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Author Topic: A proposed fair premine idea  (Read 2260 times)
ictin
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May 10, 2013, 10:57:33 AM
 #21

Why not simply disable the seed server until 24hr after people have had a chance to download the client software ans set up?

because people could still mine during that time?

The best way to do this would be a high starting difficulty - say 4000, and announce the coin launch at least a couple of days in advance.

Yes 4000 is a good idea, and so only people with big and powerful rigs can mine the coin, the same people that had made a fortune from bitcoin and they bought this rigs, the same people who are against of anybody making a profit except them. I don't believe for a second that the guy or guys who have designed bitcoin didn't think: "Hmm, let's do this and if is working we will make some money!"

And yes, again, bitcoin was premined the same way the others coins have been premined. I can make a coin, and then send a mail to some of my friends and then make a public announcement here after a while, and say: "Hey, is not premined, there where this guys that knew"

My feeling is that the whole premine and crypto currency in general is full of hypocrisy. And this is the true. People had made small fortunes with the crypto coins and now are telling how unethical it is to use the crypto coins for profit.

And is not about to value only profit, but I for one, if i make something out of passion and some guys are getting rich using what i done, and i get nothing, i will not be happy. Look at Tesla, he worked out of passion, but because he didn't care about the profit, he lost all his money and didn't have founds to finish his projects. Is fun to preach that other people should donate their time and other should profit when you are the one profiting and not the one "donating" the time

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May 10, 2013, 10:59:24 AM
 #22

The way I see it the longer we take to actually introduce a crypto currency that was fairly implemented the more chance we have of one of the BIG governments making their own successful and unfair crypto currency and destroying everything we have done.

I do wish people would stop releasing junk and start actually listening to and working with the community on here.


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May 10, 2013, 11:23:37 AM
 #23

Why not simply disable the seed server until 24hr after people have had a chance to download the client software ans set up?

because people could still mine during that time?

The best way to do this would be a high starting difficulty - say 4000, and announce the coin launch at least a couple of days in advance.

Yes 4000 is a good idea, and so only people with big and powerful rigs can mine the coin, the same people that had made a fortune from bitcoin and they bought this rigs, the same people who are against of anybody making a profit except them. I don't believe for a second that the guy or guys who have designed bitcoin didn't think: "Hmm, let's do this and if is working we will make some money!"

And yes, again, bitcoin was premined the same way the others coins have been premined. I can make a coin, and then send a mail to some of my friends and then make a public announcement here after a while, and say: "Hey, is not premined, there where this guys that knew"

My feeling is that the whole premine and crypto currency in general is full of hypocrisy. And this is the true. People had made small fortunes with the crypto coins and now are telling how unethical it is to use the crypto coins for profit.

And is not about to value only profit, but I for one, if i make something out of passion and some guys are getting rich using what i done, and i get nothing, i will not be happy. Look at Tesla, he worked out of passion, but because he didn't care about the profit, he lost all his money and didn't have founds to finish his projects. Is fun to preach that other people should donate their time and other should profit when you are the one profiting and not the one "donating" the time
I don't like resorting to personal results, but check the genesis block. It was not premined, because it had a message embed in it showing the date and a news article.

Learn what you're fucking talking about
Rampion
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May 10, 2013, 11:25:22 AM
 #24

No premine is fair.

Bitcoin was not created by someone who wanted to make a quick buck. Bitcoin was created by someone who wanted an alternate system for digital money and transactions.

Anyone who creates an alt coin for the purpose of getting a profit has dubious motivations.

errr... Which one of the 100 coins that were created in the last few weeks has another purpose apart from getting quick profit?

ictin
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May 10, 2013, 11:33:34 AM
 #25

Why not simply disable the seed server until 24hr after people have had a chance to download the client software ans set up?

because people could still mine during that time?

The best way to do this would be a high starting difficulty - say 4000, and announce the coin launch at least a couple of days in advance.

Yes 4000 is a good idea, and so only people with big and powerful rigs can mine the coin, the same people that had made a fortune from bitcoin and they bought this rigs, the same people who are against of anybody making a profit except them. I don't believe for a second that the guy or guys who have designed bitcoin didn't think: "Hmm, let's do this and if is working we will make some money!"

And yes, again, bitcoin was premined the same way the others coins have been premined. I can make a coin, and then send a mail to some of my friends and then make a public announcement here after a while, and say: "Hey, is not premined, there where this guys that knew"

My feeling is that the whole premine and crypto currency in general is full of hypocrisy. And this is the true. People had made small fortunes with the crypto coins and now are telling how unethical it is to use the crypto coins for profit.

