Bitcoin Forum
December 17, 2017, 01:08:43 AM *
News: Latest stable version of Bitcoin Core: 0.15.1  [Torrent].
 
   Home   Help Search Donate Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 [All]
  Print  
Author Topic: I'm Kevin, here's my side.  (Read 256258 times)
toasty
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 81


View Profile
June 20, 2011, 09:09:52 PM
 #1



I’m Kevin and I'm the guy who bought 259684 BTC for under $3000 yesterday. I really wanted to keep this as quiet as possible, but I don't feel I can anymore. Here's my side of what happened.

On an exchange like MtGox, there are typically hundreds of standing "buy orders" where people are offering to buy bitcoins at various amounts and prices. When a large sell order comes in, an exchange will start with the highest priced buy order, match up the buyer and seller, then move down to the next lowest buy order. This repeats until the entire quantity of bitcoins being sold have found buyers, or there are no more buyers at the minimum price the seller was willing to accept.

I was watching, like many of you, a gigantic sell order burning through the bids. Mt Gox doesn't execute trades very quickly, so we were watching this huge order slowly eat up every buy order on the books. The price started at around $17.50, and within minutes was below $10. At this point, I realized this wasn't merely a large seller willing to accept some losses. This was someone attempting to crash the market by selling a huge percentage of the market's total bitcoins at once.

I had around $3000 USD in my Mt Gox account, from earlier sales I'd made. I looked at the market stats, and realized that there were tons of orders to buy BTC at $0.01 that would likely eat up any remaining bitcoins this seller had on the order. I figured if I put a buy order in for $0.0101, my order would execute first and I could buy a huge amount of bitcoins from this seller before it hit the bottom. The only problem was that Mt Gox was running slower than molasses at the time, and everyone was saying that it wasn't accepting trades. I had to try several times, but eventually I got a buy order in, offering to buy as many bitcoins as I could for $0.0101.

The site stopped responding completely for a while, probably from so many people hitting refresh to see what was going on. When I got back in, I saw in my account:

06/19/11 17:51  Bought BTC  259684.77 for 0.0101

I had just purchased over 250,000 bitcoins for $2613. At the trading price immediately before this large sell order happened, that number would have been worth nearly $5 million. After I regained my breath, I tried to figure out what to do. I wasn't sure what was really going on. Over the past few days there had been a lot of talk and complaints about Mt Gox's security. Lists of Mt Gox usernames, email addresses and encrypted passwords were being traded around, which was an obvious sign that security at Mt Gox had been breached in some way. If there was an attacker in the system, perhaps he was able to log into my account now and force my account to execute some other crazy trade.

I attempted to withdraw the bitcoin balance into my own wallet, and hit the limit that Mt Gox has, preventing you from withdrawing more than $1000 USD worth of bitcoins (at the current market value) in a day. This transferred 643.27 bitcoins to my personal bitcoin account before hitting that limit. It was pretty well known that the limit for transferring bitcoins was actually broken in Mt Gox. It stopped you from moving more than that in one withdrawal, but you could immediately ask for more and get another $1000 USD worth, over and over. I decided against this, since it was exploiting a bug, and I definitely didn't want to do anything suspicious looking or improper.

The thought also occurred to me that there were only about 100 bitcoins worth of buy orders back on the market in the minutes immediately following all of this. I could place a reasonably sized sell order for $0.001, crash the market again, and withdraw probably all of the bitcoins, since they'd be valued at $0.001 each and would fit under the $1000 USD limit. I also decided against this, when I realized that whoever placed the gigantic sell order was probably doing so for the exact same reasons and I knew how that would make me look.

I then sent an private message on IRC to MagicalTux (Mark Karpeles, the founder of Mt Gox) to explain that I was the one who won the giant buy order, and that I wasn't the same person as whoever placed the huge sell order. We'd talked previously, including a private talk a couple of days ago about Mt Gox's "change my password" system not working. He didn't respond to me at all, but I figured he was busy. A few minutes later he was saying in public that he'd decided to reverse all the recent trades, effectively undoing the final 3602 trades that were executed before he shut the site down.

We talked a bit, and I started to become increasingly concerned with what Mt Gox was saying in public which was totally contradicting what I knew to have happened. The Mt Gox status page said:

Quote
"One account with a lot of coins was compromised and whoever stole it (using a HK based IP to login) first sold all the coins in there, to buy those again just after, and then tried to withdraw the coins. The $1000/day withdraw limit was active for this account and the hacker could only get out with $1000 worth of coins."

There are three very misleading elements in that line alone.

First, this makes it sound like the "hacker" is the one who was buying back all the bitcoins at a penny. We all were watching the trades execute in real time, there was only one buy order of anywhere near the size of the huge sell order that went through, and I was the buyer not the hacker. Other people in IRC were saying which other buy orders they were able to get. The hacker couldn't have been able to buy back even 10% of the bitcoins that were sold during the sell-off. Did this mean Mark thought *I* was the hacker? I have repeatedly asked him this question, which he's managed to ignore each time.

Recently I've been getting into the bitcoin trading market. Over the last couple of weeks, I was hitting the $1000 USD Dwolla cash withdrawal limit from Mt Gox, so I requested that it be increased. I sent Mt Gox a copy of my driver's license and two utility bills in my name/address to prove my identity, which Mark accepted and increased my limit. Could that have been faked? Sure. But, if I was the hacker I was going about this whole thing stupidly. I had several ways I could have drained the Mt Gox account, and deliberately didn't. I immediately contacted Mark to identify myself as the buyer and offer assistance. If I were up to something shady, I was doing a really bad job at it.

The second thing wrong with Mt Gox's statement is that it makes it sound like only the hacker managed to withdraw any money, and even then only $1000 worth. I alone withdrew 643 bitcoins (worth more than $10,000 USD easily). The withdrawal limit feature was so broken, it was hard to imagine the hacker didn't know how to exploit it.

On top of how misleading I felt they were being about what I knew occurred, I felt it was far worse that they were using this argument for why they wanted to undo the trades. From reading their public statements, they're making it sound like they're reverting the trades because they want to prevent a hacker from profiting from it. This is simply not true, the vast majority, if not all of the buy orders that picked up coins at a low price were regular users like myself. Any profit this hacker was going to make, he's already done so. The majority of the buy orders that got executed were standing orders from legit users that had been in the system for quite some time, and those are the orders he's threatening to revert.

And this is where I, like others here, have a problem. Of course I am greatly biased here, but look at what's going on:


1) Rolling back/Breaking trades is something Mt Gox said they wouldn't do.

Many exchanges will break trades if something truly unusual happened, but there's a policy listed in advance so everyone knows how, when and why it will kick in. Mt Gox never claimed they felt they had the authority to undo trades, in fact the Mt Gox website states:

Quote
"You are trading with other users of Mt Gox. Mt Gox does not act as a counter party to any trades."

Claiming that Mt Gox isn't a "counter party" to trades has a specific legal meaning. Typically market participants, stock brokers and other associated people are "counter parties" or "central counter parties" to trades, taking on the burden of insuring trades were executed properly. Put simply, Mt Gox was saying in legal terms they were only acting as a match maker between buyers and sellers, not involving themselves in any issues that may come up from the trades themselves.

If they're claiming they have no responsibility for what occurs, that means they don't get to flex any control over it. You're either merely introducing buyers and sellers to each other and have no liability or power over what happens after that point, or you are a central counter party to the trade and do get to make those decisions. Mt Gox is trying to have it both ways, after telling us that they didn't want the responsibility. No rollback policy was ever published or even discussed anywhere I could find.



2) Mt Gox had been repeatedly warned about password security issues recently, and continued to reassure us everything was safe.

An exchange cannot be allowed to reassure customers of their security and fail to accept responsibility when it is proven to be insecure. As customers of Mt Gox, we cannot have the same visibility into their systems that they do and must rely on their word that the exchange is trustworthy. If exchanges are allowed to repeatedly tell us we can rely on their trading platform, fail at securing it, then be given a blank check to remove funds from anyone they desire to make themselves whole again, no exchange has any incentive to secure themselves.


3) The precedent they're setting here cannot be maintained.

Exactly what happened here may never be fully known, but according to Mt Gox an unauthorized user accessed someone's account and placed a sell order. Passwords get guessed/leaked all the time, and any exchange that attempts to undo that in every case will undoubtably fail.

If I'm careless with my password and someone places orders on my behalf in my account without my permission, will Mt Gox revert an hour's worth of trading to fix it? What if I only had 2 bitcoins? Or 20? or 200? There is no way rolling back trades to handle a compromised password in any way that will scale to the size of bitcoin's current economy. Unless Mt Gox is wiling to explicitly say they'll give this same treatment to any user who has their account compromised, it's blatantly unfair to everyone else.

This also opens the door to allowing anyone to request equal treatment if they made some trades they later regret. Log in through a proxy to make it seem like someone from a distant country was using your account, make your trades, then later scream about how your account was compromised and you want a do-over.


4) The whole situation seems fishy once you know everything that’s been made public.

Mt Gox's story is requiring extreme leaps of faith to believe. They have insisted that only one account was accessed. This means they expect us to believe:

 * A Mt Gox user had more than 500,000 bitcoins stored in their Mt Gox account (more than $8 million by Sunday's prices).
 * This user chose a password that was able to be guessed by a password cracker from the encrypted hash of their pass. (This means their password was likely quite simple)
 * This user managed to amass this many bitcoins without being involved in the community enough to hear everyone screaming about the password file being leaked to the world.
 * Mark claimed to me that police reports were filed in less than an hour after Mt Gox's trading was halted.
 * The decision to roll back trades was announced within minutes of them investigating.
 * Mt Gox's public statements have been, at best, misleading.

All of this is so implausible that I can't help but believe we are not being told the whole story. I am not implying that I believe Mt Gox is acting dishonorably, but that if they don't respond to this sort of thing, people will start jumping to worse conclusions.

If I had $8 million worth of easily convertible currency, there is absolutely no way I would store it on a public website like Mt Gox, no matter how secure I believed it was. If I had to store that much there, even temporarily, I would use a password so long it would make War and Peace look like a Twitter message.

Is the account owner a friend or investor in Mt Gox?  The account owner managed to get decisions made and a police report filed faster than I was able to get a response out of Mark. If there is some kind of connection between the account owner at Mt Gox, this needs to be fully disclosed and explained before any actions are taken, or any trust in what Mt Gox does is going to be shattered.

I am not actually accusing Mt Gox of scamming us or anything, but asking their users to accept over 500,000 BTC in orders to be reversed due to a story that has some serious holes in it, greatly benefits an anonymous account holder, and has some elements that are provably false is simply unacceptable.


5) Claims that they want to revert to protect the market are false.

Again, unless there are major pieces of the story missing, the hacker has already gotten away with whatever they were going to. Secure the compromised account with a better password and that matter is closed.

Mt Gox's website was severely affected by the large sell order, very very few new sell orders made it into the system. A few people did get some panic sells in during the freefall, but they were tiny in comparison to the volume of the big sell that started the mess.

The majority of the "buy" orders that got executed were long standing buy orders that were already in the system. Those people, before any crash started, told the system of their intent to buy at specific prices, and those agreements were honored. At worst, buyers got exactly what they already agreed to purchase, at best got a good deal.

The market made a 70% recovery within minutes, and was continuing to trend upwards before Mt Gox halted trading and shut their web server down.

The only parties that need to be involved in this are Mt Gox and the original account owner to determine if any unauthorized trades were actually made from their account, and how Mt Gox is going to make it up to them.


6) Mt Gox has several options before them, and are choosing to screw over the community to protect their profit.

I've seen people throwing around three options:

Option 1: Rollback all trades.

+ The guy who chose to store $8m in bitcoins on a public website gets the majority of his money back
+ Mt Gox is out very little
? Sellers who placed a panic sell during the freefall get a free undo.
- This sets a precedent that trades can be reversed, which increases risk and will likely result in some players want to wait for their trades to "clear" before taking further action making us no better than using PayPal.
- This gives strong incentive for traders to immediately withdraw funds after a trade, which will greatly reduce liquidity.
- Buyers who had both new and long time orders that were executed are getting them revoked by a policy that didn't exist yesterday.
- Had I not decided to "do the right thing" and leave the funds in Mt Gox, this wouldn't even be an option.

Option 2: Mt Gox tells the account owner "tough luck" and does nothing.

+ Everyone else who placed orders will be unaffected
- The account owner that got hacked is facing massive losses from something that may have not been completely their fault.
- This gives strong incentive for traders to immediately withdraw funds after a trade, which will greatly reduce liquidity.
- Mt Gox ends up earning their trading fees off someone's loss that they were likely partially or fully responsible for.

Option 3: Mt Gox takes responsibility, and reimburses the original account owner's account to the best of their ability.

+ The exchange is forced to deal with the consequences of their negligent lapse in security
+ Faith in the trading market would be largely restored if not increased
+ Buyers who placed orders that were executed get what they paid for
+ Mt Gox has clearly made several times more revenue (through trading fees) than this incident would cost them to completely absorb.
+ If this became an expected feature of an exchange, only exchanges that actually protected our accounts would survive.
+ Mt Gox is the only party that can go after the auditor that they are claiming was responsible for this incident
- It is uncertain if Mt Gox actually has that much liquid reserve to do this fully.

I am publicly asking Mt Gox to explain why they are unwilling to go for Option 3. They're choosing the option that costs them the least, protecting this mystery user at the expense of the entire bitcoin community. Their decision will result it everyone refusing to keep balances in the exchange for fear that profitable trades will be lost at the whim of the exchange owner. You've heard my story, if you make a sudden windfall trade that nets you a good profit, how long are you going to let Mt Gox hold onto it, out of fear they're going to claim it was invalid? If everyone is doing this, where is the money going to come from to make trades?


I realize a lot of this is going to fall on deaf ears who think I’m only doing this for my own profit. I’d believe this no matter what, but I probably wouldn’t be fighting so passionately if I didn’t have some stake in it.

I made a bunch of attempts to try to come up with some kind of mutually agreed on plan with the Mt Gox people, only to get stalled (they won't even talk to me until I sent them notarized copies of my photo ID on a Sunday?). I'd like to end as much uncertainty as I can, so this is my side. We all have opportunities to totally disrupt the market. I could threaten legal action which would cause an even bigger run on their reserves. Mt Gox could close their doors and take everyone's cash. I could have drained the money from Mt Gox but didn't. I really just want a fair solution that doesn't leave anyone hanging and doesn't disrupt the whole economy any more than it already has been.

*flame suit on*
1513472923
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1513472923

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1513472923
Reply with quote  #2

1513472923
Report to moderator
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction. Advertise here.
1513472923
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1513472923

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1513472923
Reply with quote  #2

1513472923
Report to moderator
1513472923
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1513472923

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1513472923
Reply with quote  #2

1513472923
Report to moderator
tehcodez
Jr. Member
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 42


View Profile
June 20, 2011, 09:12:20 PM
 #2

Someone wants to keep their fat "booty"...
Cusipzzz
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 324



View Profile
June 20, 2011, 09:13:04 PM
 #3

You stole 643 btc. Congrats.

Every major exchange breaks trades. Too bad for you, consider yourself lucky if you don't get sued for the 643 btc.
toasty
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 81


View Profile
June 20, 2011, 09:15:24 PM
 #4

You stole 643 btc. Congrats.

Every major exchange breaks trades. Too bad for you, consider yourself lucky if you don't get sued for the 643 btc.

Every major exchange has written policies saying when breaks will happen. MtGox specifically said they weren't a party to the trades, and had no policy for doing so.

I also haven't said what I would do with that 643.
Synaptic
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 84


View Profile
June 20, 2011, 09:15:35 PM
 #5

ITT:

Zealots zealoting zealotry.
lemonginger
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 210


firstbits: 121vnq


View Profile
June 20, 2011, 09:16:32 PM
 #6

+ Mt Gox has clearly made several times more revenue (through trading fees) than this incident would cost them to completely absorb.

I have no idea if you are who you so you are. I also agree that it is highly improbably that a single user was storing so many bitcoins on mt gox. However, this statement is not true. You are claiming that Mt Gox has already made millions of dollars and could absorb this loss without going under and taking the entire bitcoin economy with them. I fail to see how Mt Gox being made insolvent and lots of people ending up with no cash is a better outcome than rolling back trades (which again, happens all the time). I agree that Mt Gox and all exchanges need to be more explicit about this in the future but I don't think they have a legal or ethical obligation to honor the trades.
DamienBlack
Jr. Member
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 56


View Profile
June 20, 2011, 09:17:36 PM
 #7

The rollback is inevitable. I feel bad for you because I would have felt like I one that lottery and then it was taken away. But, it simply has to happen.

It is possible that mt gox lost more than they have reported yet, but I don't think they lost enough to not be able to function. We'll see soon enough. I was never under the impression that the hacker was buying at a penny. It seems like the hacker was just acting crazy.

I trade bitcoin options at https://bitoption.org/ ... Join me.
I play poker at https://betco.in/ ... Join me.
Support the bitcoin economy, what do you do?
Tips: 1NfXhiTFEdKQTdLy49s6DYAP1K7MeFWyao
Cusipzzz
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 324



View Profile
June 20, 2011, 09:18:08 PM
 #8

You stole 643 btc. Congrats.

Every major exchange breaks trades. Too bad for you, consider yourself lucky if you don't get sued for the 643 btc.

Every major exchange has written policies saying when breaks will happen. MtGox specifically said they weren't a party to the trades, and had no policy for doing so.

I also haven't said what I would do with that 643.


Most exchanges have a general rule about 'clearly erroneous trades' - this is usually defined as 20%+ away from recent activity. Trades at .011 clearly fall under this globally accepted guideline.

Mtgox is charged with running a fair and orderly exchange. That obv did not happen here and he has no choice but to correct it. Again, you have balls asking for the rest after taking 643 btc.
TraderTimm
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2030



View Profile
June 20, 2011, 09:19:10 PM
 #9

Executive summary:

1.) "I took advantage of an extraordinary event that turned out to be initiated by a rogue sell order, not legitimate trading."

2.) "Can I keep it? Look, here's why."

No, sorry. To allow the trade to stand would legitimize the attack, is that what you really want? (Besides bitcoins and dollars, I mean.)

fortitudinem multis - catenum regit omnia
SpaceLord
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 70


View Profile
June 20, 2011, 09:20:11 PM
 #10

I was assuming that your 0.01 trades were longstanding, and thus were the first 1 cent trades that were made(due to FIFO.) Now that I see that you did this while the price was crashing....well, I don't know what to think.  Huh
toasty
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 81


View Profile
June 20, 2011, 09:20:24 PM
 #11

+ Mt Gox has clearly made several times more revenue (through trading fees) than this incident would cost them to completely absorb.

I have no idea if you are who you so you are. I also agree that it is highly improbably that a single user was storing so many bitcoins on mt gox. However, this statement is not true. You are claiming that Mt Gox has already made millions of dollars and could absorb this loss without going under and taking the entire bitcoin economy with them.

No, I'm not claiming that they could have millions of dollars. But I am claiming that they've made many hundreds of bitcoins per day. Take the public volume, times their fee. If they don't have enough in BTC to cover the entirety of this, they're doing something very very wrong.

(edit to change incorrect comment about dark pool trade)
lemonginger
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 210


firstbits: 121vnq


View Profile
June 20, 2011, 09:20:33 PM
 #12

Although an alternative view would be that this redistribution of bitcoins into more people's hands would be good for the economy. Both because people tend to spend "windfalls" more freely than other money and because it would get coins in circulation that were just sitting there. Still, assuming that there is a person out there that would go after Mt Gox for the loss, I'm not sure they could be made whole withot Mt Gox going under and a lot of people losing a lot of money.
Maged
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1260


View Profile
June 20, 2011, 09:20:43 PM
 #13

I have no idea if you are who you so you are.
He is. I've verified it.

DamienBlack
Jr. Member
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 56


View Profile
June 20, 2011, 09:22:01 PM
 #14

So the only minus of option three is... it might be impossible. Well, a back of the envelope calculation tell me that it is impossible. Of all the options, I prefer the rollback.

I trade bitcoin options at https://bitoption.org/ ... Join me.
I play poker at https://betco.in/ ... Join me.
Support the bitcoin economy, what do you do?
Tips: 1NfXhiTFEdKQTdLy49s6DYAP1K7MeFWyao
Oldminer
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1022



View Profile
June 20, 2011, 09:22:10 PM
 #15

Tl;dr and no-one cares.

