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Author Topic: I'm MtGox, here's my side.  (Read 35091 times)
MagicalTux
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June 20, 2011, 11:13:03 PM
 #1

Hi,

Since lots of people have been posting on http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=20207.0 let me give you some infos too. The cat is out, so let's just as well put as much infos as I can. Kevin asked publicly me to reply, so here is my reply response.

Kevin has no buy order as of the day preceding the attack. Now, he bought 258k bitcoins at 0.01 USD per bitcoin (0.0101 if you include our 0.65% fee).

Let me show you the login logs for our hacker guy on his account full of bitcoins, and Kevin:

Code:
[2011/06/19 05:00:02] Hacker login on hacked account
[2011/06/19 05:12:10] Kevin login on his account
[2011/06/19 05:15:10] Hacker login on hacked account
[2011/06/19 05:15:36] Hacker starts selling
[2011/06/19 05:22:35] Hacker login on hacked account
[2011/06/19 05:45:39] Hacker login on hacked account
[2011/06/19 06:08:18] Hacker login on hacked account

Kevin had only one chance that day to place his 0.01 buy order. So either he had a lot of luck, and somehow knew it was the right time to place a 0.01 buy order, or something smells fishy in there. It's not up to me to decide, but I will report this as it has become a public matter.

Therefore I choose option 4:

Option 4: Mt Gox signals this to the competent authorities
+ We are safe
+ We may even have a chance of catching our hacker if Kevin knows him
+ We can rollback without having to worry
- Having to deal with FBI, provide logs and proof

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June 20, 2011, 11:14:13 PM
 #2

Hi,

Since lots of people have been posting on http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=20207.0 let me give you some infos too. The cat is out, so let's just as well put as much infos as I can. Kevin asked publicly me to reply, so here is my reply response.

Kevin has no buy order as of the day preceding the attack. Now, he bought 258k bitcoins at 0.01 USD per bitcoin (0.0101 if you include our 0.65% fee).

Let me show you the login logs for our hacker guy on his account full of bitcoins, and Kevin:

Code:
[2011/06/19 05:00:02] Hacker login
[2011/06/19 05:12:10] Kevin login
[2011/06/19 05:15:10] Hacker login
[2011/06/19 05:22:35] Hacker login
[2011/06/19 05:45:39] Hacker login
[2011/06/19 06:08:18] Hacker login

Kevin had only one chance that day to place his 0.01 buy order.

Therefore I choose option 4:

Option 4: Mt Gox signals this to the competent authorities
+ We are safe
+ We may even have a chance of catching our hacker if Kevin knows him
+ We can rollback without having to worry
- Having to deal with FBI, provide logs and proof


We don't give a shit.

You were stupid and ill equipped, and you should admit defeat.

EDIT: You should be glad you have the admins of this site on your side, they've suppressed a shitload of dissent about what absolute joke your little site was.
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June 20, 2011, 11:16:27 PM
 #3

We don't give a shit.

You were stupid and ill equipped, and you should admit defeat.
that was a nice and constructive post.

also, quoting the OP = noob

It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.

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June 20, 2011, 11:16:51 PM
 #4


Kevin has no buy order as of the day preceding the attack. Kevin had only one chance that day to place his 0.01 buy order.

Therefore I choose option 4:

Option 4: Mt Gox signals this to the competent authorities
+ We are safe
+ We may even have a chance of catching our hacker if Kevin knows him
+ We can rollback without having to worry
- Having to deal with FBI, provide logs and proof


Wow..just WOW..!!!

Thanks for replying MT.

As a MtGox trader I'm behind you 1000% on Option 4 too.

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June 20, 2011, 11:16:56 PM
 #5

Hi,

Since lots of people have been posting on http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=20207.0 let me give you some infos too. The cat is out, so let's just as well put as much infos as I can. Kevin asked publicly me to reply, so here is my reply response.

Kevin has no buy order as of the day preceding the attack. Now, he bought 258k bitcoins at 0.01 USD per bitcoin (0.0101 if you include our 0.65% fee).

Let me show you the login logs for our hacker guy on his account full of bitcoins, and Kevin:

Code:
[2011/06/19 05:00:02] Hacker login
[2011/06/19 05:12:10] Kevin login
[2011/06/19 05:15:10] Hacker login
[2011/06/19 05:22:35] Hacker login
[2011/06/19 05:45:39] Hacker login
[2011/06/19 06:08:18] Hacker login

Kevin had only one chance that day to place his 0.01 buy order.

Therefore I choose option 4:

Option 4: Mt Gox signals this to the competent authorities
+ We are safe
+ We may even have a chance of catching our hacker if Kevin knows him
+ We can rollback without having to worry
- Having to deal with FBI, provide logs and proof


We don't give a shit.

You were stupid and ill equipped, and you should admit defeat.

We don't give a shit about you either.

Mt. Gox we are rooting for you guys to get back in the game!
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June 20, 2011, 11:17:40 PM
 #6

Mt Gox should not have been compromised, but the reality here is that Kevin was in possession of stolen property and is now knowingly in possession of it. The whole situation sucks, but the trades do need to be rolled back.
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June 20, 2011, 11:18:24 PM
 #7

Hi,

Since lots of people have been posting on http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=20207.0 let me give you some infos too. The cat is out, so let's just as well put as much infos as I can. Kevin asked publicly me to reply, so here is my reply response.

Kevin has no buy order as of the day preceding the attack. Now, he bought 258k bitcoins at 0.01 USD per bitcoin (0.0101 if you include our 0.65% fee).

Let me show you the login logs for our hacker guy on his account full of bitcoins, and Kevin:

Code:
[2011/06/19 05:00:02] Hacker login
[2011/06/19 05:12:10] Kevin login
[2011/06/19 05:15:10] Hacker login
[2011/06/19 05:22:35] Hacker login
[2011/06/19 05:45:39] Hacker login
[2011/06/19 06:08:18] Hacker login

Kevin had only one chance that day to place his 0.01 buy order.

Therefore I choose option 4:

Option 4: Mt Gox signals this to the competent authorities
+ We are safe
+ We may even have a chance of catching our hacker if Kevin knows him
+ We can rollback without having to worry
- Having to deal with FBI, provide logs and proof


We don't give a shit.

You were stupid and ill equipped, and you should admit defeat.

We don't give a shit about you either.

Mt. Gox we are rooting for you guys to get back in the game!

And we don't give a shit about us not giving a shit, either.

It's not giving a shits all the way down.
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June 20, 2011, 11:18:31 PM
 #8

Hi,

Since lots of people have been posting on http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=20207.0 let me give you some infos too. The cat is out, so let's just as well put as much infos as I can. Kevin asked publicly me to reply, so here is my reply response.

Kevin has no buy order as of the day preceding the attack. Now, he bought 258k bitcoins at 0.01 USD per bitcoin (0.0101 if you include our 0.65% fee).

Let me show you the login logs for our hacker guy on his account full of bitcoins, and Kevin:

Code:
[2011/06/19 05:00:02] Hacker login
[2011/06/19 05:12:10] Kevin login
[2011/06/19 05:15:10] Hacker login
[2011/06/19 05:22:35] Hacker login
[2011/06/19 05:45:39] Hacker login
[2011/06/19 06:08:18] Hacker login

Kevin had only one chance that day to place his 0.01 buy order.

Therefore I choose option 4:

Option 4: Mt Gox signals this to the competent authorities
+ We are safe
+ We may even have a chance of catching our hacker if Kevin knows him
+ We can rollback without having to worry
- Having to deal with FBI, provide logs and proof


We don't give a shit.

You were stupid and ill equipped, and you should admit defeat.

This is my take as well. The fact is that you were compromised. We've all seen absolute proof. When you decided you were going to move into real commodities of significant value, along with seeing dollar signs, you should have made SURE you were secure. This is on you. Most people will cut you a break, but you were lax on your security. YOu saw $ signs, got greedy, and didnt take necessary precautions.

Im not sure why anyone would want to, but just in case, I humbly and very gratefully accept donations at: 1Kn6NFFE4EqrhN1pgBDoBQEvSA5c3tdqhi
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June 20, 2011, 11:19:20 PM
 #9

I believe MagicalTux.

My personality type: INTJ - please forgive my weaknesses (Not naturally in tune with others feelings; may be insensitive at times, tend to respond to conflict with logic and reason, tend to believe I'm always right)

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June 20, 2011, 11:20:09 PM
 #10

What is this supposed to indicate?  That Kevin put his sell order in before the selloff began, rather than during or after the 30-some minute trade finished up, like he said?
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June 20, 2011, 11:20:53 PM
 #11

Let me show you the login logs for our hacker guy on his account full of bitcoins, and Kevin:

Code:
[2011/06/19 05:00:02] Hacker login
[2011/06/19 05:12:10] Kevin login
[2011/06/19 05:15:10] Hacker login
[2011/06/19 05:22:35] Hacker login
[2011/06/19 05:45:39] Hacker login
[2011/06/19 06:08:18] Hacker login
I don't understand. Which account? Kevin and the hacker used the same account?
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June 20, 2011, 11:21:19 PM
 #12

- Having to deal with FBI, provide logs and proof


Need more CIA in Bitcoin, the free and libertarian money for everyone!

Auditor gets all the passwords, CIA then gets all the logs?
How much information will be given to whom exactly? What about any kind of banking privacy - I hope this will be handled better then up to date?

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June 20, 2011, 11:21:19 PM
 #13

Quote
The fact is that you were compromised. We've all seen absolute proof. When you decided you were going to move into real commodities of significant value, along with seeing dollar signs, you should have made SURE you were secure. This is on you. Most people will cut you a break, but you were lax on your security. YOu saw $ signs, got greedy, and didnt take necessary precautions.


Good job you were here to remind him too, otherwise where would we be?
MagicalTux
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June 20, 2011, 11:21:53 PM
 #14

We don't give a shit.

You were stupid and ill equipped, and you should admit defeat.

This is my take as well. The fact is that you were compromised. We've all seen absolute proof. When you decided you were going to move into real commodities of significant value, along with seeing dollar signs, you should have made SURE you were secure. This is on you. Most people will cut you a break, but you were lax on your security. YOu saw $ signs, got greedy, and didnt take necessary precautions.

If you think installing new securities and recoding everything can be done instantly. Mt.Gox had a growth far too fast to give us enough time for this, and we did our best to fix every found problem.

In the end however the accounts were leaked because of something completely different...

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June 20, 2011, 11:23:23 PM
 #15

Let me show you the login logs for our hacker guy on his account full of bitcoins, and Kevin:

Code:
[2011/06/19 05:00:02] Hacker login
[2011/06/19 05:12:10] Kevin login
[2011/06/19 05:15:10] Hacker login
[2011/06/19 05:22:35] Hacker login
[2011/06/19 05:45:39] Hacker login
[2011/06/19 06:08:18] Hacker login
I don't understand. Which account? Kevin and the hacker used the same account?

Yeah Please Explain this Jargon, And what is it that you're implying by it?

Stan?! STAN?!?!
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June 20, 2011, 11:23:29 PM
 #16

Is there any ETA as to when mtgox.com will be operational again?

Thanks
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June 20, 2011, 11:23:38 PM
 #17

Let me show you the login logs for our hacker guy on his account full of bitcoins, and Kevin:

Code:
[2011/06/19 05:00:02] Hacker login
[2011/06/19 05:12:10] Kevin login
[2011/06/19 05:15:10] Hacker login
[2011/06/19 05:22:35] Hacker login
[2011/06/19 05:45:39] Hacker login
[2011/06/19 06:08:18] Hacker login

Kevin had only one chance that day to place his 0.01 buy order. So either he had a lot of luck, and somehow knew it was the right time to place a 0.01 buy order, or something smells fishy in there. It's not up to me to decide, but I will report this as it has become a public matter.

Therefore I choose option 4:

Option 4: Mt Gox signals this to the competent authorities
+ We are safe
+ We may even have a chance of catching our hacker if Kevin knows him
+ We can rollback without having to worry
- Having to deal with FBI, provide logs and proof

I really want to believe that Kevin is telling the truth, and that he is just an innocent bystander in all of this.

But under the circumstances, and considering that we are talking about (maybe) millions of dollars, I can understand why you would be suspicious and want it properly investigated.

