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Author Topic: Who would rather see Mt. Gox completely dissolved?  (Read 3896 times)
Anonymous
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June 20, 2011, 07:48:47 PM
 #21

You should probably practice what you preach and let the invisible hand of the market deal with MtGox as it sees fit. 
Heh, who says I am not advocating that?

The very nature of your question implies an explicit action taken by a single person or regulatory body.  You've been exposed!



Accountability by force isn't limited to governments, you know. People could enforce these contracts by raiding the server by any means necessary.
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chihlidog
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June 20, 2011, 07:50:50 PM
 #22

MtGox allowed my account to be compromised. A website dealing with a significant amount of assets allowed my information to be compromised, to put it more accurately. That is unforgivable. Others will view it differently, of course, but I certainly will never give Mt Gox a second thought from here out. They'll never have my business. No matter what.

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June 20, 2011, 07:55:29 PM
 #23

They failed to maintain their business. Contracts have been made and settled although there were devious parties involved but they aren't under the company's jurisdiction. Mt. Gox isn't a security force. They are an escrow. No vigilant justice should occur.

Instead of voiding people's trading contracts at large why doesn't Mt. Gox just hold itself liable and pay for the losses it caused directly? Why doesn't Mt. Gox just accept its failure? Why burden innocent traders for its negligence?

Again, personally, I think Mt. Gox should just be wiped off the map. They're done. They failed.

Going by the official story, Mtgox has to do a rollback. There's really no other option. They were the victim of a computer hack and to allow the trades which happened following the crack to continue would be to be complicit in the crime. If this were real $/£/euro being taken from someone and handed out in the street it would be no different to what has happened with Mtgox.

What bothers me currently is how unreasonable and irrational people are being. The forum looks like a childrens playground currently. I've just come across thread (http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=20139.msg252003#msg252003) where people are talking about sexual acts and goats. Come on people. This is getting a little too Animal Farm (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_Farm) for my liking. Many people have quite quickly showing their true colors in this.

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June 20, 2011, 07:56:51 PM
 #24

The forum looks like a childrens playground currently.

Currently? Don't you mean always?

LOL.
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June 20, 2011, 07:58:03 PM
 #25

You should probably practice what you preach and let the invisible hand of the market deal with MtGox as it sees fit. 
Heh, who says I am not advocating that?

The very nature of your question implies an explicit action taken by a single person or regulatory body.  You've been exposed!



Accountability by force isn't limited to governments, you know. People could enforce these contracts by raiding the server by any means necessary.

Or anyone who's fed up with Mt Gox could simply take their business elsewhere. We don't need to scream for a bloody revolution every week. Mt Gox messed up and customers got burned. If enough customers leave, Mt Gox will either die out, or improve itself to win customers back. No need to incite a mob.
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June 20, 2011, 07:59:33 PM
 #26

They act like other trading site's sh*t don't stink.
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June 20, 2011, 08:00:41 PM
 #27

Again, personally, I think Mt. Gox should just be wiped off the map. They're done. They failed.

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June 20, 2011, 08:04:13 PM
 #28

The forum looks like a childrens playground currently.
Currently? Don't you mean always?

Well, I'm too newb to know! Smiley

Did they ever implement the Karma system discussed in meta? I can't see it but I wondered if that was my user account lacking the priv.

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jerfelix
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June 20, 2011, 08:08:40 PM
 #29

Going by the official story, Mtgox has to do a rollback. There's really no other option. They were the victim of a computer hack and to allow the trades which happened following the crack to continue would be to be complicit in the crime. If this were real $/£/euro being taken from someone and handed out in the street it would be no different to what has happened with Mtgox

One thing they could do is "man up" to their mistake.  All trades stand, and people who lost Bitcoins will have their accounts returned to the same amount of Bitcoins as there was before the negligent security issue.  THAT would be the right answer.

If I had buy orders in at a penny and a nickle (which I had as recently as 4 days ago), I would feel totally cheated if those orders were filled, and then Mt. Gox took the Bitcoins away from me.  It is VERY possible that my trade was independent of the "stolen" bitcoins - perhaps someone (or their bot) saw the market tumbling, and sold to get out, and I bought... this would be a transaction between me and that individual, and has little to do with the stolen coins.

