Off-Topic

[LostDutchman]

LostDutchMan, don't kick all the people who got scammed by Amir/TerraHash while they're down. Stop being a smartass unless you can use your "intellect/wisdom" by helping people here.
If not, just get out!
Leave the victims at peace.

Look, I'm not trying to kick anyone and I am sorry that you have interpreted my input in that manner but I am not resposnsible for the interpretations or feelings of others and I'm not "being a "smartass"".

See, the thing is, Terrahash is a dead horse and I see little point in continuing to flog it.

Put in your refund requests, if you can get attorneys to take a case on contingency, do it.

If you have to spend any money to get an attorney to come on board, you're probably sending good money after bad ecause the chances of recovery are slim to none I think and the past performance of Terrahash certainly seems to support that idea.

If some of you want to band together to do a class ation, go ahead if it makes you feel better but I have a hunch most of you would be a lot better off directing your efforts elsewhere.

File you claims, make your refund requests, pound the Hell out of Terrhash with emails and phone calls and maybe, just maybe if your wheel squeaks loud enough, you will get some grease and good luck to you on that one!

Sincerely.

I know what it is like to lose a ton of money, having watched around USD $350K disappear  in real estate transactions a few years back and not a damned thing I could do about it, hence my dislike for owning dirt, as we call real esate in the business.

I sincerely feel for those who have lost money in this matter but as I have repeatedly written, I think there is very little chance of anything like meaningful recovery of funds.

Terrahash has no real assets; not even an owned office, its bank accounts are locked, they are trying to get money back from the Chinese (Good luck on that one!) and are bing pummeled with complaints and legal actions and the net result of these things is going to be a Chapter filing which will result most likely no one getting anything as I suspect there is nothing to be had.  Absent intentional fraud and I don't think a prima faie case could be so established, the pricipals will walk away unscathed, owing nothing.

If anything, I am only trying to soften the blow and prepare those who have lost money for what I see as the inevtiable outcome of this matter.

I wish the best to those who have lost funds and really and sincerely wish that there were effective alternatives to just sucking it up but there you have it.

My $.02.

Funny thing is, you could be looked at by some as commiserating with the enemy.

Some accountants might estimate that TerraHash has stolen 10s of millions of dollars.  You are effectively saying that this person will never see a day in court, and if they do, those who pursue this blatant thief are spending good money after bad.

Let me remind you that YOU DO NOT HAVE A DOG IN THIS FIGHT.

YOU ARE A TROLL and are only interjecting your opinion because you're old and you think you're smarter and more experienced than everyone else.  Perhaps some of that is true... specifically, the old part.  but to believe that someone who has run off with 10s of millions of dollars will never see the inside of a jail, or the inside of a courtroom who is well doxed and whos identity is well known is blasphemy.

Take your two cent speeches elsewhere good sir.  For you are someone who commiserates with the enemy.

My goodness, My Guinness!



How you do go on!

As far as "old"; yeah maybe a bit older than the average member here but I done been to two County Fairs and a Goat Ropin', I've got more court time than a lot of junior attorneys, I have handled any number of Pro Se cases, am responsible hundreds of man-years in prison sentences from my time in law enforcement (91% convction rate! That whole law enforcement thing is another story and not for telling here though!) and maybe, just maybe have a better insight into the legal system than the average person.

I'm not defending Terrahash; I think they had a good idea and it could have worked but due to curcumstances beyond their control, things went to shit.

They have tried to refund but can't.  No money to refund with.  This fact clearly shows taht there was no intent to defraud anyone.

Because Terrahash is a corporation, when they finally get tired of the shit and file, the prinicpals will walk away, Scot free, as it were and end up doing IT for some school district or flipping burgers at the local lunch shack.

I wish it were otherwise and I really do.

You know, reality is reality; reality is often not what people PERCEIVE as reality though and people often live in a dream world when facing a tough situation like this one.

In this matter the reality is that Terrahash is busted; they tried and failed. No fraud; just busted.  Shit happens and there are going to be a lot of people who will never, not now, not ever get their money back.

I wish it were otherwise and I really do.

My $.02.