Here's hoping that they catch the guy, and also that Kevin isn't involved.

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June 20, 2011, 11:24:28 PM
 #18

What is this supposed to indicate?  That Kevin put his sell order in before the selloff began, rather than during or after the 30-some minute trade finished up, like he said?

This indicates that Kevin put that buy order for 0.01 almost an hour before the hacker started selling off everything. Which is a bit suspicious, I mean, who puts in buy orders for one cents, and $3000 worth of it to boot?
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June 20, 2011, 11:24:32 PM
 #19

What is this supposed to indicate?  That Kevin put his sell order in before the selloff began, rather than during or after the 30-some minute trade finished up, like he said?

Hey, doesn't matter either way.

THEY'RE GETTING THE AUTHORITIES INVOLVED.

And the authorities will be like "oh, so you were running what?  

A securities exchange?

 A what exchange?  

Ok, so you held the equivalent of multiple millions of dollars on your site?

Ok, and then you just, GAVE your ENTIRE database to a third party?  

Ok, and did you verify the absolute security of this third party?

You didn't...no, you didn't."

And they go from there.

MagicalTux, you are a fucking idiot, and should have saved your breath and your time and go simper away while trying to salvage your failed little pathetic website.
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June 20, 2011, 11:25:55 PM
 #20

Let me show you the login logs for our hacker guy on his account full of bitcoins, and Kevin:

Code:
[2011/06/19 05:00:02] Hacker login
[2011/06/19 05:12:10] Kevin login
[2011/06/19 05:15:10] Hacker login
[2011/06/19 05:22:35] Hacker login
[2011/06/19 05:45:39] Hacker login
[2011/06/19 06:08:18] Hacker login
I don't understand. Which account? Kevin and the hacker used the same account?

Yeah Please Explain this Jargon, And what is it that you're implying by it?

He is saying that Kevin logged in 12 minutes after the attacker logged in to start the attack.  Not damning by itself, and almost certainly a coincidence, but still a connection that needs to be followed up, particularly in light of how it all played out.

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June 20, 2011, 11:27:37 PM
 #21

Let me show you the login logs for our hacker guy on his account full of bitcoins, and Kevin:

Code:
[2011/06/19 05:00:02] Hacker login
[2011/06/19 05:12:10] Kevin login
[2011/06/19 05:15:10] Hacker login
[2011/06/19 05:22:35] Hacker login
[2011/06/19 05:45:39] Hacker login
[2011/06/19 06:08:18] Hacker login
I don't understand. Which account? Kevin and the hacker used the same account?

Yeah Please Explain this Jargon, And what is it that you're implying by it?

He is saying that Kevin logged in 12 minutes after the attacker logged in to start the attack.  Not damning by itself, and almost certainly a coincidence, but still a connection that needs to be followed up, particularly in light of how it all played out.

And placed a buy order at 0.01 USD per btc.

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June 20, 2011, 11:28:04 PM
 #22

We don't give a shit.

You were stupid and ill equipped, and you should admit defeat.

This is my take as well. The fact is that you were compromised. We've all seen absolute proof. When you decided you were going to move into real commodities of significant value, along with seeing dollar signs, you should have made SURE you were secure. This is on you. Most people will cut you a break, but you were lax on your security. YOu saw $ signs, got greedy, and didnt take necessary precautions.

If you think installing new securities and recoding everything can be done instantly. Mt.Gox had a growth far too fast to give us enough time for this, and we did our best to fix every found problem.

In the end however the accounts were leaked because of something completely different...

You knew you were dealing with people's money. Shit gets awfully real awfully fast when money is involved. Ive seen you blame it on your auditor, ok, fine. Then he's to blame. You hired him. Take responsibility. Your post also indicates you were trying to fix vulnerabilities you knew you had and knew you werent able to keep up. Was your userbase ever informed of this so perhaps other precautions could be taken by the clients?

Im not sure why anyone would want to, but just in case, I humbly and very gratefully accept donations at: 1Kn6NFFE4EqrhN1pgBDoBQEvSA5c3tdqhi
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June 20, 2011, 11:28:50 PM
 #23

I'm on Gox's side.  Every network/site is vulnerable in some way.  In this case, it was through a trusted user.

While Gox may have granted more access to that user than they should have, it was certainly not grossly irresponsible of them to do so.  

Look at how many Sony properties have been hacked, and how many more "experts" they have in their employ, with huge amounts of revenue/profits.  

How about RSA?  They are a company that is pretty much 100% focused on security and represents the de facto standard in two-factor authentication.  Their entire RSA ID product was compromised and caused Lockheed Martin to be compromised as well.

And you guys are getting upset at Gox for a auditor not securing his laptop and resulting in a bunch of illegitimate trades that are completely reversible, with Gox eating the non-reversible damages?

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June 20, 2011, 11:29:01 PM
 #24

Disappointing response.

I applaud the decision to go to the authorities.  This is good, however I do want the phone number of the "competent" authority you speak of, when it comes to computer crime Smiley

The "evidence" you posted is misleading at best.  You forgot to paste all the other (hundreds? thousands?) of logins that also by chance happened to have been made during the same timeframe.  I'd be willing to bet, if you keep logs, you'll see a lot of attempted trade requests by some of those logins as well for around the same price!

And, you are absolutely NOT safe, this is categorically proven by the uh... 500,000 bitcoins stored in a single location that were stolen.  That you would state such a thing is absolutely ridiculous, and shows your complete hubris.  I predict many lulz will be had while you're still in business, due to that epicly stupid and baiting statement.  You have thrown down the gauntlet, hopefully (for bitcoins sake!) you can back those words up!  I can only hope my prediction does not come true, as I see bitcoins value quickly dropping if it's major services are operated in such a manner.

I expected at least a bit of humility, I guess.  Keep stating it's a simple leaked password issue, and perhaps you can get everyone to believe you?
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June 20, 2011, 11:29:10 PM
 #25

I'm just imagining all the hungry journalists/bloggers/reporters watching this thread, waiting for juicy things to come out.

Carry on guys.  Cheesy
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June 20, 2011, 11:29:17 PM
 #26


Option 4: Mt Gox signals this to the competent authorities


Great everyone!

Nothing left to worry about.  The authorities are being notified.

Let's pray none of your transactions can be traced through the block chain to addresses linked to Silk Road, or your favorite flavor of child pornography dealer.

This is a good thing for bitcoin, after all.

The markets are doing fine! We're gonna have the Law on our side before long, and MagicalTux will be our vanguard!
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June 20, 2011, 11:29:39 PM
 #27

What is this supposed to indicate?  That Kevin put his sell order in before the selloff began, rather than during or after the 30-some minute trade finished up, like he said?

It indicates Kevin logged in 10 minutes after the sell-off began and put in his buy order for 0.01c - now one could assume from that either:

A. He had inside knowledge and could even be involved in the scam (and could even know the hacker)

or

B. It was pure coincidence he logged in at the same time and just happened to put in his 0.01c buy order which didnt exist prior to this login and he knew nothing about what was about to occur

Now if I was a gambling man, which I am, I'd put my money on option A.


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June 20, 2011, 11:29:58 PM
 #28

We don't give a shit.

You were stupid and ill equipped, and you should admit defeat.

EDIT: You should be glad you have the admins of this site on your side, they've suppressed a shitload of dissent about what absolute joke your little site was.

First of all, we? We, who? I am a mtgox user, have been for a long time (just look up my alias there on the leaked db) and while I did move substantial amounts of money and coins with it (to my own relative values, of course) all the issues I have ever encountered were taken care of with the highest level of professional attention.

So 'most of us', or even 'some of us', or better yet 'me and some other guy in the forum don't give a shit' would be the better way to put it... I WANT to know what happened from all angles, and I do give a shit because:

'absolute joke your little site was' is probably right on the money. It is/was a sad little joke of a site, and that is why it never got any traction, or volume. Hell, if they hadn't forced you at gun point to use it, you wouldn't even know it existed...

Don't like it? Don't use it. Want assurance? That is fair, but no statement on the site ever assured anything to anyone, and with that mtgox has always honored their responsibility no matter what. I'm sure they could just run away with the current wallet and not have to work again, but instead you see a great service that suffers the most imho from not having had competition for a long time. That is changing, which is great for everyone, but I'm sticking with mtgox for as long as they keep the service standard they had so far.
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June 20, 2011, 11:30:12 PM
 #29

Seems like "option 4" taken by mtgox is quite reasonable. Most businesses in this position would do something very similar.

-
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June 20, 2011, 11:30:24 PM
 #30

What FBI? Aren't you in Japan?
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June 20, 2011, 11:30:51 PM
 #31


This is my take as well. The fact is that you were compromised. We've all seen absolute proof. When you decided you were going to move into real commodities of significant value, along with seeing dollar signs, you should have made SURE you were secure. This is on you. Most people will cut you a break, but you were lax on your security. YOu saw $ signs, got greedy, and didnt take necessary precautions.


Yeah, all professional enterprise sites make super secret double sure that they are secure.  The really big dogs call "no breakies" before they go online.


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June 20, 2011, 11:30:56 PM
 #32

I'm on Gox's side.  Every network/site is vulnerable in some way.  In this case, it was through a trusted user.

While Gox may have granted more access to that user than they should have, it was certainly not grossly irresponsible of them to do so.  

Look at how many Sony properties have been hacked, and how many more "experts" they have in their employ, with huge amounts of revenue/profits.  

How about RSA?  They are a company that is pretty much 100% focused on security and represents the de facto standard in two-factor authentication.  Their entire RSA ID product was compromised and caused Lockheed Martin to be compromised as well.

And you guys are getting upset at Gox for a auditor not securing his laptop and resulting in a bunch of illegitimate trades that are completely reversible, with Gox eating the non-reversible damages?



EXCEPT MT GOX WAS SUPPOSEDLY A FINANCIAL MARKET.

They are held to a different standard BY LAW, than some shit like PSN.

Glad to see you have something to put your faith in. Keep praying, cutie.
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June 20, 2011, 11:31:13 PM
 #33

Are you REALLY trying to imply Kevin was involved with the hacker?  WOW!  Just wow.  I too logged in minutes after the hacker because I saw the market crashing and tried to get in a buy order.  I unfortunately could not but could just as easily been Kevin.  Am I going to be investigated by the FBI now, too?

I don't believe there was ever a hacker.  Let's see proof that this wasn't a bug in your code or someone at your company screwing up big time.  I also think the bitcoin account was YOURS.  HOW someone with 500k BTC could let their account be compromised needs to be answered as well.
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June 20, 2011, 11:32:18 PM
 #34

I'm on Gox's side.  Every network/site is vulnerable in some way.  In this case, it was through a trusted user.

While Gox may have granted more access to that user than they should have, it was certainly not grossly irresponsible of them to do so.  

Look at how many Sony properties have been hacked, and how many more "experts" they have in their employ, with huge amounts of revenue/profits.  

How about RSA?  They are a company that is pretty much 100% focused on security and represents the de facto standard in two-factor authentication.  Their entire RSA ID product was compromised and caused Lockheed Martin to be compromised as well.

And you guys are getting upset at Gox for a auditor not securing his laptop and resulting in a bunch of illegitimate trades that are completely reversible, with Gox eating the non-reversible damages?



EXCEPT MT GOX WAS SUPPOSEDLY A FINANCIAL MARKET.

They are held to a different standard BY LAW, than some shit like PSN.

Glad to see you have something to put your faith in. Keep praying, cutie.

How about Citigroup then?

You also disregarded RSA/Lockheed, which certainly are held to a higher standard as they are dealing with Classified+ files.
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June 20, 2011, 11:32:37 PM
 #35


Kevin had only one chance that day to place his 0.01 buy order. So either he had a lot of luck, and somehow knew it was the right time to place a 0.01 buy order, or something smells fishy in there. It's not up to me to decide, but I will report this as it has become a public matter.


Occam's Razor would imply luck.  I'm sure that Kevin wasn't the only one desperately trying to place a low-ball buy order as fast as he could, but perhaps he was just the one who clicked at just the right millisecond.  It is also true that, even assuming that Kevin's story is accurate from his perspectives, that he is in possession of stolen property and he knows this.  Unless he is going to try to present evidence to the contrary, this is an accepted given.  Thus it is proper for Kevin to return the funds and permit MtGox to undo the trades as best as he can.  Whether or not MtGox chooses to compensate the owner of the compromised account or not is his own business.  The fact that no policy existed that covered this scenario prior to the event is not relevant.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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June 20, 2011, 11:32:41 PM
 #36

Thread watched.

