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Author Topic: why does mt gox care about one user  (Read 4593 times)
DamienBlack
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June 20, 2011, 06:51:48 AM
 #21

when a hacker steals my 20 bitcoins I want the entire market frozen and every order to be reversed until I am satisfied

If it is only 20, then I'm sure they will just cover the loss themselves.

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June 20, 2011, 06:56:49 AM
 #22

A possibly legal (or illegal) response?
You (we) are dealing with an unregulated exchange, and most of the members know about that status, so talking about a legal response is a bit odd, IMO.
MtGox can do whatever they want, and their customers can ether stay (like I am) or leave.

no matter how many times people repeat that, it's just untrue. mt. gox might wish to exist in an unregulated anarchist utopia, but it's subject at least to the laws of japan and very likely to other laws that apply under treaty obligations....

I do agree with you in the sense that MtGox has recently posted about their efforts to become fully legal in many countries.

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June 20, 2011, 06:58:07 AM
 #23

when a hacker steals my 20 bitcoins I want the entire market frozen and every order to be reversed until I am satisfied

You're the OP, are you now trolling your own thread?  Cheesy

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June 20, 2011, 07:11:54 AM
 #24

In previous hackings (all minor), Mt. Gox has refused to cover the losses of its users.
These losses have been small and no one would pursue legal actions over them. In this instance, Mt. Gox appears to be covering the loss of its user.
It seems very sketchy for Mt. Gox to make variable ex-post decisions about its contractual terms with users.

As Unk points out, cases where there are no explicit contracts are assumed to have implicit contracts which follow standard business practice.

Definitely would suggest consulting a lawyer if you suffered substantial financial losses in the 'rollback'.

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June 20, 2011, 07:53:17 AM
 #25

I think its only fair to make amends for the fraudulent activity.

Sure some people are pissed that they cant get their cheap bitcoins, but those sell orders werent legitimate.

"... He is no fool who parts with that which he cannot keep, when he is sure to be recompensed with that which he cannot lose ..."

"... history disseminated to the masses is written by those who win battles and wars and murder their heroes ..."


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June 20, 2011, 07:54:59 AM
 #26

-removed-

"... He is no fool who parts with that which he cannot keep, when he is sure to be recompensed with that which he cannot lose ..."

"... history disseminated to the masses is written by those who win battles and wars and murder their heroes ..."


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DamienBlack
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June 20, 2011, 07:57:26 AM
 #27


Definitely would suggest consulting a lawyer if you suffered substantial financial losses in the 'rollback'.


You mean you lost your "on paper" value of thousands of bitcoins that you bought for $0.10? No one is going to have any less money then they had earlier that day. Unless you are counting the gains of stolen btc from a greedy hacker.

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unk
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June 20, 2011, 08:27:39 AM
 #28

You mean you lost your "on paper" value of thousands of bitcoins that you bought for $0.10? No one is going to have any less money then they had earlier that day. Unless you are counting the gains of stolen btc from a greedy hacker.

but just to be clear, the gains weren't from a greedy hacker. they were from completing a trade on an exchange where the counterparty happened to be a greedy hacker. if i make money selling fruit at a fruitstand for cash, the fact that the cash is stolen doesn't matter in any modern legal system that i'm aware of. again, that's true even in the united states, which adopts the relatively unusual legal rule that stolen goods can be returned to their prior owners even after an innocent purchase.

that said, i may in the zeal of argument have overstated my point. i don't mean to be accusing mt. gox of 'theft', and i wouldn't want what i said before to be construed that way. i'm really just calling for transparency and accountability, and my point is that mt. gox does not seem to have justified the propriety of a 'rollback' given the information that it has released so far.

if we're just toying around (which, to be fair, is the approach i, more than almost anyone else, take toward the currently prominent block chain, having mined more than ten thousand coins cheaply early on and not having the desire or comfort to sell them yet - or perhaps ever), that's fine, and we can treat whatever mt. gox does today or tomorrow as a mere experiment. but if mt. gox intends to be treated as a prominent, serious currency exchanger providing honest customer service, it should at least consider holding the trade proceeds from yesterday in escrow while turning over the matter to arbitration or at least a third-party financial audit. instead, it has apparently decided to summarily announce a course of action that it intends to take on its own, even while admitting that it won't make certain customers (who may have legitimate complaints) happy.

to put that differently, if i were a serious bitcoin speculator or investor rather than (with respect to bitcoin) a technologist focused on the protocol and the systems issues, i would probably insist that my currency exchange acted more seriously than mt. gox is apparently, from its announcements, intending to act. its disposition in this matter is questionable. its first statement was a heavy-handed one that almost sounded as if it was trying to manipulate the price ('The bitcoin will be back to around 17.5$/BTC after we rollback all trades'). its later statements amount to announcements of its intent without an attempt at justification, ethical considerations, or propriety.

it may be easy for some to dismiss the claims of people who 'made a quick buck' by putting on fortunate trades yesterday. but the point of the argument i'm making is that it is not that easy. the argument may not be persuasive, but at the very least people should think 'yes, he has a point' - and if so, that means that mt. gox's unilaterally announced course of action, canceling a large number of trades, is probably hasty.

i mean this as constructive criticism. i have nothing against mt. gox, even though as i've pointed out many times over the last several months, they have not earned my own personal trust.
DamienBlack
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June 20, 2011, 08:33:46 AM
 #29

For everyone that got a good deal, someone got a bad deal. I see know reason for mt gox to muck around figuring out who need compensation. Most of the trades were not authorized by the owner of the account, just as if a glitch had happened. Roll it back.

