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Author Topic: 500K BTC amounts to what % of total mass of existing BTCs??  (Read 3351 times)
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June 20, 2011, 05:13:27 PM
 #21

Thanks for proving that you are speaking out of your ass.

Bill Gates Net Worth: $56 Billion: 2011
Total global wealth: USD 195 trillion (*)
(*) https://www.credit-suisse.com/news/en/media_release.jsp?ns=41610

That is several orders of magnitude away from 8%.

8% of the "global wealth" in a single wallet (at least for a single currency) is quite common in the real world.  Ask Warren Buffet, or Bill Gates.

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June 20, 2011, 05:34:53 PM
 #22

Yes, the bitcoin system is probably a worse oligarchy than any real world oligarchy, because ~1% of users have ~90% of the bitcoins in their hands, but that's the kind of situation you get with free market capitalism.
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June 20, 2011, 05:59:37 PM
 #23

Thanks for proving that you are speaking out of your ass.

Bill Gates Net Worth: $56 Billion: 2011
Total global wealth: USD 195 trillion (*)
(*) https://www.credit-suisse.com/news/en/media_release.jsp?ns=41610

That is several orders of magnitude away from 8%.

8% of the "global wealth" in a single wallet (at least for a single currency) is quite common in the real world.  Ask Warren Buffet, or Bill Gates.

A Troll says, "What!?!?"

"Global Wealth" as defined by the amount of currency one owns / or can have personally. 
There is approximately $853 Billion in US Cash in circulation (http://www.visualeconomics.com/the-value-of-united-states-currency-in-circulation/)

8% of $853B is $68M.

Bill Gates is worth $56 Billion.

Ask yourself, could Bill Gates get $68M in cash?  Of course he could.  Using an analogy of "wealth" when discussing Bitcoins is silly.  The OP was commenting on 500K Bitcoins being in one wallet. 

Let's not mix our analogies.

umad?

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June 20, 2011, 06:00:57 PM
 #24

I am still looking for how can this be a scam or a PONZI SCHEME  Roll Eyes

So, who opened the trolls cages?
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June 20, 2011, 06:04:57 PM
 #25

8% of $853B is $68M.

$68B not $68M.  And no, Bill Gates couldn't get hold of $68 billion in cash.

Bill Gates worth is primarily in the form of stock and other assets.

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June 20, 2011, 06:07:27 PM
 #26

Capitalism of the ponzi kind, where insiders "early adopters" of "moneis" pulled out of their asses backed by nothing  apart from the processor cycles of others who pay the bill get 90%+ of the dough free just for fooling suckers wannabe speculators attracted by the price inflation caused just by the tulip-mania.

I am going back to the real world capitalism as soon as I will be able to to unload my BTC to fools greater than me at the price that I paid, thanks

Yes, the bitcoin system is probably a worse oligarchy than any real world oligarchy, because ~1% of users have ~90% of the bitcoins in their hands, but that's the kind of situation you get with free market capitalism.

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June 20, 2011, 06:10:10 PM
 #27

I am still looking for how can this be a scam or a PONZI SCHEME  Roll Eyes

Me too, notice how he won't address that rant?

So, who opened the trolls cages?

I'll tell you who:

Wired:  http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2011/06/gox/
CNBC:  http://www.cnbc.com/id/43464477  (this article makes me so mad, I'm writing a blog post refuting just about everything he said)
The Register:  http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/06/19/bitcoin_values_collapse_again/

Then they all come here and start Trolling forums.

I want to help Newbies, but I almost think we should make people pay 0.0001 BTC to get into the Forums at all.  That way you have to spend some time, setup the client, understand how it works, and find the BTC Faucet to send you 0.001 BTC, so you could send 0.0001 BTC to get into the forums and begin posting.

But I digress.

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June 20, 2011, 06:12:10 PM
 #28

8% of $853B is $68M.

$68B not $68M.  And no, Bill Gates couldn't get hold of $68 billion in cash.

Bill Gates worth is primarily in the form of stock and other assets.

You're right.  Bad decimals.  I'm wrong on that point.  I still don't believe it changes anything, but I'll concede your point.
Though it's a LOT closer than you originally posted.  Nuff said.