Just one more vote of support for Mt. Gox.  Mistakes were made, flamers were outraged, but your professionalism in dealing with crises like this has never failed to impress me.  Your customers are holding you to a very high standard in resolving this matter, but I trust you recognize that and will find the most optimal compromise that you can.  Please continue to post as much information about the situation publicly as you are at liberty to divulge.
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June 20, 2011, 11:33:52 PM
 #37

I'm not sure what to make of what has been said in this thread (but i guess i'm not really aware of enough details about the events and things here would make way more sense for me if i knew as much as most other people)


lol, stop posting!!! i can't post my reply you guys keep posting again and the forum shows me your replies before i can post mine!! Xp

(I dont always get new reply notifications, pls send a pm when you think it has happened)

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June 20, 2011, 11:34:09 PM
 #38

What I don't understand is what Kevin logging in around the same time the hacker did, what about everyone else? EVERYONE was logging in around that time, so it seems to me like he is trying to make Kevin look like hes working with the hacker, but yet doesn't post logs of all the others who logged in, and if you can recall everyone was..

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June 20, 2011, 11:34:23 PM
 #39

Let me show you the login logs for our hacker guy on his account full of bitcoins, and Kevin:

Code:
[2011/06/19 05:00:02] Hacker login
[2011/06/19 05:12:10] Kevin login
[2011/06/19 05:15:10] Hacker login
[2011/06/19 05:22:35] Hacker login
[2011/06/19 05:45:39] Hacker login
[2011/06/19 06:08:18] Hacker login
I don't understand. Which account? Kevin and the hacker used the same account?

Yeah Please Explain this Jargon, And what is it that you're implying by it?

He is saying that Kevin logged in 12 minutes after the attacker logged in to start the attack.  Not damning by itself, and almost certainly a coincidence, but still a connection that needs to be followed up, particularly in light of how it all played out.

And placed a buy order at 0.01 USD per btc.

Any other relevant info about Kevins account? Was it dormant brfore this event? did he ever make orders like this before ie. fairly pointlessly low bids just for shits and giggles?

Stan?! STAN?!?!
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June 20, 2011, 11:35:03 PM
 #40

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June 20, 2011, 11:35:23 PM
 #41

What is this supposed to indicate?  That Kevin put his sell order in before the selloff began, rather than during or after the 30-some minute trade finished up, like he said?

Hey, doesn't matter either way.

THEY'RE GETTING THE AUTHORITIES INVOLVED.

And the authorities will be like "oh, so you were running what?  

A securities exchange?

 A what exchange?  

Ok, so you held the equivalent of multiple millions of dollars on your site?

Ok, and then you just, GAVE your ENTIRE database to a third party?  

Ok, and did you verify the absolute security of this third party?

You didn't...no, you didn't."

And they go from there.

MagicalTux, you are a fucking idiot, and should have saved your breath and your time and go simper away while trying to salvage your failed little pathetic website.

You are by far the worst troll here.

Why do you care when it appears you think this of bitcoin...

You got me.

Come claim your prize, 10 billion Linden Do...I mean Floo...I mean Tuli...I mean Bitcoins.
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June 20, 2011, 11:35:33 PM
 #42

What I don't understand is what Kevin logging in around the same time the hacker did, what about everyone else? EVERYONE was logging in around that time, so it seems to me like he is trying to make Kevin look like hes working with the hacker, but yet doesn't post logs of all the others who logged in, and if you can recall everyone was..



this is the first intelligent thing I've seen you post, and I completely agree.

When I saw the market crashing I (and probably many others) logged in immediately.  Some were trying to sell coins during the crash, others were trying to buy cheap coins.

I don't suspect any malfeasance on Kevin's part.
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June 20, 2011, 11:36:07 PM
 #43

Hey, doesn't matter either way.

THEY'RE GETTING THE AUTHORITIES INVOLVED.

And the authorities will be like "oh, so you were running what?  

I think we're going to need to mail MagicalTux a cake with a file in it.

When you dance with a bear, you stop when the bear wants to stop.  


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June 20, 2011, 11:37:51 PM
 #44

What is this supposed to indicate?  That Kevin put his sell order in before the selloff began, rather than during or after the 30-some minute trade finished up, like he said?

Hey, doesn't matter either way.

THEY'RE GETTING THE AUTHORITIES INVOLVED.

And the authorities will be like "oh, so you were running what?  

A securities exchange?

 A what exchange?  

Ok, so you held the equivalent of multiple millions of dollars on your site?

Ok, and then you just, GAVE your ENTIRE database to a third party?  

Ok, and did you verify the absolute security of this third party?

You didn't...no, you didn't."

And they go from there.

MagicalTux, you are a fucking idiot, and should have saved your breath and your time and go simper away while trying to salvage your failed little pathetic website.

You are by far the worst troll here.

Why do you care when it appears you think this of bitcoin...

You got me.

Come claim your prize, 10 billion Linden Do...I mean Floo...I mean Tuli...I mean Bitcoins.

Agree 100%

Synaptic has to be the worst troll on this site.  He poisons nearly every thread.

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June 20, 2011, 11:38:19 PM
 #45

From what you have posted on your site that it was an internal breach, you should be compensating your customers after he rollback in the form of 2 weeks with no fees. That may help you build a little good will back.

Bad things happen and I support the rollback and they way you have handled this so far.

Anyway that's just my opinion.


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June 20, 2011, 11:38:33 PM
 #46

I'm on Gox's side.  Every network/site is vulnerable in some way.  In this case, it was through a trusted user.

While Gox may have granted more access to that user than they should have, it was certainly not grossly irresponsible of them to do so.  

Look at how many Sony properties have been hacked, and how many more "experts" they have in their employ, with huge amounts of revenue/profits.  

How about RSA?  They are a company that is pretty much 100% focused on security and represents the de facto standard in two-factor authentication.  Their entire RSA ID product was compromised and caused Lockheed Martin to be compromised as well.

And you guys are getting upset at Gox for a auditor not securing his laptop and resulting in a bunch of illegitimate trades that are completely reversible, with Gox eating the non-reversible damages?



EXCEPT MT GOX WAS SUPPOSEDLY A FINANCIAL MARKET.

They are held to a different standard BY LAW, than some shit like PSN.

And everyone did know, or at least reasonablely should have known, that MtGox was neither a financial market regulated under the laws of any particular nation nor even international law.  None of the Bitcoin markets are subject to such regulations, and thus such standards do not apply to Bitcoin markets.  At least not as of yet.  Anyone who was operating under any other perspective did so at their own risk.  This is risky business that we engage in, wildcat banking and finance.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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June 20, 2011, 11:38:50 PM
 #47

What I don't understand is what Kevin logging in around the same time the hacker did, what about everyone else? EVERYONE was logging in around that time, so it seems to me like he is trying to make Kevin look like hes working with the hacker, but yet doesn't post logs of all the others who logged in, and if you can recall everyone was..



this is the first intelligent thing I've seen you post, and I completely agree.

When I saw the market crashing I (and probably many others) logged in immediately.  Some were trying to sell coins during the crash, others were trying to buy cheap coins.

I don't suspect any malfeasance on Kevin's part.
he logged in, and placed a 0.01 order 12 minutes BEFORE the hacker started the selloff.

It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.

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June 20, 2011, 11:39:10 PM
 #48

What I don't understand is what Kevin logging in around the same time the hacker did, what about everyone else? EVERYONE was logging in around that time, so it seems to me like he is trying to make Kevin look like hes working with the hacker, but yet doesn't post logs of all the others who logged in, and if you can recall everyone was.

Exactly.  That they would use that information to try to turn the tides against Kevin shows what kind of company this is.  Based upon their "proof" they're going to be reporting a shitload of us to the FBI as suspects.  I know I'm on that list because I saw the market crashing and wanted to jump in.
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June 20, 2011, 11:39:40 PM
 #49

What is this supposed to indicate?  That Kevin put his sell order in before the selloff began, rather than during or after the 30-some minute trade finished up, like he said?

It indicates Kevin logged in 10 minutes after the sell-off began and put in his buy order for 0.01c - now one could assume from that either:


I see the logged in part, I do not see the "buy order for 0.01c" part.  At the same time I mean. Can you/anyone elaborate?
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June 20, 2011, 11:40:24 PM
 #50

Phew. I am gald not to be the guy who brought the dinky site that blew up in popularity along with bitcoin and have to handle millions dollars worth of money everyday.

My site grew up along with bitcoin too but it was just a small unimportant magazine.  Wink

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June 20, 2011, 11:40:51 PM
 #51

I'm on Gox's side.  Every network/site is vulnerable in some way.  In this case, it was through a trusted user.

While Gox may have granted more access to that user than they should have, it was certainly not grossly irresponsible of them to do so.  

Look at how many Sony properties have been hacked, and how many more "experts" they have in their employ, with huge amounts of revenue/profits.  

How about RSA?  They are a company that is pretty much 100% focused on security and represents the de facto standard in two-factor authentication.  Their entire RSA ID product was compromised and caused Lockheed Martin to be compromised as well.

And you guys are getting upset at Gox for a auditor not securing his laptop and resulting in a bunch of illegitimate trades that are completely reversible, with Gox eating the non-reversible damages?



EXCEPT MT GOX WAS SUPPOSEDLY A FINANCIAL MARKET.

They are held to a different standard BY LAW, than some shit like PSN.

And everyone did know, or at least reasonablely should have known, that MtGox was neither a financial market regulated under the laws of any particular nation nor even international law.  None of the Bitcoin markets are subject to such regulations, and thus such standards do not apply to Bitcoin markets.  At least not as of yet.  Anyone who was operating under any other perspective did so at their own risk.  This is risky business that we engage in, wildcat banking and finance.

QED.

Q fucking ED.

And they want to get the Law involved.

I mean, I have to stifle my laughter...
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June 20, 2011, 11:41:00 PM
 #52

he logged in, and placed a 0.01 order 12 minutes BEFORE the hacker started the selloff.
No, all it shows is a login.  Where does it show the placed order?  It doesn't.
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June 20, 2011, 11:41:05 PM
 #53

What I don't understand is what Kevin logging in around the same time the hacker did, what about everyone else? EVERYONE was logging in around that time, so it seems to me like he is trying to make Kevin look like hes working with the hacker, but yet doesn't post logs of all the others who logged in, and if you can recall everyone was..



this is the first intelligent thing I've seen you post, and I completely agree.

When I saw the market crashing I (and probably many others) logged in immediately.  Some were trying to sell coins during the crash, others were trying to buy cheap coins.

I don't suspect any malfeasance on Kevin's part.
he logged in, and placed a 0.01 order 12 minutes BEFORE the hacker started the selloff.

That is not stated.  It is only stated that he logged in 12 minutes after the hacker.  

When did the actual selloff start?  i saw it in the mid teens $ around the :30 minute mark.
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June 20, 2011, 11:41:08 PM
 #54

Hey, doesn't matter either way.

THEY'RE GETTING THE AUTHORITIES INVOLVED.

And the authorities will be like "oh, so you were running what?  

I think we're going to need to mail MagicalTux a cake with a file in it.

When you dance with a bear, you stop when the bear wants to stop.  


I'm pretty sure MT has been one of the more proactive exchange operators when it comes to covering their bases legally ahead of time.  He pays taxes, and just a few days ago he was offering to cooperate with any authorities investigating Silk Road.  The evidence I've seen is that MT has tried to make Mt. Gox as not-under-the-table as possible.
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June 20, 2011, 11:41:50 PM
 #55


Agree 100%

Synaptic has to be the worst troll on this site.  He poisons nearly every thread.

Trust me, Synaptic is definately not the worst troll on this site.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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June 20, 2011, 11:42:36 PM
 #56

Exactly.  That they would use that information to try to turn the tides against Kevin shows what kind of company this is.  Based upon their "proof" they're going to be reporting a shitload of us to the FBI as suspects.  I know I'm on that list because I saw the market crashing and wanted to jump in.

