Seed preservation

[john_doe]

I was wondering how you guys back up your seed. I'm not comfortable with having the full seed lying around somewhere.

[1714037305]

1714037305

[1714037305]

1714037305

[1714037305]

1714037305

[kolloh]

I was wondering how you guys back up your seed. I'm not comfortable with having the full seed lying around somewhere.

So far, I've just been backing it up on a piece of paper, but that also makes me a bit uncomfortable.

You could back it up onto a few USB drives in an encrypted container perhaps as an alternative. You'd want to use more than one to avoid the chance of hardware failure, etc.

[john_doe]

You could back it up onto a few USB drives in an encrypted container perhaps as an alternative.

The problem with encrypted containers is that you can always forget or lose the encryption key(s).

[Reid]

You could back it up onto a few USB drives in an encrypted container perhaps as an alternative.

The problem with encrypted containers is that you can always forget or lose the encryption key(s).

Piece of paper for me.
The safest of all things that have been created. 
If you put it in the internet it is not safe. You input it in a USB still not safe even if encrypted one.
I just got two copies that have been written in a paper. One is in my storage of important things and one is being held by my wife which I dont know where she keep it.

[Coin-Keeper]

You could back it up onto a few USB drives in an encrypted container perhaps as an alternative.

The problem with encrypted containers is that you can always forget or lose the encryption key(s).

Piece of paper for me.
The safest of all things that have been created.  
If you put it in the internet it is not safe. You input it in a USB still not safe even if encrypted one.
I just got two copies that have been written in a paper. One is in my storage of important things and one is being held by my wife which I dont know where she keep it.

+1 paper

I am of the opinion that SEED should never be on ANY computer ever, unless I need to do a recovery from total loss [I am not disrespecting the Electrum two computer cold wallet approach but even that falls short of hardware wallet security].  I use hardware wallets but they still use a SEED for recovery.  A functioning hardware wallet never shows the SEED to any computer.  The exact day that I ever place a single SEED on a computer I would immediately create a new wallet and move all coins to it.  SEED is for recovery only.  If I write my SEED on paper then it never sees a computer.  If you can't secure a piece of paper with a few words on it, you need to possibly reconsider this hobby.  Seriously, as BTC is now worth several thousand per coin, one mistake on this and you can lose it all.  BTC hackers are freakin writing some awesome code and it takes a computer to hold code.  My .02


edit:  OP I re-read my post and I don't mean for the tone to sound "in your face".  I do computer security and I don't care where you store your digital files (usb, hard drives, etc...) they can be approached by great malware.  Malware can't get to seed that it can't see on paper!

[HCP]

... I use hardware wallets but they still use a SEED for recovery.  A functioning hardware wallet never shows the SEED to any computer.

If the seed is never "shown" to any computer, how do you get the seed in the first place? The hardware wallet has to be connected to the computer... and the seed has to be displayed/output on the computer so you can write it down doesn't it?

At which time, malware that takes stealth screenshots or does desktop video recording could capture your seed right?

[john_doe]

If you put it in the internet it is not safe. You input it in a USB still not safe even if encrypted one.

I think the key point is to make sure the seed is (and has always been) offline (e.g. piece of paper, offline drive, ...)
Why do you think an offline USB drive is not safe?

I just got two copies that have been written in a paper. One is in my storage of important things and one is being held by my wife which I dont know where she keep it.

If the seed is in plain text I wouldn't be very comfortable with that setup...

The hardware wallet has to be connected to the computer... and the seed has to be displayed/output on the computer so you can write it down doesn't it?

The hardware wallet could have a display that shows you the seed.

If you can't secure a piece of paper with a few words on it, you need to possibly reconsider this hobby.

Can you elaborate on this?

[kolloh]

If you can't secure a piece of paper with a few words on it, you need to possibly reconsider this hobby.

Can you elaborate on this?

The threat with a seed written on a piece of paper is the physical threat of someone else discovering the piece of paper. You could store it in a safe to prevent most people from stumbling across it. However, if someone breaks into your house and steals your safe, they could likely open it and discover your seed which is in plaintext.

[pooya87]

- print it on a piece of paper.
- put it in a document or among other documents
- label it "urine test results"
- place it among your medical documents.

you can also google how said document should look like and print the seed inside of the real test result sheet!

[Coin-Keeper]

... I use hardware wallets but they still use a SEED for recovery.  A functioning hardware wallet never shows the SEED to any computer.

If the seed is never "shown" to any computer, how do you get the seed in the first place? The hardware wallet has to be connected to the computer... and the seed has to be displayed/output on the computer so you can write it down doesn't it?