;(

[1713492889]

1713492889

[LostDutchman]

I sincerely feel for those who have lost money in this matter but as I have repeatedly written, I think there is very little chance of anything like meaningful recovery of funds.

.....

My $.02.

We know.  We read it the first 5 times you said it.  Let it go, man.  I must have a dollar of your 2 cents worth saved up over here already

Well, save it up.

It might earn interest and someday we may want to do business, so don't burn all your bridges, mkay?

Thank you for your input.

[MinermanNC]

Terrahash must be  millionaires by now at 700.00 bux a BTC  "fall in shit and come out smelling like a rose" who wouda thunk... lol

[gbx]

LostDutchMan, don't kick all the people who got scammed by Amir/TerraHash while they're down. Stop being a smartass unless you can use your "intellect/wisdom" by helping people here.
If not, just get out!
Leave the victims at peace.

Look, I'm not trying to kick anyone and I am sorry that you have interpreted my input in that manner but I am not resposnsible for the interpretations or feelings of others and I'm not "being a "smartass"".

See, the thing is, Terrahash is a dead horse and I see little point in continuing to flog it.

Put in your refund requests, if you can get attorneys to take a case on contingency, do it.

If you have to spend any money to get an attorney to come on board, you're probably sending good money after bad ecause the chances of recovery are slim to none I think and the past performance of Terrahash certainly seems to support that idea.

If some of you want to band together to do a class ation, go ahead if it makes you feel better but I have a hunch most of you would be a lot better off directing your efforts elsewhere.

File you claims, make your refund requests, pound the Hell out of Terrhash with emails and phone calls and maybe, just maybe if your wheel squeaks loud enough, you will get some grease and good luck to you on that one!

Sincerely.

I know what it is like to lose a ton of money, having watched around USD $350K disappear  in real estate transactions a few years back and not a damned thing I could do about it, hence my dislike for owning dirt, as we call real esate in the business.

I sincerely feel for those who have lost money in this matter but as I have repeatedly written, I think there is very little chance of anything like meaningful recovery of funds.

Terrahash has no real assets; not even an owned office, its bank accounts are locked, they are trying to get money back from the Chinese (Good luck on that one!) and are bing pummeled with complaints and legal actions and the net result of these things is going to be a Chapter filing which will result most likely no one getting anything as I suspect there is nothing to be had.  Absent intentional fraud and I don't think a prima faie case could be so established, the pricipals will walk away unscathed, owing nothing.

If anything, I am only trying to soften the blow and prepare those who have lost money for what I see as the inevtiable outcome of this matter.

I wish the best to those who have lost funds and really and sincerely wish that there were effective alternatives to just sucking it up but there you have it.

My $.02.

Funny thing is, you could be looked at by some as commiserating with the enemy.

Some accountants might estimate that TerraHash has stolen 10s of millions of dollars.  You are effectively saying that this person will never see a day in court, and if they do, those who pursue this blatant thief are spending good money after bad.

Let me remind you that YOU DO NOT HAVE A DOG IN THIS FIGHT.

YOU ARE A TROLL and are only interjecting your opinion because you're old and you think you're smarter and more experienced than everyone else.  Perhaps some of that is true... specifically, the old part.  but to believe that someone who has run off with 10s of millions of dollars will never see the inside of a jail, or the inside of a courtroom who is well doxed and whos identity is well known is blasphemy.

Take your two cent speeches elsewhere good sir.  For you are someone who commiserates with the enemy.

My goodness, My Guinness!



How you do go on!

As far as "old"; yeah maybe a bit older than the average member here but I done been to two County Fairs and a Goat Ropin', I've got more court time than a lot of junior attorneys, I have handled any number of Pro Se cases, am responsible hundreds of man-years in prison sentences from my time in law enforcement (91% convction rate! That whole law enforcement thing is another story and not for telling here though!) and maybe, just maybe have a better insight into the legal system than the average person.

I'm not defending Terrahash; I think they had a good idea and it could have worked but due to curcumstances beyond their control, things went to shit.

They have tried to refund but can't.  No money to refund with.  This fact clearly shows taht there was no intent to defraud anyone.