Perfect.  I wish I could have articulated my point this well!  I tip my hat to you Smiley  The standards at which this site seems to be operated at, are far below that of even the most basic adult websites out there.  At least when they get owned due to poor investment in their security, they don't blame their customers and are generally rather contrite about it.

Good luck to all involved, and here is to moving past this!
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June 20, 2011, 11:42:55 PM
 #57

Does MtGox still maintain that only a single account was compromised, an account which held 500,000 BTC?
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June 20, 2011, 11:43:12 PM
 #58

I think everyone is getting confused, including me.

Those logs say nothing about when Kevin actually placed the bid order, or when the hacker placed the sell order. Did the hacker place the sell order on the first time he logged in, or the last time he logged in? Did Kevin log in that one time and then keep refreshing the page so that he doesn't get logged off (I know I do) , and then placed the buy order much later?

MagicalTux, you have anything to say about this?
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June 20, 2011, 11:43:29 PM
 #59

Exactly.  That they would use that information to try to turn the tides against Kevin shows what kind of company this is.  Based upon their "proof" they're going to be reporting a shitload of us to the FBI as suspects.  I know I'm on that list because I saw the market crashing and wanted to jump in.

I was save because of my need for sleep  Grin
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June 20, 2011, 11:44:02 PM
 #60

I honestly hope people abandon Mt Gox after this fiasco. Not in any way because I want people to abandon bitcoins. I hope bitcoins won't be affected too much because of this and from the look of things on other market sites it looks like the worst is over. People have a too strong connection between mt gox and bitcoins anyway.

Mt Gox have had big security flaws and an assortment of other bugs on the site that have gone unfixed for a very long time. People on this board keep defending magicaltux mostly arguing that he's a nice guy which while I'm sure is true doesn't qualify him to run a currency exchange. If we want to be able to use bitcoins as a real currency and want it to have value we need to start treating it as something with value.

Any site that's trading with currencies or anything else where they have to hold significant amounts of money for their customers with these kinds of security flaws wouldn't be taken seriously and still I feel like we're trying to sweep this under the carpet in this case. I think it's because we're afraid that bitcoins will go under without mt gox and I don't think that's true. There are other markets and they will be much more populated now that mt gox have proven to be run un-professionally.

For the record I'm not making this post because I'm angry at mt gox for losing bitcoins. I haven't. As soon as the complaints about peoples accounts getting stolen started streaming in from left and right I felt something was wrong and removed all my money and bitcoins from mt gox. I make this post because if we don't move the main exchange of bitcoins to a market where people feel secure then that will have an effect on the trading.
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June 20, 2011, 11:44:28 PM
 #61

Whether or not Kevin was at all involved with the hacker is irrelevant. He has taken possession of stolen goods. At the time he probably didn't know they were stolen.  Now he does. Now it's a crime if he keeps them.
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June 20, 2011, 11:46:04 PM
 #62

Let me show you the login logs for our hacker guy on his account full of bitcoins, and Kevin:

Code:
[2011/06/19 05:00:02] Hacker login
[2011/06/19 05:12:10] Kevin login
[2011/06/19 05:15:10] Hacker login
[2011/06/19 05:22:35] Hacker login
[2011/06/19 05:45:39] Hacker login
[2011/06/19 06:08:18] Hacker login
I don't understand. Which account? Kevin and the hacker used the same account?

Yeah Please Explain this Jargon, And what is it that you're implying by it?

He is saying that Kevin logged in 12 minutes after the attacker logged in to start the attack.  Not damning by itself, and almost certainly a coincidence, but still a connection that needs to be followed up, particularly in light of how it all played out.

And placed a buy order at 0.01 USD per btc.

its quite odd that Kevin could login when the rest of us couldn't.  i watched the whole thing unfold and i certainly couldn't get in.
the other thing MT might be implying is that Kevin logged into the hacked acct?  now that would be damning.  please clarify?
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June 20, 2011, 11:46:12 PM
 #63

Whether or not Kevin was at all involved with the hacker is irrelevant. He has taken possession of stolen goods. At the time he probably didn't know they were stolen.  Now he does. Now it's a crime if he keeps them.
There is no proof other than Mt Gox saying there was a theft.  I suspect there was never any hacker.  I suspect there was a bug in their code or someone at their company screwed up big time.  WHO with 500k bitcoins makes it easy for their account to be compromised?  Until PROOF of a hacking is provided, he has NOT accepted stolen goods.  
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June 20, 2011, 11:46:33 PM
 #64


Agree 100%

Synaptic has to be the worst troll on this site.  He poisons nearly every thread.

Trust me, Synaptic is definately not the worst troll on this site.
I'll definitely take your word for it, but he's got my vote since I joined a few weeks ago  Grin

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June 20, 2011, 11:47:11 PM
 #65

This is my take as well. The fact is that you were compromised. We've all seen absolute proof. When you decided you were going to move into real commodities of significant value, along with seeing dollar signs, you should have made SURE you were secure. This is on you. Most people will cut you a break, but you were lax on your security. YOu saw $ signs, got greedy, and didnt take necessary precautions.

Perhaps time to get a grip on reality. US military/RSA/FBI/CIA (trillion dollar spending) and IMF/Lockheed Martin/Citigroup/Google/SONY/SEGA (billion dollar companies) got compromised and you are asking a young start-up company to be uncompromizable.


Well y'know, not handing over your whole database to a third party is a decent start.

And that's just what they  SAY happened.

That's likely just the "cover our asses" story...
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June 20, 2011, 11:47:17 PM
 #66

As other users said, Mt.Gox was not an officially regulated exchange, and they have the full right to revert any transactions that they deem as not complaint (in fact HP did this recently when an error in their online store made certain computers or printers to cost $1). I don't understand what's the confusion with that? It's a risk you have to understand when dealing with such new and risky stuff as a "digital p2p currency".

Also, as the bitcoins that were stolen are not a legit currency, I doubt the intruder can be sued on that account. Still, they could get him for breaching and entering their network.
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June 20, 2011, 11:47:25 PM
 #67

Here's the real time vid of the crash. Time's in the bottom-right system tray. 1:47PM, don't know time zone.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1X6qQt9ONg

EDIT: I assume this would mean the time of the flash crash was around 05:47, 35 mins after kevin logged in at 05:12? Not sure.
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June 20, 2011, 11:47:25 PM
 #68

What I don't understand is what Kevin logging in around the same time the hacker did, what about everyone else? EVERYONE was logging in around that time, so it seems to me like he is trying to make Kevin look like hes working with the hacker, but yet doesn't post logs of all the others who logged in, and if you can recall everyone was..



I agree with you. Mt Gox from the first post ACCUSED Kevin by proxy of knowing the hacker.
Then Mt Gox posts a simple display of login times and names them "Hacker" and "Kevin" without showing any other logins or buys or sells.

That's just fishy.

Mt Gox, tell us a few things:
1.) How many bitcoins were stolen from the network? Mark claimed 100-200 last night on the Bitcoinshow, and Kevin claims he has 600 or so. That's a lot you guys obviously didn't know about. How do you account for that?
2.) Who is the person or account from which the 500,000 bitcoins were hacked and then sold? Where is the victim of all this theft and hacking? Have they contacted you, or notified you yet?
3.) How many accounts were hacked and bitcoins stolen from?

We can start with those for now.

Why does Bitrebel have 65+ Ignores?
Because Bitrebel says things that some people do not want YOU to hear.
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June 20, 2011, 11:47:56 PM
 #69

its quite odd that Kevin could login when the rest of us couldn't.  i watched the whole thing unfold and i certainly couldn't get in.
the other thing MT might be implying is that Kevin logged into the hacked acct?  now that would be damning.  please clarify?
Plenty of us could login, I did.  Some people even got in buy and sell orders.  Just because you didn't doesn't mean plenty of others did.  And those of us who did are now SUSPECTS under the logic Mt Gox is using.
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June 20, 2011, 11:48:12 PM
 #70

Whether or not Kevin was at all involved with the hacker is irrelevant. He has taken possession of stolen goods. At the time he probably didn't know they were stolen.  Now he does. Now it's a crime if he keeps them.
There is no proof other than Mt Gox saying there was a theft.  I suspect there was never any hacker.  I suspect there was a bug in their code or someone at their company screwed up big time.  WHO with 500k bitcoins makes it easy for their account to be compromised?  Until PROOF of a hacking is provided, he has NOT accepted stolen goods.  

Bingo.
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June 20, 2011, 11:48:44 PM
 #71


Agree 100%

Synaptic has to be the worst troll on this site.  He poisons nearly every thread.

He hasn't made any useful contributions that I can see.  If he has something productive to say, he should just say it, once, without profanity, if his infantile mind will allow him to do so.  Better yet, he should actually DO something, like start an exchange or a better fork of the Bitcoin software.
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June 20, 2011, 11:49:18 PM
 #72

Do not get the government involved ! They want to destroy BTC!

GOOOOOOOOOOO BITCOINS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Edit: Oops. Just fixed a typo. It should be GO (like GO TEAM!) and not GOOB
Edit2: Just checked the dictionary and goob is not a word
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June 20, 2011, 11:49:31 PM
 #73


Agree 100%

Synaptic has to be the worst troll on this site.  He poisons nearly every thread.

He hasn't made any useful contributions that I can see.  If he has something productive to say, he should just say it, once, without profanity, if his infantile mind will allow him to do so.  Better yet, he should actually DO something, like start an exchange or a better fork of the Bitcoin software.

FUCK.
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June 20, 2011, 11:50:56 PM
 #74

I'm pretty sure MT has been one of the more proactive exchange operators when it comes to covering their bases legally ahead of time.  He pays taxes, and just a few days ago he was offering to cooperate with any authorities investigating Silk Road.  The evidence I've seen is that MT has tried to make Mt. Gox as not-under-the-table as possible.

So basically, the operator of the biggest exchange of unregulated p2p government-proof libertarian currency of the future is going to give all our private financial information to Big Brother because his insecure Website didn't scale gracefully to 60,000 users and Hax0rs tore him a new one.

That makes sense.

We need a distributed P2P exchange to go with the distributed P2P currency.

Mt. Gox isn't Bitcoin.  It is just a business that accepts Bitcoin.  Bitcoin will continue merrily onwards in spite of this wart.




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June 20, 2011, 11:51:43 PM
 #75

Whether or not Kevin was at all involved with the hacker is irrelevant. He has taken possession of stolen goods. At the time he probably didn't know they were stolen.  Now he does. Now it's a crime if he keeps them.
There is no proof other than Mt Gox saying there was a theft.  I suspect there was never any hacker.  I suspect there was a bug in their code or someone at their company screwed up big time.  WHO with 500k bitcoins makes it easy for their account to be compromised?  Until PROOF of a hacking is provided, he has NOT accepted stolen goods.  

By his own version of the story, he withdrew the funds that he did because he suspected that someone's account had be compromised already, and he was not certain that it couldn't happen to him as well.  There has been no evidence to suggest that this event is anything other than what MagicalTux says it was.  Kevin understood, at least on some level, that he might be accepting stolen property.  This doesn't mean that Kevin did anything wrong at the time, but now that there is credible verification that was so, it's wrong for Kevin to keep that property.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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June 20, 2011, 11:52:16 PM
 #76


Agree 100%

Synaptic has to be the worst troll on this site.  He poisons nearly every thread.

He hasn't made any useful contributions that I can see.  If he has something productive to say, he should just say it, once, without profanity, if his infantile mind will allow him to do so.  Better yet, he should actually DO something, like start an exchange or a better fork of the Bitcoin software.

FUCK.
As Synaptic likes to say, QED.
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June 20, 2011, 11:52:47 PM
 #77

Let me show you the login logs for our hacker guy on his account full of bitcoins, and Kevin:

Code:
[2011/06/19 05:00:02] Hacker login
[2011/06/19 05:12:10] Kevin login
[2011/06/19 05:15:10] Hacker login
[2011/06/19 05:22:35] Hacker login
[2011/06/19 05:45:39] Hacker login
[2011/06/19 06:08:18] Hacker login
I don't understand. Which account? Kevin and the hacker used the same account?

Yeah Please Explain this Jargon, And what is it that you're implying by it?

He is saying that Kevin logged in 12 minutes after the attacker logged in to start the attack.  Not damning by itself, and almost certainly a coincidence, but still a connection that needs to be followed up, particularly in light of how it all played out.

