develop the foundations for different use cases, such as post-trade settlement, payments between banks, and supply chain tracking, while competing on applications and services built atop the networks. The top priorities for the alliance now include ensuring scalability and security.The other founding members of the alliance are BlockApps, Nuco, AMIS, Andui, CME Group, ConsenSys, Fubon Financial, brainbot technologies, Chronicled, Cryptape, The Institutes, Monax, String Labs, Telindus, Tendermint, VidRoll, and Wipro.

http://fortune.com/2017/02/28/ethereum-jpmorgan-microsoft-alliance/


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June 20, 2017, 08:38:57 AM
 #8

Look at the smaller and smaller cap difference btwn ETH and BTC..

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June 20, 2017, 10:36:13 AM
 #9

Did you notice that derivatives basing on ETH together with ETH may create a centralized role of ETH?
- the derivatives are either forks which are stand alone projects,
- or completely different platform doing the same thing as ethere platform is supposed to do and do it better
- or they are ICO scams that are made using etherum platform

none of these can change anything about ethereum being centralized and nobody has any control over the 77% of the supply which the foundation holds, any say in the future of the platform or any upcoming hard fork it is going to have.

Quote
This model is called 'creeping' war -
i fail to see any relevance!

Quote
step by step dethronement of BTC.
to replace something you need to be in the same category with that thing. and the same way apple can not replace orange, you can't replace bitcoin with ether

Look at the smaller and smaller cap difference btwn ETH and BTC..
yes i am noticing these things:
- 92.6 million current coins of ether VS 16.4 million coins of bitcoin
- 70+ million premine of ether VS 0 of bitcoin
- unlimited aka no cap supply of ether VS 21 million cap of bitcoin
- 25000 ether reward per day VS 1800 BTC reward per day
- 0 merchant adoption of ether VS about 700,000 merchants adopting bitcoin
- 76 GB blockchain size of ether in 2 years VS 142 GB blockchain size of BTC in 8+ years. in 2 more years there won't be anybody left who is holding ether blockchain because it will require multiple HDDs!
- ....

so yeah market cap is very important factor Grin

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June 20, 2017, 11:35:13 AM
 #10

Just my personal view for ETH: I really don't like it, at all, since the begining, it looks pumped right now, but in a very artifical way for my taste.

Market cap is not a good measure for a coin, and you should think in one of the most important things in a cryptocoin: adoption, the coin must be used, and in that case, Bitcoin is years ahead every other altcoin in the market.
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June 20, 2017, 12:53:39 PM
 #11

Did you notice that derivatives basing on ETH together with ETH may create a centralized role of ETH? This model is called 'creeping' war - step by step dethronement of BTC.

Nothing will be the same. Graham's Law in force:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gresham%27s_law




Nah! Eth has always been second to btc though a very far second at that. I think i've heard about this quite a lot of times already even last year and i don't think the basis is justifyable. Eth may even be overtaken by another alt as a second to btc

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June 20, 2017, 04:16:28 PM
Last edit: June 20, 2017, 04:33:56 PM by krishnapramod
 #12

Did you notice that derivatives basing on ETH together with ETH may create a centralized role of ETH? This model is called 'creeping' war - step by step dethronement of BTC.

Nothing will be the same. Graham's Law in force:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gresham%27s_law



Quote
Gresham's law is a monetary principle stating that "bad money drives out good". For example, if there are two forms of commodity money in circulation, which are accepted by law as having similar face value, the more valuable commodity will disappear from circulation.

This law is similar to natural selection. When bad money has a survival advantage over good money it drives out the good money.

I guess BTC is the good money and ETH the bad.

Quote
One practical application of Gresham's Law and perhaps the most important is to avoid becoming part of systems where good behavior cannot win due to the nature of the Law.

And that's what exactly bitcoin is doing, being a decentralized currency, it is staying away from becoming part of a centralized ecosystem and thus avoiding the natural of law, the governments.

So I do not think Gresham's law applies to bitcoin and as far as ETH is concerned, just wait and let a couple of big ICOs scam and then the blame game begins and being a centralized organization it would be logical to put the blame on at least one person.

https://www.farnamstreetblog.com/2009/12/mental-model-greshams-law/
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June 20, 2017, 07:12:15 PM
 #13

Personally, I believe that Bitcoin and Ethereum are good and efficient cyptocurrencies that can exist into the future. There is actually no need to compare as both platforms are different and each have their own users and, of course, fans and community of supporters. I would be happy for their success both.

I have Bitcoin as well as Ether so there is no need to choose one against the other. The whole marketplace is getting bigger everyday so in the future we can see many cryptocurrencies servicing small niches.