Because Terrahash is a corporation, when they finally get tired of the shit and file, the prinicpals will walk away, Scot free, as it were and end up doing IT for some school district or flipping burgers at the local lunch shack.

I wish it were otherwise and I really do.

You know, reality is reality; reality is often not what people PERCEIVE as reality though and people often live in a dream world when facing a tough situation like this one.

In this matter the reality is that Terrahash is busted; they tried and failed. No fraud; just busted.  Shit happens and there are going to be a lot of people who will never, not now, not ever get their money back.

I wish it were otherwise and I really do.

My $.02.

;(

You make some rather far reaching assumptions.  Beyond the fact that you're old, and you have one eye...

No fraud just busted huh.... glad you're such a great objective observer of reality.

I don't think any attorney two years out of law school would have a hard time proving intentions of fraud.  As for the money, how do you exactly know what their balance statement is again???

Hmm... maybe because you DON'T!?

So perhaps instead of spreading your "wisdom" in this thread, you could spread it out and go find a BFL thread to spread it in?  You might have better luck with accuracy there.

[LostDutchman]

You make some rather far reaching assumptions.  Beyond the fact that you're old, and you have one eye...

No fraud just busted huh.... glad you're such a great objective observer of reality.

I don't think any attorney two years out of law school would have a hard time proving intentions of fraud.  As for the money, how do you exactly know what their balance statement is again???

Hmm... maybe because you DON'T!?

So perhaps instead of spreading your "wisdom" in this thread, you could spread it out and go find a BFL thread to spread it in?  You might have better luck with accuracy there.
[/quote]

One eye, eh?

I can at least "keep an eye" on things!



DAMN!

So much for rational and reasonable discussion!

Can we now proceed with more Ad Hominem attacks?

Those are fun if that sort of thing hooks up with your mentality but I will not play.

You know, I am trying to cushion the inevitable blow that is on the way and it is and when it does, it will hit hard.

I think that you know jackshit about "intentions" but you go right ahead and have fun.

No fraud here; in over their heads?

Prolly so but that ain't fraud and anyway, if they were to get prosecuted for fraud, they'd get jail or probation time and since there is no money in the corporation, no one would get anything.

LOL!

BFL is another deal entirely and I feel sorry for those who have been screwed by them as well.

I was fortunate in that my partners finally go their stuff and were able to sell it at a profit to dreamers.

Not my issue, dreamers.

Ya pays yer money and ya takes yer chances.

Terrahash?

It's over.

Deal with it.

You can cut off the head of the messenger but that act will change nothing.

I sincerely wish it were otherwise.

My $.05.  (You got a bit more to add to your account now!)

[hammurabi]

Update 11/9/2013: TerraHash is still in business, we have not filed for bankruptcy yet. The refund from Yifu was cashed immediately back then, we did not make any profits from the recent surge in BTC prices. Again, we are still committed to provide as much refund as possible. I will update again in a couple days on how we are going to proceed with that.

Couple of days time passed away. What is an update status?!
If you were trying to pay back you would start doing so in small batches.
At least from selling the equipment or chip refund or rest of money reserves.

Not a single satoshi was sent to people up to this date.

[niothor]

LostDutchMan, don't kick all the people who got scammed by Amir/TerraHash while they're down. Stop being a smartass unless you can use your "intellect/wisdom" by helping people here.
If not, just get out!
Leave the victims at peace.

Look, I'm not trying to kick anyone and I am sorry that you have interpreted my input in that manner but I am not resposnsible for the interpretations or feelings of others and I'm not "being a "smartass"".

See, the thing is, Terrahash is a dead horse and I see little point in continuing to flog it.

Put in your refund requests, if you can get attorneys to take a case on contingency, do it.

If you have to spend any money to get an attorney to come on board, you're probably sending good money after bad ecause the chances of recovery are slim to none I think and the past performance of Terrahash certainly seems to support that idea.

If some of you want to band together to do a class ation, go ahead if it makes you feel better but I have a hunch most of you would be a lot better off directing your efforts elsewhere.

File you claims, make your refund requests, pound the Hell out of Terrhash with emails and phone calls and maybe, just maybe if your wheel squeaks loud enough, you will get some grease and good luck to you on that one!