If you like my post please feel free to give me some positive rep https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=trust;u=18639
Tip me BTC: 1FBmoYijXVizfYk25CpiN8Eds9J6YiRDaX
Jaime Frontero
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 126


View Profile
June 20, 2011, 09:22:23 PM
 #16

interesting can of worms.

i can't think i'd want to take the position of either party.
bitrebel
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 364


View Profile
June 20, 2011, 09:22:31 PM
 #17

You are correct Kevin to take this approach. I believe Mt Gox tried to fuck everyone, especially you.  I believe they may have stolen bitcoins from accounts, then tried to sell them to buy them back up, thus laundering them into their own hands.

That's just my opinion, based on everything I have read and heard so far.


Why does Bitrebel have 65+ Ignores?
Because Bitrebel says things that some people do not want YOU to hear.
Maged
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1260


View Profile
June 20, 2011, 09:23:20 PM
 #18

I agree that rollback was wrong INITIALLY. However, once the database was leaked, it was clear that none of the trades could actually be trusted. I'm almost suprised that they aren't reverting back further, but I suppose those are losses they can cover on their own. They don't have the millions of dollars it'd take to fix this mess.

toasty
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 81


View Profile
June 20, 2011, 09:23:42 PM
 #19

So the only minus of option three is... it might be impossible. Well, a back of the envelope calculation tell me that it is impossible. Of all the options, I prefer the rollback.

Note that I phrased it as "to the best of their ability".  Nobody wants to see them go under or get screwed.
chihlidog
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 28


View Profile
June 20, 2011, 09:25:13 PM
 #20

I actually agree with OP 100%. This is Mt. Gox's responsibility to make right. Especially in light of numerous complains regarding security well before the plummet. The fact is they were in over their heads and they dont know what to do now. Who are they to roll back a market?

THEY allowed their system to be compromised. They alone. I dont care if it was an auditor. That auditor had authorization to access their files and was acting on authority of the owner. No difference. I have zero pity for Mt. Gox. The only right thing to do is to reimburse the original owner for everything that he lost (since there arent enough bitcoins available, they need to BUY them for him. Period.) and the OP be allowed to retain the bitcoins fairly purchased. If I had money in Mt. Gox at the time, I would have been furiously trying to buy, too. There were plenty of posts here that thought it was a legitimate selloff. The OP did nothing wrong. Period.

Im not sure why anyone would want to, but just in case, I humbly and very gratefully accept donations at: 1Kn6NFFE4EqrhN1pgBDoBQEvSA5c3tdqhi
DamienBlack
Jr. Member
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 56


View Profile
June 20, 2011, 09:25:38 PM
 #21

+ Mt Gox has clearly made several times more revenue (through trading fees) than this incident would cost them to completely absorb.

I have no idea if you are who you so you are. I also agree that it is highly improbably that a single user was storing so many bitcoins on mt gox. However, this statement is not true. You are claiming that Mt Gox has already made millions of dollars and could absorb this loss without going under and taking the entire bitcoin economy with them.

No, I'm not claiming that they could have millions of dollars. But I am claiming that they've made many hundreds or thousands of bitcoins per day. Take the public volume, times their fee, and make a wild guess at how much is moving on the dark pool to add on top of that. If they don't have enough in BTC to cover the entirety of this, they're doing something very very wrong.



They aren't making "hundreds or thousands of bitcoins a day". The volume is usually around $300,000 USD. Times .013 is 3900 dollars. Or about 260 bitcoins a day. That isn't enough.

I trade bitcoin options at https://bitoption.org/ ... Join me.
I play poker at https://betco.in/ ... Join me.
Support the bitcoin economy, what do you do?
Tips: 1NfXhiTFEdKQTdLy49s6DYAP1K7MeFWyao
Synaptic
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 84


View Profile
June 20, 2011, 09:25:49 PM
 #22

You stole 643 btc. Congrats.

Every major exchange breaks trades. Too bad for you, consider yourself lucky if you don't get sued for the 643 btc.

Every major exchange has written policies saying when breaks will happen. MtGox specifically said they weren't a party to the trades, and had no policy for doing so.

I also haven't said what I would do with that 643.


Most exchanges have a general rule about 'clearly erroneous trades' - this is usually defined as 20%+ away from recent activity. Trades at .011 clearly fall under this globally accepted guideline.

Mtgox is charged with running a fair and orderly exchange. That obv did not happen here and he has no choice but to correct it. Again, you have balls asking for the rest after taking 643 btc.

Why couldn't it be a valid trade?

Because you and all your dumbasshole friends here think that BTC could NEVER be crashed by someone who just didn't give a fuck?

You all take your little play money market WAY too seriously...
lemonginger
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 210


firstbits: 121vnq


View Profile
June 20, 2011, 09:25:52 PM
 #23

No, I'm not claiming that they could have millions of dollars. But I am claiming that they've made many hundreds or thousands of bitcoins per day. Take the public volume, times their fee, and make a wild guess at how much is moving on the dark pool to add on top of that. If they don't have enough in BTC to cover the entirety of this, they're doing something very very wrong.

#1) Volume includes dark pool trading
#2) You are not claiming they have millions of dollars available, but you think they could cover the loss of over 300k bitcoins without being made insolvent?
bitrebel
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 364


View Profile
June 20, 2011, 09:26:32 PM
 #24

I actually agree with OP 100%. This is Mt. Gox's responsibility to make right. Especially in light of numerous complains regarding security well before the plummet. The fact is they were in over their heads and they dont know what to do now. Who are they to roll back a market?

THEY allowed their system to be compromised. They alone. I dont care if it was an auditor. That auditor had authorization to access their files and was acting on authority of the owner. No difference. I have zero pity for Mt. Gox. The only right thing to do is to reimburse the original owner for everything that he lost (since there arent enough bitcoins available, they need to BUY them for him. Period.) and the OP be allowed to retain the bitcoins fairly purchased. If I had money in Mt. Gox at the time, I would have been furiously trying to buy, too. There were plenty of posts here that thought it was a legitimate selloff. The OP did nothing wrong. Period.

Agreed

Why does Bitrebel have 65+ Ignores?
Because Bitrebel says things that some people do not want YOU to hear.
relative
Jr. Member
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 56


View Profile
June 20, 2011, 09:26:54 PM
 #25

Every major exchange has written policies saying when breaks will happen. MtGox specifically said they weren't a party to the trades, and had no policy for doing so.

no exchange is party to the trades (except maybe the clearing house of futures exchanges).
this doesn't mean they can't break trades.

the ONLY thing he could claim is that they're not allowed to break trades because there was no policy/agreement. but even that I doubt.

Quote
I also haven't said what I would do with that 643.

you basically admitted that you knew at the time you withdrew the 643 that it was the loot of a hacker.
bitcola
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 210


View Profile
June 20, 2011, 09:27:03 PM
 #26

Bitcoin is hardly a professional currency yet. It's an amateur one.

More of these things can be expected until the pros step in and start running things.


It's like comparing a street full of globalised company owned stores to a kid's fair at a school.

gdrop
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 14


View Profile
June 20, 2011, 09:27:23 PM
 #27

Honestly, I think you should just keep the coins. I personally was sleeping when the crash happened, but as a matter of principle I don't think actual BTC transactions should be reversed once finalized in the chain. Reversing the trades on MtGox's servers, though, is up to the owners, as there aren't actual BTC transactions being added to the chain.

MtGox screwed up though, and they should take the loss.
foggyb
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1344


View Profile
June 20, 2011, 09:27:54 PM
 #28

Executive summary:

1.) "I took advantage of an extraordinary event that turned out to be initiated by a rogue sell order, not legitimate trading."

2.) "Can I keep it? Look, here's why."

No, sorry. To allow the trade to stand would legitimize the attack, is that what you really want? (Besides bitcoins and dollars, I mean.)


+ 1,000
soades
Jr. Member
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 57



View Profile
June 20, 2011, 09:28:10 PM
 #29

When I signed up at Mt.Gox first thing I noticed was lack of user identity security. Definitely left themselves open to abuse.
Insuremeplz
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 113


View Profile
June 20, 2011, 09:29:02 PM
 #30

I almost wish you would have cashed out and would now have much more leverage against MtGox. I wish you luck OP, and think you're in the right
foggyb
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1344


View Profile
June 20, 2011, 09:29:11 PM
 #31

Honestly, I think you should just keep the coins. I personally was sleeping when the crash happened, but as a matter of principle I don't think actual BTC transactions should be reversed once finalized in the chain. Reversing the trades on MtGox's servers, though, is up to the owners, as there aren't actual BTC transactions being added to the chain.

MtGox screwed up though, and they should take the loss.

What would be honest about that?
toasty
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 81


View Profile
June 20, 2011, 09:29:40 PM
 #32

Quote
I also haven't said what I would do with that 643.

you basically admitted that you knew at the time you withdrew the 643 that it was the loot of a hacker.


No, I had no way of knowing what was going on then, and still don't know. At first I thought it'd be safer trying to get a pile of bitcoins off a site if it possibly was hacked, but had absolutely no way of knowing.

myrkul
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 532


FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM


View Profile WWW
June 20, 2011, 09:29:47 PM
 #33

I feel for you, Kevin, I really do. Problem is, this isn't someone making a stupid trade, or even someone trying intentionally to crash the market. In either of those instances, I would support you in keeping not only the 643, but the full 259684. It wasn't though. It was a Hack. Which means that the poor guy whose BTC you got had nothing to do with the trade, which means that he was stolen from.

MtGox allowed the theft, so its their responsibility to fix it, which means returning things to the way they were before the hack.

This means you're out those BTC you didn't get out, And I would return the 643, as well. On the bright side, you get your cash back.

BTC1MYRkuLv4XPBa6bGnYAronz55grPAGcxja
Need Dispute resolution? Public Key ID: 0x11D341CF
No person has the right to initiate force, threat of force, or fraud against another person or their property. VIM VI REPELLERE LICET
Vladimir
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 812


-


View Profile
June 20, 2011, 09:30:06 PM
 #34

Talk to a lawyer, preferably one specialising in securities. Who knows you might get a settlement from mtgox and rest of the community terms and conditions.

You will not find any justice even if you deserve it on the forum.




-
bitrebel
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 364


View Profile
June 20, 2011, 09:30:45 PM
 #35

Quote
I also haven't said what I would do with that 643.

you basically admitted that you knew at the time you withdrew the 643 that it was the loot of a hacker.


No, I had no way of knowing what was going on then, and still don't know. At first I thought it'd be safer trying to get a pile of bitcoins off a site if it possibly was hacked, but had absolutely no way of knowing.



I think you are smart Kevin. That should be rewarded. Not with stolen bitcoins, but first we need proof they were actually "stolen". Otherwise, they are and should be rightfully, yours.

Why does Bitrebel have 65+ Ignores?
Because Bitrebel says things that some people do not want YOU to hear.
cunicula
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 798


Stack-overflow Guru


View Profile WWW
June 20, 2011, 09:31:05 PM
 #36

Kevin, this isn't something that can be decided with forum posts. Get a lawyer and keep your mouth shut in public.

▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁
        AltCoinInternalExperts                Get Your Altcoin Promoted On Social Media       
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
bitrebel
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 364


View Profile
June 20, 2011, 09:32:02 PM
 #37

I feel for you, Kevin, I really do. Problem is, this isn't someone making a stupid trade, or even someone trying intentionally to crash the market. In either of those instances, I would support you in keeping not only the 643, but the full 259684. It wasn't though. It was a Hack. Which means that the poor guy whose BTC you got had nothing to do with the trade, which means that he was stolen from.

MtGox allowed the theft, so its their responsibility to fix it, which means returning things to the way they were before the hack.

This means you're out those BTC you didn't get out, And I would return the 643, as well. On the bright side, you get your cash back.

We have no idea they were hacked, absolutely. We do not know they did not hack themselves.

Why does Bitrebel have 65+ Ignores?
Because Bitrebel says things that some people do not want YOU to hear.
GeniuSxBoY
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 616


View Profile
June 20, 2011, 09:32:37 PM
 #38


Be humble!
chihlidog
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 28


View Profile
June 20, 2011, 09:33:20 PM
 #39

I am astounded at the outpouring of support for MtGox here. Wow. MtGox allowed itself to be compromised, THEY are the ones responsible for settling things financially here. If they werent ready for this possibility, they shouldnt have been in the business.

Im not sure why anyone would want to, but just in case, I humbly and very gratefully accept donations at: 1Kn6NFFE4EqrhN1pgBDoBQEvSA5c3tdqhi
toasty
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 81


View Profile
June 20, 2011, 09:33:31 PM
 #40

Kevin, this isn't something that can be decided with forum posts. Get a lawyer and keep your mouth shut in public.


If I lawyer up, it's game over. The lawyers I talked to said the first thing I'd have to do would be to get an injunction, which would effectively start a run on MtGox's reserves, which I won't do.

If nothing more, I'd like to be a cautionary tale to everyone else and stop the misunderstandings that resulted from Mt Gox's poorly written statement.
relative
Jr. Member
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 56


View Profile
June 20, 2011, 09:33:53 PM
 #41

Kevin, this isn't something that can be decided with forum posts. Get a lawyer and keep your mouth shut in public.


this ^

you can't seriously thing that you'll get the 250k or parts of it by making a forum post, do you?
there is nothing to gain, but there is 643 BTC to loose in case MtGox demands those back and you are making public statements here.
Tx2000
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 182



View Profile
June 20, 2011, 09:35:09 PM
 #42

I honestly can't say if I was in your position, I wouldn't be say the same thing.  And it probably hurts real bad.  I don't even know what solution is the right one - because almost every option is bad for somebody or the concept of btc itself.

gigabytecoin
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 280


View Profile
June 20, 2011, 09:35:22 PM
 #43

Must have been one hell of a few minutes!
myrkul
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 532


FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM


View Profile WWW
June 20, 2011, 09:36:11 PM
 #44

We have no idea they were hacked, absolutely. We do not know they did not hack themselves.

A self-hack is still a hack. What I would like to see is a post from the guy whose account got drained. (verified, 'course.)

BTC1MYRkuLv4XPBa6bGnYAronz55grPAGcxja
Need Dispute resolution? Public Key ID: 0x11D341CF
No person has the right to initiate force, threat of force, or fraud against another person or their property. VIM VI REPELLERE LICET
chihlidog
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 28


View Profile
June 20, 2011, 09:36:43 PM
 #45

Kevin, this isn't something that can be decided with forum posts. Get a lawyer and keep your mouth shut in public.


this ^

you can't seriously thing that you'll get the 250k or parts of it by making a forum post, do you?
there is nothing to gain, but there is 643 BTC to loose in case MtGox demands those back and you are making public statements here.


And if he refuses to give them back??? What are they going to do, sue him? How did any of us know it was a hack. As I stated, there were many forum posts right HERE talking about the "major selloff". People thought Satoshi was getting out and dumping. 90 percent of you would have bought at .01 if you could have. SO Mt Gox should get their coins back bcause they allowed themselves to be compromised?

Someone gets their wallet stolen and the prevailing attitude here is "oh well, should have been more careful", but a site trusted with our financial resources allows themselves to be hacked, and everyone feels bad for them?

Im not sure why anyone would want to, but just in case, I humbly and very gratefully accept donations at: 1Kn6NFFE4EqrhN1pgBDoBQEvSA5c3tdqhi
toasty
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 81


View Profile
June 20, 2011, 09:37:11 PM
 #46

Kevin, this isn't something that can be decided with forum posts. Get a lawyer and keep your mouth shut in public.


this ^

you can't seriously thing that you'll get the 250k or parts of it by making a forum post, do you?
there is nothing to gain, but there is 643 BTC to loose in case MtGox demands those back and you are making public statements here.


If either of us tried that, it would be like scorching the earth behind us. There are very few actions any of us can take that won't cause huge disruptions.
Phil21
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 154


View Profile
June 20, 2011, 09:37:30 PM
 #47

I feel for you, Kevin, I really do. Problem is, this isn't someone making a stupid trade, or even someone trying intentionally to crash the market. In either of those instances, I would support you in keeping not only the 643, but the full 259684. It wasn't though. It was a Hack. Which means that the poor guy whose BTC you got had nothing to do with the trade, which means that he was stolen from.

This keeps getting stated.  Who is this "poor guy" - zero evidence for said "poor guy" having actually ever existed has been posted/made available as far as I'm aware.

If it were this simple, it's an open and shut case.  Kevin's post shows it quite obviously is NOT this simple, unless you believe that a simple password compromised user account held 500,000 bitcoins in it.  I personally do not.  My opinion may change based on more evidence.

No one (well, I'm sure some do) wants to see MtGox fail - but I personally want to know wtf the actual truth is so I can make informed decisions.  Why is this so unreasonable all of a sudden?
Jaime Frontero
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 126


View Profile
June 20, 2011, 09:38:12 PM
 #48

Must have been one hell of a few minutes!

best post of the thread.

can you imagine?
GeniuSxBoY
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 616


View Profile
June 20, 2011, 09:38:28 PM
 #49

Robber steals from a bank.



Robber loses his loot on a chase.



You pick up loot.



You're tracked down.



Loot is not yours to keep.



Simple fucking logic.

Be humble!
Synaptic
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 84


View Profile
June 20, 2011, 09:39:06 PM
 #50

Robber steals from a bank.



Robber loses his loot on a chase.



You pick up loot.



You're tracked down.



Loot is not yours to keep.



Simple fucking logic.

False comparison.
Vladimir
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 812


-


View Profile
June 20, 2011, 09:39:32 PM
 #51

toasty, you, and many others, underestimate resilience of Bitcoin and overestimate it's dependence on mtgox. I mean medium and long term.


-
GeniuSxBoY
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 616


View Profile
June 20, 2011, 09:40:01 PM
 #52

Yeh... really false.

Be humble!
Clipse
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 504


View Profile
June 20, 2011, 09:41:51 PM
 #53

Robber steals from a bank.



Robber loses his loot on a chase.



You pick up loot.



You're tracked down.



Loot is not yours to keep.



Simple fucking logic.

False comparison.

Coming from a bitter eddy like yourself, I think that synopsis is spot on.

This comes down to theft, and the right thing to do is returning the stolen goods. As much as it pains anyone who scored from it.

If the goods isnt returned, this would tarnish the bitcoin community even more having it out and about that its fine to steal coins since there is no means to return stolen funds.

An exchange, specificly this situation, just proves that in some cases there is atleast some recourse for stolen funds.

...In the land of the stale, the man with one share is king... >> Clipse

We pay miners at 130% PPS | Signup here : Bonus PPS Pool (Please read OP to understand the current process)
bitrebel
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 364


View Profile
June 20, 2011, 09:42:11 PM
 #54

This is all a bunch of bullshit.

Kevin stepped up. Now it's time for the bitcoin loser to step up, and if no bitcoin loser shows to claim the loss, then it was Mt Gox all this time. Who owned the 500,000 bitcoins?

I think it was Mt Gox!

They either owned them first, or stole them and then tried to sell off, and buy back, but Kevin got half of them. Who else got the others, exactly in their orders? Could it have been Mt Gox that got many of them?


Why does Bitrebel have 65+ Ignores?
Because Bitrebel says things that some people do not want YOU to hear.
epi 1:10,000
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 154


View Profile
June 20, 2011, 09:44:50 PM
 #55

Toasty the simple reality is if you choose to keep the bitcoins you will probably use all of them to pay for legal fees in a civil case, not to mention posibbly defending yourself in a criminal case.  This could very easily be in excess of $200,000 and there is no guarantee you would win and you would most likely loose one of the cases.  What is your risk tolerance?
Synaptic
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 84


View Profile
June 20, 2011, 09:45:29 PM
 #56

toasty, you, and many others, underestimate resilience of Bitcoin and overestimate it's dependence on mtgox. I mean medium and long term.



Gosh, you inspire me Vladimir.

I don't agree with you, I think you're utterly banal, but damn is your tenacity inspiring.
Clipse
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 504


View Profile
June 20, 2011, 09:46:01 PM
 #57

This is all a bunch of bullshit.

Kevin stepped up. Now it's time for the bitcoin loser to step up, and if no bitcoin loser shows to claim the loss, then it was Mt Gox all this time. Who owned the 500,000 bitcoins?

I think it was Mt Gox!

They either owned them first, or stole them and then tried to sell off, and buy back, but Kevin got half of them. Who else got the others, exactly in their orders? Could it have been Mt Gox that got many of them?



I would also like the bitcoin "loser" to step up before you swallow kevins cock.

Its impossible for me to understand the logic here that because its such a huge amount of potential booty the arguments being made is attempting to justify keeping the funds.

I will stand in the corner for a second and say this, if it is some elaborate scheme by mtgox then it should be outted however if someone steps up and explains just like kevin did in this thread, that he is the bitcoin "loser" who will believe him? None of you who stand behind kevin and the stolen booty would believe it to be the bitcoin "loser" and conspiracies will fly about that mtgox is posing as the loser.