And placed a buy order at 0.01 USD per btc.

its quite odd that Kevin could login when the rest of us couldn't.  i watched the whole thing unfold and i certainly couldn't get in.
the other thing MT might be implying is that Kevin logged into the hacked acct?  now that would be damning.  please clarify?

He logged in 3 minutes before the whole thing unfold.

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June 20, 2011, 11:53:11 PM
 #78

Better yet, he should actually DO something, like start an exchange or a better fork of the Bitcoin software.

Yea or maybe he could go get a life and move out from under that bridge he's living under..  Grin

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June 20, 2011, 11:53:43 PM
 #79


Agree 100%

Synaptic has to be the worst troll on this site.  He poisons nearly every thread.

He hasn't made any useful contributions that I can see.  If he has something productive to say, he should just say it, once, without profanity, if his infantile mind will allow him to do so.  Better yet, he should actually DO something, like start an exchange or a better fork of the Bitcoin software.

FUCK.
As Synaptic likes to say, QED.

QED.
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June 20, 2011, 11:53:50 PM
 #80

So, after putting out the fact that I'm confident Mark will do 'the right thing (tm)' and that I don't have any suspicion of foul play from mtgox's part, I must say that this whole episode will force me to say goodbye to a good friend that has accompanied me for many years now... my email address. It is on the wild, it is related to bitcoins, it is getting spammed with get rich quick emails and is probably forever tainted.

Ah well, it breaks my heart but its a small price to pay for a lesson learned: use unique / disposable emails on anything that is not under your control (which is pretty much everything on the net, I guess).
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June 20, 2011, 11:54:46 PM
 #81

Whether or not Kevin was at all involved with the hacker is irrelevant. He has taken possession of stolen goods. At the time he probably didn't know they were stolen.  Now he does. Now it's a crime if he keeps them.
There is no proof other than Mt Gox saying there was a theft.  I suspect there was never any hacker.  I suspect there was a bug in their code or someone at their company screwed up big time.  WHO with 500k bitcoins makes it easy for their account to be compromised?  Until PROOF of a hacking is provided, he has NOT accepted stolen goods.  

Completely reasonable.
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June 20, 2011, 11:54:59 PM
 #82


Agree 100%

Synaptic has to be the worst troll on this site.  He poisons nearly every thread.

He hasn't made any useful contributions that I can see.  If he has something productive to say, he should just say it, once, without profanity, if his infantile mind will allow him to do so.  Better yet, he should actually DO something, like start an exchange or a better fork of the Bitcoin software.

FUCK.

bobR, is that you?

Naah, you can't be, you are much more articulate at reasoning in colorful ways, though much less amusing to be honest Smiley
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June 20, 2011, 11:55:20 PM
 #83

Better yet, he should actually DO something, like start an exchange or a better fork of the Bitcoin software.

Yea or maybe he could go get a life and move out from under that bridge he's living under..  Grin

*fistbump*
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June 20, 2011, 11:55:30 PM
 #84

He logged in 3 minutes before the whole thing unfold.
Well I'm sure convinced!  Off to prison with Kevin!  /sarcasm

Good grief.  You're just terrible to make such connections.  
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June 20, 2011, 11:55:36 PM
 #85

Let me show you the login logs for our hacker guy on his account full of bitcoins, and Kevin:

Code:
[2011/06/19 05:00:02] Hacker login
[2011/06/19 05:12:10] Kevin login
[2011/06/19 05:15:10] Hacker login
[2011/06/19 05:22:35] Hacker login
[2011/06/19 05:45:39] Hacker login
[2011/06/19 06:08:18] Hacker login
I don't understand. Which account? Kevin and the hacker used the same account?

Yeah Please Explain this Jargon, And what is it that you're implying by it?

He is saying that Kevin logged in 12 minutes after the attacker logged in to start the attack.  Not damning by itself, and almost certainly a coincidence, but still a connection that needs to be followed up, particularly in light of how it all played out.

And placed a buy order at 0.01 USD per btc.

its quite odd that Kevin could login when the rest of us couldn't.  i watched the whole thing unfold and i certainly couldn't get in.
the other thing MT might be implying is that Kevin logged into the hacked acct?  now that would be damning.  please clarify?

He logged in 3 minutes before the whole thing unfold.

So the crash started 05:15?
Does that tally with the Windows time in this vid? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1X6qQt9ONg
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June 20, 2011, 11:56:35 PM
 #86

TUX:

As a customer I only care about quality of service. As far as a lot of people are concerned, you've ff'd bad!
  • It's not acceptable to have had your customers emails and Hashes leaked.
  • It is not acceptable that you gave an unencrypted copy of your DB to a third party - THIS IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY
  • It is not acceptable that your DB contained account information alongside financial data - The auditor should have seen nothing but usernames


No doubt you're tired of posts like mine, but the most important thing you can learn is that your customers don't care for your hardships, only for your means to supply a service. I'm really hoping you can salvage the situation, but will happily let the door hit my ass on the way out if you don't start impressing with a genuine service that is worthy of being called world class. You have the opportunity!.......Dawdle any more, and you'll be but a footnote in history when a bigger fish takes a liking to BTC exchanges - I wish you luck.

[̲̅$̲̅(̲̅ ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°̲̅)̲̅$̲̅] From time to time i exchange e-currencies/trade like Skrill>Paypal>Remittances>Pokerstars>Amazon GC>PaySafecard to Bitcoin. [̲̅$̲̅(̲̅ ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°̲̅)̲̅$̲̅]
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June 20, 2011, 11:58:01 PM
 #87


So the crash started 05:15?
Does that tally with the Windows time in this vid? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1X6qQt9ONg
Probably. It took very long time before it reached $0.01.

1FzTJh1C58m1gqnNzxLTt2ryNYkuk1YdfN
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June 20, 2011, 11:58:12 PM
 #88

Whether or not Kevin was at all involved with the hacker is irrelevant. He has taken possession of stolen goods. At the time he probably didn't know they were stolen.  Now he does. Now it's a crime if he keeps them.

Money is generally treated differently than other stolen goods.  If every time I spent a $20, the serial number was checked to see if it had ever been stolen, so it could be taken away and returned to its rightful owner, money would be worth little.  

Kevin may very well be a "holder in due course" of the Bitcoins he purchased.  Namely, a party uninvolved in any drama between Mt. Gox and their hacker, and who needs to be kept whole with regard to a transaction he may have entered into in good faith.


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June 20, 2011, 11:59:21 PM
 #89

There is no proof other than Mt Gox saying there was a theft.  I suspect there was never any hacker.  I suspect there was a bug in their code or someone at their company screwed up big time.  WHO with 500k bitcoins makes it easy for their account to be compromised?  Until PROOF of a hacking is provided, he has NOT accepted stolen goods.  

I feel pretty neutral about this whole thing, but am I right that you're saying if this whole thing was the result of a bug or employee error and the huge trade that crashed the market was never even entered by a market participant that that somehow makes it MORE necessary for Mark to pay out the 260k or 500k or whatever?

Like, if you ever have a computer glitch there's no do overs and the exchange or broker should be instantly liable for the entirety of the bugged trades? Doesn't that sound just a weee bit unrealistic to you?
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June 21, 2011, 12:00:38 AM
 #90

He logged in 3 minutes before the whole thing unfold.
Well I'm sure convinced!  Off to prison with Kevin!  /sarcasm

Good grief.  You're just terrible to make such connections.  

Sir, we're from the MagicalFBI and we'd like a word with you regarding your opinions.

Would you mid stepping over here for a moment.

Thank You, Sir.
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June 21, 2011, 12:01:32 AM
 #91


So the crash started 05:15?
Does that tally with the Windows time in this vid? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1X6qQt9ONg
Probably. It took very long time before it reached $0.01.

It was down to 5.0 at x:47
Did it really take 30 mins to go from 17 down to 5?
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June 21, 2011, 12:02:09 AM
 #92

Whether or not Kevin was at all involved with the hacker is irrelevant. He has taken possession of stolen goods. At the time he probably didn't know they were stolen.  Now he does. Now it's a crime if he keeps them.

He does?  What proof?  Why does everyone immediately jump to the conclusion that this was a hack?  What is the BTC address of the guy who got stolen from?  I'll help refund 650 btc myself - it's completely irrelevant to this discussion.

MT posts some random selective login (why?) logs, and you immediately believe him? hmm.

Sucks, I was really hoping on a future for bitcoin and had a good 10 grand or so invested in development of some new services offering both physical products (food! omg!) for bitcoin, as well as some security-related services that appear to be sorely needed.  This doesn't even include the mining op which I do for fun.

I've put those projects on hold for the time being, until this mess is resolved in a professional or community-responsible manner.  The previous issue that was NOT resolved professionally AT ALL that I was not aware of, made my mind up.  The fact I know Kevin personally and know he is not in any way involved beyond what he has posted, just is icing on the cake.  You forcing to get lawyers involved just to get any semblance of truth on the table is pathetic.

Hopefully Tradehill, or another competitor, will prove to be better stewards so I'll have a relatively stable market to build products for.  I'd like to not have to worry about being accused of criminal behavior by engaging in commerce on their terms, should I so happen to login at the wrong time.

Yeesh.

-Phil
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June 21, 2011, 12:02:53 AM
 #93

<cut>
Option 4: Mt Gox signals this to the competent authorities
+ We are safe
+ We may even have a chance of catching our hacker if Kevin knows him
+ We can rollback without having to worry
- Having to deal with FBI, provide logs and proof
I would also recommend that option but question if the FBI is the appropriate authority, if the business you are running is done on US soil and the suspicious activity comes from US soil too, then yes FBI would be the most appropriate agency to contact although you should that via the local police. It is their job to elevate it to national, thus federal, level.

If either party is foreign, well things get a whole lot more complicated, to the level that it might be best just to report to the police and most likely never be heard of again.

It might be an idea to have this whole fiasco recorded, signed by a notary and publicized on a prominent accessible part on your site.

Although a whole lot of people carry the sentiment that this could have been prevented, this hindsight is of course 20/20. Security as a goal can not be achieved, though it is a path that should be followed. A common rule of thumb is that the effectiveness of countermeasures can be roughly divided in 75% organizational, 15% structural and 10 % electronically. Meaning that switching to an alternative OS with a more robust database and scripting language might seem the right thing to do, it is more effective to make rules that prevent or at least monitor suspicious activity.

I wish you all the best and strength to carry on, this mishap is naturally a lesson learned, but not as much as some on this forum make it sound. From where I stand this should not affect you on a personal level at all. It goes more in the oh-f* category, you already demonstrated you have a plan for contingency and are open to what is going to happen. The only thing that remains is doing that and rest is water under the bridge.

Believe me this is less of a screw up than when I accidentally shut down a banks main transaction mainframe (it was the end of the day and I typed shutdown -P now in my laptop terminal, which was actually an ssh session over to a box that was serial console attached to that SUN machine).

Luckily for me that bank had a hot fail over instance in another country, though waiting another 10 unpaid hours to verify the machine came up cleanly is synced and took over master role is not something I would like to do again :-).
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June 21, 2011, 12:03:58 AM
 #94

There is no proof other than Mt Gox saying there was a theft.  I suspect there was never any hacker.  I suspect there was a bug in their code or someone at their company screwed up big time.  WHO with 500k bitcoins makes it easy for their account to be compromised?  Until PROOF of a hacking is provided, he has NOT accepted stolen goods.  

I feel pretty neutral about this whole thing, but am I right that you're saying if this whole thing was the result of a bug or employee error and the huge trade that crashed the market was never even entered by a market participant that that somehow makes it MORE necessary for Mark to pay out the 260k or 500k or whatever?

Like, if you ever have a computer glitch there's no do overs and the exchange or broker should be instantly liable for the entirety of the bugged trades? Doesn't that sound just a weee bit unrealistic to you?

I'm glad you brought this up.

And since we're all here in MagicalBacksiesLand, I'd like to do backsies on being an asshole to everyone here.

And everyone can have backsies on whatever too.

Backsies.
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June 21, 2011, 12:04:22 AM
 #95

Whether or not Kevin was at all involved with the hacker is irrelevant. He has taken possession of stolen goods. At the time he probably didn't know they were stolen.  Now he does. Now it's a crime if he keeps them.