I would be happy when these two coins are rising in price.
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June 20, 2017, 08:13:40 PM
 #14

Did you notice that derivatives basing on ETH together with ETH may create a centralized role of ETH?
- the derivatives are either forks which are stand alone projects,
- or completely different platform doing the same thing as ethere platform is supposed to do and do it better
- or they are ICO scams that are made using etherum platform

none of these can change anything about ethereum being centralized and nobody has any control over the 77% of the supply which the foundation holds, any say in the future of the platform or any upcoming hard fork it is going to have.

Quote
This model is called 'creeping' war -
i fail to see any relevance!

Quote
step by step dethronement of BTC.
to replace something you need to be in the same category with that thing. and the same way apple can not replace orange, you can't replace bitcoin with ether

Look at the smaller and smaller cap difference btwn ETH and BTC..
yes i am noticing these things:
- 92.6 million current coins of ether VS 16.4 million coins of bitcoin
- 70+ million premine of ether VS 0 of bitcoin
- unlimited aka no cap supply of ether VS 21 million cap of bitcoin
- 25000 ether reward per day VS 1800 BTC reward per day
- 0 merchant adoption of ether VS about 700,000 merchants adopting bitcoin
- 76 GB blockchain size of ether in 2 years VS 142 GB blockchain size of BTC in 8+ years. in 2 more years there won't be anybody left who is holding ether blockchain because it will require multiple HDDs!
- ....

so yeah market cap is very important factor Grin

I certainly agree that market cap is a "very important factor"

But we still shouldn't forget that Bitcoin is nowhere near being perfect in at least some of the points you enumerated. First, Bitcoin is sort of premined too, and 1 million bitcoins which belong to Satoshi simply cannot be wrong. Second, 142 Gb blockchain of Bitcoin is not good either. If we forget about Ethereum for a moment, any meaningful scaling of Bitcoin is next to impossible, and it is not just about the size of its blockchain as such but rather its future increase (provided Bitcoin doesn't stagnate, of course). And finally, unlimited versus hard capped supply is irrelevant as long as the supply of both coins continues to rise, which is the case for the time being

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June 20, 2017, 08:23:07 PM
 #15

Did you notice that derivatives basing on ETH together with ETH may create a centralized role of ETH? This model is called 'creeping' war - step by step dethronement of BTC.
With the N number of ETH tokens coming out on a daily basis it will not be a big surprise to hear that the volume in all the alt coins will be bigger than bitcoin,it is bound to happen like that and it is really difficult to control now unless there is a regulation in place for running a new ICO.
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June 20, 2017, 10:07:36 PM
 #16

Well who says Bitcoin didn't have a premine? there are 1M coins mined by just the founder but regardless it is better distributed than ETH.

If Antpool and their bosses along with other pools be so stupid to actually fork Bitcoin this could hold it behind of other accelerated in growth

Altcoins for at least 2 years which I guess is more than enough time for ethereum and some other coins to catch up and simply surpass Bitcoin.

But if they were stupid then they would've never entered mining industry in the first place, so no chance mate for ETH to replace BTC.
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June 20, 2017, 10:30:12 PM
 #17

Well who says Bitcoin didn't have a premine? there are 1M coins mined by just the founder but regardless it is better distributed than ETH.
it wasn't de facto a premine, but in the time Satoshi was mining, there wasn't simply anyone to follow him, which gave him a significant headstart.
Apparently, it seems that Satoshi never used any of his 'premined' coins, ever. Unlike Ethereum creators...

If Antpool and their bosses along with other pools be so stupid to actually fork Bitcoin this could hold it behind of other accelerated in growth
Antpool agreed to SegWit2x they won't try to tinker with bitcoin's network anymore. We should have swift and clear scaling upgrade ahead.
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June 21, 2017, 01:08:59 AM
Last edit: June 21, 2017, 05:30:25 AM by hase0278
 #18

Did you notice that derivatives basing on ETH together with ETH may create a centralized role of ETH? This model is called 'creeping' war - step by step dethronement of BTC.

Nothing will be the same. Graham's Law in force:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gresham%27s_law


Don't ever think of ETH winning the creeping war for now, because it's big price is caused probably by many ICO's out there that is happening or has been finished which mainly accepts ETH in their crowdsale. ETH won't win the war unless it has a hidden trump card to compete against bitcoin, which is unlikely because it still cannot be used to pay for services and goods online.
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June 21, 2017, 01:55:53 AM
 #19

So the bad money is ETH and good money BTC? People will use ETH and keep the BTC (most valuable) stored.