How do you think this could be proven? It cant.

...In the land of the stale, the man with one share is king... >> Clipse

We pay miners at 130% PPS | Signup here : Bonus PPS Pool (Please read OP to understand the current process)
relative
Jr. Member
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 56


View Profile
June 20, 2011, 09:46:11 PM
 #58

Quote
I think it was Mt Gox!
I think it was many accounts and Mt Gox doesnt want to admin that.
wouldnt be the first time of the last few days.

Quote
They either owned them first, or stole them and then tried to sell off, and buy back, but Kevin got half of them.
can you explain their motive? I see no profits in a market crash besides commission and volume, and that isnt very much.
toasty
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 81


View Profile
June 20, 2011, 09:46:54 PM
 #59

toasty, you, and many others, underestimate resilience of Bitcoin and overestimate it's dependence on mtgox. I mean medium and long term.



I probably have way more faith than you believe. But I couldn't live with myself if my own legal actions resulted in funds getting frozen which would affect even more innocent third parties.
Alex Thornton
Jr. Member
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 47


View Profile
June 20, 2011, 09:47:03 PM
 #60

Executive summary:

1.) "I took advantage of an extraordinary event that turned out to be initiated by a rogue sell order, not legitimate trading."

2.) "Can I keep it? Look, here's why."

No, sorry. To allow the trade to stand would legitimize the attack, is that what you really want? (Besides bitcoins and dollars, I mean.)


+∞
myrkul
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 532


FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM


View Profile WWW
June 20, 2011, 09:48:13 PM
 #61

No one (well, I'm sure some do) wants to see MtGox fail - but I personally want to know wtf the actual truth is so I can make informed decisions.  Why is this so unreasonable all of a sudden?

I hear you. I smell herring, myself. Remember that HUGE consolidation last week? I want some facts, but I support reversing this whole fiasco for one simple reason: It was a fiasco. Kevin will be out his 'Profits', MtGox will take a loss, And it sets everything back to the way it was before it went nuts.

BTC1MYRkuLv4XPBa6bGnYAronz55grPAGcxja
Need Dispute resolution? Public Key ID: 0x11D341CF
No person has the right to initiate force, threat of force, or fraud against another person or their property. VIM VI REPELLERE LICET
Synaptic
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 84


View Profile
June 20, 2011, 09:48:21 PM
 #62

This is all a bunch of bullshit.

Kevin stepped up. Now it's time for the bitcoin loser to step up, and if no bitcoin loser shows to claim the loss, then it was Mt Gox all this time. Who owned the 500,000 bitcoins?

I think it was Mt Gox!

They either owned them first, or stole them and then tried to sell off, and buy back, but Kevin got half of them. Who else got the others, exactly in their orders? Could it have been Mt Gox that got many of them?



And isn't it odd that no-one has stepped up to comment about this theft of their assets?

I guess that's the power of bitcoin, all anonymous and shit.

Could have been Al Quaida, or some REALLY prolific child pornography collector...

Who knows?

Could have been an abandoned account from when bitcoins were worth $0.01c that was just forgotten about...

BUT TAKE IT TO COURT, BEST ADVICE.
toasty
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 81


View Profile
June 20, 2011, 09:50:14 PM
 #63

Robber steals from a bank.



Robber loses his loot on a chase.



You pick up loot.



You're tracked down.



Loot is not yours to keep.



Simple fucking logic.

The problem is, that's the story they're trying to tell, but have offered no proof of any "theft" happening, want to play police and fix it themselves, and their story has holes in it. Their solution screws over many, and the problem was one they allowed to happen.

Also, nobody tracked me down. I identified myself immediately to MagicalTux the moment he was active on IRC.

Clipse
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 504


View Profile
June 20, 2011, 09:50:20 PM
 #64

This is all a bunch of bullshit.

Kevin stepped up. Now it's time for the bitcoin loser to step up, and if no bitcoin loser shows to claim the loss, then it was Mt Gox all this time. Who owned the 500,000 bitcoins?

I think it was Mt Gox!

They either owned them first, or stole them and then tried to sell off, and buy back, but Kevin got half of them. Who else got the others, exactly in their orders? Could it have been Mt Gox that got many of them?



And isn't it odd that no-one has steeped up to comment about this?

I guess that's the power of bitcoin, all anonymous and shit.

Could have been Al Quaida, or some REALLY prolific child pornography collector...

Who knows?

Could have been an abandoned account from when bitcoins were worth $0.01c that was just forgotten about...

BUT TAKE IT TO COURT, BEST ADVICE.

Shit, it could have been you. Considering how anti-bitcoin you have been, I think you are the hacker.

Prove me wrong, conspiracies activate.

...In the land of the stale, the man with one share is king... >> Clipse

We pay miners at 130% PPS | Signup here : Bonus PPS Pool (Please read OP to understand the current process)
bitrebel
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 364


View Profile
June 20, 2011, 09:50:56 PM
 #65

If Kevin does not go after Mt Gox, even if it disrupts trading, who gives a shit? If he does not go after them, and they are guilty of anything, then what's to stop them from doing this again? EVEN BIGGER!

Does anyone remember this?  - STOCKGENERATION.COM

http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/8.09/stock.html


Why does Bitrebel have 65+ Ignores?
Because Bitrebel says things that some people do not want YOU to hear.
OgNasty
Donator
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2394


Irrational Exuberance


View Profile WWW
June 20, 2011, 09:51:57 PM
 #66

My guess is that the selling account that was hacked was the mtgox owner's account itself.  If you're thinking along those lines that should answer a few questions.

Who has that much money?  The exchange that profits from every trade.

Why would they roll back the trades?  It was their account that was selling at $0.01.  

How did they decide to break their own rules so quickly and make it public?  Their own money was at stake.

Good luck getting them to not reverse the trades.  That would probably put them out of business and negatively effect the bitcoin itself.  I had a standing order at $0.01 and managed to pick up $14 worth of coins at that price.  But even I realize that these trades must be rolled back in order to prevent a loss of confidence by the investor group.  Anyone who deals with real trading will tell you that.  I also lost out big when they reversed trades on the NYSE after the flash crash 15 months ago... But I understand why these things happen.  Get over it and be glad that you got the BTC you did out of the market.  I wish I had been as smart, but I got greedy and withdrew nothing.  People like you who did get $ out of the system will probably cause mtgox to have some losses, but that is probably what they deserve for allowing this to happen.  At the end of the day, you made a little easy money and mtgox will restore confidence and keep the bitcoin economy alive.  It's a win-win.  

My $0.02.

BITSLER                 ▄███
               ▄████▀
             ▄████▀
           ▄████▀  ▄██▄
         ▄████▀    ▀████▄
       ▄████▀        ▀████▄
     ▄████▀            ▀████▄
   ▄████▀                ▀████▄
 ▄████▀ ▄████▄      ▄████▄ ▀████▄
█████   ██████      ██████   █████
 ▀████▄ ▀████▀      ▀████▀ ▄████▀
   ▀████▄                ▄████▀
     ▀████▄            ▄████▀
       ▀████▄        ▄████▀
         ▀████▄    ▄████▀
           ▀████▄▄████▀
             ▀██████▀
               ▀▀▀▀
▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▄            
▄▄▄▄▀▀▀▀    ▄▄█▄▄ ▀▀▄         
▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▄      
█  ▀▄▄  ▀█▀▀ ▄      ▀████   ▀▀▄   
█ █▄  ▀▄   ▀████       ▀▀ ▄██▄ ▀▀▄
▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀
█  ▀▀       ▀▄▄ ▀████      ▄▄▄▀▀▀  █
█            ▄ ▀▄    ▄▄▄▀▀▀   ▄▄  █
▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀
█ ▄▄   ███   ▀██  █           ▀▀  █ 
█ ███  ▀██       █        ▄▄      █ 
▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀  
▀▄            █        ▀▀      █  
▀▀▄   ███▄  █   ▄▄          █   
▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀    
▀▀▄   █   ▀▀▄▄▄▀▀▀         
▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄█▄▄▀▀▀▀              
              ▄▄▄██████▄▄▄
          ▄▄████████████████▄▄
        ▄██████▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀██████▄
▄     ▄█████▀             ▀█████▄
██▄▄ █████▀                ▀█████
 ████████            ▄██      █████
  ████████▄         ███▀       ████▄
  █████████▀▀     ▄███▀        █████
   █▀▀▀          █████         █████
     ▄▄▄         ████          █████
   █████          ▀▀           ████▀
    █████                     █████
     █████▄                 ▄█████
      ▀█████▄             ▄█████▀
        ▀██████▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄██████▀
          ▀▀████████████████▀▀
              ▀▀▀██████▀▀▀
            ▄▄▄███████▄▄▄
         ▄█▀▀▀ ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ ▀▀▀█▄
       █▀▀ ▄█████████████▄ ▀▀█
     █▀▀ ███████████████████ ▀▀█
    █▀ ███████████████████████ ▀█
   █▀ ███████████████▀▀ ███████ ▀█
 ▄█▀ ██████████████▀      ▀█████ ▀█▄
███ ███████████▀▀            ▀▀██ ███
███ ███████▀▀                     ███
███ ▀▀▀▀                          ███
▀██▄                             ▄██▀
  ▀█▄                            ▀▀
    █▄       █▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄█
     █▄      ▀█████████▀
      ▀█▄      ▀▀▀▀▀▀▀
        ▀▀█▄▄  ▄▄▄
            ▀▀█████
[]
Synaptic
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 84


View Profile
June 20, 2011, 09:52:57 PM
 #67

This is all a bunch of bullshit.

Kevin stepped up. Now it's time for the bitcoin loser to step up, and if no bitcoin loser shows to claim the loss, then it was Mt Gox all this time. Who owned the 500,000 bitcoins?

I think it was Mt Gox!

They either owned them first, or stole them and then tried to sell off, and buy back, but Kevin got half of them. Who else got the others, exactly in their orders? Could it have been Mt Gox that got many of them?



And isn't it odd that no-one has steeped up to comment about this?

I guess that's the power of bitcoin, all anonymous and shit.

Could have been Al Quaida, or some REALLY prolific child pornography collector...

Who knows?

Could have been an abandoned account from when bitcoins were worth $0.01c that was just forgotten about...

BUT TAKE IT TO COURT, BEST ADVICE.

Shit, it could have been you. Considering how anti-bitcoin you have been, I think you are the hacker.

Prove me wrong, conspiracies activate.

You got me.

Come claim your prize, 10 billion Linden Do...I mean Floo...I mean Tuli...I mean Bitcoins.
tgeo
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 19


View Profile
June 20, 2011, 09:55:29 PM
 #68

I just wanna say: Everyone who is saying he stole that 643 btc... Shut up, youre just jelly.
zpinto
Jr. Member
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 58


View Profile
June 20, 2011, 09:55:47 PM
 #69

WTF??? why does everyone keep thinking that it was one users bitcoins that were stolen?

It was definitely all our bitcoins that mtgox had in one account!

I remember a few days before, people saying that some big bitcoin movements on bitcoin monitor were from mtgox, and the quantity being moved was around 400 000 to 500 000 bitcoins.

No single user lost that quantity, it was our coins, from all of us!
unemployed
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 70


Try out Bitcoin Tool v1.1 - over 220 installs


View Profile WWW
June 20, 2011, 09:56:13 PM
 #70

1. MtGox will do whatever they want.
2. Numbers displayed on their website are not trades.
3. Nobody will sue MtGox, because who here can write a lawsuit in hiragana.
4. Bitcoins are not currency and formally have no value. Your wallet with bitcoins is just a file filled with some bits on your computer. Mr policeman, someone stole by bits! They really were here i swear. They were worth $20 each.
Okay everything is gonna be all right. Here put on the jacket we have for you.




Bitcoin Tool - browser extension for Firefox, Chrome and Internet Explorer
141HiFa6pek3uM32LpRe3gXraETV1fViWC
http://i.imgur.com/4OT19.png    <- Bitcoin Tool recognizes bitcoin addresses on websites, and links them to blockexplorer.
epi 1:10,000
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 154


View Profile
June 20, 2011, 09:57:47 PM
 #71


The problem is, that's the story they're trying to tell, but have offered no proof of any "theft" happening, want to play police and fix it themselves, and their story has holes in it. Their solution screws over many, and the problem was one they allowed to happen.

Also, nobody tracked me down. I identified myself immediately to MagicalTux the moment he was active on IRC.


Have no doubt...   MtGox will use the full weight of civil and criminal law to retrieve what it believes it is owed.  Cutting off communication with you is the first legal step.

Edit: Never mind I got the decimal place wrong I thought you withdrew 64,300 not 643 BTC.  643 BTC is not enough money to get lawyers involved.
Edit:  Ops MagicalTux thinks you are involved w/ the hacking.....   GET A LAWYER!!!!!!!
flug
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 280



View Profile
June 20, 2011, 09:58:34 PM
 #72

toasty, you, and many others, underestimate resilience of Bitcoin and overestimate it's dependence on mtgox. I mean medium and long term.

+1
Synaptic
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 84


View Profile
June 20, 2011, 09:58:57 PM
 #73


The problem is, that's the story they're trying to tell, but have offered no proof of any "theft" happening, want to play police and fix it themselves, and their story has holes in it. Their solution screws over many, and the problem was one they allowed to happen.

Also, nobody tracked me down. I identified myself immediately to MagicalTux the moment he was active on IRC.


Have no doubt...   MtGox will use the full weight of civil and criminal law to retrieve what it believes it is owed.  Cutting off communication with you is the first legal step.

Lol, I love you people like brothers.  You are the light of my life until I get bored here.

I just, can;t express what joy you bring to my life with your innocence.

It's like a pack of fucking kittens up in here.
toasty
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 81


View Profile
June 20, 2011, 09:59:37 PM
 #74


The problem is, that's the story they're trying to tell, but have offered no proof of any "theft" happening, want to play police and fix it themselves, and their story has holes in it. Their solution screws over many, and the problem was one they allowed to happen.

Also, nobody tracked me down. I identified myself immediately to MagicalTux the moment he was active on IRC.


Have no doubt...   MtGox will use the full weight of civil and criminal law to retrieve what it believes it is owed.  Cutting off communication with you is the first legal step.

They haven't even asked me to return those coins. You are generally required to pursue things out of the legal system first, and only use it as a last resort.

GeniuSxBoY
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 616


View Profile
June 20, 2011, 10:00:20 PM
 #75

Lol, the 643 the dude "stole" aren't his.



If you buy a TV from a thief, the TV is still not yours and you don't get your money back, if the TV is found.


Similarly, If someone steals YOUR TV and sells it to your neighbor, you're not going to throw your hands up in the air and say "ohhhh! you're right. you own it now!! how stupid of me"

Be humble!
relative
Jr. Member
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 56


View Profile
June 20, 2011, 10:00:53 PM
 #76


If either of us tried that, it would be like scorching the earth behind us. There are very few actions any of us can take that won't cause huge disruptions.

I wouldn't rule out that you'll get sued for the 643.
it's just a matter of their "professionalism", if they have the means to pull off a lawsuit in another country or just 3 people in a basement.

if I was in your shoes I'd just shut up.
MeSarah
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 154


View Profile
June 20, 2011, 10:02:37 PM
 #77

My 2 cents. I say that Kevin keep the trade. I then say press charges on Kevin for reciept of stolen property. Its clear that he knows its stolen, now.

If I sell you a stolen gun so you may protect your home and you use it to shoot an intruder, do you think that you wont be charged with mere possession of stolen property? Of course you would. If you bought a stolen car and didnt know it was stolen and you got stop by the police do you think you would be going to jail? Of course you would. Even if your only the passenger. The law (in the USA) doesnt care if you knew the item in question was stolen. It only cares that it is merely in the possession.

So Kevin, I have some questions for you.

1) If your car was stolen and resold 10 times, would you still want your car back?
2) How long of a jail term is worth the btc you bought?

With that said, MtGox does have some culpability. You might look into getting a layer, but most layers will want payment upfront.

If it were me, I would have little issue returning the btc, tho it might be painful, I know I would want my stolen items back.