Sincerely.

I know what it is like to lose a ton of money, having watched around USD $350K disappear  in real estate transactions a few years back and not a damned thing I could do about it, hence my dislike for owning dirt, as we call real esate in the business.

I sincerely feel for those who have lost money in this matter but as I have repeatedly written, I think there is very little chance of anything like meaningful recovery of funds.

Terrahash has no real assets; not even an owned office, its bank accounts are locked, they are trying to get money back from the Chinese (Good luck on that one!) and are bing pummeled with complaints and legal actions and the net result of these things is going to be a Chapter filing which will result most likely no one getting anything as I suspect there is nothing to be had.  Absent intentional fraud and I don't think a prima faie case could be so established, the pricipals will walk away unscathed, owing nothing.

If anything, I am only trying to soften the blow and prepare those who have lost money for what I see as the inevtiable outcome of this matter.

I wish the best to those who have lost funds and really and sincerely wish that there were effective alternatives to just sucking it up but there you have it.

My $.02.

Funny thing is, you could be looked at by some as commiserating with the enemy.

Some accountants might estimate that TerraHash has stolen 10s of millions of dollars.  You are effectively saying that this person will never see a day in court, and if they do, those who pursue this blatant thief are spending good money after bad.

Let me remind you that YOU DO NOT HAVE A DOG IN THIS FIGHT.

YOU ARE A TROLL and are only interjecting your opinion because you're old and you think you're smarter and more experienced than everyone else.  Perhaps some of that is true... specifically, the old part.  but to believe that someone who has run off with 10s of millions of dollars will never see the inside of a jail, or the inside of a courtroom who is well doxed and whos identity is well known is blasphemy.

Take your two cent speeches elsewhere good sir.  For you are someone who commiserates with the enemy.

That is the big problem, and it's gonna cost you a lot of money to prove it in court.
Unfortunately , LostDutchman is right , he might not put it in the right words a man scammed by terrahash would want to hear but , this is it.

[LostDutchman]

[/quote]

That is the big problem, and it's gonna cost you a lot of money to prove it in court.
Unfortunately , LostDutchman is right , he might not put it in the right words a man scammed by terrahash would want to hear but , this is it.
[/quote]

Thank you for your kind input and your rational and reasonable reply.

I wish I were wrong but I am not.

I have read the writing on the wall, have seen the Light (Or lack of it!)  and can see the darkenss at the end of the tunnel.

I sincerely wish things were otherwise.

When it comes to explaining bad situations, I tend to be down and dirty; I will call a spade a spade; there is no point in guilding lilies but at the same time I am sincerely trying to soften the inevitable blow by making folks awayre that it is coming.

Thank you again for your kind post.

My $.02.

[Tad3j]

It is pointless to say anything in forward as that is only growing fear in people. You are not a god so you cannot know, what may happen. And if they return in one year from now, someone will say, you were not right. So, please, leave it with the assumptions, as they are very relative ...

[massnerder]

I sincerely feel for those who have lost money in this matter but as I have repeatedly written, I think there is very little chance of anything like meaningful recovery of funds.

.....

My $.02.

We know.  We read it the first 5 times you said it.  Let it go, man.  I must have a dollar of your 2 cents worth saved up over here already

Well, save it up.

It might earn interest and someday we may want to do business, so don't burn all your bridges, mkay?

Thank you for your input.

Sorry I wasn't trying to attack or offend, bridges are still safe lol.  I was just pointing out as you yourself say, you are repeating yourself quite a bit, and obviously not helping the situation here regardless of your intention.  Maybe that was a bad analogy on my part. 

See, I actually just have the 2 cents, because you can't keep giving me the same 2 cents over and over again.  If you show up with something to say that is somehow different than what you have been repeating for the last several pages of this thread, then I might have 4 cents one day 

You made your point and you might be right, but there is no reason to continue repeating it.  Repetition won't make your point any more valid, it will just ( as you can already see ) start annoying people, no matter how right it may be.

[gbx]

One eye, eh?

I can at least "keep an eye" on things!



DAMN!

So much for rational and reasonable discussion!