Bottom line is that Mt. Gox was making BOATLOADS of money before the issue.  They SHOULD HAVE taken steps to prevent this from happening, and they didn't.  So now they should pay, bitcoin for bitcoin, every harmed individual.  No "transaction rollback".  If they couldn't handle the liability, then they shouldn't have taken on the liability (along with the associated profits for the past few months).

Even if it took YEARS to make everyone whole, THAT is the right answer.  

carlerha
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June 20, 2011, 08:09:01 PM
 #30

I don't see why you want mtgox "dissolved", it already took a pretty hard hit and it will be punished for it without you gathering acknowledgments for your opinions in this thread. People can think for themselves, and when considering which exchange to send their money to, the recent mishappening will probably not qualify mtgox to the top of their list of choice.

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June 20, 2011, 08:13:42 PM
 #31

i have many question!

mt gox::"It appears that someone who performs audits on our system and had read-only access to our database had their computer compromised"

why and who are they preforming audits?

mt gox::" The unsalted user accounts in the wild are ones that haven't been accessed in over 2 months and are considered idle. Once we are back up we will have implemented SHA-512 multi-iteration salted hashing and all users will be required to update to a new strong password."


sooo the acc that was "hacked" was an acc that wasn't active for over 2 months and it had enoght bitcoins to cause such a crash?


does any know if Mt Gox. plan to try and find the hacker?

is trade hill required to "performs audits" as well?

what makes trade hills security better?


unk
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June 20, 2011, 08:37:00 PM
 #32

If I had buy orders in at a penny and a nickle (which I had as recently as 4 days ago), I would feel totally cheated if those orders were filled, and then Mt. Gox took the Bitcoins away from me.  It is VERY possible that my trade was independent of the "stolen" bitcoins - perhaps someone (or their bot) saw the market tumbling, and sold to get out, and I bought... this would be a transaction between me and that individual, and has little to do with the stolen coins.

Bottom line is that Mt. Gox was making BOATLOADS of money before the issue.  They SHOULD HAVE taken steps to prevent this from happening, and they didn't.  So now they should pay, bitcoin for bitcoin, every harmed individual.  No "transaction rollback".  If they couldn't handle the liability, then they shouldn't have taken on the liability (along with the associated profits for the past few months).

Even if it took YEARS to make everyone whole, THAT is the right answer.  

jerfelix seems exactly right about this.

mt. gox's reaction to the problem has been mountingly poor, in my view. they seem to want to avoid taking responsibility or acting as if they care about customer satisfaction, even though they have made substantial amounts of money from customers. either their marketing is very good or their community of customers is far too uncritical; it seems unfortunate for mt. gox not to be held to account because their customers have a misplaced sense of 'loyalty'.

in general, there's a remarkable lack of understanding of the business norms of exchanges and of contract law in these forums.

some myths and responses:

(1) myth: 'mt. gox has no choice but to roll back the trades; that's best for bitcoin.'

they do have a choice, and they're planning a rollback to satisfy their own interests, to cover their own liabilities for having lost customer funds. nobody benefits from a rollback except for mt. gox and the customer whose funds they allowed to be stolen.

(2) myth: 'it's common for exchanges to roll back transactions'

people hear that some transactions were 'rolled back' in the nyse flash crash and generalise that to this case, when the two cases are entirely different. i've explained this difference in other topics in detail, and moreover, not every trade in the 'flash crash' was rolled back.

mt. gox here is not reversing an exchange breakdown but attempting to reverse a theft of customer funds.

(3) myth: 'mt. gox has the right to do whatever they want, because the terms of service do not say otherwise'

in contract law, when a contract has a gap, the gap is filled in with implied terms that are typically drawn from business practices. a contractual gap does not give the party that happens to have power the right to do as it pleases.