60 GH/s BFL Single SC - Pre-Order Yours Today!
`````` Only $1299.99 - butterflylabs.com ``````
dayfall
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 312



View Profile
June 20, 2011, 10:04:11 PM
 #78

Kevin, are you going to join the chat on OnlyOneTV tonight?  That will be more enlightening than last night's show.  (Where all we learned was that the auditor was a "she")
toasty
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 81


View Profile
June 20, 2011, 10:05:11 PM
 #79


If either of us tried that, it would be like scorching the earth behind us. There are very few actions any of us can take that won't cause huge disruptions.

I wouldn't rule out that you'll get sued for the 643.
it's just a matter of their "professionalism", if they have the means to pull off a lawsuit in another country or just 3 people in a basement.

if I was in your shoes I'd just shut up.

I had around $3000 USD in the account before this started. They valued the bitcoins I received at $1000 when they were sent. I still had a positive cash balance when trading was halted, too. Both of us could be making demands of each other right now, and I don't think that's in our best interests.
Maged
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1260


View Profile
June 20, 2011, 10:05:46 PM
 #80

It's quite possible that the person who was hacked still has no idea that it was them. For all we know, they were asleep when this happened and didn't have email notifications enabled. There's no way for them to login to MtGox to check.

Also: If you had this kind of money on MtGox, would you admit it? Although the user database was leaked, the balance sheet WASN'T. They'd quickly become a target on other sites if people knew what account's password they specifically had to crack to make big bucks.

chihlidog
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 28


View Profile
June 20, 2011, 10:07:07 PM
 #81

You people making the stolen property analogies are leaving out one critical factor. The middleman.

Let's say you go to a used car dealer, and you purchase a vehicle. Later it comes to light that the car was stolen. Would you then give the vehicle back? No. You wouldnt. The dealer would be responsible. Simple as that. The dealer would have to re-imburse either the original victim, or give the car back and re-coup the buyer. It doesnt matter what price the car was, if I bought it for 5 dollars, it was an agreement made with a professional organization who decided to get into the business of selling these things.

Im not sure why anyone would want to, but just in case, I humbly and very gratefully accept donations at: 1Kn6NFFE4EqrhN1pgBDoBQEvSA5c3tdqhi
piuk
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 910



View Profile WWW
June 20, 2011, 10:08:18 PM
 #82

toasty, just take the money and run I bet mt.gox would do the same if given half the chance.

relative
Jr. Member
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 56


View Profile
June 20, 2011, 10:09:54 PM
 #83


I had around $3000 USD in the account before this started. They valued the bitcoins I received at $1000 when they were sent. I still had a positive cash balance when trading was halted, too. Both of us could be making demands of each other right now, and I don't think that's in our best interests.


I don't wanna argue the case with you.
all I'm saying: public statements when you MIGHT get sued are never a good idea, especially when you have nothing to gain.
myrkul
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 532


FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM


View Profile WWW
June 20, 2011, 10:10:47 PM
 #84

You people making the stolen property analogies are leaving out one critical factor. The middleman.

Let's say you go to a used car dealer, and you purchase a vehicle. Later it comes to light that the car was stolen. Would you then give the vehicle back? No. You wouldnt. The dealer would be responsible. Simple as that.

No, you'd lose the car, You'd be lucky to get your money back, and the dealer would go to jail for receiving and selling stolen property.

I'd say Kevin is getting off easy here, he's getting all his money back, and may end up +643 BTC.

BTC1MYRkuLv4XPBa6bGnYAronz55grPAGcxja
Need Dispute resolution? Public Key ID: 0x11D341CF
No person has the right to initiate force, threat of force, or fraud against another person or their property. VIM VI REPELLERE LICET
chihlidog
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 28


View Profile
June 20, 2011, 10:11:01 PM
 #85

If the dealer could prove he didnt know the car was stolen, he likely wouldnt go to jail.

Im not sure why anyone would want to, but just in case, I humbly and very gratefully accept donations at: 1Kn6NFFE4EqrhN1pgBDoBQEvSA5c3tdqhi
martin
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 150



View Profile WWW
June 20, 2011, 10:11:26 PM
 #86

even I realize that these trades must be rolled back in order to prevent a loss of confidence by the investor group.

mtgox will restore confidence and keep the bitcoin economy alive.  It's a win-win.

I'll tell you what causes a loss of confidence: an exchange that takes arbitrary actions which it never specified in its user agreement to protect itself.

I got all of my dollars and bitcoins of of mtgox a few weeks ago. I've been generally unimpressed by the standard of mtgox software ever since it was first released, and this whole hacking fandango came as no surprise to me unfortunately.

With that said, MtGox does have some culpability.

What's with so many people loving mtgox? they have "some responsibility" for writing crappy software, getting hacked via a dodgy auditor and getting the entire contents of the exchange sold off in 5 minutes? You're right, they do have the tiniest smidgeon of responsibility there...

toasty
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 81


View Profile
June 20, 2011, 10:11:40 PM
 #87


I had around $3000 USD in the account before this started. They valued the bitcoins I received at $1000 when they were sent. I still had a positive cash balance when trading was halted, too. Both of us could be making demands of each other right now, and I don't think that's in our best interests.


I don't wanna argue the case with you.
all I'm saying: public statements when you MIGHT get sued are never a good idea, especially when you have nothing to gain.

I also have very little to lose. If it really did come down to it, and I was forced to give up the 643 BTC, it would suck, but I would move on. I can't think of anything they could possibly sue over beyond this, and if they tried it they'd definitely look like the bad guys here.
Desu
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 28



View Profile
June 20, 2011, 10:11:41 PM
 #88

Oh Wow.

Tip me?
1KBuL4At3kKEsBbDwAqKa16CG4nbyjosdD
That's right, I'm a girl on the Interwebz
http://flipforbits.com/?id=1570
Spend cheaply, Win More. : ]
tymothy
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 224


View Profile
June 20, 2011, 10:11:46 PM
 #89

You people making the stolen property analogies are leaving out one critical factor. The middleman.

Let's say you go to a used car dealer, and you purchase a vehicle. Later it comes to light that the car was stolen. Would you then give the vehicle back? No. You wouldnt. The dealer would be responsible. Simple as that.

The police would seize your vehicle if they were aware of the situation. If you didn't know it was stolen, you wouldn't be charged with any crime.
dutt
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 111



View Profile
June 20, 2011, 10:11:58 PM
 #90

Very good post OP, I completely agree.
As I said here the rollback punishes the people who stood up and did the right (heroic) thing.

Next time the market drops there will be less incentive to step up and buy:
1) They could lose if the market keeps going down for a long time.
2) They could lose if it was a short term selloff which then would be undone by a rollback.

I know the rollback is a rare occasion, but so was this crash, what if the next crash less people will stand up? Just roll it back again? Where do you draw the line.

BitQuestr (BitCoinWorldMarket)
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 76



View Profile
June 20, 2011, 10:13:58 PM
 #91

No where did I hear Kevin say "I should get to keep them all!"

In fact he is speaking out primarily because he personal account contradicts MtGox side of things.

This is not going to be solved on an internet forum. I personally can't claim to know anything about the truth.

However MtGox has established itself as a reputable business within our community. They do have records of all the trades, where the transfers came, and their own transfers. Much of this can be corroborated by independent sources and even within the bitcoin blocks themselves.

I do think that the only way MtGox will repair the trust lost from their investors and this community as well as quell any stupid conspiracies is to bring in an independent financial auditor or forensic investigator. Yes I know this is what caused the problem in the first place, THAT auditor deserves to be sued nine ways till sunday. However instead of a general audit this particular incident needs to be investigated and explained in detail.

There are just too many questions everyone has and it at this point is just too early to have all the information.

Let MtGox do a thorough investigation, let an independent investigator in (with tighter security controls in place), and lets all reserve judgement until the verifiable facts come out.

onesalt
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 518


Presale Starts on 30th of November


View Profile
June 20, 2011, 10:14:47 PM
 #92

So if suddenly bitcoin clients broke and everyone gained 99999btc you'd be fine with keeping those bitcoins then right?


         ▄▄███████████▄▄
      ▄█████▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀█████▄
    ▄███▀▀   ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄   ▀▀███▄
   ███▀  ▄▄███████████▄▄  ▀███
  ███  ▄█████████████████▄  ███
 ███  ███▄▄          ▀█████  ███
███  ███████  █████▄▄  █████  ███
███  █████▀▀  ▀▀██████  ████  ███
███  █████      ██████  ████  ███
███  █████▄▄  ▄▄██████  ████  ███
███  ███████  █████▀▀  █████  ███
 ███  ███▀▀          ▄█████  ███
  ███  ▀█████████████████▀  ███
   ███▄  ▀▀███████████▀▀  ▄███
    ▀███▄▄   ▀▀▀▀▀▀▀   ▄▄███▀
      ▀█████▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄█████▀
         ▀▀███████████▀▀
.DARICO.
    █ ██
  
  █  ██
 █  ██
   ██
██
   ██
 █  ██
  █  ██
  
    █ ██

██ █
   
 ██  █
  ██  █
   ██
    ██
   ██
  ██  █
 ██  █
   
██ █
Phil21
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 154


View Profile
June 20, 2011, 10:15:05 PM
 #93

All this talk of theft and zero evidence an actual theft took place.

The system should be rolled back (imo).  But the actual story needs to come out, someone already said it better than I could have - my belief based on all the evidence is this was MtGox's actual account, not a users.  It is really the only plausible scenario that makes logical sense, based on the evidence available to us.

Does this mean a rollback should not happen?  IMO no!  But it means we're being lied to.  Why?

And seriously, people actually care about the 700 coins taken out that are likely to be given back when this is all resolved?  Man you guys focus on the wrong stuff.
TraderTimm
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2030



View Profile
June 20, 2011, 10:16:27 PM
 #94

What you non-trading goofballs keep missing is the trade was fraudulent to begin with.

The rest is just bickering over who keeps a pot of gold that fell out of the sky.

Doesn't matter either way, the trades get rolled back and this thread will disappear under the newest wave of trollbait and ranting like usual. Just the way it is.

fortitudinem multis - catenum regit omnia
Gandlaf
Jr. Member
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 59


View Profile
June 20, 2011, 10:17:45 PM
 #95

Does anyone still remember how MtGox handled the last situation where there was a large amount at stake for MtGox?

http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=3712.0

That guy explained himself, was hounded by the community, MtGox barely bothered to respond, made some outlandish claims, froze funds and rapidly moved the whole operation to a different jurisdiction (Japan) after the guy finaly decided to get lawyers involved.

MtGox promised to inform the community! No news yet, and it´s been 6 months!

Bitcoin donations: 1hWi34by8KRLEh4san5Eotz5WzU3AJZA5
cschmitz
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 98


View Profile
June 20, 2011, 10:19:32 PM
 #96

Executive summary:

1.) "I took advantage of an extraordinary event that turned out to be initiated by a rogue sell order, not legitimate trading."

2.) "Can I keep it? Look, here's why."

No, sorry. To allow the trade to stand would legitimize the attack, is that what you really want? (Besides bitcoins and dollars, I mean.)


QFT.

Kevin, cry me a river and troll elsewhere.

proud 5.x gh/s miner. tips welcome at 1A132BPnYMrgYdDaRyLpRrLQU4aG1WLRtd
malavita
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 93



View Profile
June 20, 2011, 10:20:22 PM
 #97

toasty, you, and many others, underestimate resilience of Bitcoin and overestimate it's dependence on mtgox. I mean medium and long term.




Amen!

Somebody's gotta finance this revolution - you can help by donating supplies, ammo, field hospital beds or simply BTCs here: 1QBNASECM8z2LLojkqZH3s2F8Ur7nhafNc
martin
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 150



View Profile WWW
June 20, 2011, 10:22:36 PM
 #98

Does anyone still remember how MtGox handled the last situation where there was a large amount at stake for MtGox?

http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=3712.0

That guy explained himself, was hounded by the community, MtGox barely bothered to respond, made some outlandish claims, froze funds and rapidly moved the whole operation to a different jurisdiction (Japan) after the guy finaly decided to get lawyers involved.

MtGox promised to inform the community! No news yet, and it´s been 6 months!

Wow, my trust for mtgox just went a little lower, didn't know that was even possible any more.

Any news from Baron on if he ever got his money back?

aral
Jr. Member
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 42


View Profile
June 20, 2011, 10:25:43 PM
 #99

the trade was fraudulent to begin with.

Fine.  In that case the trade should be rolled back and the BTC returned.  But I'd insist on seeing the evidence.

When you talk about fat finger trades and so on, that is missing the fact that there are no T&Cs that anybody signed up to, the market is unregulated and the rules that apply on Wall Street do not apply to mt. gox.
MeSarah
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 154


View Profile
June 20, 2011, 10:28:41 PM
 #100

You people making the stolen property analogies are leaving out one critical factor. The middleman.

Let's say you go to a used car dealer, and you purchase a vehicle. Later it comes to light that the car was stolen. Would you then give the vehicle back? No. You wouldnt. The dealer would be responsible. Simple as that. The dealer would have to re-imburse either the original victim, or give the car back and re-coup the buyer. It doesnt matter what price the car was, if I bought it for 5 dollars, it was an agreement made with a professional organization who decided to get into the business of selling these things.

Your wrong. I know someone how bought a stolen vehicle and they lost all their money and the vehicle. The dealer closed it doors. What do you do now? Sue the person whos vehicle was stole to get your money back? You mean in a theft you would want your items back?

60 GH/s BFL Single SC - Pre-Order Yours Today!
`````` Only $1299.99 - butterflylabs.com ``````
Rodyland
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 499


View Profile
June 20, 2011, 10:30:06 PM
 #101

I would also like the bitcoin "loser" to step up

I'm Spartacus!  I mean, "the bitcoin loser".

Tongue

Beware the weak hands!
1NcL6Mjm4qeiYYi2rpoCtQopPrH4PyKfUC
GPG ID: E3AA41E3
tymothy
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 224


View Profile
June 20, 2011, 10:30:32 PM
 #102

What's with so many people loving mtgox? they have "some responsibility" for writing crappy software, getting hacked via a dodgy auditor and getting the entire contents of the exchange sold off in 5 minutes? You're right, they do have the tiniest smidgeon of responsibility there...
[/quote

The person whose account was hacked (if it was one person) is entitled to their Bitcoins and it's MtGox's responsibility to provide that to him. Kevin did nothing wrong making a large purchase of bitcoins, but now that he KNOWs the bitcoins were stolen, he's possessing stolen property, which can be a felony. The fact that MtGox's account was hacked makes all the difference here, as it makes the bitcoins which were traded stolen property.
chihlidog
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 28


View Profile
June 20, 2011, 10:31:46 PM
 #103

You people making the stolen property analogies are leaving out one critical factor. The middleman.

Let's say you go to a used car dealer, and you purchase a vehicle. Later it comes to light that the car was stolen. Would you then give the vehicle back? No. You wouldnt. The dealer would be responsible. Simple as that. The dealer would have to re-imburse either the original victim, or give the car back and re-coup the buyer. It doesnt matter what price the car was, if I bought it for 5 dollars, it was an agreement made with a professional organization who decided to get into the business of selling these things.

Your wrong. I know someone how bought a stolen vehicle and they lost all their money and the vehicle. The dealer closed it doors. What do you do now? Sue the person whos vehicle was stole to get your money back? You mean in a theft you would want your items back?

The dealer could be sued in civil court. Yes, not existing anymore presents a problem, however in this case Mt Gox is still around and should be reimbursing the original account.

Im not sure why anyone would want to, but just in case, I humbly and very gratefully accept donations at: 1Kn6NFFE4EqrhN1pgBDoBQEvSA5c3tdqhi
Phil21
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 154


View Profile
June 20, 2011, 10:34:46 PM
 #104

Alright.. so amdist all the wailing and gnashing of teeth I've yet to see anyone propose an actual solution to this problem, that is not outlandish and ridiculous (e.g. laywering up - no one wins here.)

So, I propose the following.  Full disclosure:  I personally know Kevin through mutual colleagues, and occassionally (2-3 times a year?) speak with him via AIM about various nerdy projects we're working on.  This is the extent of my personal relationship with him.  Oh, we at one point (5 years or so ago?) repaired a broken solenoid in a pinball machine together.


Kevin,

You say in your post that you are more concerned about the community and future growth of Bitcoin rather than your own pocketbook.  Many here obviously dispute this claim, and for good reason are unlikely to believe you.

Given this, would you agree to a panel of senior community members (chosen at large by the community as a whole) to become a panel for arbitration between yourself and MtGox?  Lets call it 5 senior well-respected members, who both MtGox, yourself, and the community can all trust.

Kevin will submit his story, which he pretty much already did it seems.  MtGox will tell their side, and provide confidential information needed to verify it to these 5 panel members.

These 5 members will decide the best course of action in relation to your specific situation with the following guidelines given to them:
* The primary consideration is what is best for the community as a whole
* Any solution will not bankrupt or otherwise substantially impact MtGox's operational capabilities

This would accomplish the following, based on your +/- system:
+ Gives the community some semblance of transparency for a MAJOR issue with the bitcoin market as a whole (as it exists today, at least)
+ Allows both sides to tell their story in relative confidence, thus protecting any major run on markets or mtgox due to new info being released that may be damaging.
+ Keeps this situation out of the court system, where it really has no business belonging and everyone is a loser
+ Quick resolution if MtGox agrees to this, I can't imagine it taking more than a few hours?
- Random panel of 5 "Internet Dudes" are deciding your fate
- You have a very substantial chance of being ordered to give back the BTC you withdrew, should the community members deem it appropriate

I believe this solution, with of course some tweaks to make both parties feel comfortable can accomplish everyone's *stated* goals here.  It will allow Kevin to know what happened, so he knows he's not being completely taken advantage of, it will allow the community to gain transparency and show to outsiders we can resolve problems in an expediant and reasonable manner.  Additionally MtGox will be able to end the rampant speculation as to their activities, and at least for me personally I'd regain a lot of confidence in their exchange.

Does someone have anything better?  Kevin, do you agree in principle to this?  MtGox?  Community feedback?

My personal goal is the longevity of Bitcoin.  Discussions with Kevin lead me to believe this is also his goal as well.  Is it MtGox's goal?  They have stated it is!  If so, step up!  If they do not, then I will have lost faith in their motives myself.  Others will make their own decisions.
toasty
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 81


View Profile
June 20, 2011, 10:35:34 PM
 #105



The person whose account was hacked (if it was one person) is entitled to their Bitcoins and it's MtGox's responsibility to provide that to him. Kevin did nothing wrong making a large purchase of bitcoins, but now that he KNOWs the bitcoins were stolen, he's possessing stolen property, which can be a felony. The fact that MtGox's account was hacked makes all the difference here, as it makes the bitcoins which were traded stolen property.

Nobody here knows that's what happened though.

And there are many ways this could be interpreted in wholly different ways. One way could be, depending on what actually happened, is that MtGox's system sold me bitcoins that they didn't have a seller for, so they sold them to me themselves.

That's a bit of a stretch, but saying what happened here is positively "theft" when there's no evidence of any "theft" happening, and it's hard to say that even if what they say happened did happen, that it's actually theft or not.
martin
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 150



View Profile WWW
June 20, 2011, 10:36:31 PM
 #106

What's with so many people loving mtgox? they have "some responsibility" for writing crappy software, getting hacked via a dodgy auditor and getting the entire contents of the exchange sold off in 5 minutes? You're right, they do have the tiniest smidgeon of responsibility there...

The person whose account was hacked (if it was one person) is entitled to their Bitcoins and it's MtGox's responsibility to provide that to him. Kevin did nothing wrong making a large purchase of bitcoins, but now that he KNOWs the bitcoins were stolen, he's possessing stolen property, which can be a felony. The fact that MtGox's account was hacked makes all the difference here, as it makes the bitcoins which were traded stolen property.

If Kevin wanted, and as I'm sure a few other people have done, he could have purchased those coins, withdrawn every single one of them by exploiting the bug he identified, and then stayed quiet. Kevin, who is doing the right thing, will have 250k coins taken off him in the rollback, and would probably return those 600 coins if asked, other shadier people will have got away with some money, will stay quiet about it, and will get to keep it.

I think we're rewarding the wrong people here!

wol-va-rine
Jr. Member
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 42


View Profile
June 20, 2011, 10:37:07 PM
 #107

I actually agree with OP 100%. This is Mt. Gox's responsibility to make right. Especially in light of numerous complains regarding security well before the plummet. The fact is they were in over their heads and they dont know what to do now. Who are they to roll back a market?

THEY allowed their system to be compromised. They alone. I dont care if it was an auditor. That auditor had authorization to access their files and was acting on authority of the owner. No difference. I have zero pity for Mt. Gox. The only right thing to do is to reimburse the original owner for everything that he lost (since there arent enough bitcoins available, they need to BUY them for him. Period.) and the OP be allowed to retain the bitcoins fairly purchased. If I had money in Mt. Gox at the time, I would have been furiously trying to buy, too. There were plenty of posts here that thought it was a legitimate selloff. The OP did nothing wrong. Period.

they "allowed" it to happen...?

okay, so if someone goes to 7-11, runs in for a second to buy something and leaves their car running it's no longer a theft if someone else takes it...? obviously the car is now theirs to sell, right...? they "allowed" their car to get stolen due to their own stupidity, so that's where the situation ends, right...?
chihlidog
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 28


View Profile
June 20, 2011, 10:39:24 PM
 #108

I actually agree with OP 100%. This is Mt. Gox's responsibility to make right. Especially in light of numerous complains regarding security well before the plummet. The fact is they were in over their heads and they dont know what to do now. Who are they to roll back a market?

THEY allowed their system to be compromised. They alone. I dont care if it was an auditor. That auditor had authorization to access their files and was acting on authority of the owner. No difference. I have zero pity for Mt. Gox. The only right thing to do is to reimburse the original owner for everything that he lost (since there arent enough bitcoins available, they need to BUY them for him. Period.) and the OP be allowed to retain the bitcoins fairly purchased. If I had money in Mt. Gox at the time, I would have been furiously trying to buy, too. There were plenty of posts here that thought it was a legitimate selloff. The OP did nothing wrong. Period.

they "allowed" it to happen...?

okay, so if someone goes to 7-11, runs in for a second to buy something and leaves their car running it's no longer a theft if someone else takes it...? obviously the car is now theirs to sell, right...? they "allowed" their car to get stolen due to their own stupidity, so that's where the situation ends, right...?

The original victim didnt leave his car running. He left it in a garage that is supposed to be secure.

Im not sure why anyone would want to, but just in case, I humbly and very gratefully accept donations at: 1Kn6NFFE4EqrhN1pgBDoBQEvSA5c3tdqhi
initiv
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 6


View Profile
June 20, 2011, 10:41:24 PM
 #109

I actually agree with OP 100%. This is Mt. Gox's responsibility to make right. Especially in light of numerous complains regarding security well before the plummet. The fact is they were in over their heads and they dont know what to do now. Who are they to roll back a market?

THEY allowed their system to be compromised. They alone. I dont care if it was an auditor. That auditor had authorization to access their files and was acting on authority of the owner. No difference. I have zero pity for Mt. Gox. The only right thing to do is to reimburse the original owner for everything that he lost (since there arent enough bitcoins available, they need to BUY them for him. Period.) and the OP be allowed to retain the bitcoins fairly purchased. If I had money in Mt. Gox at the time, I would have been furiously trying to buy, too. There were plenty of posts here that thought it was a legitimate selloff. The OP did nothing wrong. Period.

they "allowed" it to happen...?

okay, so if someone goes to 7-11, runs in for a second to buy something and leaves their car running it's no longer a theft if someone else takes it...? obviously the car is now theirs to sell, right...? they "allowed" their car to get stolen due to their own stupidity, so that's where the situation ends, right...?

The original victim didnt leave his car running. He left it in a garage that is supposed to be secure.

And the owner of the car was told that the garage wasn't secure but he didn't care, until this happened.

People who are making comparisons need to review the actual situation instead of making a straw man argument.
toasty
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 81


View Profile
June 20, 2011, 10:43:33 PM
 #110


okay, so if someone goes to 7-11, runs in for a second to buy something and leaves their car running it's no longer a theft if someone else takes it...? obviously the car is now theirs to sell, right...? they "allowed" their car to get stolen due to their own stupidity, so that's where the situation ends, right...?

Analogies are wonderful because there are so many of them!

Me: "Hey, Ford... This new car I got from you... People are telling me that if they go to a ford dealer they can get new keys to my car made without any proof they actually own my car! I keep a lot of valuable stuff in there, I don't want it to get stolen."

Ford: "There is nothing to worry about, nobody can have new keys to your car made. If you want to have your locks changed, you can do so whenever you want. Your car is safe if it's locked."

Now my car gets stolen because someone did convince Ford to make a new key to my car. Aren't they partially to blame, especially because they were notified that this very thing was happening and reassured me it was safe?
Phil21
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 154


View Profile
June 20, 2011, 10:44:23 PM
 #111

okay, so if someone goes to 7-11, runs in for a second to buy something and leaves their car running it's no longer a theft if someone else takes it...? obviously the car is now theirs to sell, right...? they "allowed" their car to get stolen due to their own stupidity, so that's where the situation ends, right...?