Can we now proceed with more Ad Hominem attacks?

Those are fun if that sort of thing hooks up with your mentality but I will not play.

You know, I am trying to cushion the inevitable blow that is on the way and it is and when it does, it will hit hard.

I think that you know jackshit about "intentions" but you go right ahead and have fun.

No fraud here; in over their heads?

Prolly so but that ain't fraud and anyway, if they were to get prosecuted for fraud, they'd get jail or probation time and since there is no money in the corporation, no one would get anything.

LOL!

My apologies for the ad hominem argument.  Lets switch over to red herring with BFL.

Just kidding.

There are still two assumptions you make.

1.  The corporate veil cannot be pierced.  If you've done a few laps on the track, you'll know that if a corp has no significant assets, a creditor can attempt to prove that the corp is not acting as a separate entity but is the alter ego of its officers.  (paraphrasing investopedia).  It's not uncommon for C corp shareholders to worry about personal liability.  It's not bulletproof.

2.  They have no money (BTC or USD).

And while you've tried to illustrate your rationalization for these assumptions.  They are, in fact, assumptions.  And they could very well be, and likely are, incorrect.

Again, my apologies for poking fun at your eye patch.

[Flying Hellfish]

One eye, eh?

I can at least "keep an eye" on things!



DAMN!

So much for rational and reasonable discussion!

Can we now proceed with more Ad Hominem attacks?

Those are fun if that sort of thing hooks up with your mentality but I will not play.

You know, I am trying to cushion the inevitable blow that is on the way and it is and when it does, it will hit hard.

I think that you know jackshit about "intentions" but you go right ahead and have fun.

No fraud here; in over their heads?

Prolly so but that ain't fraud and anyway, if they were to get prosecuted for fraud, they'd get jail or probation time and since there is no money in the corporation, no one would get anything.

LOL!

My apologies for the ad hominem argument.  Lets switch over to red herring with BFL.

Just kidding.

There are still two assumptions you make.

1.  The corporate veil cannot be pierced.  If you've done a few laps on the track, you'll know that if a corp has no significant assets, a creditor can attempt to prove that the corp is not acting as a separate entity but is the alter ego of its officers.  (paraphrasing investopedia).  It's not uncommon for C corp shareholders to worry about personal liability.  It's not bulletproof.

2.  They have no money (BTC or USD).

And while you've tried to illustrate your rationalization for these assumptions.  They are, in fact, assumptions.  And they could very well be, and likely are, incorrect.

Again, my apologies for poking fun at your eye patch.

Dude most folks around here think the corporate veil is an instant win button for the owners, I can assure you it isn't.  Let me share with you all (once again) one of the most common reasons that the CV is pierced, under capitalization of a start up.  Now for those of you who need a little help let me explain briefly why I believe TH was under cap'd.  When a company enters into a sales agreement with a customer and they take the customers money before they ship a product that money is considered a debt on the companies books ie a liability.  They were spending that debt on products AND services (and overhead, fucking idiots) and they were not getting enough "assets" in return to cover those liabilities.  Now the shit hits the fan and they can no longer deliver any type of product.  A properly funded start-up would have enough "assets" to cover the liabilities and refund the customers (sorry investors you are the bag holders here), an under cap'd start up does not have sufficient assets to cover liabilities, sorry customers you are the bag holders here).

You guys really need to understand the legal implications and risks involved with starting a business and entering into a sales agreement.  Customers  do not take the same risks as investors.  The law has different definitions and protection measures for investors and customers, there is no definition for investomers.  Going after the principals assets here seems like a pretty easy task for a competent lawyer, all it takes is a few burned customers to make it happen.  If the principals have any personal assets or not to go after is an entirely different question all together.  I thought I read somewhere in this thread that Amir sold his house late this summer, I wonder why he did that, expecting the worst perhaps...  If that was the case time is of the essence, he already has the jump on you guys.

After all is said and done if you're a burned TH customer get advice from an actual legal professional, they may be vultures but listening to a bunch of libertarian interwebz lawyers is pretty stupid.

You customers that have been taken for a ride have some power left.  It should be pretty easy to argue all this in a court and TH has ZERO defence.

