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Author Topic: Dreaming about open sourcing an ASIC chip  (Read 2069 times)
tvbcof
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May 11, 2013, 11:26:34 PM
 #21


...

You're pointing out a lot of special use cases. Most ppl don't have a waterfall, or wood, or solar panel installation, or cheap electricity.

If I'd decide to give back to the community, I'd ask the community what it wants. Wink

Wood is not a factor.

Solar-electric is hardly uncommon though, nor is it a technology which is inaccessible to large swaths of the world's population on a geographical basis.  It is a bit uncommon to have a big enough installation to have it be practical to sell back to the grid leaving large numbers of people with the question mark about what to do with the excess electro-motive potential in times of excess.

Certain areas do have excess energy like Vietnam and small scale hydro.  Crypto-currency mining will never be profitable enough to justify installing generation potential I don't think, but it well could pay net profits over the cost of extra wear and tear on existing setups.

One thing I suspect is not high on the propriety lists of the world populations are for datacenter-sequestered mining operators to get rich mining with state-of-the-art hashing fabs.  Time will tell though.

BTW, it may or may not have occurred to some readers that a large organization could raise more money to be earmarked toward the design and fab low-nm chips by dropping one company picnic than a 'rich community benefactor' could likely achieve.  If/when they enter the game most of those who dream of being 'captains of industry' in the new economy will be swept away like a little bit of dandruff.


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KS
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May 12, 2013, 12:18:54 AM
 #22


...

You're pointing out a lot of special use cases. Most ppl don't have a waterfall, or wood, or solar panel installation, or cheap electricity.

If I'd decide to give back to the community, I'd ask the community what it wants. Wink

Wood is not a factor.

Solar-electric is hardly uncommon though, nor is it a technology which is inaccessible to large swaths of the world's population on a geographical basis.  It is a bit uncommon to have a big enough installation to have it be practical to sell back to the grid leaving large numbers of people with the question mark about what to do with the excess electro-motive potential in times of excess.

Certain areas do have excess energy like Vietnam and small scale hydro.  Crypto-currency mining will never be profitable enough to justify installing generation potential I don't think, but it well could pay net profits over the cost of extra wear and tear on existing setups.

One thing I suspect is not high on the propriety lists of the world populations are for datacenter-sequestered mining operators to get rich mining with state-of-the-art hashing fabs.  Time will tell though.

BTW, it may or may not have occurred to some readers that a large organization could raise more money to be earmarked toward the design and fab low-nm chips by dropping one company picnic than a 'rich community benefactor' could likely achieve.  If/when they enter the game most of those who dream of being 'captains of industry' in the new economy will be swept away like a little bit of dandruff.



Sorry to be the local troll, but you're just expressing your own bias, all energy sources discussions aside,

What about what the community wants? If you're doing sth FOR the community, you can either ask what THEY want or impose on them sth YOU think they want.

See what I mean?

“In Putin’s Russia bitcoin exchanges you.” - http://www.coindesk.com/ceo-bitcoin-officially-bans-china/
List of major BTC scams https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=576337
Bitstamp "no transfer" banks/countries list: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=270716.0
tvbcof
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May 12, 2013, 12:35:34 AM
 #23


Sorry to be the local troll, but you're just expressing your own bias, all energy sources discussions aside,

What about what the community wants? If you're doing sth FOR the community, you can either ask what THEY want or impose on them sth YOU think they want.

See what I mean?

I see what you mean, but it seems to make little sense.  You seem to be saying that it is only valid to state an opinion and viewpoint which expected to be that of others.

I am a member of the community, have strong opinions about what would be in the interest of Bitcoin and distributed crypto-currencies generally, and have relatively good resources and interest to act on these opinions.  Generally I want what I think is in the best interest of the ecosystem, and I assume that many other participants are of a similar mindset.

You may if you like, for the purposes of this thread, consider my voice as an member of the community stating what _I_ want.

It would be a legitimate complaint that I am not a member of the mining community.  Until now I have felt that it was boring and made less sense from an investment perspective then to simply buy BTC and sit on them.  Mining is just starting to be becoming very interesting to me (which I had not expected to happen for another 18 months or so.)