Money is generally treated differently than other stolen goods.  If every time I spent a $20, the serial number was checked to see if it had ever been stolen, so it could be taken away and returned to its rightful owner, money would be worth little.  

Kevin may very well be a "holder in due course" of the Bitcoins he purchased.  Namely, a party uninvolved in any drama between Mt. Gox and their hacker, and who needs to be kept whole with regard to a transaction he may have entered into in good faith.



However since the exchange itself was compromised and the price was not a accurate representation the transaction was not entered into in good faith by both parties.  Now that doesn't bode well for Mt Gox since you never want your currency exchange to be compromised like that, but its something Kevin and those in his situation will have to come to grips with since their purchases made during the flash crash were indeed illegitimate.

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June 21, 2011, 12:05:00 AM
 #96

Why is it when a business hosted and administered from Japan is hacked from an IP traceable to Hong Kong the FBI gets called?  Have the Japanese outsourced their police work?

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June 21, 2011, 12:06:25 AM
 #97

Why is it when a business hosted and administered from Japan is hacked from an IP traceable to Hong Kong the FBI gets called?  Have the Japanese outsourced their police work?



Apparently they're all tied up investigating strange tentacle monsters stealing schoolgirl panties...

..which, are actually worth more as a currency than bitcoins...

...in tentacle monster land.
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June 21, 2011, 12:07:20 AM
 #98


MT posts some random selective login (why?) logs, and you immediately believe him? hmm.

I posted all the logins on Kevin's and the hacked account for May 19th.

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June 21, 2011, 12:07:31 AM
 #99

There is no proof other than Mt Gox saying there was a theft.  I suspect there was never any hacker.  I suspect there was a bug in their code or someone at their company screwed up big time.  WHO with 500k bitcoins makes it easy for their account to be compromised?  Until PROOF of a hacking is provided, he has NOT accepted stolen goods.  

I feel pretty neutral about this whole thing, but am I right that you're saying if this whole thing was the result of a bug or employee error and the huge trade that crashed the market was never even entered by a market participant that that somehow makes it MORE necessary for Mark to pay out the 260k or 500k or whatever?

Like, if you ever have a computer glitch there's no do overs and the exchange or broker should be instantly liable for the entirety of the bugged trades? Doesn't that sound just a weee bit unrealistic to you?
I fat fingered a trade at one point and bought 20 coins at 111 instead of 111 at 20 (numbers somewhere along those lines, I forget the exact numbers).  Should I get those back?

With that said, I'm not saying that he should get the coins because I don't know the answer to that.  That's one for the law to figure out once they have all the evidence.  There's just way too much fishiness going on.  I plain don't believe for a second that some unnamed person with 500k bitcoins had an easily hackable account that some hacker happened upon.  A lot just doesn't add up.

And that Mt Gox is now trying to connect Kevin to the hacker just puts it over the top.
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June 21, 2011, 12:08:53 AM
 #100

There is no proof other than Mt Gox saying there was a theft.  I suspect there was never any hacker.  I suspect there was a bug in their code or someone at their company screwed up big time.  WHO with 500k bitcoins makes it easy for their account to be compromised?  Until PROOF of a hacking is provided, he has NOT accepted stolen goods.  

I feel pretty neutral about this whole thing, but am I right that you're saying if this whole thing was the result of a bug or employee error and the huge trade that crashed the market was never even entered by a market participant that that somehow makes it MORE necessary for Mark to pay out the 260k or 500k or whatever?

Like, if you ever have a computer glitch there's no do overs and the exchange or broker should be instantly liable for the entirety of the bugged trades? Doesn't that sound just a weee bit unrealistic to you?
I fat fingered a trade at one point and bought 20 coins at 111 instead of 111 at 20 (numbers somewhere along those lines, I forget the exact numbers).  Should I get those back?

With that said, I'm not saying that he should get the coins because I don't know the answer to that.  That's one for the law to figure out once they have all the evidence.  There's just way too much fishiness going on.  I plain don't believe for a second that some unnamed person with 500k bitcoins had an easily hackable account that some hacker happened upon.  A lot just doesn't add up.

And that Mt Gox is now trying to connect Kevin to the hacker just puts it over the top.

HEATHEN!

BE GONE WITH YOUR SORCEROUS TREACHERY.
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June 21, 2011, 12:09:25 AM
 #101

I know MagicalTux is only really posting these scant details in reaction to Mark's public posting of his side of the story.  But I think the problem I have with all of this, is I have not seen any proof that the leaked DB has anything to even do with this crash.

I think you need to provide some information regarding how you can proove that this was a result of a hacking.  There are a lot of details you are leaving out that are critical to the public's understanding of what has actually happened.  All we know as users for certain is that the market crashed.  You claim you were hacked.  But we still have no idea if this is one single user's account, or if it was some sort of MtGox account that sold the bitcoins.  I don't think this public statements are doing any good for either side ( MtGox or Kevin ) - all you guys are doing is trying to convince the public of your views.

Proove to us that these 500k bitcoins were actually stolen.  That's my largest problem with these story - were they even stolen?  How do we know they were stolen?  How can we blindly trust what you've said when you've been so very lacking with detail?  Are we supposed to take your word at face value and just assume it's the truth?  Hell, if you don't want to expose more info than you need to, why don't you contact Mark directly and proove to him that this was actually stolen property that he bought.  Because as far as I'm concerned right now, it's not stolen until it's proven/shown that it was stolen.  Let Mark be the one to tell the community that the proof looks real.  I'd be slightly more happy with the explanation of the situation now if Mark agreed to give the bitcoins back because they were stolen property - because you were able to proove to him that it was stolen.

Just the fact alone that you've had these security problems and so much trouble and drama these past weeks, your word is not credible in my opinion.  You guys have not been transparent enough in your security vulnerabilities to leave full trust in your word any more.

I think you guys owe us all at least a redacted version of what the hell actually happened.
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June 21, 2011, 12:09:56 AM
 #102


MT posts some random selective login (why?) logs, and you immediately believe him? hmm.

I posted all the logins on Kevin's and the hacked account for May 19th.

MagicalTux, don't sweat the idiots. I get why you have to do what you're doing. I've traded on different exchanges, futures, forex, options. Appreciate the additional information. Just do what you need to do, let the trolls simmer and boil in their own juices, its what they are best at.

Look forward to the re-opening.

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June 21, 2011, 12:10:25 AM
 #103

Let me show you the login logs for our hacker guy on his account full of bitcoins, and Kevin:

Code:
[2011/06/19 05:00:02] Hacker login
[2011/06/19 05:12:10] Kevin login
[2011/06/19 05:15:10] Hacker login
[2011/06/19 05:22:35] Hacker login
[2011/06/19 05:45:39] Hacker login
[2011/06/19 06:08:18] Hacker login
I don't understand. Which account? Kevin and the hacker used the same account?

Yeah Please Explain this Jargon, And what is it that you're implying by it?

He is saying that Kevin logged in 12 minutes after the attacker logged in to start the attack.  Not damning by itself, and almost certainly a coincidence, but still a connection that needs to be followed up, particularly in light of how it all played out.

And placed a buy order at 0.01 USD per btc.

its quite odd that Kevin could login when the rest of us couldn't.  i watched the whole thing unfold and i certainly couldn't get in.
the other thing MT might be implying is that Kevin logged into the hacked acct?  now that would be damning.  please clarify?

He logged in 3 minutes before the whole thing unfold.

So the crash started 05:15?
Does that tally with the Windows time in this vid? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1X6qQt9ONg
His windows time seems a bit off for some reason but it does match the timestamps from the ticker in his cmd window.

This proves nothing though. Obviously anyone that made a profit from the crash were logged in around the same time the hacker was since that's when the crash happened. If magicaltux can provide logs showing that kevin put the buy order at 0.01 USD per bitcoin before the market started going down then that would be reason for suspicion but magicaltux haven't made that part public and possibly can't (I'm not sure what the rules on banking secrecy is here) even if such logs exist.
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June 21, 2011, 12:11:34 AM
 #104


MT posts some random selective login (why?) logs, and you immediately believe him? hmm.


Use your head.

If criminal investigations are underway, which it appears there are, and these investigations involve 'Kevin', it would be logical to assume Mtgox would have been told by their lawyers NOT to reveal specific details of the login and what occured less they jeapordise their case. Regardless, commonsense dictates they dont reveal specifics at this point in time pending legal action.

I'm sure MT has revealed a few logs without any further detail or allegations, to show Kevins claim is simply untrue.

Nothing else needs to be said at this stage.

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June 21, 2011, 12:11:45 AM
 #105

Would be nice to hear an answer on this.  Mt.Gox has said a single account was compromised, with 500,000 BTC.  Is that still their position?
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June 21, 2011, 12:11:56 AM
 #106

If the official Mt.Gox is posting publicly on issues like this, it should be some concrete facts that can lead to concrete conclusions, not some general info that mislead someone into thinking negatively on Kevin like this.

Hundreds of people probably log-in to Mt.Gox during 5:00-6:00, Kevins could be just one of them.

Hundreds of people is probably watching the price tumbling down. So, hundreds of people must be trying to make a low-ball buy order at a very low price. Keven tried (and somehow successfully) made one too, at $0.01.


So, UNLESS magicalTux give more hard facts, like if Kevin make the order BEFORE the crash happens, what Tux said doesn't really proof anything, yet people could already associate Kevin with the hacker! And I think this is unfair for Kevin.

PS. I support the roll-back option, and disagree with most of Kevin's points though.
PS2. Could someone just ban, or at least delete Synaptic's comments?
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June 21, 2011, 12:12:00 AM
 #107

Ok can we get some sanity checks please?

Mtgox have been running and growing all of our(most of us atleast) wallets by offering a service for the past 2 months, please tell me why when something like this happens you would prefer to pick the side of literally just another person over the provider of a service that was running without any hassles until roughly a week ago when some weird stuff started to happen on the exchange.

Up until that point we have had nothing but a stable service with no issues, its clear something went wrong with their database and shit like that can happen(as long as it gets resolved now once and for all) and no one can predict that this site would have grown probably 100x its user size in just a month.

Now here is the interesting part, everyone moaning at mtgox in this thread have been more than happy to utilise the service and make their own wallet phat with loot from exchanging however the moment something went wrong you would pick the side of:

a.) a user whos never been active in the bitcoin forum
b.) a user who magically decide to place order of >200k sometime on the same date the crash happened(i state sometime since people here dont believe mtgox stating it was before the crash happened)
c.) a user who posted about himself and that he contact mtgox on irc cause he thought it was stolen funds and wanted to know how to go about it.

Its stolen, he said he thought so himself in his own thread, why is this discussion still going on about what should/shouldnt be done? Do any of you actually try to argue a point that the stolen funds could be kept and have no issue with that?

If that is your mentality then please get the fk off the bitcoin network and go play with everyday corrupt fiat currencies, I am confident bitcoin actually dont want people like you.

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June 21, 2011, 12:12:25 AM
 #108


I think you guys owe us all at least a redacted version of what the hell actually happened.

Do you think that you could wait until they have had a chance to figure it out?

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

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June 21, 2011, 12:12:38 AM
 #109

So Kevin, by his own admission:

*Had deposited 3000 USD into his account over the past few weeks, slowly.
*On Sunday, logged in around the same time as the hacker.
*Put his whole 3k into 1 cent BTC orders

I'm not saying anything either way, but that's fortuitous? for him.

What time was this order placed? What was the going BTC rate? 10$? 5$? 14? Wouldn't it make more sense to try to get a few hundred at 1$, then the rest at a penny?

Is MagicalTux ever going to give any details about what account was compromised? How much money was withdrawn between the start of the compromise, and the shutdown of the site? How much BTC was pulled out?

Questions abound!  Grin

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June 21, 2011, 12:16:57 AM
 #110


MT posts some random selective login (why?) logs, and you immediately believe him? hmm.

I posted all the logins on Kevin's and the hacked account for May 19th.

We're gambling men, give us the stats, not selective facts.

How many other people logged in at the same time? Surely he wasn't the only person.
Does Kevin's story hold true, that he saw the price crashing to under $10 before he made any offer to buy?
How many other people also put really low bids in at around the same time? Was he the only one? Was he the highest of the low? Was he the only suspicious transaction?