[LostDutchman]

One eye, eh?

I can at least "keep an eye" on things!



DAMN!

So much for rational and reasonable discussion!

Can we now proceed with more Ad Hominem attacks?

Those are fun if that sort of thing hooks up with your mentality but I will not play.

You know, I am trying to cushion the inevitable blow that is on the way and it is and when it does, it will hit hard.

I think that you know jackshit about "intentions" but you go right ahead and have fun.

No fraud here; in over their heads?

Prolly so but that ain't fraud and anyway, if they were to get prosecuted for fraud, they'd get jail or probation time and since there is no money in the corporation, no one would get anything.

LOL!

My apologies for the ad hominem argument.  Lets switch over to red herring with BFL.

Just kidding.

There are still two assumptions you make.

1.  The corporate veil cannot be pierced.  If you've done a few laps on the track, you'll know that if a corp has no significant assets, a creditor can attempt to prove that the corp is not acting as a separate entity but is the alter ego of its officers.  (paraphrasing investopedia).  It's not uncommon for C corp shareholders to worry about personal liability.  It's not bulletproof.

2.  They have no money (BTC or USD).

And while you've tried to illustrate your rationalization for these assumptions.  They are, in fact, assumptions.  And they could very well be, and likely are, incorrect.

Again, my apologies for poking fun at your eye patch.

No problem on the eye patch thing because you have to have a little fun where you find it!

I also have a missing finger and boy do we have fun with that one sometimes!



As far as my assumptions go, they are indeed assumptions but pretty good ones I think.

(1) Piercing the corporate veil: I just don't see any intent to defraud here; a couple of serious fuckups but no fraud, therefore it is unlikely that personal liability would come into play.  Fucking up isn't fraud.

(2) I think it is pretty clear that if there was any money, more refunds would be forthcoming and they are not.  The probability that both the corporation and the principals are dead broke is pretty good, so however the complaints and lawsuits turn out, I don't think there is going to be anything of significance for creditors and "customers" to latch onto in the event of judgements.

This will play out and we will see.

My $.02.



P.S>:  If it turns out that I am correct in the assumptions, I promise to not say "I told you so!"............

.....Too many times, anyway!

[Flying Hellfish]

(1) Piercing the corporate veil: I just don't see any intent to defraud here; a couple of serious fuckups but no fraud, therefore it is unlikely that personal liability would come into play.  Fucking up isn't fraud.

Honestly man, you don't understand the corporate veil as well as you think you do.  A corporation can not collect money from customers to fund the start up then blow it all and leave the customers holding the bag.  That in itself whether fraud or not directly, is enough to pierce the veil easily.  There is a reason why no sane business in the real world use's customer PRE-ORDER money to fund the start up and the reason is because it opens up instantly and easily a way to pierce the veil.

[LostDutchman]

(1) Piercing the corporate veil: I just don't see any intent to defraud here; a couple of serious fuckups but no fraud, therefore it is unlikely that personal liability would come into play.  Fucking up isn't fraud.

Honestly man, you don't understand the corporate veil as well as you think you do.  A corporation can not collect money from customers to fund the start up then blow it all and leave the customers holding the bag.  That in itself whether fraud or not directly, is enough to pierce the veil easily.  There is a reason why no sane business in the real world use's customer PRE-ORDER money to fund the start up and the reason is because it opens up instantly and easily a way to pierce the veil.

A very cogent and well-written argument and I understand the veil perhaps better than you think but it still all comes down to whether or not there is any money to be had.

I don't think there is but I have a feeling we all will soon find out.

Thank you for your input!

My $.02.

[LostDutchman]

I would remind you that by its own admission, Cloudhashing funded Terrahash.

Wondering if CH got refunds, mmmmmm?

And the plot thickens.