Haha, completely off topic here.  But for a winter here in Minneapolis, this was essentially the case.  For whatever reason, there was a huge rash of idiots leaving their cars running (while warming up, running in to get groceries, etc.).  It got to the point that the police refused to investigate any reports of stolen cars that were left running - they'd just take a report over the phone and that's that.
Batouzo
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 70


View Profile
June 20, 2011, 10:44:46 PM
 #112

You stole 643 btc. Congrats.

Why would you call that stealing.

I go to art baazaar.
See some painting for just 1 USD and I buy it. This sort of paintings where between 1 usd and 1000 usd in last year I suppose, but I don't even have to know that or be art market expert.

If later it turns out that the painting was brought to the trading place not by lawful owner, but by someone that stolen it from next room, or stolen it weeks ago, or got this painting in exchange for some work that was not done well so it was sort of "stolen" .... then why do I care about this all, exactly?


chihlidog
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 28


View Profile
June 20, 2011, 10:45:50 PM
 #113

I actually agree with OP 100%. This is Mt. Gox's responsibility to make right. Especially in light of numerous complains regarding security well before the plummet. The fact is they were in over their heads and they dont know what to do now. Who are they to roll back a market?

THEY allowed their system to be compromised. They alone. I dont care if it was an auditor. That auditor had authorization to access their files and was acting on authority of the owner. No difference. I have zero pity for Mt. Gox. The only right thing to do is to reimburse the original owner for everything that he lost (since there arent enough bitcoins available, they need to BUY them for him. Period.) and the OP be allowed to retain the bitcoins fairly purchased. If I had money in Mt. Gox at the time, I would have been furiously trying to buy, too. There were plenty of posts here that thought it was a legitimate selloff. The OP did nothing wrong. Period.

they "allowed" it to happen...?

okay, so if someone goes to 7-11, runs in for a second to buy something and leaves their car running it's no longer a theft if someone else takes it...? obviously the car is now theirs to sell, right...? they "allowed" their car to get stolen due to their own stupidity, so that's where the situation ends, right...?

The original victim didnt leave his car running. He left it in a garage that is supposed to be secure.

And the owner of the car was told that the garage wasn't secure but he didn't care, until this happened.

People who are making comparisons need to review the actual situation instead of making a straw man argument.

The garage owner assured everyone that their cars were secure, even when people borught concerns to his attention. His business operation was dependent on keeping said cars secure, and he ridiculed people who said they werent.

Im not sure why anyone would want to, but just in case, I humbly and very gratefully accept donations at: 1Kn6NFFE4EqrhN1pgBDoBQEvSA5c3tdqhi
myrkul
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 532


FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM


View Profile WWW
June 20, 2011, 10:46:50 PM
 #114

The person whose account was hacked (if it was one person) is entitled to their Bitcoins and it's MtGox's responsibility to provide that to him. Kevin did nothing wrong making a large purchase of bitcoins, but now that he KNOWs the bitcoins were stolen, he's possessing stolen property, which can be a felony. The fact that MtGox's account was hacked makes all the difference here, as it makes the bitcoins which were traded stolen property.

This.

Even if the bitcoins were MtGox's to begin with, the trades should be reversed. Kevin did a pretty smart thing in jumping in there to grab those BTC, But the release of the DB shows that it was a hack, whether from an insider or from someone in it for the lulz, and the person (or persons) whose BTC those were should get them back.

BTC1MYRkuLv4XPBa6bGnYAronz55grPAGcxja
Need Dispute resolution? Public Key ID: 0x11D341CF
No person has the right to initiate force, threat of force, or fraud against another person or their property. VIM VI REPELLERE LICET
chihlidog
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 28


View Profile
June 20, 2011, 10:47:45 PM
 #115

I actually agree with OP 100%. This is Mt. Gox's responsibility to make right. Especially in light of numerous complains regarding security well before the plummet. The fact is they were in over their heads and they dont know what to do now. Who are they to roll back a market?

THEY allowed their system to be compromised. They alone. I dont care if it was an auditor. That auditor had authorization to access their files and was acting on authority of the owner. No difference. I have zero pity for Mt. Gox. The only right thing to do is to reimburse the original owner for everything that he lost (since there arent enough bitcoins available, they need to BUY them for him. Period.) and the OP be allowed to retain the bitcoins fairly purchased. If I had money in Mt. Gox at the time, I would have been furiously trying to buy, too. There were plenty of posts here that thought it was a legitimate selloff. The OP did nothing wrong. Period.

they "allowed" it to happen...?

okay, so if someone goes to 7-11, runs in for a second to buy something and leaves their car running it's no longer a theft if someone else takes it...? obviously the car is now theirs to sell, right...? they "allowed" their car to get stolen due to their own stupidity, so that's where the situation ends, right...?

The original victim didnt leave his car running. He left it in a garage that is supposed to be secure.

And the owner of the car was told that the garage wasn't secure but he didn't care, until this happened.

People who are making comparisons need to review the actual situation instead of making a straw man argument.

The garage owner assured everyone that their cars were secure, even when people brought concerns to his attention. His business operation was dependent on keeping said cars secure, and he ridiculed people who said they werent. Customers had faith in the business to keep their assets secure, as it was vital to the business and had a reasonable expectation of it, and listened to the owner when he said that they were indeed safe.

Im not sure why anyone would want to, but just in case, I humbly and very gratefully accept donations at: 1Kn6NFFE4EqrhN1pgBDoBQEvSA5c3tdqhi
LeFBI
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 98



View Profile
June 20, 2011, 10:48:18 PM
 #116

@toasty:
So, you are Kevin, the guy who bought 259684 of stolen BTC for under $3000. And with your essay you are here to complain that MtGox says you can't keep the stolen value but will get your money back? Tell that face to face to person who got robbed.

And btw, how do we know you are not related to the hacker? Maybe you just wanted to launder the stolen BTC that he(or yourself) sold on MtGox.
toasty
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 81


View Profile
June 20, 2011, 10:48:39 PM
 #117

Given this, would you agree to a panel of senior community members (chosen at large by the community as a whole) to become a panel for arbitration between yourself and MtGox?  Lets call it 5 senior well-respected members, who both MtGox, yourself, and the community can all trust.

Kevin will submit his story, which he pretty much already did it seems.  MtGox will tell their side, and provide confidential information needed to verify it to these 5 panel members.

These 5 members will decide the best course of action in relation to your specific situation with the following guidelines given to them:
* The primary consideration is what is best for the community as a whole
* Any solution will not bankrupt or otherwise substantially impact MtGox's operational capabilities

This would accomplish the following, based on your +/- system:
+ Gives the community some semblance of transparency for a MAJOR issue with the bitcoin market as a whole (as it exists today, at least)
+ Allows both sides to tell their story in relative confidence, thus protecting any major run on markets or mtgox due to new info being released that may be damaging.
+ Keeps this situation out of the court system, where it really has no business belonging and everyone is a loser
+ Quick resolution if MtGox agrees to this, I can't imagine it taking more than a few hours?
- Random panel of 5 "Internet Dudes" are deciding your fate
- You have a very substantial chance of being ordered to give back the BTC you withdrew, should the community members deem it appropriate

I believe this solution, with of course some tweaks to make both parties feel comfortable can accomplish everyone's *stated* goals here.  It will allow Kevin to know what happened, so he knows he's not being completely taken advantage of, it will allow the community to gain transparency and show to outsiders we can resolve problems in an expediant and reasonable manner.  Additionally MtGox will be able to end the rampant speculation as to their activities, and at least for me personally I'd regain a lot of confidence in their exchange.

Does someone have anything better?  Kevin, do you agree in principle to this?  MtGox?  Community feedback?

My personal goal is the longevity of Bitcoin.  Discussions with Kevin lead me to believe this is also his goal as well.  Is it MtGox's goal?  They have stated it is!  If so, step up!  If they do not, then I will have lost faith in their motives myself.  Others will make their own decisions.

As long as I didn't feel it was filled with people who had already made up their minds before starting, or if we could use a mutually agreed on professional arbitrator, I'd be up for something like that.

I don't want to feel like I'm participating in some kind of "tragedy of the commons" scenario. If the community consensus says doing X is overall the best option for EVERYONE, I'd be willing to go along with it. I'm far less concerned with my own outcome than I am of the effect all of this will have on everyone.

toasty
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 81


View Profile
June 20, 2011, 10:49:29 PM
 #118

@toasty:
So, you are Kevin, the guy who bought 259684 of stolen BTC for under $3000. And with your essay you are here to complain that MtGox says you can't keep the stolen value but will get your money back? Tell that face to face to person who got robbed.

And btw, how do we know you are not related to the hacker? Maybe you just wanted to launder the stolen BTC that he(or yourself) sold on MtGox.

Do you know how I can tell you didn't read the original post? Smiley
bitbitcoincoin
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 126



View Profile
June 20, 2011, 10:53:12 PM
 #119

Sorry Kevin, but Mt Gox is making this right, it's just not right for your financial gains.

Although your transaction went through, it happened during a time when the exchange was not under legitimate terms, so of course the only recourse is to roll back any transactions up to the breaking point of legitimacy.   To not do so would destroy the economy to the point of making all those bitcoins you "earned" effectively worthless.
Torminalis
Jr. Member
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 39


View Profile
June 20, 2011, 10:56:24 PM
 #120

It is wildly obvious that there was no single guy with a cool half million coins in his account.

It wasn't long ago that everyone was gawping at some 425k coins being moved, presumably offline by the MtGox lot. Then there are 50,000 users they have picked up in the last month. (I was about 11,000 and I signed up on June 1st, there are 60,000 odd on the list now!). They offline most of their funds and just keep a float, hence the maximum withdrawal limit.

All the coins that people see trading are all just numbers in a database. The hacker clearly had much more control than is being let on, I would imagine he ran a SQL script of some sort to dump all of the dbCoins into one account and then put in a sell for next to nothing.

MtGox cannot afford to honour all of the coins. That is all of the coins they have, and everyone else who is daft enough to leave their coins on a public exchange run by beginners. If they honour your claim, there is no more MtGox and everyone and their mother will be up in arms, litigating, leering and generally ousting them from the community they have helped to build.

The bottom line is that you are losing the coins no matter how much you complain. You say you should keep them for the good of the community but if you've got half of the freely traded bitcoins then the market really is gone. Tough luck.
Bit_Happy
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1652


A Great Time to Start Something!


View Profile
June 20, 2011, 10:58:07 PM
 #121

I am astounded at the outpouring of support for MtGox here. Wow. MtGox allowed itself to be compromised, THEY are the ones responsible for settling things financially here. If they werent ready for this possibility, they shouldnt have been in the business.

They were the best option available for a mass of humanity rushing to pay big $$$'s for BTC. When they re-open they will still be the best current option, IMO.

toasty
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 81


View Profile
June 20, 2011, 11:01:52 PM
 #122

You say you should keep them for the good of the community but if you've got half of the freely traded bitcoins then the market really is gone. Tough luck.

I don't think I actually said that, though.

I said a forced rollback of the whole thing was bad for the community, and without a lot more transparency what the right solution is is very hard to determine.
Phil21
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 154


View Profile
June 20, 2011, 11:03:53 PM
 #123

Sorry Kevin, but Mt Gox is making this right, it's just not right for your financial gains.

So you feel you have enough information at-hand to reasonably know what happened?  The rollback is a foregone conclusion to me.  It's everything else that matters.  Kevin obviously knows he's not a newly minted millionaire, and has made that clear in multiple posts.  Mtgox rolling back and covering up the extent of their apparent negligence is not "making it right" by my definition.

The problem begins where MtGox's story is fabricated, at least a portion of it which can be independently verified as a fact.  Perhaps this was due to the rush of getting information out ASAP while still uncovering things, etc.  I'd like to believe that vs. them lying directly to our faces?

It is very clear this was not a simple account password breach.  It goes deeper.  I want to know how deep, and I'd have thought the community as a whole would want to know as well.

Ah well, I tried Smiley
ius
Jr. Member
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 56


View Profile
June 20, 2011, 11:06:24 PM
 #124

Not going to make an ethical judgment here on the course of action for MtGox, so right to the point:

Quote
This transferred 643.27 bitcoins to my personal bitcoin account before hitting that limit.

We were discussing your story in #bitcoin, but weren't able to track down said transfer in the block chain. Could you point it out?

PGP: 0xCC06E446 Bitcoin: 19kdfgW1KXQgV7SCLEPAojtHxN9xotGkGH
marcus_of_augustus
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2464



View Profile
June 20, 2011, 11:07:30 PM
 #125

It is wildly obvious that there was no single guy with a cool half million coins in his account.

It wasn't long ago that everyone was gawping at some 425k coins being moved, presumably offline by the MtGox lot. Then there are 50,000 users they have picked up in the last month. (I was about 11,000 and I signed up on June 1st, there are 60,000 odd on the list now!). They offline most of their funds and just keep a float, hence the maximum withdrawal limit.

All the coins that people see trading are all just numbers in a database. The hacker clearly had much more control than is being let on, I would imagine he ran a SQL script of some sort to dump all of the dbCoins into one account and then put in a sell for next to nothing.

MtGox cannot afford to honour all of the coins. That is all of the coins they have, and everyone else who is daft enough to leave their coins on a public exchange run by beginners. If they honour your claim, there is no more MtGox and everyone and their mother will be up in arms, litigating, leering and generally ousting them from the community they have helped to build.

The bottom line is that you are losing the coins no matter how much you complain. You say you should keep them for the good of the community but if you've got half of the freely traded bitcoins then the market really is gone. Tough luck.


This.

It is clear now that MtGox has not been trading bitcoins but a representation of bitcoin, storing the real bitcoin off-line from the trading accounts (the one big centralised 500k account).

More centralisation, more fail. It is like the fiat credit crises freeze all over again, the bitcoins weren't really there and when the hackers showed up there was nothing to go around and fill the gaps, even if they took nothing, just shuffled things around and messed it all up.

Lesson learned, move on, decentralise. Get bitcoins in your hand or you got nothing but promises.

EDIT: By storing the MtGox float in one account then they have become a counterparty to all trades by proxy, i.e. a market maker. Not what is claimed up front.

bitrebel
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 364


View Profile
June 20, 2011, 11:08:12 PM
 #126

@toasty:
So, you are Kevin, the guy who bought 259684 of stolen BTC for under $3000. And with your essay you are here to complain that MtGox says you can't keep the stolen value but will get your money back? Tell that face to face to person who got robbed.

And btw, how do we know you are not related to the hacker? Maybe you just wanted to launder the stolen BTC that he(or yourself) sold on MtGox.

You don't know very much about this, do you?

Why does Bitrebel have 65+ Ignores?
Because Bitrebel says things that some people do not want YOU to hear.
Torminalis
Jr. Member
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 39


View Profile
June 20, 2011, 11:08:41 PM
 #127

Fair enough old chap, and you sound perfectly reasonable if not wildly optimistic!

The blunt truth of it though is that there are nowhere near enough T&C's to stop MtGox from saving it's arse. If all those coins are gone, not only will they be bankrupt but an awful lot of other people will be out of pocket.
MyFarm
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 854


View Profile
June 20, 2011, 11:09:33 PM
 #128

3) The precedent they're setting here cannot be maintained.

Exactly what happened here may never be fully known, but according to Mt Gox an unauthorized user accessed someone's account and placed a sell order. Passwords get guessed/leaked all the time, and any exchange that attempts to undo that in every case will undoubtably fail.

If I'm careless with my password and someone places orders on my behalf in my account without my permission, will Mt Gox revert an hour's worth of trading to fix it? What if I only had 2 bitcoins? Or 20? or 200? There is no way rolling back trades to handle a compromised password in any way that will scale to the size of bitcoin's current economy. Unless Mt Gox is wiling to explicitly say they'll give this same treatment to any user who has their account compromised, it's blatantly unfair to everyone else.

This also opens the door to allowing anyone to request equal treatment if they made some trades they later regret. Log in through a proxy to make it seem like someone from a distant country was using your account, make your trades, then later scream about how your account was compromised and you want a do-over.
This is the key right here.

Make no mistake, if they do a roll back and if my account gets hacked in the future I will be demanding a roll back no matter how many BTC are traded.  And I rather like the proxy idea you stated.  I might just have to go for a super risky trade and demand a rollback if it doesn't work and claim hacking.
toasty
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 81


View Profile
June 20, 2011, 11:10:20 PM
 #129

Not going to make an ethical judgment here on the course of action for MtGox, so right to the point:

Quote
This transferred 643.27 bitcoins to my personal bitcoin account before hitting that limit.

We were discussing your story in #bitcoin, but weren't able to track down said transfer in the block chain. Could you point it out?


http://blockexplorer.com/t/cu8GyUmqj
Klestin
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 494


View Profile
June 20, 2011, 11:10:31 PM
 #130

If only one question is answered by MtGox, I hope it is whether the 500,000 BTC was really all in one account (the only one compromised).
ottodv
Jr. Member
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 59


View Profile
June 20, 2011, 11:12:37 PM
 #131

Regardless of MtGox responsibility in this matter, I don't think anyone should hold on to stolen goods they bought at 1500 times below the market price.

Wisest seems to me to give those 643 BTC back to MtGox. If you choose not to, your lawyer fees will likely far surpass the value of those bitcoins and you may end up with a criminal record as someone who knowingly kept stolen goods (which most likely is a criminal offense in your jurisdiction).

If someone accidentally transfers a million dollars to your bank account, you'd have to give it back too, even if you moved some of that to another account at an other bank in another country shortly after seeing your statement. I seriously doubt a judge will see your case any differently. If you hide the money a judge can order you held until you reveal the whereabouts.

The fact that you got money (or bitcoins) as a result of someone else's error (or crime) does not make them legally yours. That it's the other party's fault for not securing their passwords properly still does not entitle you to that money.

That said, I am no lawyer but I do remember a case of a woman being held for several months because she had hidden money accidentally wired to her account. She had also claimed it wasn't her fault that she got the money and was thus entitled to keep it. The judge clearly did not agree.
aral
Jr. Member
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 42


View Profile
June 20, 2011, 11:22:02 PM
 #132

What you think and what would happen in a court of law are two entirely different things.  Your opinion on the matter is void.
MyFarm
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 854


View Profile
June 20, 2011, 11:22:18 PM
 #133

If I'm the OP I file the injunction and subpoena every bit of server info from them because:

1.  It's obvious this account was Mt. Gox, not some users.

2.  How do we know there was a theft?  Maybe someone at Mt. Gox fat fingered the trade or there was a bug in their code.  Do fat fingered trades get reversed?

I think there's a decent chance this was never even theft.  I think someone at Mt. Gox screwed the pooch BIG time.  And if it wasn't theft, then the trade should absolutely NOT be rolled back.  How many others here put in a buy order for 20 bitcoins at 111 instead of 111 bitcoins at 20?  I know I have!  Maybe someone at Mt. Gox did something similar with their account or their was a bug in their automated software that converts BTC from their .65% fee to USD and crashed the market.

As the OP said, the likelihood that an account with 500,000 BTC could be easily brute forced is minute.  We'd all have HUGE passwords.  Something is VERY fishy here.

Kevin, lawyer up.  Make them PROVE this was a hack.
chuckypalumbo
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 151


View Profile
June 20, 2011, 11:24:55 PM
 #134

Kevin,

Someone hacking another persons account isn't right, and it also shouldn't allow for you to become a millionaire on wrong doing. It's pure greed plain and simple, and it's sad that you would want to "accept" what is basically stolen goods. Congrats....I guess?
RandyMarsh
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 237



View Profile
June 20, 2011, 11:25:13 PM
 #135

Kevin you're a douchebag, you ruined the whole shower. Sad

Stan?! STAN?!?!
bitbitcoincoin
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 126



View Profile
June 20, 2011, 11:28:17 PM
 #136

Sorry Kevin, but Mt Gox is making this right, it's just not right for your financial gains.

So you feel you have enough information at-hand to reasonably know what happened?  The rollback is a foregone conclusion to me.  It's everything else that matters.  Kevin obviously knows he's not a newly minted millionaire, and has made that clear in multiple posts.  Mtgox rolling back and covering up the extent of their apparent negligence is not "making it right" by my definition.

The problem begins where MtGox's story is fabricated, at least a portion of it which can be independently verified as a fact.  Perhaps this was due to the rush of getting information out ASAP while still uncovering things, etc.  I'd like to believe that vs. them lying directly to our faces?