And is not about to value only profit, but I for one, if i make something out of passion and some guys are getting rich using what i done, and i get nothing, i will not be happy. Look at Tesla, he worked out of passion, but because he didn't care about the profit, he lost all his money and didn't have founds to finish his projects. Is fun to preach that other people should donate their time and other should profit when you are the one profiting and not the one "donating" the time
I don't like resorting to personal results, but check the genesis block. It was not premined, because it had a message embed in it showing the date and a news article.

Learn what you're fucking talking about
And the point is? If it had a message embed what is the point, since only a handful of people knew, and they mined like crazy, and made thousands of coins? What is point if i generate the genesis block now, i make the announcement and i throw with my friend some Gh at the network so everybody will get only orphans?


Yes i learned about bitcoin a month ago, and really i was surprised by the elitist attitude of some older members that had made a big profit with the bitcoin. Is like the religion where the priest are preaching poverty while dressed in golden clothes.

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May 10, 2013, 11:34:01 AM
 #26

Why not simply disable the seed server until 24hr after people have had a chance to download the client software ans set up?

because people could still mine during that time?

The best way to do this would be a high starting difficulty - say 4000, and announce the coin launch at least a couple of days in advance.

Yes 4000 is a good idea, and so only people with big and powerful rigs can mine the coin, the same people that had made a fortune from bitcoin and they bought this rigs, the same people who are against of anybody making a profit except them. I don't believe for a second that the guy or guys who have designed bitcoin didn't think: "Hmm, let's do this and if is working we will make some money!"

And yes, again, bitcoin was premined the same way the others coins have been premined. I can make a coin, and then send a mail to some of my friends and then make a public announcement here after a while, and say: "Hey, is not premined, there where this guys that knew"

My feeling is that the whole premine and crypto currency in general is full of hypocrisy. And this is the true. People had made small fortunes with the crypto coins and now are telling how unethical it is to use the crypto coins for profit.

And is not about to value only profit, but I for one, if i make something out of passion and some guys are getting rich using what i done, and i get nothing, i will not be happy. Look at Tesla, he worked out of passion, but because he didn't care about the profit, he lost all his money and didn't have founds to finish his projects. Is fun to preach that other people should donate their time and other should profit when you are the one profiting and not the one "donating" the time
I don't like resorting to personal results, but check the genesis block. It was not premined, because it had a message embed in it showing the date and a news article.

Learn what you're fucking talking about
And the point is? If it had a message embed what is the point, since only a handful of people knew, and they mined like crazy, and made thousands of coins? What is point if i generate the genesis block now, i make the announcement and i throw with my friend some Gh at the network so everybody will get only orphans?


Yes i learned about bitcoin a month ago, and really i was surprised by the elitist of some older members that had made a big profit with the bitcoin. Is like the religion where the priest are preaching poverty while dressed in golden clothes.

I have a feeling you have not looked through the blockchain.

Satoshi is leaving millions untouched.
ictin
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May 10, 2013, 11:42:59 AM
 #27


I have a feeling you have not looked through the blockchain.

Satoshi is leaving millions untouched.
And again, the point is? Because, no i didn't look at the blockchain to see what is doing X, i don't care, i have more important things to do.

 But again, what is the point that is leaving milions untouched? You say that he not changing his bitcoins to dollars? Good for him, i will do the same, it his idea and he believe he can go a long run, and it will go, probably also because now satoshi can found on his one the project and not be dependent on a 3rd party entity.

But where will bitcoin be now if from the first minute 1000 people would have had thousands of Gh/s pointed at him?

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May 10, 2013, 12:07:00 PM
 #28

Firstly, devcoin only gave 10% to miners.  That's not enough of an incentive.  I propose to give 90% to miners.

DeVCoin is merged mined. The miners basically get it free on the side while they mine bitcoins.

Even with GPUs mining bitcoin is still profitable, and the merged mined coins add to that profit.

Miners who also add namecoin to their merge make even more profit, it looks like Slush dropping namecoin from his merge might actually have made merging it even more profitable for everyone else too simply because less namecoins are being given away free on the side to miners who don't care about them. Less people who don't want namecoins so throw them away cheap might lead to a better exchange rate, or maybe it is just that lower difficulty encourages more people who actually care about them to add them to their merge.

DeVCoin doesn't need to give a large percentage to the miners because there are already lots of coins the miners get 100% of while merged mining. Bitcoin already pays their electricity, all the other coins are mined effectively free.

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May 10, 2013, 01:00:05 PM
 #29

-----------------------THREAD SUMMARY THUS FAR---------------------

OP has a subject line containing an oxymoron.  "Fair" & "Premine"
This sets up a debate on purposes of crypto coins: for betterment or for profit
blah, blah, blah.  many arguments about opensource and historic precedence.

Summary conclusion question: If the point of SN's Bitcoin project was to flip the financial system on it's head and not to get rich quickly, and it's proving successful, then what is the point of all the imitations (alts)?