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conspirosphere.tk
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June 20, 2011, 06:15:37 PM
 #29

Why are you being dollar-centric? BTC is global, and so must be the scheme of reference and comparison.
Feel free to abstain to answer me since i am not interested in your b/s.


Thanks for proving that you are speaking out of your ass.

Bill Gates Net Worth: $56 Billion: 2011
Total global wealth: USD 195 trillion (*)
(*) https://www.credit-suisse.com/news/en/media_release.jsp?ns=41610

That is several orders of magnitude away from 8%.

8% of the "global wealth" in a single wallet (at least for a single currency) is quite common in the real world.  Ask Warren Buffet, or Bill Gates.

A Troll says, "What!?!?"

"Global Wealth" as defined by the amount of currency one owns / or can have personally. 
There is approximately $853 Billion in US Cash in circulation (http://www.visualeconomics.com/the-value-of-united-states-currency-in-circulation/)

8% of $853B is $68M.

Bill Gates is worth $56 Billion.

Ask yourself, could Bill Gates get $68M in cash?  Of course he could.  Using an analogy of "wealth" when discussing Bitcoins is silly.  The OP was commenting on 500K Bitcoins being in one wallet. 

Let's not mix our analogies.

umad?

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June 20, 2011, 06:39:12 PM
 #30

c'mon, its not a ponzi scheme for the same reason i said, too ppl have lot of bitcoin so the rest has few BTC, in this case i think it is harder to create a solid economy behind because to do that ppl need to start using BTC, so they've to spread among ppl.. atm only a little % of ppl are using BTC and growing their wallet.. if ppl just keep their BTC and dont spend it, markets will never exist, so who has 300-500k BTC has just lot of "nothing".. if a resource is limited and only few ppl have it, why the other need to use it when there're lot of other currencies and markets builded around em?

i still think that 8% to a single person (and btw other big % to other person) is a killer for the system.. so....... 21kk limit is too low, because ppl still need to know BTC and so will not have it (except buying it at very high price, but that means that a market is builded around BTC, so tath means that lot of ppl have BTC and they're not only growing their wallet but they're spending)

it is a little contorted but it is what i think, and i really want that BTC will be a solid currency, so im not trolling, i just think that ppl are gonna speculate only on BTC.

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June 20, 2011, 06:40:23 PM
 #31

Why are you being dollar-centric? BTC is global, and so must be the scheme of reference and comparison.
Feel free to abstain to answer me since i am not interested in your b/s.

I see you're still a Troll.

The answer to the question is simple.  You made an Analogy that 8% of the CURRNET Bitcoins was too large to have in a single wallet and that it was "impossible" for it not to be a "PONZI scheme".

I simply pointed out that 8% isn't all that much, in fact, we were only talking about the CURRENT Bitcoins in circulation, whereas a much more realistic notion would be 500K is what amount of ALL Bitcoins that could EVER exist.  That number is known to be 21,000,000.  So, then 500K is only 2.3% of the total.  

So, using my previous analogy (in which you so graciously pointed out my error):

Could Bill Gates have 2.3% of the US Currency in Circulation in a single "Wallet".  

That would be $19.6M, and yes sir, he most certainly could have $19M in cash, easily.

And why US Currency?  Because it's *a* currency.  Unless you believe the goal of Bitcoin is to replace every currency in the entire world.  It would make me happy, but alas, I think that is a bit grandiose.  I'm glad you're so optimistic though.

umad?

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June 20, 2011, 06:42:32 PM
 #32

Why are you being dollar-centric? BTC is global, and so must be the scheme of reference and comparison.
Feel free to abstain to answer me since i am not interested in your b/s.

I see you're still a Troll.

The answer to the question is simple.  You made an Analogy that 8% of the CURRNET Bitcoins was too large to have in a single wallet and that it was "impossible" for it not to be a "PONZI scheme".

I simply pointed out that 8% isn't all that much, in fact, we were only talking about the CURRENT Bitcoins in circulation, whereas a much more realistic notion would be 500K is what amount of ALL Bitcoins that could EVER exist.  That number is known to be 21,000,000.  So, then 500K is only 2.3% of the total. 