It is very clear this was not a simple account password breach.  It goes deeper.  I want to know how deep, and I'd have thought the community as a whole would want to know as well.

Ah well, I tried Smiley

As with any interaction with any company there is a level of trust needed by both parties.  Many feel that level of trust is forever broken with Mt Gox and will no longer use it as a exchange, that is perfectly fine by me.  Mt Gox could easily go out of business from this fiasco and other exchanges will have to learn from the mistakes made to avoid a similar fate.  That in no way means Mt. Gox has any responsibility to allow transactions made during the duration of the hack and subsequent flash crash, which is unfortunate for people like Kevin here.
Gandlaf
Jr. Member
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 59


View Profile
June 20, 2011, 11:33:51 PM
 #137

Does anyone still remember how MtGox handled the last situation where there was a large amount at stake for MtGox?

http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=3712.0

That guy explained himself, was hounded by the community, MtGox barely bothered to respond, made some outlandish claims, froze funds and rapidly moved the whole operation to a different jurisdiction (Japan) after the guy finaly decided to get lawyers involved.

MtGox promised to inform the community! No news yet, and it´s been 6 months!

Really hate quoting myself, but I do believe this is important!

I´ve seen this kind of thing before (see the forum link), Kevin has put himself out there, has posted his side has explained in detail and has been answering questions, MtGox, not so much.

Hell Kevin has even been on http://onlyonetv.com/ , answering questions for about 2 hours. Mark(MagicalTux) not so much, he was supposed to be on but weaseled out, explaining that his English wasn´t good enough(http://onlyonetv.com/?p=203) and sending an employee(no video mind you).

That´s not my idea of transparency.

So how about this as an idea: Let the two of them find a solution to the whole mess on http://onlyonetv.com/ in a live discussion. And if Mark Kerpel´s command of the English language really is all that bad, let him bring a translator(easily covered by about an hour of MtGox fees).
I don´t get why the guy that has shown transparency up to now is villified whilst the one who has been sorely lacking in transparency is being celebrated. (Especially given the track record [see forum link above])

Bitcoin donations: 1hWi34by8KRLEh4san5Eotz5WzU3AJZA5
TiagoTiago
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 616


Firstbits.com/1fg4i :)


View Profile
June 20, 2011, 11:55:14 PM
 #138

If i was in position of snatching the booty out of a thieves hand i would, and would hold onto it until i was sure the safe where it was taken from was secured again (or the police instructed me to hand it back to the original owner even though he was likely to loose it again). But i admit the temptation of charging a "finder's fee" to compensate myself for the trouble would be significant, not sure how i would decide on that...

(I dont always get new reply notifications, pls send a pm when you think it has happened)

Wanna gimme some BTC/BCH for any or no reason? 1FmvtS66LFh6ycrXDwKRQTexGJw4UWiqDX Smiley

The more you believe in Bitcoin, and the more you show you do to other people, the faster the real value will soar!

Do you like mmmBananas?!
MyFarm
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 854


View Profile
June 20, 2011, 11:57:21 PM
 #139

Kevin, after what Mt Gox did in the "their side" thread to try and CONNECT YOU with the hacker, I sure as hell hope you file that injunction.
MagicalTux
VIP
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 608


Working on new MtGox features


View Profile WWW
June 21, 2011, 12:01:53 AM
 #140

Kevin, after what Mt Gox did in the "their side" thread to try and CONNECT YOU with the hacker, I sure as hell hope you file that injunction.
I sure hope too, will make it easier for us.

enmaku
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 742


View Profile
June 21, 2011, 12:03:16 AM
 #141

Kevin, after what Mt Gox did in the "their side" thread to try and CONNECT YOU with the hacker, I sure as hell hope you file that injunction.
I sure hope too, will make it easier for us.

OH SNAP! IT'S ON NOW SON!
bitrebel
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 364


View Profile
June 21, 2011, 12:04:32 AM
 #142

Kevin, after what Mt Gox did in the "their side" thread to try and CONNECT YOU with the hacker, I sure as hell hope you file that injunction.

Agreed. It's ON!

There is and will be, and should be a full on WAR!
I would fight for that $5 Million dollars, Kevin, because you might get it, if Mt Gox is found to have tried to breach themselves and then blame you or some shadowy nobody. Especially if that 500,000 bitcoin account belonged to them to begin with. Fuck them, until they prove something useful.

If I were in the right, and this was happening to me, i'd sue for the current value of the 250,000 bitcoins, simple and final.

Why does Bitrebel have 65+ Ignores?
Because Bitrebel says things that some people do not want YOU to hear.
Jaime Frontero
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 126


View Profile
June 21, 2011, 12:05:03 AM
 #143

now wait just a damn minute...

mods - has the OP been edited?

see post #10.  i seem to recall that originally, the OP declared that he had a standing order at 0.01, but was worried it would get eaten up by other orders at the same level - so he changed it to 0.0101.

is that not the case?
Phil21
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 154


View Profile
June 21, 2011, 12:07:29 AM
 #144

I sure hope too, will make it easier for us.

Wow.  You really are a dbag.  You have specific personal knowledge given to you that Kevin is NOT involved with this, and you post this.  Very interesting.
gigitrix
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 666


Bitcoins finest!!!


View Profile
June 21, 2011, 12:07:57 AM
 #145

You did business with MTGox. It's such an extraordinary event, that MTGox themselves are the ones who get to make any decisions in this matter. The market will reward or punish their choice. Personally I think MtGox is in the right in this instance.
epi 1:10,000
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 154


View Profile
June 21, 2011, 12:09:06 AM
 #146

Kevin, after what Mt Gox did in the "their side" thread to try and CONNECT YOU with the hacker, I sure as hell hope you file that injunction.
I sure hope too, will make it easier for us.

OH SNAP! IT'S ON NOW SON!

+1
radracer
Jr. Member
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 46


View Profile
June 21, 2011, 12:11:08 AM
 #147

Kevin, after what Mt Gox did in the "their side" thread to try and CONNECT YOU with the hacker, I sure as hell hope you file that injunction.
I sure hope too, will make it easier for us.

wtf is this supposed to mean?  kevin has been nothing but up front about everything.   this response is gross as hell.
MyFarm
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 854


View Profile
June 21, 2011, 12:12:19 AM
 #148

Kevin, after what Mt Gox did in the "their side" thread to try and CONNECT YOU with the hacker, I sure as hell hope you file that injunction.
I sure hope too, will make it easier for us.
L
O
L

This is the team holding millions of dollars worth of our capital?

God I love Bitcoin.  We should have our own reality show.
Batouzo
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 70


View Profile
June 21, 2011, 12:13:03 AM
 #149

You did business with MTGox. It's such an extraordinary event, that MTGox themselves are the ones who get to make any decisions in this matter. The market will reward or punish their choice. Personally I think MtGox is in the right in this instance.

Reverting might be the lesser evil for some, of course ideally the exchanger would eat the bullet, revert and let the low-price-sellers profit - repay them from own pocket.

Getting FBI/CIA involved by giving them logs is not something that users of free, libertarian, bettern-then-government "money" system would love too much I guess.

Astro
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 276



View Profile
June 21, 2011, 12:16:22 AM
 #150

Hey, I was doing something social or playing outside when the shit hit the fan.  Who can I sue to get hooked up with some phat 0.001 bitcoin action?
Rassah
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1680


Director of Bitcoin100


View Profile
June 21, 2011, 12:19:30 AM
 #151

If, as you believe, this 500,000 coin selloff, was a legitimate selloff, and was NOT due to theft (the only reason you may be legally entitled to keep your bitcoin), then it's likely that after the rollback, this seller will just sell their money again. So, put in a few more orders at 0.0101, and wait for another windfall. If the money WAS stolen, well then...

Batouzo
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 70


View Profile
June 21, 2011, 12:20:04 AM
 #152

do you imbeciles honestly think that abusing a security breach to get millions of dollars in assets is fair?

that's like watching a terrorist blow a hole in fort knox and stealing half the gold then pleading that it's fair!!

Really? To me it is more like watching group of man running from one side of market to another, and later buying some cheap used cellphones nearby seeing how there are tons of sell-offs.
You may be surprised about the prices, but actually this place is known for incredible price swings and unbelievable occasions.

Sure this looks sort of suspicious, but do we have independent "people's currency" to:
- make verdicts based on total speculation (at time of writing this post: coincidental close login times of hackers and the person that was able to made the cheap buy
- leak logs to hackers and Internet
- hand over logs to CIA/FBI

I may like mtgox (more until inexcusable horrible security was revealed), but above is really bad imo.


 

nelisky
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1554


View Profile
June 21, 2011, 12:23:26 AM
 #153

I just wished someone on the other side of the table would say something. This actually points to a single account getting compromised, or the wallet itself. How can there be so many crying "ahhh, but I thought I was going to get rich. I didn't know it was stolen, honest..." and no one stating the reverse side of the coin?

Maybe noone noticed yet, and with the reversed transactions never will, but just imaging all your coins had been sold for $0.01 a piece... you could argue that it was mtgox fault, sure, but how would you feel about the guy that knowing something fishy was going on still bought them (I would) and then, when shit hits the fan, throws a public fit because he might have to give the stolen coins back? I know, it sucks to not be freakin' rich anymore, but just imagine your however many k's of coins got sold as a result of a security breach, the site owner had the option to revert these abusive transactions but instead throws in the towel and says "tough luck, I'm out" ?
Phil21
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 154


View Profile
June 21, 2011, 12:23:53 AM
 #154

This may (or may not) be my last reply on this matter.  It is now a legal issue, unfortunately.  I'd like to point out Kevin made every attempt to avoid this and set things right.

I'd imagine Kevin may be scarce either now, or very soon as well.  Remember directly publicly accusing someone of a felony, generally causes them to lawyer up if they have any intelligence whatsoever.

MT - I used to think you were simply an amateur operating out of his depth.  Now I fear something far worse is afoot.

Hopefully the truth comes out soon.

Otherwise, good luck to everyone who has money riding on this - I hope you can afford to lose it Sad  I know I'm likely out a thousand or so myself.

-Phil
allinvain
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2366



View Profile
June 21, 2011, 12:29:14 AM
 #155

Kevin, this isn't something that can be decided with forum posts. Get a lawyer and keep your mouth shut in public.


this ^

you can't seriously thing that you'll get the 250k or parts of it by making a forum post, do you?
there is nothing to gain, but there is 643 BTC to loose in case MtGox demands those back and you are making public statements here.


And if he refuses to give them back??? What are they going to do, sue him? How did any of us know it was a hack. As I stated, there were many forum posts right HERE talking about the "major selloff". People thought Satoshi was getting out and dumping. 90 percent of you would have bought at .01 if you could have. SO Mt Gox should get their coins back bcause they allowed themselves to be compromised?

Someone gets their wallet stolen and the prevailing attitude here is "oh well, should have been more careful", but a site trusted with our financial resources allows themselves to be hacked, and everyone feels bad for them?

Don't be surprised. Mt.Gox is the bitcoin equivalent of a liked social institution -everyone has a stake in it and they are going to protect it. But when something like this happens to an individual they're going to say "tough luck.." Double standards are everywhere. It's human nature.


Batouzo
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 70


View Profile
June 21, 2011, 12:29:50 AM
 #156

Really? To me it is more like watch group of man running from one side of market to another, and later buying some cheap used cellphones nearby seeing how there are tons of sell-offs.
because someone definitely implanted a mindcontrol chip in their brains to force them to sell

No, just the phones had really low sticker prices on them, and the selling system is fully automated.

As I customer I don't give a fuck who's fault is it that some phones where allowed to be moved into other part of the shop, or between shops or something - especially that the same System/Person is responsible for allowing the initial steal and later trading of it.


EDITED (appended):

Btw. nice example with the mindcontroll chip.
But here the obviously fraudulent operation of taking over accounts was connected to unknown operations - buy and sell orders, some of them legit, some not, we will never know for sure.

I guess I would also rollback in place of mtgox, but what is the right thing to do is to eat the bullet and repay everyone. But that is nor possible probably since mtgox would need to have around 400,000 USD or so liquidity.

Or perhaps settle with the buyer, and slowly repay him over next 10 years using 5% monthly profit or something, and be known as the most trusted exchange ever that will always eat the bullet and never let down any customers about transactions Smiley  (yea but its unrealistic..)

Rhydic
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 9


View Profile
b
June 21, 2011, 12:34:33 AM
 #157

b

b
josell
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 182



View Profile
June 21, 2011, 12:35:14 AM
 #158

I don't know about who have the right on these bitcoins, however,

No one cares about the innocent users affected by this situation?

Hellllooooo... This is about MONEY; the measure of work of many people.

Thank GOD my account was empty.
NO_SLAVE
Jr. Member
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 56


DEBT IS SLAVERY


View Profile
June 21, 2011, 12:35:45 AM
 #159

Kevin,

I think your just motivated by the greed, so to make it easier for everyone (especially yourself), take your 654 or whatever BTC and just walk away.
Call it a day and Go enjoy your 7000$ profit, and let BTC continue fixing its bugs and getting better.
Youre holding up the parade.  Wouldnt you like to be known as the giant hearted guy that did the right thing?  The Karma is gonna be enormous brah!
Think of the ladies. They love that kind of hero stuff.

good on ya in advance for heeding this advice,  Wink
bitrebel
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 364


View Profile
June 21, 2011, 12:40:39 AM
 #160

I think you better file suit, Kevin, or you are going to look like the hacker in everyone's eyes, maybe even my own.


Why does Bitrebel have 65+ Ignores?
Because Bitrebel says things that some people do not want YOU to hear.
broker11
Jr. Member
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 30


View Profile
June 21, 2011, 12:43:44 AM
 #161

Kevin,
  MagicalTux says you logged in and placed the .01 cent order 3 minutes before the selloff began.

  Is this true?

http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=20250.msg253491
Batouzo
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 70


View Profile
June 21, 2011, 12:45:28 AM
 #162

because it's definitely not fishy that the phones cost 1 cent instead of 100 dollars

Thoes are not "phones", thoes are art paintings. One day worth 1 usd another 1,000,000 USD. You are not required to know.

Also, what with traders @12, trades @10, trades @5, trades @14 ... all deales are supposed to be reverted.
neneko
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 28


View Profile
June 21, 2011, 12:46:06 AM
 #163

Okay this is just getting silly. The behavior of Mt Gox here is completely unprofessional. If you suspect that Kevin is the hacker/worked with the hacker then you go the legal route. Trying to slander him on a forum isn't the right way to go.

The sad part here is that you already know this and the reason you slander Kevin on the boards is that you hope that if people get someone to blame for this they'll forget that this is all Mt Gox fault. You're making Kevin a scapegoat and hope that people will keep trading on Mt Gox when this thing is over and you can open up trading again. I really hope people aren't falling for it.

Mt Gox weren't ready to go from trading cards to actually currencies and the whole clusterfuck that has been their handling of this case has proven that beyond reasonable doubt. For the record I think the lack of security measures was enough to leave mt gox, the rest is just icing on the cake.

elk-tamer
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 70


View Profile
June 21, 2011, 12:46:25 AM
 #164

I don't see how anyone can read the OP and think KD has a case for keeping his money. Based on his owns words, I think he should be going to prison.  Compare what he did to what Martha Stewart did. Do we know where he lives? American DA's freakin' love to take on cases that will be big in the news.
BCEmporium
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1148



View Profile
June 21, 2011, 12:49:55 AM
 #165

Kevin 170 x MtGox 131
Who will make the "epic-est" thread?

██████████████████            ██████████
████████████████              ██████████
██████████████          ▄█   ███████████
████████████         ▄████   ███████████
██████████        ▄███████  ████████████
████████        ▄█████████  ████████████
██████        ▄███████████  ████████████
████       ▄██████████████ █████████████
██      ▄███████████████████████████████
▀        ███████████████████████████████
▄          █████████████████████████████
██▄         ▀███████████████████████████
████▄        ▀██████████████████████████
██████▄        ▀████████████████████████
████████▄        ████████████████▀ █████
██████████▄       ▀█████████████  ██████
████████████▄       ██████████   ███████
██████████████▄      ▀██████    ████████
████████████████▄▄     ███     █████████
███████████████████▄    ▀     ██████████
█████████████████████▄       ███████████
███████████████████████▄   ▄████████████





▄█████████████████   ███             ███   ███   ███▄                ▄███            █████            ████████████████   ████████████████▄             █████
███▀                 ███             ███   ███   ████▄              ▄████           ███████           ███                ███           ▀███           ███████
███                  ███             ███   ███   █████▄            ▄█████          ███▀ ▀███          ███                ███            ███          ███▀ ▀███
███                  ███             ███   ███   ███ ███▄        ▄███ ███        ▄███▀   ▀███▄        ███                ███           ▄███        ▄███▀   ▀███▄
███                  ███████████████████   ███   ███  ▀██▄      ▄██▀  ███       ▄███▀     ▀███▄       ████████████████   ████████████████▀        ▄███▀     ▀███▄
███                  ███             ███   ███   ███   ▀███    ███▀   ███      ▄███▀       ▀███▄      ███                ███        ███          ▄███▀       ▀███▄
███                  ███             ███   ███   ███    ▀███  ███▀    ███     ▄███▀         ▀███▄     ███                ███         ███        ▄███▀         ▀███▄
███▄                 ███             ███   ███   ███      ██████      ███    ▄███             ███▄    ███                ███          ███      ▄███             ███▄
▀█████████████████   ███             ███   ███   ███       ████       ███   ▄███               ███▄   ████████████████   ███           ███    ▄███               ███▄

|
  TRUE BLOCKCHAIN GAMING PLATFORM 
DECENTRALISED AUTONOMOUS UNIVERSES

  HOME PAGE                                                                  WHITE PAPER 
|
radracer
Jr. Member
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 46


View Profile
June 21, 2011, 12:52:58 AM
 #166

I don't see how anyone can read the OP and think KD has a case for keeping his money. Based on his owns words, I think he should be going to prison.  Compare what he did to what Martha Stewart did. Do we know where he lives? American DA's freakin' love to take on cases that will be big in the news.

what exactly did martha stewart do?  it sure as shit wasn't commit any actual crimes.
Rassah
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1680


Director of Bitcoin100


View Profile
June 21, 2011, 12:55:05 AM
 #167

Regarding the 500k BTC account:
 Bitcoin transfers aren't free, remember? So, if you trade between USD and BTC a lot, if it was actually done Bitcoin to Bitcoin, the transaction fees would be eating up a lot of people's trades, and would be costly for MtGox as well. I suspect the actual buying and selling is all done on a SQL database, and the only time actual Bitcoin comes into play is when someone requests a withdrawal. I think this method is a good idea, since it saves everyone money. Due to this, though, the 500K Bitcoin that was "stolen" could very likely be just an arbitrary number in an account, which doesn't mean anything more than an IOU from MtGox. So, not reverting this would amount to actually filling everyone's account with actual bitcoin. Like others pointed out, these stolen IOU's could very well be money from EVERYONE'S accounts, not just one rich guys.

Swishercutter
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 210


View Profile
June 21, 2011, 01:02:18 AM
 #168

You people making the stolen property analogies are leaving out one critical factor. The middleman.

Let's say you go to a used car dealer, and you purchase a vehicle. Later it comes to light that the car was stolen. Would you then give the vehicle back? No. You wouldnt. The dealer would be responsible. Simple as that. The dealer would have to re-imburse either the original victim, or give the car back and re-coup the buyer. It doesnt matter what price the car was, if I bought it for 5 dollars, it was an agreement made with a professional organization who decided to get into the business of selling these things.

Except, in this case the thief walked into a Ferrari dealer pretended to be a legitimate salesman and sold it for $5...the buyer should have known better and now he is pissed because the dealership wants their car back.

I was in the forums while this was all happening and I myself thought it was either:
1) An early adopter selling off without care for crashing the market.
2) A mistake...someone entered .02 instead of 20 (I am aware how stupid that sounds...people can be stupid).
3) A hack.

I cannot say that if I had money in my account I would not have bought what I could...that is the smart thing to do...just I wouldn't cry when they tell me "Sorry, that was clearly an illegal trade" because I knew from the start there was a chance of that.  

  
elk-tamer
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 70


View Profile
June 21, 2011, 01:08:35 AM
 #169

I don't see how anyone can read the OP and think KD has a case for keeping his money. Based on his owns words, I think he should be going to prison.  Compare what he did to what Martha Stewart did. Do we know where he lives? American DA's freakin' love to take on cases that will be big in the news.

what exactly did martha stewart do?  it sure as shit wasn't commit any actual crimes.
She knowing profited from the illegal gained information and then lied about it. No way in hell she should have gone to jail though. Her real crime was in being a promotion worthy prosecution.