(4) myth: 'people are responsible for all that happens when they use the same password on multiple sites'

users are partly responsible for their poor security practices, and mt. gox is also partly responsible for theirs. a leak of this magnitude is, in my view, probably unforgivable, particularly in a context where customers were trying to maintain privacy.

mt. gox seems to getting a free pass from people here for a very serious breach of privacy and security. people ought to be furious with them for this leak, and it wouldn't be wrong to ask for compensation for losses that resulted from the leak.

(5) myth: 'customers have no choice but to abide by mt. gox's decisions'

customers have many options that they can consider. legal action is a possibility, though an expensive one. additionally, dissatisfied customers can attempt to withdraw their bitcoins and then also attempt to reverse dollar transfers to mt. gox (through dwolla or their own consumer or merchant banks) in an amount that corresponds to what they assert is their legal right; consequently, mt. gox would need to sue them, rather than the other way around, if one of the parties was acting beyond their rights. there is no reason customers, rather than an unaccountable entity earning $70,000/day at their height, should be made to suffer losses as a result of this incident.

again, in case it matters, i don't stand to gain or lose from the rollback personally, and i've never had an account at mt. gox.

also, i don't want to overstate my argument. the situation here is complicated. i'm just trying to explain to people that it's not easy. i'm not sure a rollback would be wrong, but my contention is that mt. gox has not properly justified it yet.
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June 20, 2011, 08:39:38 PM
 #33

The market will decide what happens to Mtgox. Personally I'm going to keep trading with them. After an incident like this their security will only be stronger. I daresay other Bitcoin handling sites are working hard to improve security too.

All these people wanting the trades to stand and Mtgox to pay out of their own pockets: I guess its pretty damn easy to demand free money. I agree that rollback is the most elegant solution.

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Jaime Frontero
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June 20, 2011, 09:00:24 PM
 #34


What bothers me currently is how unreasonable and irrational people are being. The forum looks like a childrens playground currently. I've just come across thread (http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=20139.msg252003#msg252003) where people are talking about sexual acts and goats. Come on people. This is getting a little too Animal Farm (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_Farm) for my liking. Many people have quite quickly showing their true colors in this.

more like "Lord of the Flies" than "Animal Farm".

we'll see how it goes when MtGox re-opens - what else they have to say, what they do, and what everyone else does.

< shrug >

reality is the final arbiter.
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June 20, 2011, 09:09:45 PM
 #35

The very nature of your question implies an explicit action taken by a single person or regulatory body.  You've been exposed!

That picture is amazing.

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June 20, 2011, 11:26:52 PM
 #36

So long as the price is reflected correctly, I will continue using mtgox without a doubt unless one of the conspiracy theories get some evidence.

Mtgox helped build bitcoin into what it was before sunday, unfortunately they were responsible for the shambled mess it APPEARS to be now but I see no reason why it can't recover quickly.
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June 20, 2011, 11:35:32 PM
 #37

Nice to see you using Clark Kent's as avatar again, Atlas. Don't know why, but sounds more... you.

For the mtgox to stay or go, I don't give a damn, I registered an account to see how it was and ended up robbed @ mbc (I know my fault, same pwd, blah blah, sue me for trust mtgox, I probably deserve that), never traded there because I never got to understand wtf is "Liberty Reserve" anyway.  Undecided
Their story doesn't seams right, thou and I don't see how they will reverse btc withdraws...
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June 20, 2011, 11:40:28 PM
 #38

When, oh God, will we finally have a professional exchange where I can feel free to use the password "password" or "12345" without fear of reprisal?
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June 20, 2011, 11:44:09 PM
 #39

When, oh God, will we finally have a professional exchange where I can feel free to use the password "password" or "12345" without fear of reprisal?

My pwd was 14 chars long, upper+lower+numeric
anyway, a piece of cake for uncrypt MD5 crypt(pass,known salt) as it seams a miner or some miners probably used their incredible hash power to brutte-force it.

EDIT: To not mention I would probably be safer using "password" for password in any website where the owner isn't distributing dumps of his database than with any flavor of strong password there!
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June 21, 2011, 12:00:29 AM
 #40

Dissolved or not, but mtgox, at least, should be sold to some more steady hands. Current owners should suffer for incompetence and greed.
They should suffer - not bitcoin.

We will  meet in not-so-distant future.
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