So, using my previous analogy (in which you so graciously pointed out my error):

Could Bill Gates have 2.3% of the US Currency in Circulation in a single "Wallet". 

That would be $19.6M, and yes sir, he most certainly could have $19M in cash, easily.

And why US Currency?  Because it's *a* currency.  Unless you believe the goal of Bitcoin is to replace every currency in the entire world.  It would make me happy, but alas, I think that is a bit grandiose.  I'm glad you're so optimistic though.

umad?

dont feed the troll, as i said the problem is another.. who has 500k BTC (or similar) has to spend it to create a solid market around BTC. (he can only earn from this).

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June 20, 2011, 06:46:34 PM
 #33

the problem is another.. who has 500k BTC (or similar) has to spend it to create a solid market around BTC. (he can only earn from this).

I totally agree.  Hoarding is a much more "dangerous" issue than "even distribution".  No currency is evenly distributed, but any currency runs into issues when people hoard it.

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June 20, 2011, 07:18:42 PM
 #34

8% of an economy is an awful lot.  But it's irrelevant.

Bitcoin is not a Ponzi scheme.  Here's why: the defining features of a Ponzi scheme are these:

  • The perpetrator lies.
  • There is one central authority running the scheme; who is the one who finally profits at the expense of the "investors".
  • No money for the "investment" is ever spent.  The money sits in an account and old investors are paid from the incoming investments of new investors.
  • The number of investors must be ever increasing or the whole thing falls apart
  • Those left holding the ball at the end of the game are guaranteed to lose

Nobody is lied to about what Bitcoin is, there is no central authority, when you buy Bitcoins you are buying something, there is no requirement for more investors to keep an illusion alive, and there are no guaranteed losers.

Whatever Bitcoin is, it is not a Ponzi scheme.  Can we all please stop throwing around words like they are meaningless confetti?

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June 20, 2011, 08:25:43 PM
 #35

No currency is evenly distributed.

no currency is in limited number.. if today we would use gold in economy, how do u think we could do if who has the biggest % wont spend it? at least he can sell it at a really high price, so, why use gold if it has this problem? same for BTC.


aaaaaaaaaaaaaand....


authorities hate BTC..

2 problems at once.

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June 20, 2011, 08:40:55 PM
 #36

Moreover, it seems too much to have been plausibly earned in a legitimate way (anyone mined 100K+ BTCs?)   

Yes, some miners that have been here since the first few months have mined substanial amounts, well into the 100's of thousands.  Most of those same miners have divested since then, and no longer hold such huge amounts.  I can think of only one miner, that I know of, that has likely never sold much of his holdings. 

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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June 20, 2011, 11:39:29 PM
 #37

no currency is in limited number..

All currency is in limited quantity.  The only difference is whether that limit is artificially imposed by a central authority, or has a hard limit based on availability, ability to garner, or math (as in Bitcoins).

Bitcoins can grow just like any other currency, even beyond the 21,000,000 coin limit.  You move the decimal place and perform a 10:1 "stock split".  This is how businesses create new stock without having to dilute the current shares.

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June 21, 2011, 07:44:35 AM
 #38

no currency is in limited number..

All currency is in limited quantity.

Sure, in fact they're printable when they need.. (one of the pro-point of Bitcoin is that no one can print at pleasure)

You move the decimal place and perform a 10:1 "stock split".  This is how businesses create new stock without having to dilute the current shares.

the problem is still there.. someone 500k, others 0.001 BTC... the one who as 500k can manage the market..

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June 21, 2011, 07:53:44 AM
 #39

Is there some obvious detail that proves the account with 500K btc that got hacked and flash-sold, didn't belong to MtGox?

Someone who had recently hacked into MtGox, stolen user lists etc, might well have noticed such an account. Having already demonstrated hostility to MtGox, and maybe figuring there was no way they could outright steal the 500K btc and get away with it, couldn't they have decided to make MtGox 'shoot themselves in the head' by flash-selling their own bitcoin hoard?

Would certainly explain MtGox's quick response to rollback. They want _their_ money back.

(I'm new here, sorry if that scenario is unworkable due to some detail I'm not aware of.)

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June 21, 2011, 12:23:57 PM
 #40

i would have expected the user with 500k BTC to have come forward by this point..
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