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May 12, 2013, 01:01:50 AM
 #24


Sorry to be the local troll, but you're just expressing your own bias, all energy sources discussions aside,

What about what the community wants? If you're doing sth FOR the community, you can either ask what THEY want or impose on them sth YOU think they want.

See what I mean?

I see what you mean, but it seems to make little sense.  You seem to be saying that it is only valid to state an opinion and viewpoint which expected to be that of others.

I am a member of the community, have strong opinions about what would be in the interest of Bitcoin and distributed crypto-currencies generally, and have relatively good resources and interest to act on these opinions.  Generally I want what I think is in the best interest of the ecosystem, and I assume that many other participants are of a similar mindset.

You may if you like, for the purposes of this thread, consider my voice as an member of the community stating what _I_ want.

It would be a legitimate complaint that I am not a member of the mining community.  Until now I have felt that it was boring and made less sense from an investment perspective then to simply buy BTC and sit on them.  Mining is just starting to be becoming very interesting to me (which I had not expected to happen for another 18 months or so.)



You're not stating an opinion, you're saying you want to do something for someone.

I'm saying great, do you know what that someone really wants/needs (did you ask) or do you simply assume you know, or make a bet that what you think is right, is right?

I understand you want to give everyone enough hashrate to stay current and form a strong community. It the how and the what that you should be careful not to misjudge.

If you give sth that nobody wants, it's not much use.

I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm saying "make sure before jumping".

“In Putin’s Russia bitcoin exchanges you.” - http://www.coindesk.com/ceo-bitcoin-officially-bans-china/
List of major BTC scams https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=576337
Bitstamp "no transfer" banks/countries list: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=270716.0
tvbcof
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May 12, 2013, 01:15:42 AM
 #25


You're not stating an opinion, you're saying you want to do something for someone.

I'm saying great, do you know what that someone really wants/needs (did you ask) or do you simply assume you know, or make a bet that what you think is right, is right?

I understand you want to give everyone enough hashrate to stay current and form a strong community. It the how and the what that you should be careful not to misjudge.

If you give sth that nobody wants, it's not much use.

I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm saying "make sure before jumping".

There seems to be pretty significant demand for horribly overpriced 'Block Erupter' USB stick miners.

That might tell people something...like...I dunno...perhaps a broad swath of the userbase would not mind the realistic ability to hash also?

---

To be a little more fair, those who spotted and purchased BE devices are probably not typical, but I do believe that there is a lot of interest in mining which is quashed by the high barrier to entry.  Certainly more than is quashed by a more dense circuit on a chip.  Whether you like it or not, I do suggest that you be prepared for it.


KS
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May 12, 2013, 08:27:01 AM
 #26


You're not stating an opinion, you're saying you want to do something for someone.

I'm saying great, do you know what that someone really wants/needs (did you ask) or do you simply assume you know, or make a bet that what you think is right, is right?

I understand you want to give everyone enough hashrate to stay current and form a strong community. It the how and the what that you should be careful not to misjudge.

If you give sth that nobody wants, it's not much use.

I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm saying "make sure before jumping".

There seems to be pretty significant demand for horribly overpriced 'Block Erupter' USB stick miners.

That might tell people something...like...I dunno...perhaps a broad swath of the userbase would not mind the realistic ability to hash also?

---

To be a little more fair, those who spotted and purchased BE devices are probably not typical, but I do believe that there is a lot of interest in mining which is quashed by the high barrier to entry.  Certainly more than is quashed by a more dense circuit on a chip.  Whether you like it or not, I do suggest that you be prepared for it.



Good point about the BE, although in this high uncertainty period, I wouldn't be surprised if ppl paid ANY price to get a hold of ASIC chips before others.

But you are evading the "let's ask the community" bit.

What I take from your posts is that you have decided what the community needs and that's what they'll get, whether they like it or not.

If you're ASIC product is a FAIL (there are various levels, like very low acceptance), will the community have benefited from your generosity?

So who are you doing this for really. The community or yourself?

“In Putin’s Russia bitcoin exchanges you.” - http://www.coindesk.com/ceo-bitcoin-officially-bans-china/
List of major BTC scams https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=576337
Bitstamp "no transfer" banks/countries list: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=270716.0
tvbcof
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May 12, 2013, 09:40:46 AM
 #27


Good point about the BE, although in this high uncertainty period, I wouldn't be surprised if ppl paid ANY price to get a hold of ASIC chips before others.