Publish the stats and let people make their minds up based on probability, this fact-mining exercise doesn't do you any favours.
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June 21, 2011, 12:18:31 AM
 #111


I think you guys owe us all at least a redacted version of what the hell actually happened.

Do you think that you could wait until they have had a chance to figure it out?

Another 6 months?

Does anyone still remember how MtGox handled the last situation where there was a large amount at stake for MtGox?

http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=3712.0

That guy explained himself, was hounded by the community, MtGox barely bothered to respond, made some outlandish claims, froze funds and rapidly moved the whole operation to a different jurisdiction (Japan) after the guy finaly decided to get lawyers involved.

MtGox promised to inform the community! No news yet, and it´s been 6 months!

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June 21, 2011, 12:18:41 AM
 #112

What timezone are the logs in? To my knowledge, the first major crash was well in-progress at around 17:50 (UTC). JST is UTC+9, so the logs aren't in JST?

Also:
- The logs do not indicate when Kevin has placed his order.
- They don't show the logins and orders of all others trying to get their piece of the 'dump'

Further questions:
- All that has been released with respect to the user info leak was that it was a third party who was compromised
- What was compromised exactly? A database dump? MySQL credentials? If the latter, how were they used to obtain the database (remote?)?
- When was the information compromised, and when was the table snapshot made?
- Why did the auditor have access to user data in the first place?
- How come the auditor was compromised. Was it coincidence? A targeted attack? I don't think the existence of a financial auditor was public knowledge. How would an attacker know, assuming it was targeted?

Questions, questions..

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June 21, 2011, 12:19:11 AM
 #113

Ok can we get some sanity checks please?

Mtgox have been running and growing all of our(most of us atleast) wallets by offering a service for the past 2 months, please tell me why when something like this happens you would prefer to pick the side of literally just another person over the provider of a service that was running without any hassles until roughly a week ago when some weird stuff started to happen on the exchange.

Up until that point we have had nothing but a stable service with no issues, its clear something went wrong with their database and shit like that can happen(as long as it gets resolved now once and for all) and no one can predict that this site would have grown probably 100x its user size in just a month.

Now here is the interesting part, everyone moaning at mtgox in this thread have been more than happy to utilise the service and make their own wallet phat with loot from exchanging however the moment something went wrong you would pick the side of:

a.) a user whos never been active in the bitcoin forum
b.) a user who magically decide to place order of >200k sometime on the same date the crash happened(i state sometime since people here dont believe mtgox stating it was before the crash happened)
c.) a user who posted about himself and that he contact mtgox on irc cause he thought it was stolen funds and wanted to know how to go about it.

Its stolen, he said he thought so himself in his own thread, why is this discussion still going on about what should/shouldnt be done? Do any of you actually try to argue a point that the stolen funds could be kept and have no issue with that?

If that is your mentality then please get the fk off the bitcoin network and go play with everyday corrupt fiat currencies, I am confident bitcoin actually dont want people like you.

great post

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June 21, 2011, 12:22:25 AM
 #114


I think you guys owe us all at least a redacted version of what the hell actually happened.

Do you think that you could wait until they have had a chance to figure it out?

I think I could have already - I was expecting more information once they reopened the market.

But now that there is this public drama with both sides posting, the cat's out of the bag.  You can't try to explain this crap with minimal to no evidence of these accusations, and then say, well details will be given out at some point later in time.  It's too late, they shouldn't have aired this dirty laundry here in the first place

And for all we know - with what little actual facts we have - Mark possibly even saved MtGox's ass, what if the supposed "hacker" had set the target to 0.01 - Mark's bid of .011 might have kept these bitcoins in the market so that MtGox even had a chance of recovering from the damage.  All because he was honest and didn't try to exploit the system and remove all of the bitcoins so they would be out of MtGox's reach.

edit: I may have my names wrong, is Mark = torch?

How about just some more facts about why MagicalTux thinks torch is the hacker or affiliated with him?  Were there any other huge buy orders around that 0.01 price range?  In the range of 500k bitcoins?  I'm not siding with torch either, hell for all I know he is laundering the money for the "hacker".  The problem here is we have absolutely no credible information to work on.
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June 21, 2011, 12:22:55 AM
 #115

Mark: Hi Mr FBI agent......My Name is Mark from Mt Gox.....

FBI: What does it stand for?

Mark: Oh, it stand for Magic the Gathering Online Exchange.

FBI: What the fuck is that?

Mark: We'll, it's really irrelevant to anything. I'm here to report a theft from a hacking break-in.

FBI: What happened?

Mark: Well, I run this online bitcoin exchange....

FBI: What the fuck is that?

Mark: Well, bitcoins are a form of digital currency that is not really currency.

FBI: Well, if it's not currency, then what is it?

Mark: It's a series of encrypted numbers that keep transactions between people anonymous. Nobody can know who bought or spent them.

FBI: Yes, go on...please keep talking....

Mark: So, you see, I run this exchange from Japan, and someone logged in from Hong Kong and tried to make a huge sell off of 500,000 bitcoins at once.

FBI: and who owned these bitcoins?

Mark: We don't really know, because it's anonymous.

FBI: Okay, go on. Keep talking....

Mark: So, then this person we suspect of being the hacker, Kevin, had placed a buy right after the hacker logged in and tried to make his sell off.

FBI: And what evidence do you have that Kevin is the hacker?

Mark: None, it's just that if we don't have anyone to blame, then we have to payout the full 500,000 bitcoins from our own purse.

FBI: Were these accounts protected somehow?

Mark: No, not really.

FBI: What is the current value of the bitcoins stolen?

Mark: no way to really know for sure.

FBI: How do we know you didn't steal them from yourselves or other members, and try to sell them all off, thus laundering them through your own exchange, and buying them back up at .01 each, allowing you to make off with 500,000 bitcoins worth 2 million dollars, but Kevin came in and made equal buy orders, thus cutting your stolen profits in half?

Mark: Well, we can't really prove that we didn't, but Kevin logged in 5 minutes after the hacker did!

FBI: Come with us, please.

Bye Bye, Mt Gox!

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June 21, 2011, 12:24:47 AM
 #116

This indicates that Kevin put that buy order for 0.01 almost an hour before the hacker started selling off everything. Which is a bit suspicious, I mean, who puts in buy orders for one cents, and $3000 worth of it to boot?

To be fair, I put one in on TradeHill just before I left home for a few hours, because I saw a paste of a paste of a paste of what was allegedly Atlas saying that if MtGox went through with the rollback he was going to liquidate his 250kBTC, and I thought "plz do".

^_^
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June 21, 2011, 12:24:51 AM
 #117


I think you guys owe us all at least a redacted version of what the hell actually happened.

Do you think that you could wait until they have had a chance to figure it out?

Another 6 months?

Does anyone still remember how MtGox handled the last situation where there was a large amount at stake for MtGox?

http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=3712.0

That guy explained himself, was hounded by the community, MtGox barely bothered to respond, made some outlandish claims, froze funds and rapidly moved the whole operation to a different jurisdiction (Japan) after the guy finaly decided to get lawyers involved.

MtGox promised to inform the community! No news yet, and it´s been 6 months!
That's at least the third time you've posted that now.  Not that I think you have an agenda or anything.

While we're quoting our own posts:
It's a controversial incident and I don't claim to have all the facts, but for the sake of cutting through the FUD... it's actually only been three months since Mt. Gox commented on this:
http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=3712.msg57901#msg57901
http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=3712.msg62282#msg62282

The last comment was that they couldn't say anything more because it might go to trial.  This will be satisfactory for some people and not for others, but there is no clear evidence that they ever behaved unprofessionally.
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June 21, 2011, 12:25:06 AM
 #118

The 500k bitcoin question: what is the relationship between the owners of the "hacked" mega account and Mt.Gox . . . and how might that relationship have played a role in this fiasco?
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June 21, 2011, 12:27:52 AM
 #119

What is this supposed to indicate?  That Kevin put his sell order in before the selloff began, rather than during or after the 30-some minute trade finished up, like he said?

It indicates Kevin logged in 10 minutes after the sell-off began and put in his buy order for 0.01c - now one could assume from that either:

A. He had inside knowledge and could even be involved in the scam (and could even know the hacker)

or

B. It was pure coincidence he logged in at the same time and just happened to put in his 0.01c buy order which didnt exist prior to this login and he knew nothing about what was about to occur

Now if I was a gambling man, which I am, I'd put my money on option A.


Your all missing something here.... odds are that a person logging in smack in middle of major selloff.. will be the one to place the order to buy .01 . Someone who logged in 30 minutes prior may not be paying 100% attention to  the screen.

If I happened to see what was going on.. I would have done the same thing. Any trader worth anything would do the same thing. I've seen many 1,000,000 size orders at .01 go into MtGox. I even posted it on the forum once.. huge orders below .10 .

1) fact: Many traders would place that .01 bid , if they see a flash crash
2) fact: Odds that your are 100% focused on mtgox , is highest as soon as you login.
3) the fact that the trader who placed the .01 bid happened to login 10 minutes after the hacker.. MAKES SENSE! Kevin got lucky by being in the right place at the right time.

These logs prove nothing.

Although the question remains, what was the motivation of the hacker to crash the market?
 


 

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June 21, 2011, 12:28:14 AM
 #120

I am unable to login to Mt. Gox.  Says they don't have my email.   Is this true for everyone or what. I really can't get a clear response. Thank you.
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June 21, 2011, 12:29:17 AM
 #121

This indicates that Kevin put that buy order for 0.01 almost an hour before the hacker started selling off everything. Which is a bit suspicious, I mean, who puts in buy orders for one cents, and $3000 worth of it to boot?

To be fair, I put one in on TradeHill just before I left home for a few hours, because I saw a paste of a paste of a paste of what was allegedly Atlas saying that if MtGox went through with the rollback he was going to liquidate his 250kBTC, and I thought "plz do".

The rollback response came AFTER the whole crash incident, what does your post incident order have to do with anything related to the crash ?

Whatever atlas posted afterwards was a response to what mtgox said he would do to manage this meltdown. Your buy order relation to the crash would be valid if you did it inbetween or before the crash.

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June 21, 2011, 12:30:26 AM
 #122

I am unable to login to Mt. Gox.  Says they don't have my email.   Is this true for everyone or what. I really can't get a clear response. Thank you.
This will be the case until they launch the account restoration page.
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June 21, 2011, 12:36:45 AM
 #123


Although the question remains, what was the motivation of the hacker to crash the market?

I can make an educated guess but dont take it as the absolute reason.

The hacker knew of the $1000 equiv maximum withdrawal daily limit and got access to a huge account (people arguing it may actually be mtgox aka the whole exchange account) and then proceeded to use half the funds to crash the market value down to 0.01 per BTC.

The hacker clearly didnt understand that the withdrawal is based on daily(or weekly, not 100% sure myself) weighted price thus when he crashed it down with half the BTC in the account he figured he would be able to withdraw the maximum of the remainder which would be 100 000 BTC except this failed miserably because the weighted price afaik were around $4.50 so he could withdraw a maximum of ~222 BTC.

This is my understanding as to why we are fortunate enough not to have lost 100 000 BTC with the crash withdrawal.

The interesting part however is that kevin seems to be the only person who gained a large purchase >260k BTC out of this which in itself makes it suspicious since thousands of traders were actively trading at that point and simply going with the "he was the lucky one" argument also doesnt fit.

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June 21, 2011, 12:40:01 AM
 #124


Agree 100%

Synaptic has to be the worst troll on this site.  He poisons nearly every thread.

Trust me, Synaptic is definately not the worst troll on this site.

I think he meant that he's the worst because he's not very good at it.
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June 21, 2011, 12:42:02 AM
 #125

/subbed.

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June 21, 2011, 12:44:01 AM
 #126

The interesting part however is that kevin seems to be the only person who gained a large purchase >260k BTC out of this which in itself makes it suspicious since thousands of traders were actively trading at that point and simply going with the "he was the lucky one" argument also doesnt fit.


If Kevin is the hacker, which seems a ridiculous conclusion to draw from this, but if he is, he must be both incredibly dumb and
in possession of an enormous pair of gonads.
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June 21, 2011, 12:45:22 AM
 #127

Notice : Clipse, just answered part of my concern above.