At which time, malware that takes stealth screenshots or does desktop video recording could capture your seed right?

HCP -sorry I have been away for a day or so.

NO a Trezor does NOT ever show the recovery SEED to a computer at any time.  I initialize my Trezor(s) offline and it goes like this (same for online but I do it offline):

During creation of the SEED list, which is 24 words on a Trezor, the hardware wallet screen displays the SEED words one at a time.  You write the words down and proceed to the next word, etc.... until you have the 24 words on a paper list.  Then the Trezor allows you to go through the list one more time double checking you have them all correctly written down.  These crucial 24 words allow for complete and easy recovery if the hardware wallet is lost, broken, etc....  Mainly, to your point, no the computer does NOT see any SEED ever.  This is what makes such a hardware wallet "bullet proof" to malware.  When you send coins the same protection isolates the private keys needed to transact from the computer in use.

[HCP]

Ahhh OK... so that is specific to the Trezor (and possibly other hardware wallets with screens)... I know the latest Ledger Nano S has a screen, but I'm not sure if it uses the same method for seed generation. The earlier Ledger Nano had no screen.

I guess that is definitely something to consider when looking at purchasing a hardware wallet!

[kolloh]

The best place to hide is always in plain sight!

Write a poem using the seed words and put the seed words in bold, or underlined.  Fold the piece of paper in two and insert it in your favorite book in your library.  Repeat the process and store the poem in different places in the house, or store the poem on a relative's computer (house fire).

Yeah, that's not a pretty cool idea. It obscures it a little bit so that people don't know what it might be.

[bL4nkcode]

I just convert it to QR code using some open source QR code generator and of course,  I've run it offline and save it as a PDF file then encrypt it with a strong password, then upload it on some trusted app online, I will not store it on a paper since there are possibilities that this paper will lose including some important files when something happens like a typhoon or some disaster (just in case) since I'm living here in a tropical region/country so I just uploaded it online and I feel it's safe there.

[Muhammed Zakir]

I just convert it to QR code using some open source QR code generator and of course,  I've run it offline and save it as a PDF file then encrypt it with a strong password, then upload it on some trusted app online, I will not store it on a paper since there are possibilities that this paper will lose including some important files when something happens like a typhoon or some disaster (just in case) since I'm living here in a tropical region/country so I just uploaded it online and I feel it's safe there.

You should upload to different servers so your backup won't be lost in case one is down and a few paper backups, in case all servers are gone (unlikely) or if you forgot your password. IMO, an encrypted backup is good, but you should use a password which you won't forget and not some "hard-to-crack password which is hard to remember. Forgetting your password is the last thing you want to happen when backing up an important file.

[adaseb]

Just memorize it, shouldn't be too hard with 12 words.

Repeat it everyday.

[Muhammed Zakir]

Just memorize it, shouldn't be too hard with 12 words.

Repeat it everyday.

http://www.memory-improvement-tips.com/best-memory-trick.html

[kolloh]

Just memorize it, shouldn't be too hard with 12 words.

Repeat it everyday.

http://www.memory-improvement-tips.com/best-memory-trick.html

That's a sure fire way to lose your seed lol. Ideally you won't be using the seed unless something bad happens so trying to repeat it everyday is a lot of wasted effort, plus you are bound to eventually forget about it and that's when you'll need the seed.

[BitcoinNewsMagazine]

Trezor and Nano S use 24 word seeds. When it comes to storing your seed, you should follow the advice of the companies who make the hardware wallets. Never store online, paper backup only, store in safe or bank deposit box if possible. Get cute about storing your seed in an encrypted container online and you just might lose your bitcoin. Adding a passphrase is extra security if you are sure you can keep it in your head. The more bitcoin you own the more important it is to follow the advice of the wallet manufacturer: they know security better than you do.

[Muhammed Zakir]

Just memorize it, shouldn't be too hard with 12 words.

Repeat it everyday.

http://www.memory-improvement-tips.com/best-memory-trick.html

That's a sure fire way to lose your seed lol. Ideally you won't be using the seed unless something bad happens so trying to repeat it everyday is a lot of wasted effort, plus you are bound to eventually forget about it and that's when you'll need the seed.

Nah, be "Sherlock Holmes"! 



off topic :wink: :grin:

[john_doe]

I just convert it to QR code using some open source QR code generator and of course,  I've run it offline and save it as a PDF file then encrypt it with a strong password, then upload it on some trusted app online, I will not store it on a paper since there are possibilities that this paper will lose including some important files when something happens like a typhoon or some disaster (just in case) since I'm living here in a tropical region/country so I just uploaded it online and I feel it's safe there.

It's not cold storage if it's online