But you are evading the "let's ask the community" bit.

What I take from your posts is that you have decided what the community needs and that's what they'll get, whether they like it or not.

If you're ASIC product is a FAIL (there are various levels, like very low acceptance), will the community have benefited from your generosity?

So who are you doing this for really. The community or yourself?

My point about the Block Erupter  is that group orders filling as they are and people paying as they are IS the community speaking for themselves.  Speaking with their Bitcoin wallets.

Even most of the people on this forum probably have no clue that these little things are (hopefully) just around the corner.  I would expect a lot more interest...and action...as awareness grows and they are demonstrably hashing away for people.

I honestly am a little baffled about what you mean with your "ask the community" thing.  I mean, is there someone who has some magical power to speak for everyone?  I've got my own opinions and I stated them.  I never tried to and never did indicate that I spoke for anyone else.


KS
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May 12, 2013, 09:55:58 AM
 #28


Good point about the BE, although in this high uncertainty period, I wouldn't be surprised if ppl paid ANY price to get a hold of ASIC chips before others.

But you are evading the "let's ask the community" bit.

What I take from your posts is that you have decided what the community needs and that's what they'll get, whether they like it or not.

If you're ASIC product is a FAIL (there are various levels, like very low acceptance), will the community have benefited from your generosity?

So who are you doing this for really. The community or yourself?

My point about the Block Erupter  is that group orders filling as they are and people paying as they are IS the community speaking for themselves.  Speaking with their Bitcoin wallets.

Even most of the people on this forum probably have no clue that these little things are (hopefully) just around the corner.  I would expect a lot more interest...and action...as awareness grows and they are demonstrably hashing away for people.

I honestly am a little baffled about what you mean with your "ask the community" thing.  I mean, is there someone who has some magical power to speak for everyone?  I've got my own opinions and I stated them.  I never tried to and never did indicate that I spoke for anyone else.



Yes, getting ripped off in BTC _because they can_.

Let's drop the "ask the community" thing, it's obviously not coming through. I didn't mean to offend you.

“In Putin’s Russia bitcoin exchanges you.” - http://www.coindesk.com/ceo-bitcoin-officially-bans-china/
List of major BTC scams https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=576337
Bitstamp "no transfer" banks/countries list: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=270716.0
tvbcof
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May 12, 2013, 10:17:41 AM
 #29


Yes, getting ripped off in BTC _because they can_.

Let's drop the "ask the community" thing, it's obviously not coming through. I didn't mean to offend you.

If the sales of the Block Erupter mining device are brisk at known rip-off prices (and most of my fellow buyers on the group-buy I'm a participant in seem to agree with this assessment)  I'm very hopeful that sales at realistic prices will be through the roof.  I'm hopefull about the competition from the Avalon chips bringing prices of this class if mining rig down, and if Avalon really does dump half a million 280 MH/s chips on the market there should be plenty for this kind of duty.

I'd not seen ~friedcat's earlier message when he mentioned selling these a month or two ago, but he seems to also be of the opinion that it would be good for the distributed crypto-currency world to get hashing power well distributed.  It's really good to see someone who has the ability and gumption to make real things happen also have his general sense of the ecosystem seem to align with my own.  As opposed to, say, 'dreaming' about it.

And you didn't offend me at all.  Mostly you just confused me with the 'community' and 'my comments' line of exploration.


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May 16, 2013, 07:36:10 PM
 #30

Using electricity to warm up things (be it a house or swimming pool) isn't cost effective at all, and this is why it's not being used.
I don't think that we will see mining chips in something we use everyday and with other purposes, because it doesn't make economical sense to put them there.
I don't agree with your "we don't need low-nm chips because we will use the heat for other things" point of view.

I only use electricity to heat my home, either directly or trough a heatpump.

If my hot-water tank could be heated by a miner to say 50C, I could have used an electric flash-heater to bring it up the last few degrees.

If you could mine with your water-heater, and the mining brought in 50% of the cost of heating it, it would be the same as having half-priced electricity.

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