While BTC price continues unstable, people will hold it hoping to make more profit on long term, if the same happens with ETH price, people will hold it samehow. But if ETH price becomes stable people will use it more often, keeping their Bitcoins, that is possible...

However most people trust Bitcoin only, if they don't use it, they will use fiat, for me it's the most probable to happen. BTC = Good money / fiat = Bad money.

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June 21, 2017, 02:07:47 AM
 #20

Nothing impossible. We have been seeing the universe evolve for billions of years to make itself habitable for us, so why not bitcoin be replaced by something superior ? But the biggest question is, how long will it take to evolve and will be be there to witness it at all ?

But in sight, we cannot see anything like that. Some people may argue some altcoins gain power. But I never agree with them.

According to you Ethereum seems to be point of universe which was at Big Bang. But the reality is bitcoin already taken place of Big Bang and is evolving much faster than any other crypto cosmos! ETH may stand a chance but the relativity says different thing, bitcoin will always be ahead of them because it stays ahead in the time itself, and catching this fish is not that easy at seems to be. No matter how many investors you bring but bitcoin will have atlas one more investor for sure. Its just speculation and not a reality. We can anyway just guess what might happen.
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June 21, 2017, 06:04:23 AM
 #21

Ethereum is definitely a very big competitor right now against bitcoin. However I really don't think that Ethereum will be able to take over bitcoin any time soon. My reasoning is simple - ethereum wasn't the first cryptocurrency, bitcoin was. Ethereum wasn't the first altcoin, Namecoin once was. Lisk has all the things that Ethereum has, and is based on javascript which is much more widespread than solidity.

Bitcoin on the other hand, is the first cryptocurrency, has the trust of the masses, is not centralized like Ethereum(where Vitalik just hard forks whenever he feel like it), and even though bitcoin has problems with transaction fees and a potential hard fork itself, I think that people that invest in Ethereum sometimes forget about the fact that etherum has its own counterpart blockchain, ethereum classic that is currently the #6 altcoin.

Eth can come close but it won't ever overtake BTC.
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June 21, 2017, 08:34:27 AM
 #22

Hey guys, thank you for all replies.

The main thesis was that ETH becomes centralized and BTC still is decentralized (but pools have ability to manage it, so not as decentralized as everybody thinks). Ti is not about the function of ETH vs. BTC, it something else. I mean, BTC was the main asset in transactions, now single ETH becomes the "carrier". That is why I pointed out that there may be (or not) a problem in the future that if BTC role is minimized, transfers may be under central authority, which is nothing more like a come-back to the financial structure as we now.

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June 21, 2017, 08:20:13 PM
 #23

Did you notice that derivatives basing on ETH together with ETH may create a centralized role of ETH? This model is called 'creeping' war - step by step dethronement of BTC.

Nothing will be the same. Graham's Law in force:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gresham%27s_law
Don't ever think of ETH winning the creeping war for now, because it's big price is caused probably by many ICO's out there that is happening or has been finished which mainly accepts ETH in their crowdsale. ETH won't win the war unless it has a hidden trump card to compete against bitcoin, which is unlikely because it still cannot be used to pay for services and goods online.

Right now a few major exchanges suspended Ethereum withdrawals

There seem to be like 300k unconfirmed transactions in the mempool (or how it is called in Ethereum) with fees skyrocketing. So, ironically, the only thing that Ethereum has likely been able to surpass Bitcoin in is the amount of money it takes to confirm a payment. I don't think this is the trump card you refer to, though it would be interesting to see how this coin is going to cope with these transaction jams if they become a regular thing like they are in Bitcoin nowadays. It kinda looks they should develop their own SegWit and Lightning Network

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June 21, 2017, 08:28:08 PM
 #24

Did you notice that derivatives basing on ETH together with ETH may create a centralized role of ETH? This model is called 'creeping' war - step by step dethronement of BTC.

Nothing will be the same. Graham's Law in force:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gresham%27s_law
Don't ever think of ETH winning the creeping war for now, because it's big price is caused probably by many ICO's out there that is happening or has been finished which mainly accepts ETH in their crowdsale. ETH won't win the war unless it has a hidden trump card to compete against bitcoin, which is unlikely because it still cannot be used to pay for services and goods online.