Discussions of to premine or not, to make such and such coin with different block times and total coin amounts are all mute if the original idea (Bitcoin) is doing it's thing.  No matter how a creator of a new coin wraps their argument up with a pretty bow, the clear goal is to get rich quick. Otherwise they would be helping Bitcoin be the best it can be.  The groundwork is there, growth will come with time.  Are you following Satoshi's steps of fixing a broken financial system or are you trying to find the elusive golden egg? 

Bitcoin isn't broken, so which is it?
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May 10, 2013, 01:05:21 PM
 #30

-----------------------THREAD SUMMARY THUS FAR---------------------

OP has a subject line containing an oxymoron.  "Fair" & "Premine"
This sets up a debate on purposes of crypto coins: for betterment or for profit
blah, blah, blah.  many arguments about opensource and historic precedence.

Summary conclusion question: If the point of SN's Bitcoin project was to flip the financial system on it's head and not to get rich quickly, and it's proving successful, then what is the point of all the imitations (alts)?

Discussions of to premine or not, to make such and such coin with different block times and total coin amounts are all mute if the original idea (Bitcoin) is doing it's thing.  No matter how a creator of a new coin wraps their argument up with a pretty bow, the clear goal is to get rich quick. Otherwise they would be helping Bitcoin be the best it can be.  The groundwork is there, growth will come with time.  Are you following Satoshi's steps of fixing a broken financial system or are you trying to find the elusive golden egg? 

Bitcoin isn't broken, so which is it?
I agree with this wholeheartedly.
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May 10, 2013, 01:17:12 PM
 #31

Although it never took off, I sort of liked the Solidcoin (1st version) pre mine method. There was a pre mine to test the chain and what not, but the coins were given as bounties for the first people to set up pools, services, etc. Of course looking back the system as a whole didn't work for various reasons, but I don't think that the SC premine method was a bad idea. Or at least if a pre mine is necessary, it wasn't a bad way to go.
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May 10, 2013, 01:18:21 PM
 #32

-----------------------THREAD SUMMARY THUS FAR---------------------

OP has a subject line containing an oxymoron.  "Fair" & "Premine"
This sets up a debate on purposes of crypto coins: for betterment or for profit
blah, blah, blah.  many arguments about opensource and historic precedence.

Summary conclusion question: If the point of SN's Bitcoin project was to flip the financial system on it's head and not to get rich quickly, and it's proving successful, then what is the point of all the imitations (alts)?

Discussions of to premine or not, to make such and such coin with different block times and total coin amounts are all mute if the original idea (Bitcoin) is doing it's thing.  No matter how a creator of a new coin wraps their argument up with a pretty bow, the clear goal is to get rich quick. Otherwise they would be helping Bitcoin be the best it can be.  The groundwork is there, growth will come with time.  Are you following Satoshi's steps of fixing a broken financial system or are you trying to find the elusive golden egg? 

Bitcoin isn't broken, so which is it?
I agree with this wholeheartedly.

+1000

Really well put

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May 10, 2013, 01:21:39 PM
 #33

People who mined bitcoin early on deserve every bit of their profits because at that time, they were basically mining just to support bitcoin while taking on all of the costs of power and risk of having the whole network fail and become history. If everyone knew you could just print money back then that would be worth a lot today, everyone would have gotten in... We didn't know that, but the early miners believed in bitcoin.
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May 10, 2013, 01:59:54 PM
 #34

Bitcoin isn't broken, so which is it?
Well, bitcoin can be considered a beta, but in no way this design can be used to overthrow the banking system because:

1. the cap is at 21 millions and there are 7 billions people on Earth, so everybody will have to work with decimals, and this will not work for multiple reasons.

2. the block chain is big and it will get bigger. Moore law is not the answer, when you will need 1 BTC hardware to store 0.1 BTC. Plus you can't get it with you to pay at the store

3. The transaction time is huge.

Because of this reasons, bitcoin is only a good investment and saving currency, is not a currency for spending. We need a currency that you can take with your phone, to go with the phone and buy something at the store and we need to wait a maximum of 10 seconds for confirmation and not 2 hours, and we need to pay 1 or 0.5 for a pack of biscuits and not 0.00000000732

Yes, i know, all of the early adopters will say otherwise, and is normal because they have a lot of bitcoins and they want them to have a big value.

And we arrived at the last problem why the bitcoin alone can't overthrow the banks:
4. GREED.

The banking system is where it is because of the greed, because they want more that they can need. But the banking system is using a "centralized greed", but in crypto world is a P2P greed, envy and hypocrisy. The ones that have a lot of coin X (this is including BITCOIN) will defend that coin no matter how broken or flawed it is, the ones that are late will hate them and will try to bring the coin down or to clone it for a quick profit.