I just noticed that Kevin lives in Chicago. So the attorney would be the very ambitious Anita Alvarez.
myrkul
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 532


FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM


View Profile WWW
June 21, 2011, 01:12:22 AM
 #170

I just noticed that Kevin lives in Chicago. So the attorney would be the very ambitious Anita Alvarez.

I am reminded of the previous mention (in another thread) of the utility of BTC for anonymous bribes...

BTC1MYRkuLv4XPBa6bGnYAronz55grPAGcxja
Need Dispute resolution? Public Key ID: 0x11D341CF
No person has the right to initiate force, threat of force, or fraud against another person or their property. VIM VI REPELLERE LICET
foggyb
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1344


View Profile
June 21, 2011, 01:13:21 AM
 #171

I don't see how anyone can read the OP and think KD has a case for keeping his money. Based on his owns words, I think he should be going to prison.  Compare what he did to what Martha Stewart did. Do we know where he lives? American DA's freakin' love to take on cases that will be big in the news.

what exactly did martha stewart do?  it sure as shit wasn't commit any actual crimes.

What was she convicted of then? Trafficking in bad cooking advice?
jaybny
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 396


Fantasybits - Proof-of-Skill


View Profile WWW
June 21, 2011, 01:16:10 AM
 #172

Kevin, after what Mt Gox did in the "their side" thread to try and CONNECT YOU with the hacker, I sure as hell hope you file that injunction.
I sure hope too, will make it easier for us.

To defend MagicalTux here. He is french, and the miscommunications are incredible. I used to work with many French,  and they all come off like.. well like MtGox.  Its a combo of language and culture, that make the French seems incredibly obnoxious to Americans when communicating in English.

.02

Shinobi
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 196


View Profile
June 21, 2011, 01:20:22 AM
 #173

This is fucking hilarious. I've just read through nine pages of fucking hilarity. "Bitcoin.... the future is now" evangelists, people claiming the OP should be in prison, Mt. Gox making accusations (despite the fact that Mark refused to get on the phone directly in Bruce Wagner's Bitcoin show. How far does this have to go before you people realize that you guys are way in over your head on this? Its like kids in a sandbox. Most of you no understanding of economics and are all playing Michael Milken in your pajamas next to overclocked video cards.

Just look at yourselves.

There's NO WAY to rectify this mess you've gotten into without screwing someone. And despite the decentralized, anarcho-capitalist philosophy underlying this experiment that you all jerk off to at night, you are all scream for litigation.

Just look at yourselves!


_______
Thinking of using a cheap, yet reliable VPN? Go with PrivateInternetAccess. Not a referral link. Just a satisfied customer!
BCEmporium
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1148



View Profile
June 21, 2011, 01:24:47 AM
 #174

To defend MagicalTux here. He is french, and the miscommunications are incredible. I used to work with many French,  and they all come off like.. well like MtGox.  Its a combo of language and culture, that make the French seems incredibly obnoxious to Americans when communicating in English.

.02

It's a matter of Latin language structure (French, Spanish, Portuguese, Italian and Romanian) versus Anglo-Saxon (not "Americans" specifically) and you could add Germanic language branch versus those 2... and why not Slav.
Confusions of an old Continent such as Europe.

██████████████████            ██████████
████████████████              ██████████
██████████████          ▄█   ███████████
████████████         ▄████   ███████████
██████████        ▄███████  ████████████
████████        ▄█████████  ████████████
██████        ▄███████████  ████████████
████       ▄██████████████ █████████████
██      ▄███████████████████████████████
▀        ███████████████████████████████
▄          █████████████████████████████
██▄         ▀███████████████████████████
████▄        ▀██████████████████████████
██████▄        ▀████████████████████████
████████▄        ████████████████▀ █████
██████████▄       ▀█████████████  ██████
████████████▄       ██████████   ███████
██████████████▄      ▀██████    ████████
████████████████▄▄     ███     █████████
███████████████████▄    ▀     ██████████
█████████████████████▄       ███████████
███████████████████████▄   ▄████████████





▄█████████████████   ███             ███   ███   ███▄                ▄███            █████            ████████████████   ████████████████▄             █████
███▀                 ███             ███   ███   ████▄              ▄████           ███████           ███                ███           ▀███           ███████
███                  ███             ███   ███   █████▄            ▄█████          ███▀ ▀███          ███                ███            ███          ███▀ ▀███
███                  ███             ███   ███   ███ ███▄        ▄███ ███        ▄███▀   ▀███▄        ███                ███           ▄███        ▄███▀   ▀███▄
███                  ███████████████████   ███   ███  ▀██▄      ▄██▀  ███       ▄███▀     ▀███▄       ████████████████   ████████████████▀        ▄███▀     ▀███▄
███                  ███             ███   ███   ███   ▀███    ███▀   ███      ▄███▀       ▀███▄      ███                ███        ███          ▄███▀       ▀███▄
███                  ███             ███   ███   ███    ▀███  ███▀    ███     ▄███▀         ▀███▄     ███                ███         ███        ▄███▀         ▀███▄
███▄                 ███             ███   ███   ███      ██████      ███    ▄███             ███▄    ███                ███          ███      ▄███             ███▄
▀█████████████████   ███             ███   ███   ███       ████       ███   ▄███               ███▄   ████████████████   ███           ███    ▄███               ███▄

|
  TRUE BLOCKCHAIN GAMING PLATFORM 
DECENTRALISED AUTONOMOUS UNIVERSES

  HOME PAGE                                                                  WHITE PAPER 
|
Rassah
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1680


Director of Bitcoin100


View Profile
June 21, 2011, 01:26:35 AM
 #175

This is fucking hilarious. ...
Its like kids in a sandbox. Most of you no understanding of economics and are all playing Michael Milken in your pajamas next to overclocked video cards.

Just look at yourselves.

There's NO WAY to rectify this mess you've gotten into without screwing someone. And despite the decentralized, anarcho-capitalist philosophy underlying this experiment that you all jerk off to at night, you are all scream for litigation.

Just look at yourselves!

At one point, Steve Jobs and Bill Gates were just kids in a sandbox, playing business tycoons from their garages, screaming and threatening litigation at each other too.

Bazil
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 126


View Profile
June 21, 2011, 01:28:10 AM
 #176

If the government was taking bitcoins seriously you'd be going to prison man.  You attempted to acquire 5 million dollars of stolen bitcoins, even if you didn't cause the crash.  You only made off with about 10 grand worth. imho you should return those bitcoins to their rightful owner.  MtGox is going to have to foot the bill for the bitcoins you withdrew!

17Bo9a6YpXN2SbwY8mXLCD43Wup9ZE4rwm
myrkul
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 532


FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM


View Profile WWW
June 21, 2011, 01:30:51 AM
 #177

There's NO WAY to rectify this mess you've gotten into without screwing someone. And despite the decentralized, anarcho-capitalist philosophy underlying this experiment that you all jerk off to at night, you are all scream for litigation.

Just look at yourselves!

Excuse me, but me and my Rothbard pin-up poster want the government out of this.

BTC1MYRkuLv4XPBa6bGnYAronz55grPAGcxja
Need Dispute resolution? Public Key ID: 0x11D341CF
No person has the right to initiate force, threat of force, or fraud against another person or their property. VIM VI REPELLERE LICET
bitrebel
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 364


View Profile
June 21, 2011, 01:32:13 AM
 #178

Hey Kevin Day....

Are you the same Kevin Day that wrote the Book, "Inside the Security Mind" - Making the Tough Decisions Huh
http://www.amazon.com/Inside-Security-Mind-Making-Decisions/dp/0131118293

Product Description
Inside the Security Mind: Making the Tough Decisions, by security expert Kevin Day, teaches information officers how to think like a top security guru. Using real-world examples, Day explains how to reduce any security problem to a set of essential principles, making it easy to arrive at optimal solutions. Includes practical material on enterprise security issues and measures.
From the Back Cover

    "This is a really good book ... it spells out the motherhood and apple pie of information security in a highly readable way."

—Warwick Ford, CTO, VeriSign, Inc.

    "An excellent security read! Breaks down a complex concept into a simple and easy-to-understand concept."

—Vivek Shivananda, President

    Redefine your organization's information security
    Learn to think and act like a top security guru!
    Understand the founding principles of security itself and make better decisions
    Make your security solutions more effective, easily manageable, and less costly!

Make smarter, more informed security decisions for your companyOrganizations today commit ever-increasing resources to information security, but are scarcely more secure than they were four or five years ago! By treating information security like an ordinary technological practice—that is, by throwing money, a handful of the latest technologies, and a lineup of gurus at the problem—they invariably wind up with expensive, but deeply flawed, solutions. The only way out of this trap is to change one's way of thinking about security: to grasp the reasoning, philosophy, and logic that underlie all successful security efforts.

In Inside the Security Mind: Making the Tough Decisions, security expert Kevin Day teaches you how to approach information security the way the top gurus do—as an art, rather than a collection of technologies. By applying this discipline, your solutions will be more secure and less burdensome in time, expense, and effort. The first part of the book explains the practice of breaking security decisions down into a set of simple rules. These rules may then be applied to make solid security decisions in almost any environment. In the second part, Day uses a series of practical examples to illustrate exactly how the discipline works in practice. Additional material covers:

    Designing an enterprise security plan, including perimeter/firewall and Internal defenses, application, system, and hardware security
    Ongoing security measures—recurring audits, vulnerability maintenance, logging and monitoring, and incident response, plus risk assessment
    Choosing between open source and proprietary solutions; and wired, wireless, and virtual private networks

This book is essential reading for anyone working to keep information secure. Technical and non-technical IT professionals alike can apply Day's concepts and strategies to become security gurus, while seasoned practitioners will benefit from the unique and effective presentation of the essential security practices.

Why does Bitrebel have 65+ Ignores?
Because Bitrebel says things that some people do not want YOU to hear.
Batouzo
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 70


View Profile
June 21, 2011, 01:34:23 AM
 #179

To defend MagicalTux here. He is french, and the miscommunications are incredible. I used to work with many French,  and they all come off like.. well like MtGox.  Its a combo of language and culture, that make the French seems incredibly obnoxious to Americans when communicating in English.
.02

Are you sure MagicalTux is FR, not just their European SEPA transactions partner company?  (Not that this is too important, just curious)
bitrebel
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 364


View Profile
June 21, 2011, 02:05:44 AM
 #180

Is this you, Kevin?

http://www.freshports.org/mail/elm/
I'm looking for a bit of assistance from a undernet IRC node operator please. I would like a cloaked hostname. Seems I'm attracting a bit of attention.
Elm is an interactive screen-oriented mailer program  that
supersedes mail and mailx.  This is the 2.5.x distribution.

http://www.securityfocus.com/archive/75
Re: Unusual entry in Apache logs 2008-05-30
Kevin Day (toasty dragondata com) 

Huh Huh Huh

Got anything to say for yourself?


Why does Bitrebel have 65+ Ignores?
Because Bitrebel says things that some people do not want YOU to hear.
bitrebel
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 364


View Profile
June 21, 2011, 02:09:34 AM
 #181

This MUST be YOU, correct?

DragonData.com - Welcome to Your.org
Domain Name: DRAGONDATA.COM Registrant: N/A Kevin Day ( ) P.O. Box 326. Round Lake Beach Illinois,60073. US Tel. +1.3126281200. Creation Date: 03-Apr-1997 ...
whois.domaintools.com/dragondata.com


So you are a 100% confirmed Security IT and Hacker.

I knew you were smart, but apparently not smart enough to outsmart everyone else.

We'll be awaiting your response and explanation. And it had better be good!



Why does Bitrebel have 65+ Ignores?
Because Bitrebel says things that some people do not want YOU to hear.
alexanderanon
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 210



View Profile
June 21, 2011, 02:14:28 AM
 #182

The response to this whole affair is outrageous. Involvement by a group of thugs who are presently considering legislation to ban the use of a peaceful and volunteer form of exchange? Desecration of individual rights and contractual terms for the sake of the public bitcoin community? The public be damned! Kevin has every right to every single bitcoin he earned in a legitimate trade, under contract terms that stipulated Mt. Gox in NO WAY a central authority with the power to reverse trades. Mt. Gox has provided no remotely convincing evidence to connect Kevin with the hacker, a hacker who could very well be affiliated with Mt. Gox. On top of that, the evidence and arguments put forth by Mt. Gox are extremely implausible. Who the hell would leave 500,000 bitcoins ON MT. GOX, and keep it so poorly secured? Or perhaps...and far more plausibly, it was well secured --- but Mt. Gox had secret affiliation and access.

There are dozens of avenues by which Mt. Gox could plausibly engage in fraudulent behavior to the ends we've seen in these recent revelations. There are zero thus far proposed that could at all plausibly connect Kevin with the perpetrator.

Kevin has every right to his coins, and Mt. Gox must release all necessary information to shed as much light on this situation as possible, if it hopes to ever connect Kevin with anything malicious, or if it hopes to regain any legitimacy in the eyes of the bitcoin community. Involvement by thugs with guns is not a solution. It merely provides illusory legitimacy to Mt. Gox's desired action --- grand theft of Kevin's property.

The outrageous response witnessed here on these forums is tangible evidence as to the inseparability of bitcoin and anarchocapitalism. I propose that all those who adhere to the principles of voluntary interaction identify themselves on the forum, and engage only with those who share these principles. All statists spell disaster for Bitcoin.
chihlidog
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 28


View Profile
June 21, 2011, 02:22:24 AM
 #183

Hey Kevin Day....

Are you the same Kevin Day that wrote the Book, "Inside the Security Mind" - Making the Tough Decisions Huh
http://www.amazon.com/Inside-Security-Mind-Making-Decisions/dp/0131118293

Product Description
Inside the Security Mind: Making the Tough Decisions, by security expert Kevin Day, teaches information officers how to think like a top security guru. Using real-world examples, Day explains how to reduce any security problem to a set of essential principles, making it easy to arrive at optimal solutions. Includes practical material on enterprise security issues and measures.
From the Back Cover

    "This is a really good book ... it spells out the motherhood and apple pie of information security in a highly readable way."

—Warwick Ford, CTO, VeriSign, Inc.

    "An excellent security read! Breaks down a complex concept into a simple and easy-to-understand concept."

—Vivek Shivananda, President

    Redefine your organization's information security
    Learn to think and act like a top security guru!
    Understand the founding principles of security itself and make better decisions
    Make your security solutions more effective, easily manageable, and less costly!

Make smarter, more informed security decisions for your companyOrganizations today commit ever-increasing resources to information security, but are scarcely more secure than they were four or five years ago! By treating information security like an ordinary technological practice—that is, by throwing money, a handful of the latest technologies, and a lineup of gurus at the problem—they invariably wind up with expensive, but deeply flawed, solutions. The only way out of this trap is to change one's way of thinking about security: to grasp the reasoning, philosophy, and logic that underlie all successful security efforts.

In Inside the Security Mind: Making the Tough Decisions, security expert Kevin Day teaches you how to approach information security the way the top gurus do—as an art, rather than a collection of technologies. By applying this discipline, your solutions will be more secure and less burdensome in time, expense, and effort. The first part of the book explains the practice of breaking security decisions down into a set of simple rules. These rules may then be applied to make solid security decisions in almost any environment. In the second part, Day uses a series of practical examples to illustrate exactly how the discipline works in practice. Additional material covers:

    Designing an enterprise security plan, including perimeter/firewall and Internal defenses, application, system, and hardware security
    Ongoing security measures—recurring audits, vulnerability maintenance, logging and monitoring, and incident response, plus risk assessment
    Choosing between open source and proprietary solutions; and wired, wireless, and virtual private networks

This book is essential reading for anyone working to keep information secure. Technical and non-technical IT professionals alike can apply Day's concepts and strategies to become security gurus, while seasoned practitioners will benefit from the unique and effective presentation of the essential security practices.

In light of this - I must take a step back and declare myself an idiot for posting everything I have regarding this whole mess. I dont know what to think at this point. Except that is some great detective work, and if it's one and the same Kevin, well, shit. Both him and mtgox need to rot in the same pit.

Im not sure why anyone would want to, but just in case, I humbly and very gratefully accept donations at: 1Kn6NFFE4EqrhN1pgBDoBQEvSA5c3tdqhi
toasty
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 81


View Profile
June 21, 2011, 02:22:44 AM
 #184

I am not the author of that book.

toasty@dragondata.com is me though.
irishmick
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 134


View Profile
June 21, 2011, 02:50:23 AM
 #185

For a bunch of smart people everyone here really jumps to conclusions based on what? 6 lines mtgox could have typed? As far as I am concerned until someone actually produces legitimate evidence, all toasty is guilty of is being in the right place at the right time....




http://doge.crypto49er.com:9555         http://doge-eu.crypto49er.com:9555
Pool donations: DTPgwgDvyDL3vcnJFf33nkhBm6o2ZxVT6G
foggyb
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1344


View Profile
June 21, 2011, 02:54:28 AM
 #186


There's NO WAY to rectify this mess you've gotten into without screwing someone. And despite the decentralized, anarcho-capitalist philosophy underlying this experiment that you all jerk off to at night, you are all scream for litigation.

Just look at yourselves!


Did you imagine that decentralization of power leads to an vacuum of legality, or perhaps a crime-free utopia?

Silly boy.  Cheesy

kjj
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1302



View Profile
June 21, 2011, 02:55:59 AM
 #187

For a bunch of smart people everyone here really jumps to conclusions based on what? 6 lines mtgox could have typed? As far as I am concerned until someone actually produces legitimate evidence, all toasty is guilty of is being in the right place at the right time....

Meh.  Looks like a roughly equal number have jumped to the conclusion that mtgox is stealing their bodily fluids, and they have just as little evidence ( = none at all).

The truth will come out eventually, maybe.  Until then, the forum circlejerk will likely continue at a gradually declining pace.

p2pcoin: a USB/CD/PXE p2pool miner - 1N8ZXx2cuMzqBYSK72X4DAy1UdDbZQNPLf - todo
I routinely ignore posters with paid advertising in their sigs.  You should too.
Rassah
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1680


Director of Bitcoin100


View Profile
June 21, 2011, 02:56:53 AM
 #188

So, judging by the posts on chat, Kevin is not going to return the stolen Bitcoin... Guess that answers that question.

neneko
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 28


View Profile
June 21, 2011, 02:57:53 AM
 #189

Here's an idea. Let's not turn into a creepy mob and try to look up the address of Kevin and post it on these boards because magicaltux want someone to blame for all of this.

That's just an idea though. Being the personal army of the guy too lazy/incompetent to get decent security in place for a site that handled millions of dollars sounds fun too.
fireside
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 28


View Profile
June 21, 2011, 02:58:25 AM
 #190

From all the posts in this thread and all the info gathered by other users not to mention your own words, it is pretty obvious you are the hacker that had caused all this and tried to profit from it. Now that you have been caught and your name is out there you are making up this pitty party story to try and keep your stolen profits. Trying to con all the users of this message board into beleiving you are the victim and big bad mtgox is the bad guy. I think you should be locked up and hope the authorities are looking into this as we speak. I got to hand it to you though, hacking into MtGox, emptying out someones account and buying them back up for .01, then coming on the forum and telling everyone you are the one who tried to buy them, and then asking for pity!? That takes some pretty big balls man.. Two ton balls.... Or just plain stupidity.. Its hard to tell.. Should of just kept your mouth shut, hung low, and hoped you wouldnt get caught. You know the authorities already have your name and address... FBI is probably monitoring your bank accounts, and sitting in a windowless van down the road as we speak... If i were you i would cut up your credit cards, grow a beard, shave your head, buy a false id with your stolen BTC, and rent a boat to the Cayman Islands...
bitrebel
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 364


View Profile
June 21, 2011, 03:01:11 AM
 #191

From all the posts in this thread and all the info gathered by other users not to mention your own words, it is pretty obvious you are the hacker that had caused all this and tried to profit from it. Now that you have been caught and your name is out there you are making up this pitty party story to try and keep your stolen profits. Trying to con all the users of this message board into beleiving you are the victim and big bad mtgox is the bad guy. I think you should be locked up and hope the authorities are looking into this as we speak. I got to hand it to you though, hacking into MtGox, emptying out someones account and buying them back up for .01, then coming on the forum and telling everyone you are the one who tried to buy them, and then asking for pity!? That takes some pretty big balls man.. Two ton balls.... Or just plain stupidity.. Its hard to tell.. Should of just kept your mouth shut, hung low, and hoped you wouldnt get caught. You know the authorities already have your name and address... FBI is probably monitoring your bank accounts, and sitting in a windowless van down the road as we speak... If i were you i would cut up your credit cards, grow a beard, shave your head, buy a false id with your stolen BTC, and rent a boat to the Cayman Islands...