Right now a few major exchanges suspended Ethereum withdrawals

There seem to be like 300k unconfirmed transactions in the mempool (or how it is called in Ethereum) with fees skyrocketing. So, ironically, the only thing that Ethereum has likely been able to surpass Bitcoin in is the amount of money it takes to confirm a payment. I don't think this is the trump card you refer to, though it would be interesting to see how this coin is going to cope with these transaction jams if they become a regular thing like they are in Bitcoin nowadays. It kinda looks they should develop their own SegWit and Lightning Network

Ethereum definitely needs to scale but the congestion seen since yesterday is a temporary one due to badly made coin offerings leading to mass transations sent in a short amount of time.

Funny thing is ethereum already has a scaling mechanism but it is a very slow one to see results, each time a block is full the miner can increase the block size a little.
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June 21, 2017, 08:48:42 PM
 #25

Did you notice that derivatives basing on ETH together with ETH may create a centralized role of ETH? This model is called 'creeping' war - step by step dethronement of BTC.

Nothing will be the same. Graham's Law in force:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gresham%27s_law
Don't ever think of ETH winning the creeping war for now, because it's big price is caused probably by many ICO's out there that is happening or has been finished which mainly accepts ETH in their crowdsale. ETH won't win the war unless it has a hidden trump card to compete against bitcoin, which is unlikely because it still cannot be used to pay for services and goods online.

Right now a few major exchanges suspended Ethereum withdrawals

There seem to be like 300k unconfirmed transactions in the mempool (or how it is called in Ethereum) with fees skyrocketing. So, ironically, the only thing that Ethereum has likely been able to surpass Bitcoin in is the amount of money it takes to confirm a payment. I don't think this is the trump card you refer to, though it would be interesting to see how this coin is going to cope with these transaction jams if they become a regular thing like they are in Bitcoin nowadays. It kinda looks they should develop their own SegWit and Lightning Network

Ethereum definitely needs to scale but the congestion seen since yesterday is a temporary one due to badly made coin offerings leading to mass transations sent in a short amount of time.

Funny thing is ethereum already has a scaling mechanism but it is a very slow one to see results, each time a block is full the miner can increase the block size a little.

This is a good proof that Ethereum, together with BTC, can't handle any serious amount of transactions, meaning that it's also not suitable to be your everyday currency. ETH can be interesting for its tokens, ICOs and smart-contracts, but it's also quite centralized, and can't compete with Bitcoin in terms of being the best digital storage of value. Even if the Flippening will happen at some point, Bitcoin will still be relevant and will always have its own uses.

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June 21, 2017, 09:04:27 PM
 #26

Not only ETH but any coin with a significant hash power could dethrone bitcoin, lets be honest with ourselves, who is running the show currently in bitcoin? miners, what miners have other than ASICs and full nodes? nothing, therefore if any coin could reach the high levels of BTC in hash power and infrastructure and of course if it has a code as good then all it takes is a few million people and few thousands of big investors, but now they are busy and focused on the first crypto coin and it's hard to imagine something else given it's a decentralized network could potentially compete with BTC in the next 3 years at least.

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June 22, 2017, 07:53:50 AM
 #27

Did you notice that derivatives basing on ETH together with ETH may create a centralized role of ETH? This model is called 'creeping' war - step by step dethronement of BTC.

Nothing will be the same. Graham's Law in force:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gresham%27s_law
Don't ever think of ETH winning the creeping war for now, because it's big price is caused probably by many ICO's out there that is happening or has been finished which mainly accepts ETH in their crowdsale. ETH won't win the war unless it has a hidden trump card to compete against bitcoin, which is unlikely because it still cannot be used to pay for services and goods online.

Right now a few major exchanges suspended Ethereum withdrawals

There seem to be like 300k unconfirmed transactions in the mempool (or how it is called in Ethereum) with fees skyrocketing. So, ironically, the only thing that Ethereum has likely been able to surpass Bitcoin in is the amount of money it takes to confirm a payment. I don't think this is the trump card you refer to, though it would be interesting to see how this coin is going to cope with these transaction jams if they become a regular thing like they are in Bitcoin nowadays. It kinda looks they should develop their own SegWit and Lightning Network

Ethereum definitely needs to scale but the congestion seen since yesterday is a temporary one due to badly made coin offerings leading to mass transations sent in a short amount of time.

Funny thing is ethereum already has a scaling mechanism but it is a very slow one to see results, each time a block is full the miner can increase the block size a little

I'm afraid this is not scaling

This is more like leaving things where they are, though I admit that there can be different opinions on the issue. Other than that, just increasing the block size (with blocks filled to the hilt) would only lead to the blockchain bloating. So while increasing the block size may help alleviate current issues somewhat, in the longer term it might in fact turn counterproductive. In this way, there is little reason to consider such an approach as a genuine scaling solution or mechanism

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