Glitches were happening because the network was so swamped with the unusual activity. It simply must be rolled back.

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June 20, 2011, 09:36:44 AM
 #30

Judging from the prize movement  24 hrs until the flash dump, very little happened. Whats up with all these claims of lost profits ?
Can YOU prove, you are not an accomplice ?

Your welcome to express your megagreed after the rollback  Cheesy


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June 20, 2011, 10:50:02 AM
 #31

Dealing in stolen property is frowned upon in most civilized countries. The 500,000 bitcoins were stolen property that the hacker was selling on the cheap, and you want to get mad because the exchange can (and is) nullifying those trades? I imagine if someone stole all your stuff then immediately sold it that you wouldn't want the cops to recover it because of all the innocent people the bought your stuff for pennies on the dollar. Can't interfere with those trades.

So, how many $.01 bitcoins did you get?
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June 20, 2011, 05:23:50 PM
 #32

I can prove I'm not an accomplice solely due to the fact that I am a financial wizard

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June 20, 2011, 05:44:28 PM
 #33

You show me a contract you signed saying MtGox can't cancel trades and you might have a point. Otherwise you're building a castle out of air. There are clearly no implied terms saying they cannot - for those terms to be implied there would have to be wide agreement that fraud cancellation cannot happen. And as this thread indicates, there is very little agreement on that.

Edit: I also believe that buyers of stolen goods normally find themselves deprived of the stolen goods by the law. Sometimes the buyers themselves are even convicted of a crime. "In many countries, if an individual has accepted possession of goods or property and knew they were stolen, then it is usually prosecuted as a misdemeanor or felony, depending on value of stolen goods. If the individual didn't know the goods were stolen, then the goods are returned to the owner and the individual is not prosecuted." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Possession_of_stolen_goods

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June 20, 2011, 05:57:48 PM
 #34

If you, say, held a gun to someone's head so that they sold you their house for $10, you wouldn't be a financial wizard.

If someone else held a gun to someone's head so that they sold you their house for $10, you wouldn't be a financial wizard.

If someone broke into the bank, stole the deeds to someone's house and sold them to you for $10, you wouldn't be a financial wizard.

It's heartbreaking to see that your silly opportunistic bid of $10 for 1000 bitcoins that you left on Mt.Gox just as a bit of a joke that maybe, maybe one day someone might go mad and want to give away a load of cash, turn out not to be the lottery win you thought it was... BUT YOU WERE BUYING STOLEN GOODS.  Get over it.

Seriously, does anyone think they have an actual moral case for having bought these stolen coins?  Trades should be voluntary on both sides, these weren't.  You thought you were going to be instantly rich and it turns out you're not.  It's sad for you, but it's hardly unfair.

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June 20, 2011, 06:12:11 PM
 #35

> In previous hackings (all minor), Mt. Gox has refused to cover the losses of its users.

This isn't true. He has covered everyone that had a loss due to an exploit in the site.

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June 20, 2011, 08:13:27 PM
 #36

I wasn't  buying stolen goods. I bought goods that the market gave me for the price I hand picked.

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June 20, 2011, 08:23:57 PM
 #37

According to the reference I linked to, what you thought you bought has no impact on whether the stolen goods will be confiscated or not (in the jurisdictions covered by the article). The fact that you didn't know means you're not on the hook personally for possession of stolen goods, but it does not mean you get to keep them.

I'd say that, although it will feel unfortunate for some - I had a lowball 'in case it crashes' bid open myself - there is neither moral nor legal standing for keeping the property.

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June 20, 2011, 08:29:22 PM
 #38

Maybe bitbot should go to some other forum to be relevant, because 'his' logic here sure isn't.

If you could possibly think over the dull roar your empty skull contains, you'd realize out in the 'big world' exchanges bust trades that are erroneous all the time. Don't be all maudlin over it, just understand that is how it works.

Or just keep posting rants like a toothless beggar, up to you.

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June 20, 2011, 08:33:46 PM
 #39

I wasn't  buying stolen goods. I bought goods that the market gave me for the price I hand picked.

Yes; and I bought a Bluray player out of the back of some guy's car that he was offering at a price that I hand picked as acceptable to me.

I'm afraid your willingness to transact doesn't imply the willingness of the other party.  Your repetition that you are pleased with the deal does not change the nature of what you were buying: stolen goods.

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June 20, 2011, 08:45:21 PM
 #40

I wasn't  buying stolen goods. I bought goods that the market gave me for the price I hand picked.

that woudln't protect you if you bought a stolen car stereo/tv/whatever else

whether or not you knew the coins were stolen is irrelevant.
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