Yep. he be going to jail!

Why does Bitrebel have 65+ Ignores?
Because Bitrebel says things that some people do not want YOU to hear.
AtomicTrader
Jr. Member
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 34


View Profile
June 21, 2011, 03:03:45 AM
 #192

Let Kevin keep the few btc he managed to get out (i.e. steal) and rollback the trades, with MtGox taking the loss on the lost BTC. That's the only solution that will work.
BitcoinPorn
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 574


Posts: 69


View Profile WWW
June 21, 2011, 03:06:26 AM
 #193


chuckypalumbo
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 151


View Profile
June 21, 2011, 03:06:56 AM
 #194

So let me get this right. An account was hacked, some guy put in a bunch of orders at basically a penny and was able to make out with 600 plus bitcoins valued at well over $7000 and he's bitching about it because he didn't illegally become a millionaire at the expense of someone else that perpetrated a crime? Wow...............take your free $7000 and run, I mean seriously?
irishmick
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 134


View Profile
June 21, 2011, 03:08:16 AM
 #195

For a bunch of smart people everyone here really jumps to conclusions based on what? 6 lines mtgox could have typed? As far as I am concerned until someone actually produces legitimate evidence, all toasty is guilty of is being in the right place at the right time....

Meh.  Looks like a roughly equal number have jumped to the conclusion that mtgox is stealing their bodily fluids, and they have just as little evidence ( = none at all).

The truth will come out eventually, maybe.  Until then, the forum circlejerk will likely continue at a gradually declining pace.

lol I think both sides attacking are wrong. I haven't seen sufficient evidence that says either side is right. Just a bunch of conjecture and speculation... ;o)

http://doge.crypto49er.com:9555         http://doge-eu.crypto49er.com:9555
Pool donations: DTPgwgDvyDL3vcnJFf33nkhBm6o2ZxVT6G
Alik
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 28


View Profile
June 21, 2011, 03:08:31 AM
 #196

Talk to a lawyer, preferably one specialising in securities. Who knows you might get a settlement from mtgox and rest of the community terms and conditions.

You will not find any justice even if you deserve it on the forum.





I'm not sure how that would help. I don't see how you can launch a "securities" investigation into a trade platform that trades something technically, no different then baseball cards as far as giving monetary value. Their are places you can buy/bid on baseball cards (like MtGox) and companies that give up to date monetary values on baseball cards but if a theft of baseball cards happened, how would you investigate by means of securities law?
evlew
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 407



View Profile
June 21, 2011, 03:14:37 AM
 #197

I got to hand it to you though, hacking into MtGox, emptying out someones account and buying them back up for .01, then coming on the forum and telling everyone you are the one who tried to buy them, and then asking for pity!? That takes some pretty big balls man.. Two ton balls....

fenixosup
Jr. Member
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 32


View Profile
June 21, 2011, 03:18:03 AM
 #198

If a guy steals a truck full of goods, and decides to dump them for cheap, whoever buys those shoes is still committing a crime. I say fuck Kevin and take the coins off him (he seems pretty seedy anyway).
toasty
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 81


View Profile
June 21, 2011, 03:20:57 AM
 #199

From all the posts in this thread and all the info gathered by other users not to mention your own words, it is pretty obvious you are the hacker that had caused all this and tried to profit from it. Now that you have been caught and your name is out there you are making up this pitty party story to try and keep your stolen profits. Trying to con all the users of this message board into beleiving you are the victim and big bad mtgox is the bad guy. I think you should be locked up and hope the authorities are looking into this as we speak. I got to hand it to you though, hacking into MtGox, emptying out someones account and buying them back up for .01, then coming on the forum and telling everyone you are the one who tried to buy them, and then asking for pity!?

Maybe convincing up until there. I had more than one chance to take the money and didn't. I have gone out of my way to prove who I am to the Mt Gox guys. I went on OnlyOneTV with my real name and showing my face. If I did anything illegal, this has to be the worst possible strategy I can imagine for how to proceed. The only evidence that Mt Gox has shown at all is that I logged in around the same time as the bad guy, which... is exactly what I said happened.

I sat down, started checking the markets, then saw the crash start happening moments later. Of course I was logged in when this happened, I have no idea what else anyone expected?

If "OMG THEY LOGGED IN WITHIN 15 MINUTES OF EACH OTHER" is considered proof, every person reading this thread right now is obviously the same person, right?

Anonymous
Guest

June 21, 2011, 03:21:44 AM
 #200

...whoever buys those shoes is still committing a crime.

No, not remotely. As far as the purchaser is concerned, the goods were legitimate. The only criminal is the seller of said shoes due to his fraud and theft.
Maged
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1260


View Profile
June 21, 2011, 03:27:54 AM
 #201

Kevin's story is backed up by MtGox's own feed; and that showed that he could not have made the order before the crash. In fact, 6 people got in before him when the large order finally finished executing - which took 35ish minutes.

neneko
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 28


View Profile
June 21, 2011, 03:39:19 AM
 #202

Kevin's story is backed up by MtGox's own feed; and that showed that he could not have made the order before the crash. In fact, 6 people got in before him when the large order finally finished executing - which took 35ish minutes.
This.

Which of course begs the question of why magicaltux would try to pin this whole thing on someone he knows most likely had nothing to do with the hack. The obvious answer here is that he needed a scapegoat and he needed one fast. The sooner people start blaming Kevin the less heat magicaltux and thus mt gox will have to take. He must know that legally he can't put over any responsibility for this on kevin so I assume he's doing this because he hopes that he can get mt gox back to its former glory after this is over with. I for one am not going to make a single trade there.

The current evidence stacked up again Kevin is that he was logged in when the crash happened and that he's apparently good with computer security. While this is apparently enough to convince some of the lesser minds on these boards I somehow doubt it's something that would hold up in court.
Batouzo
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 70


View Profile
June 21, 2011, 03:43:18 AM
 #203

So let me get this right. An account was hacked, some guy put in a bunch of orders at basically a penny and was able to make out with 600 plus bitcoins valued at well over $7000 and he's bitching about it because he didn't illegally become a millionaire at the expense of someone else that perpetrated a crime? Wow...............take your free $7000 and run, I mean seriously?

This is how it usually works with BTC, buying low and selling high.

It was lower then usual for some traders indeed, but it's not his fault so crazy low offers where placed.
melanarchy
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 22


View Profile
June 21, 2011, 03:46:13 AM
 #204

If a guy steals a truck full of goods, and decides to dump them for cheap, whoever buys those shoes is still committing a crime. I say fuck Kevin and take the coins off him (he seems pretty seedy anyway).
This.

To say "I got extraordinarily lucky and was able to use my wits to help someone perpetrate a crime at the right moment but 'dems da rules' so I should get to keep my ill gotten gains and the system I exploited to get them should be destroyed in the process." is not only incredibly selfish but an untenable position for someone who claims to want to *help* the bitcoin community.

Assuming the sale came from a compromised account, which at this point seems very likely,  "Kevin" either knowingly profited from theft or he was too ignorant to realize the figures he was seeing could only be a bug in the system or the result of something uncouth.

Honestly if someone was claiming they put in a sell order at $100 "just in case" and a bug caused it to go through mt. gox at $0.01 and it caused this event would anybody argue *not* to roll back translations? I can't imagine the "it's important that if our exchanges are bugged we allow the market to collapse" argument holding water.

1aLV7cjRXE89KoychBaGUP8YGm5ZRVNAw - If my info is helpful donations are always welcome.
Rassah
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1680


Director of Bitcoin100


View Profile
June 21, 2011, 03:47:15 AM
 #205

Kevin, regardless of whether you were the original hacker (I don't think you were), a large part of the consensus here is that you did pretty much admit to possessing stolen property. Considering your real name and info is out now (thanks to you yourself), it would probably be in your best interest to wait until things calm down a bit, get in touch with MtGox people, and then PUBLICLY return the funds. Otherwise you'll likely get blacklisted and trolled for years to come. Not saying MtGox people are right, either, but at present only two entities are getting attacked. If I were you, I'd do everything I can to not be one of those any more.
Unless, of course, $12,000 is worth it to have your name remembered and dragged through the mud for the next few years.

myrkul
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 532


FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM


View Profile WWW
June 21, 2011, 03:47:32 AM
 #206

Kevin's story is backed up by MtGox's own feed; and that showed that he could not have made the order before the crash. In fact, 6 people got in before him when the large order finally finished executing - which took 35ish minutes.

OK, Not the hacker.

Still a dick for wanting to keep the BTC.

Kevin. Listen to me: The rollback is happening for one simple reason: It is the easiest way to make as many people as whole as possible. You will get your money back, and may end up ahead by over 600 bitcoins. I am sorry you're not a millionaire. You acted in good faith, as most of us would, to snap up as many of the coins as possible. As it turns out, those coins didn't belong to the person selling them. This means that they go back to the people or person to whom they do belong. It is very likely that MtGox is going to go under from this. I see no reason to ride down with them.

BTC1MYRkuLv4XPBa6bGnYAronz55grPAGcxja
Need Dispute resolution? Public Key ID: 0x11D341CF
No person has the right to initiate force, threat of force, or fraud against another person or their property. VIM VI REPELLERE LICET
Gameover
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 92

NEURAL.CLUB - FIRST SOCIAL ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE


View Profile WWW
June 21, 2011, 03:47:52 AM
 #207

With the amount of money involved here I cannot understand how this cannot go to court.  Kevin if what you say is true call up the most expensive law firm in NY and get the ball rolling, maybe the law is on the side of the rollback, maybe not.  With 5M at stake you bet your ass I would be finding out.  With the nature of bitcoin and international laws and something so unprecedented it needs further examination.

NEURAL.CLUB - FIRST SOCIAL ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE
toasty
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 81


View Profile
June 21, 2011, 03:48:52 AM
 #208

Kevin, regardless of whether you were the original hacker (I don't think you were), a large part of the consensus here is that you did pretty much admit to possessing stolen property. Considering your real name and info is out now (thanks to you yourself), it would probably be in your best interest to wait until things calm down a bit, get in touch with MtGox people, and then PUBLICLY return the funds. Otherwise you'll likely get blacklisted and trolled for years to come. Not saying MtGox people are right, either, but at present only two entities are getting attacked. If I were you, I'd do everything I can to not be one of those any more.
Unless, of course, $12,000 is worth it to have your name remembered and dragged through the mud for the next few years.

I am attempting to arrange that the bitcoins that I am in possession of right now, due to this trade, be held by a neutral third party until everyone can cool down about this.
Rassah
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1680


Director of Bitcoin100


View Profile
June 21, 2011, 03:51:08 AM
 #209

[DELETED cause I was starting to be douchy too]

rograz
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 576


View Profile
June 21, 2011, 03:53:37 AM
 #210

No, not remotely. As far as the purchaser is concerned, the goods were legitimate. The only criminal is the seller of said shoes due to his fraud and theft.

Not in my country, here the purchaser has to make sure the gods aren't stolen or they would be breaking the law if they end up holding stolen gods/property.
Rassah
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1680


Director of Bitcoin100


View Profile
June 21, 2011, 03:54:17 AM
 #211

Kevin, regardless of whether you were the original hacker (I don't think you were), a large part of the consensus here is that you did pretty much admit to possessing stolen property. Considering your real name and info is out now (thanks to you yourself), it would probably be in your best interest to wait until things calm down a bit, get in touch with MtGox people, and then PUBLICLY return the funds. Otherwise you'll likely get blacklisted and trolled for years to come. Not saying MtGox people are right, either, but at present only two entities are getting attacked. If I were you, I'd do everything I can to not be one of those any more.
Unless, of course, $12,000 is worth it to have your name remembered and dragged through the mud for the next few years.

I am attempting to arrange that the bitcoins that I am in possession of right now, due to this trade, be held by a neutral third party until everyone can cool down about this.


AWESOME! You should mention this in your Post #1 in BIG BOLD LETTERS!

MyFarm
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 854


View Profile
June 21, 2011, 03:55:16 AM
 #212

What about THESE possibilities since I still don't believe someone with 500k coins had them in a single, stolen account on Mt Gox.

1.  The person who had 500k bitcoin had those in a personal wallet on his own machine at home.  That machine was compromised.  All the BTC were sent to Mt Gox for sale by the hacker and was a REAL TRADE but of stolen goods.  Do we roll back every trade of someone's coins who had their PERSONAL computer hacked?  Because there are a shitload out there.  Or only the rich people? 

2.  The 500k bitcoin was from the person who released the virus that steals the bitcoin wallet of hundreds of traders such as Allinvain (the guy who got $500k of BTC stolen).  Those 500k bitcoin are from hundreds of people the hacker stole from.  He dumps them on Mt Gox when he smells the authorities starting to track him down and decides to crash the market and run.  A LEGIT trade again, just of stolen goods of hundreds of people.

If THOSE were legit trades but of stolen coins, should the market be rolled back?  If so, it sets a precedent that ALL SUCH FUTURE stolen trades cause a rollback no matter the size.
MyFarm
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 854


View Profile
June 21, 2011, 03:56:31 AM
 #213

Especially since it looks as if MtGox admitted that the compromised account was their main distributed one, meaning Kevin isn't holding stolen property from some single poor sap, but from everyone.
Where did you read this?
Terpie
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 175



View Profile
June 21, 2011, 03:58:30 AM
 #214

I can't believe anyone could honestly think they would be entitled to property that the seller could not legally transfer. If I dock my boat at my marina slip, go on vacation for a month, and during that time some jerkoff finds a spare key, puts up a craigslist ad, shows my boat to someone, and "sells" it, does that mean I lose my boat? Get real man.
Rassah
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1680


Director of Bitcoin100


View Profile
June 21, 2011, 03:59:21 AM
 #215

What about THESE possibilities since I still don't believe someone with 500k coins had them in a single, stolen account on Mt Gox.
*deleted*

I missed part of the live broadcast, but I think MtGox said that the 500k coins was actually form the MtGox account. All the user's coins are actually stored in a single large wallet, and the BTC you see in your account is just an accounting entry. They're no actually yours until you withdraw your amount from the main wallet. So the theft wasn't from some poor schmuck with a bad password, it was from everyone at the same time.

Batouzo
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 70


View Profile
June 21, 2011, 03:59:55 AM
 #216

Still a dick for wanting to keep the BTC.

You seem to like money regulated by some community, lets call it a government since it's governing.
Why at all use bitcoin then.
markietalkie
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 16


View Profile
June 21, 2011, 04:00:42 AM
 #217

Executive summary:

1.) "I took advantage of an extraordinary event that turned out to be initiated by a rogue sell order, not legitimate trading."

2.) "Can I keep it? Look, here's why."

No, sorry. To allow the trade to stand would legitimize the attack, is that what you really want? (Besides bitcoins and dollars, I mean.)


+ 1,000



People are being too emotional. He was just lucky, he's done nothing wrong. If you want someone to blame, blame MtGox security and immature rule of the market. He's earned his pie fair and square.

 *Link Removed*
Terpie
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 175



View Profile
June 21, 2011, 04:01:53 AM
 #218

Still a dick for wanting to keep the BTC.

You seem to like money regulated by some community, lets call it a government since it's governing.
Why at all use bitcoin then.

Because a government that regulates ALL activity is fundamentally different than an exchange that only regulates the people that choose to engage with it. This is simple buddy.
bitbot
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 70



View Profile
June 21, 2011, 04:02:24 AM
 #219

maybe Kevin should run the security for mt.gox

Anonymous BITCOIN Exchange: https://www.TRADEHILL.COM
newMeat1
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 210



View Profile
June 21, 2011, 04:05:01 AM
 #220

Congrats Kevin, you pulled a fast one. I'll only hold it a little bit against you

Phil21
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 154


View Profile
June 21, 2011, 04:13:04 AM
 #221

I missed part of the live broadcast, but I think MtGox said that the 500k coins was actually form the MtGox account. All the user's coins are actually stored in a single large wallet, and the BTC you see in your account is just an accounting entry. They're no actually yours until you withdraw your amount from the main wallet. So the theft wasn't from some poor schmuck with a bad password, it was from everyone at the same time.

I watched the live broadcast, but missed this if it was said.  I don't believe so though.  The only response to the question of "who owned the account that was hacked" I recall was "I can't answer that".   I don't expect them to reveal the name of the person's account, but I did expect a "no it was not mtgox itself, but we cannot reveal our customer's information" or similiar.  Easy answer if what they have been saying (hacked user account) is true.

You've likely simply been reading speculation on the boards that this is the case (perhaps my own speculation, as I believe it to be true).

This is an extremely important detail, and sidestepping the question seems rather shady to me.
Rassah
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1680


Director of Bitcoin100


View Profile
June 21, 2011, 04:16:35 AM
 #222

I missed part of the live broadcast, but I think MtGox said that the 500k coins was actually form the MtGox account. All the user's coins are actually stored in a single large wallet, and the BTC you see in your account is just an accounting entry. They're no actually yours until you withdraw your amount from the main wallet. So the theft wasn't from some poor schmuck with a bad password, it was from everyone at the same time.

I watched the live broadcast, but missed this if it was said.  I don't believe so though.  The only response to the question of "who owned the account that was hacked" I recall was "I can't answer that".   I don't expect them to reveal the name of the person's account, but I did expect a "no it was not mtgox itself, but we cannot reveal our customer's information" or similiar.  Easy answer if what they have been saying (hacked user account) is true.

You've likely simply been reading speculation on the boards that this is the case (perhaps my own speculation, as I believe it to be true).

This is an extremely important detail, and sidestepping the question seems rather shady to me.

I thought I heard it on the broadcast, but I guess I was mistake. Though it would make sense for MtGox to keep all BTC in a single account, and execute trades using just accounting accounts. Actually transferring Bitcoin costs transaction fees, and filling multiple orders will quickly eat up people's trades with tx fees if it was done with actual coins. It may also be that the trade that sold 500k coins wasn't actually selling real coins, just fake IOUs, in which case the rollback is even easier and more justified.

alexanderanon
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 210



View Profile
June 21, 2011, 04:19:23 AM
 #223

Notice how flippantly the detractors of Kevin come to their conclusions. "Sounds like a jerk. Let's steal his bitcoins. Oh...that doesn't sound so good....how about...for the good of the the bitcoin community!"

It's so easy to just tell someone else to steal his coins. Why don't you personally go to his address, put a gun to his head, and demand his laptop? It's not quite the same when you think about it that way, huh? Do you guys sneer at lottery winners too? Jealous bastards.
myrkul
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 532


FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM


View Profile WWW
June 21, 2011, 04:20:04 AM
 #224

Still a dick for wanting to keep the BTC.

You seem to like money regulated by some community, lets call it a government since it's governing.
Why at all use bitcoin then.

Because a government that regulates ALL activity is fundamentally different than an exchange that only regulates the people that choose to engage with it. This is simple buddy.

Exactly. If he had bought bitcoins at the same time from, say, Tradehill, I wouldn't be going after those. Only the ones purchased (in good faith!) from a fraudulent trade. No different than buying stolen goods, except, hey presto, he gets his money back. All of this really just seems like him being butthurt about not being a millionaire (which I totally understand.)

BTC1MYRkuLv4XPBa6bGnYAronz55grPAGcxja
Need Dispute resolution? Public Key ID: 0x11D341CF
No person has the right to initiate force, threat of force, or fraud against another person or their property. VIM VI REPELLERE LICET
fireside
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 28


View Profile
June 21, 2011, 04:20:33 AM
 #225

Kevin, regardless of whether you were the original hacker (I don't think you were), a large part of the consensus here is that you did pretty much admit to possessing stolen property. Considering your real name and info is out now (thanks to you yourself), it would probably be in your best interest to wait until things calm down a bit, get in touch with MtGox people, and then PUBLICLY return the funds. Otherwise you'll likely get blacklisted and trolled for years to come. Not saying MtGox people are right, either, but at present only two entities are getting attacked. If I were you, I'd do everything I can to not be one of those any more.
Unless, of course, $12,000 is worth it to have your name remembered and dragged through the mud for the next few years.

I am attempting to arrange that the bitcoins that I am in possession of right now, due to this trade, be held by a neutral third party until everyone can cool down about this.


AWESOME! You should mention this in your Post #1 in BIG BOLD LETTERS!

Lol. This isnt awesome. All he is saying is he is giving them to a friend to hold onto until the cops stop snooping so they are not in his possesion. then after people forget aobut this and move onto the next thing that happens he will be home free and cash in the illegal coins.
MoonShadow
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1708