My $.02.



http://bflfraud.com/

6/27/2013 6:09:51 AM] Me: Wow!
[6/27/2013 6:10:00 AM] Me: Who else have you ordered from?
[6/27/2013 6:10:10 AM] Benny: KNCminer and around $80k with Terrahash

"[6/27/2013 6:10:18 AM] Benny: we basically funded Terrahash to run their business
[6/27/2013 6:10:25 AM] Me: I see
[6/27/2013 6:10:26 AM] Benny: they used our money to buy their chips
[6/27/2013 6:10:42 AM] Me: I see
[6/27/2013 6:10:48 AM] Me: Any free samples?
[6/27/2013 6:10:50 AM] Me: LOL!
[6/27/2013 6:10:55 AM] Benny: We did
[6/27/2013 6:10:58 AM] Benny: We had free contracts on our site"

[gbx]

One eye, eh?

I can at least "keep an eye" on things!



DAMN!

So much for rational and reasonable discussion!

Can we now proceed with more Ad Hominem attacks?

Those are fun if that sort of thing hooks up with your mentality but I will not play.

You know, I am trying to cushion the inevitable blow that is on the way and it is and when it does, it will hit hard.

I think that you know jackshit about "intentions" but you go right ahead and have fun.

No fraud here; in over their heads?

Prolly so but that ain't fraud and anyway, if they were to get prosecuted for fraud, they'd get jail or probation time and since there is no money in the corporation, no one would get anything.

LOL!

My apologies for the ad hominem argument.  Lets switch over to red herring with BFL.

Just kidding.

There are still two assumptions you make.

1.  The corporate veil cannot be pierced.  If you've done a few laps on the track, you'll know that if a corp has no significant assets, a creditor can attempt to prove that the corp is not acting as a separate entity but is the alter ego of its officers.  (paraphrasing investopedia).  It's not uncommon for C corp shareholders to worry about personal liability.  It's not bulletproof.

2.  They have no money (BTC or USD).

And while you've tried to illustrate your rationalization for these assumptions.  They are, in fact, assumptions.  And they could very well be, and likely are, incorrect.

Again, my apologies for poking fun at your eye patch.

No problem on the eye patch thing because you have to have a little fun where you find it!

I also have a missing finger and boy do we have fun with that one sometimes!



As far as my assumptions go, they are indeed assumptions but pretty good ones I think.

(1) Piercing the corporate veil: I just don't see any intent to defraud here; a couple of serious fuckups but no fraud, therefore it is unlikely that personal liability would come into play.  Fucking up isn't fraud.

(2) I think it is pretty clear that if there was any money, more refunds would be forthcoming and they are not.  The probability that both the corporation and the principals are dead broke is pretty good, so however the complaints and lawsuits turn out, I don't think there is going to be anything of significance for creditors and "customers" to latch onto in the event of judgements.

This will play out and we will see.

My $.02.



P.S>:  If it turns out that I am correct in the assumptions, I promise to not say "I told you so!"............

.....Too many times, anyway!

As for the "I told you so" statement.  Be my guest... I'll be the first to admit that I'm wrong when I am.  However, I've not laid any claims other than claims that what you say are assumptions and have no facts behind them.

Incorrect and inaccurate assumptions are the root cause of most bad things.  We humans tend to shortcut things in our minds based on past experiences.  Once you see how fallible you are in that regard, you'll want to substantiate your hunch before jumping to conclusions.  After all, someone in this thread is bound to be right about the situation.  Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while

However, you just keep going on and on about your hunches, and how you don't see fraud here.  If things turn out the way you predict them to be, it looks every bit like fraud from end to end.  You don't think that renting an office and buying some resistors and caps makes it look like good intentions do you?  Heck, I was neighbors with someone who bilked millions of dollars out of people, drained hard working teachers of their retirement accounts.  He had an office.  He even sent out earnings statements.  Search "Prime Bank Note Fraud".  Heck, this guy even said "god bless" to most folks at the end of their conversation.

In the end, I don't think courts will look favorably on this fellow.  He didn't produce or ship a single widget.  Just took in large sums of cash and cash equivalents and bailed.  He created a nice atmosphere to encourage trust (renting an office, allowing folks to stop by and see the mouser deliveries, etc).  Like any white collar criminal,  they put some pride into their crime.

Whoever is right in this situation is not important.  What is important are that folks who put money into this con are 100 percent restored.