At this pace, the crypto coins will remain a geek only thing, where the guys that where early on the bitcoin can afford big rigs to take down new coins, and the late guys will clone some coins to make a quick profit.

Unless we don't get our shit together and don't acknowledge that:
1. we need incremental coins
2. the developers need to be payed in some way for their work, like the miners are now.

You think that a good programmer will quite his job to donate his time just so you can mine and make a profit?

I know when someone proposed that for first X block the reward will be 0, everyone jumped: and the miner mine for nothing?

3. we need to support the coins that brings something new and rejects the clone. I am still amazed that novacoin or PPC are ignored but everybody are so in love with feathercoin or china clone.

4. We really need to dump the old coins, when a new increment is ready.

And this is the hardest part. Because none of the ones that preach the world peace and the donation of time and other BS will do this, and this is because of the greed. So don't accuse other to be greedy when you are just as greedy.

For now the crypto coins are just a get rich scheme and speculation investment. If you really want to overthrow the bank we need this changes. And we need to use the greed for something constructive, we need to use the greed of the people as an incentive to work and improve the project.

If you jump on every developer who do something new that he has premined some coins you will just have a geekcoin and a bunch of useless clones and the crypto movement will die in a civil war.



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May 10, 2013, 02:07:48 PM
 #35

People who mine any new coin early on deserve every bit of their profits because at that time, they were basically mining just to support the coin while taking on all of the costs of power and risk of having the whole network fail and become history. If everyone knew you could just print money back then that would be worth a lot today, everyone would have gotten in... We didn't know that, but the early miners believe in the coin.
FTFY
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May 10, 2013, 02:28:56 PM
 #36

Bitcoin isn't broken, so which is it?
1. the cap is at 21 millions and there are 7 billions people on Earth, so everybody will have to work with decimals, and this will not work for multiple reasons.

You can rebase to work in mbtc and add more decimal points if neceessary.  This was all envisaged by Satoshi.

But you can also create btc certificates, in fact you SHOULD do this.

Let's say a govt was to start paying workers in bitcoin certificates.  They would make them redeemable by their own mined coins, or exchanged for currency, tax credits or court fines.

Very soon the bitcoin certificates would be as valuable as money.  More importantly, as the economy is stimulated, so go up revenues, yielding lower deficits (and hence borrowing costs) and ultimately surpluses.  The bitcoin certificates can be bought back easily and more money gets invested into goods and services. 
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May 10, 2013, 02:33:48 PM
 #37

People who mine any new coin early on deserve every bit of their profits because at that time, they were basically mining just to support the coin while taking on all of the costs of power and risk of having the whole network fail and become history. If everyone knew you could just print money back then that would be worth a lot today, everyone would have gotten in... We didn't know that, but the early miners believe in the coin.
FTFY

I see what you did there, but you didn't fix anything. The incentive for mining bitcoin early was not to get in on a pump and dump like it is now with the latest alt coins. Hence, why premining is so chaotic and unfair.
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May 10, 2013, 02:58:37 PM
 #38

There is still tons of money to be made just mining bitcoins.

Using p2pool to merged mine all the merged mined coins you get 15 second blocks with the GeistGeld for your fast block times applications/needs, so people needing fast blocks are already taken care of right there.

The bitcoins pays for more than just the electricity, even this late in the game.

The DeVCoins and GRouPcoins take care of the people who insist you need to keep creating coins forever.

The namecoins provide a p2p DNS system.

If other features are needed, at least add them to the merged mined mix, so they can be secured economically.

Also the merged mining mix is extremely fair, you can still get plenty of many of the coins in the mix mining with just one GPU, heck some of them are still low enough difficulty that CPUs could still get a block now and again even.

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May 10, 2013, 05:01:33 PM
 #39

Let's say that investors are needed to get a hypothetical coin to be developed.

What would be an ideal way to set this up?

1) Direct premine.  Make block 0 X coins and then give them directly to kickstarter investors
or

2) Tickets method.  Similar to a premine, but when the investors get the money is random.  Investors are given tickets to use to gain stake rewards proportional to their investment on kickstarter.  In doing so, these first investors also help to secure the blockchain.

your thoughts?
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May 10, 2013, 05:06:41 PM
 #40

Let's say that investors are needed to get a hypothetical coin to be developed.

What would be an ideal way to set this up?

1) Direct premine.  Make block 0 X coins and then give them directly to kickstarter investors
or

2) Tickets method.  Similar to a premine, but when the investors get the money is random.  Investors are given tickets to use to gain stake rewards proportional to their investment on kickstarter.  In doing so, these first investors also help to secure the blockchain.

your thoughts?

I'd start with a goal or reason for the new coin.  Something investors would want to invest in.  A good purpose for it's existence.
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