[LostDutchman]

[/quote]

As for the "I told you so" statement.  Be my guest... I'll be the first to admit that I'm wrong when I am.  However, I've not laid any claims other than claims that what you say are assumptions and have no facts behind them.

Incorrect and inaccurate assumptions are the root cause of most bad things.  We humans tend to shortcut things in our minds based on past experiences.  Once you see how fallible you are in that regard, you'll want to substantiate your hunch before jumping to conclusions.  After all, someone in this thread is bound to be right about the situation.  Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while

However, you just keep going on and on about your hunches, and how you don't see fraud here.  If things turn out the way you predict them to be, it looks every bit like fraud from end to end.  You don't think that renting an office and buying some resistors and caps makes it look like good intentions do you?  Heck, I was neighbors with someone who bilked millions of dollars out of people, drained hard working teachers of their retirement accounts.  He had an office.  He even sent out earnings statements.  Search "Prime Bank Note Fraud".  Heck, this guy even said "god bless" to most folks at the end of their conversation.

In the end, I don't think courts will look favorably on this fellow.  He didn't produce or ship a single widget.  Just took in large sums of cash and cash equivalents and bailed.  He created a nice atmosphere to encourage trust (renting an office, allowing folks to stop by and see the mouser deliveries, etc).  Like any white collar criminal,  they put some pride into their crime.

Whoever is right in this situation is not important.  What is important are that folks who put money into this con are 100 percent restored.

[/quote]

If the money is gone it makes no difference and you can get all the judgements you want but if they are not enforceable you end up with a thing called a Pyrrhic victory and the creditors are running around like puppies chasing their tails.

Terrahash had a good idea, it didn't work out and both Terrahash and its customers got it up the Strada Chocolata.

Unless I am incorrect, Terrahash is still waiting on a refund from Dr. Fu Manchu; I mean Yifu.



I wonder if Benny and Cloudhashing got refunds?

Anyone ask yet?

My $.02.

[gbx]

If the money is gone it makes no difference and you can get all the judgements you want but if they are not enforceable you end up with a thing called a Pyrrhic victory and the creditors are running around like puppies chasing their tails.

Terrahash had a good idea, it didn't work out and both Terrahash and its customers got it up the Strada Chocolata.

Unless I am incorrect, Terrahash is still waiting on a refund from Dr. Fu Manchu; I mean Yifu.



I wonder if Benny and Cloudhashing got refunds?

Anyone ask yet?

My $.02.

If the money is gone, it is just not in plain sight.  And further points to fraud because how could the money be gone if he didn't produce anything?

Terrahash already received refund from Yifu.

Cloudhashing has not been refunded yet, AFAIK.

And Amir, with this pyrrhic victory, will have trouble seeking gainful employment.  Unless hiring a felon and/or a well documented thief is your thing.  Good thing he'll have all that BTC to pad his life eh?  Remember... Google cache is not your friend.

Nice racist touch to your last post.  You done repeating yourself yet? I am!

[niothor]

If the money is gone it makes no difference and you can get all the judgements you want but if they are not enforceable you end up with a thing called a Pyrrhic victory and the creditors are running around like puppies chasing their tails.

Terrahash had a good idea, it didn't work out and both Terrahash and its customers got it up the Strada Chocolata.

Unless I am incorrect, Terrahash is still waiting on a refund from Dr. Fu Manchu; I mean Yifu.



I wonder if Benny and Cloudhashing got refunds?

Anyone ask yet?

My $.02.

If the money is gone, it is just not in plain sight.  And further points to fraud because how could the money be gone if he didn't produce anything?

Terrahash already received refund from Yifu.

Cloudhashing has not been refunded yet, AFAIK.

And Amir, with this pyrrhic victory, will have trouble seeking gainful employment.  Unless hiring a felon and/or a well documented thief is your thing.  Good thing he'll have all that BTC to pad his life eh?  Remember... Google cache is not your friend.

Nice racist touch to your last post.  You done repeating yourself yet? I am!

Well , I can start a few business and drive them to bankruptcy without ever making a final product , even to a point that it makes it sound legal.
A few slightly overpriced costs , a few extra workers (friends) with high wages, throw in a few "accidents" that delayed production and damaged the facility and there you have it.