Trying to understand the motive of the hacker ,,, Why didn't he just moved parts if not all 500k BTC away from Mtgox ?  He didn't wanted his BTC to be eventually traced to him ?

Could the network had been modified as to effectively invalidate the stolen BTC ?  (I bet a lot of people wouldn't care less about the origin of their BTC)

How many dirt cheap BTC were withdrawn from MTgox after the crash ?  !!!

In other words, What was lost ? / Why not more ?
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June 21, 2011, 12:46:15 AM
 #128

MT, how does this square with you telling me a few days prior to the attack that there were no more individual user acct balances; just a global balance where everyone's coins are mixed together? 

you also told me that you had transferred the 432K on June 12 after the selloff from $30 to an offline site for protection.  but i then saw you make another transfer of those same btc's near the end of the attack.

just asking...
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June 21, 2011, 12:46:35 AM
 #129

I find it funny that Kevin (toasty)'s last post was 2 minutes before this thread was started. If he were truly innocent in all of this, wouldn't he be trying to explain himself in this matter?

Just because you see an unlocked car, with its windows down, at 1:30am in the middle of a shitty neighborhood, doesn't mean you can take the laptop and briefcase full of money from the front seat. Stealing is stealing.
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June 21, 2011, 12:47:26 AM
 #130


I think you guys owe us all at least a redacted version of what the hell actually happened.

Do you think that you could wait until they have had a chance to figure it out?

Another 6 months?

Does anyone still remember how MtGox handled the last situation where there was a large amount at stake for MtGox?

http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=3712.0

That guy explained himself, was hounded by the community, MtGox barely bothered to respond, made some outlandish claims, froze funds and rapidly moved the whole operation to a different jurisdiction (Japan) after the guy finaly decided to get lawyers involved.

MtGox promised to inform the community! No news yet, and it´s been 6 months!
That's at least the third time you've posted that now.  Not that I think you have an agenda or anything.

While we're quoting our own posts:
It's a controversial incident and I don't claim to have all the facts, but for the sake of cutting through the FUD... it's actually only been three months since Mt. Gox commented on this:
http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=3712.msg57901#msg57901
http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=3712.msg62282#msg62282

The last comment was that they couldn't say anything more because it might go to trial.  This will be satisfactory for some people and not for others, but there is no clear evidence that they ever behaved unprofessionally.


To be precise, it´s exactly the third time I have posted this information, because I do believe it to be relevant to the current situation with MtGox and I usually don´t post all that much despite reading the forums for quite some time.

Whilst you provided an ad hominem attack, I am still waiting for your answer to my question: Is it going to be (another) 6 month till MtGox resolves&explains the current situation?
For a currency that has gone really mainstream over just about the last month, this does not quite seem to cut it.

I´d be really interested to hear your response, if you´re not to busy hyping MtGox.

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June 21, 2011, 12:48:08 AM
 #131


Although the question remains, what was the motivation of the hacker to crash the market?

I can make an educated guess but dont take it as the absolute reason.

The hacker knew of the $1000 equiv maximum withdrawal daily limit and got access to a huge account (people arguing it may actually be mtgox aka the whole exchange account) and then proceeded to use half the funds to crash the market value down to 0.01 per BTC.

The hacker clearly didnt understand that the withdrawal is based on daily(or weekly, not 100% sure myself) weighted price thus when he crashed it down with half the BTC in the account he figured he would be able to withdraw the maximum of the remainder which would be 100 000 BTC except this failed miserably because the weighted price afaik were around $4.50 so he could withdraw a maximum of ~222 BTC.

This is my understanding as to why we are fortunate enough not to have lost 100 000 BTC with the crash withdrawal.

The interesting part however is that kevin seems to be the only person who gained a large purchase >260k BTC out of this which in itself makes it suspicious since thousands of traders were actively trading at that point and simply going with the "he was the lucky one" argument also doesnt fit.

Yes this was the story.. until the Kevin thing came along. Kevin's name can be cleared if we know that the hacker put in a bid for .01 on a second compromised account?

MagicalTux, to prove that Kevin is in on it, you must prove that  the hacker did not attempt to do this. Show us the bids below Kevin's that were not hit, and find out if those bids were put in my the legitimate user.  


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June 21, 2011, 12:51:42 AM
 #132

Notice : Clipse, just answered part of my concern above.

Trying to understand the motive of the hacker ,,, Why didn't he just moved parts if not all 500k BTC away from Mtgox ?  He didn't wanted his BTC to be eventually traced to him ?

Could the network had been modified as to effectively invalidate the stolen BTC ?  (I bet a lot of people wouldn't care less about the origin of their BTC)

How many dirt cheap BTC were withdrawn from MTgox after the crash ?  !!!

In other words, What was lost ? / Why not more ?

Before the crash he knew he couldnt move alot of BTC since the value was around $17.50 so by the $1000 limit he would only be able to withdraw ~57 BTC so he must have thought if he crash the market the price adjusted down to 0.01 then he could withdraw 100 000, he was wrong.

If he could get 100k out and wait around till everything subside in a couple of months(or even trade it on a lowdown black market) he could get away with the real value whatever it is at that time.

Again this is my personal opinion.

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June 21, 2011, 12:52:24 AM
 #133


MT posts some random selective login (why?) logs, and you immediately believe him? hmm.

I posted all the logins on Kevin's and the hacked account for May 19th.

so you are still using that BS story that it was ONE hacked account with 500k coins and a weak password that was found by MD5 hashing the database leaked by an auditor?
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June 21, 2011, 12:54:40 AM
 #134

The rollback response came AFTER the whole crash incident, what does your post incident order have to do with anything related to the crash ?

Whatever atlas posted afterwards was a response to what mtgox said he would do to manage this meltdown. Your buy order relation to the crash would be valid if you did it inbetween or before the crash.

My point was simply addressing the question "who puts in a huge buy order at $0.01". Answer: lots of people.

However what doesn't jibe is not that someone would put a big buy order in for a penny, but that Kevin said he put it in while he saw something was going on (rather the conclusion I drew from watching his interview was that when he placed the buy order, he knew full well they probably weren't legitimate trades), while MtGox appears to be claiming the buy orders were posted prior to the crash.

What I'm saying is it's not the big, next-to-nothing buy order that's suspicious, but the alleged timing of it (either way, whichever story is the truth).

^_^
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June 21, 2011, 12:54:45 AM
 #135

Notice : Clipse, just answered part of my concern above.

Trying to understand the motive of the hacker ,,, Why didn't he just moved parts if not all 500k BTC away from Mtgox ?  He didn't wanted his BTC to be eventually traced to him ?

Could the network had been modified as to effectively invalidate the stolen BTC ?  (I bet a lot of people wouldn't care less about the origin of their BTC)

How many dirt cheap BTC were withdrawn from MTgox after the crash ?  !!!

In other words, What was lost ? / Why not more ?

Before the crash he knew he couldnt move alot of BTC since the value was around $17.50 so by the $1000 limit he would only be able to withdraw ~57 BTC so he must have thought if he crash the market the price adjusted down to 0.01 then he could withdraw 100 000, he was wrong.

If he could get 100k out and wait around till everything subside in a couple of months(or even trade it on a lowdown black market) he could get away with the real value whatever it is at that time.

Again this is my personal opinion.

or it could've been a gov't or bank that wanted the btc price crashed...
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June 21, 2011, 12:54:52 AM
 #136


Although the question remains, what was the motivation of the hacker to crash the market?

I can make an educated guess but dont take it as the absolute reason.

The hacker knew of the $1000 equiv maximum withdrawal daily limit and got access to a huge account (people arguing it may actually be mtgox aka the whole exchange account) and then proceeded to use half the funds to crash the market value down to 0.01 per BTC.

The hacker clearly didnt understand that the withdrawal is based on daily(or weekly, not 100% sure myself) weighted price thus when he crashed it down with half the BTC in the account he figured he would be able to withdraw the maximum of the remainder which would be 100 000 BTC except this failed miserably because the weighted price afaik were around $4.50 so he could withdraw a maximum of ~222 BTC.

This is my understanding as to why we are fortunate enough not to have lost 100 000 BTC with the crash withdrawal.

The interesting part however is that kevin seems to be the only person who gained a large purchase >260k BTC out of this which in itself makes it suspicious since thousands of traders were actively trading at that point and simply going with the "he was the lucky one" argument also doesnt fit.

Yes this was the story.. until the Kevin thing came along. Kevin's name can be cleared if we know that the hacker put in a bid for .01 on a second compromised account?

MagicalTux, to prove that Kevin is in on it, you must prove that  the hacker did not attempt to do this. Show us the bids below Kevin's that were not hit, and find out if those bids were put in my the legitimate user.  



You miss the point, the hacker didnt try to buy his own rundown BTC.. that was put in place to drive the market down, it was most likely the part of the btc roll he planned to "liquidate" into the market thus being able to withdraw the remaining ~100 k but failed horribly.

If kevin is involved in this, he could have possibly known the hacker or if he is in fact just someone who got gold of the account details to more easily place the sell and wait for the drop then place the buy at 0.01.

This is pure speculation but it does seem somewhat plausable.

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June 21, 2011, 12:55:21 AM
 #137


Although the question remains, what was the motivation of the hacker to crash the market?

I can make an educated guess but dont take it as the absolute reason.

The hacker knew of the $1000 equiv maximum withdrawal daily limit and got access to a huge account (people arguing it may actually be mtgox aka the whole exchange account) and then proceeded to use half the funds to crash the market value down to 0.01 per BTC.

The hacker clearly didnt understand that the withdrawal is based on daily(or weekly, not 100% sure myself) weighted price thus when he crashed it down with half the BTC in the account he figured he would be able to withdraw the maximum of the remainder which would be 100 000 BTC except this failed miserably because the weighted price afaik were around $4.50 so he could withdraw a maximum of ~222 BTC.

This is my understanding as to why we are fortunate enough not to have lost 100 000 BTC with the crash withdrawal.

The interesting part however is that kevin seems to be the only person who gained a large purchase >260k BTC out of this which in itself makes it suspicious since thousands of traders were actively trading at that point and simply going with the "he was the lucky one" argument also doesnt fit.

Yes this was the story.. until the Kevin thing came along. Kevin's name can be cleared if we know that the hacker put in a bid for .01 on a second compromised account?

MagicalTux, to prove that Kevin is in on it, you must prove that  the hacker did not attempt to do this. Show us the bids below Kevin's that were not hit, and find out if those bids were put in my the legitimate user.  



Yes and it would help if he posted time stamps that matter: The time at which Kevin put his order in for 26k BTC @ 0.0101 and the time stamp where the hacker started the sell off. When they logged in is meaningless...
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June 21, 2011, 12:56:34 AM
 #138

Kevin had every right to do what he did, I know that 99% of you would jump at the opportunity if you executed the orders. Don't be jealous. We are all here for one thing to make money, stop pretending like your better than everyone else.
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June 21, 2011, 12:57:08 AM
 #139

Don't get the FBI involved. That is all bitcoin needs is the FBI looking through shit. Lets just move on and please make sure to keep your shit secure so this wont happen again.
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June 21, 2011, 12:57:21 AM
 #140

This is pure speculation but it does seem somewhat plausable.

but it is enough for a representative of an exchange handling millions of dollars to blame someone being the hacker?
very professional guys.
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June 21, 2011, 12:59:58 AM
 #141

Don't get the FBI involved. That is all bitcoin needs is the FBI looking through shit. Lets just move on and please make sure to keep your shit secure so this wont happen again.
+1

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June 21, 2011, 01:00:22 AM
 #142

WHENS MTGOX GOING LIVE? ITS ALREADY MORNING IN JAPAN!!

Caps so you can read!
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June 21, 2011, 01:01:04 AM
 #143

a representative of an exchange

um.. he IS the exchange

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June 21, 2011, 01:01:26 AM
 #144

MagicalTux, I put an order in and bought 99 bitcoins legitimately when I sensed that the price would go down. Can I keep those, practically nothing compared to the pool of coins that Kevin posted.

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June 21, 2011, 01:01:47 AM
 #145

WHENS MTGOX GOING LIVE? ITS ALREADY MORNING IN JAPAN!!

Caps so you can read!

read the announcement, there will be 24 hours of no trading.
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June 21, 2011, 01:02:54 AM
 #146

WHENS MTGOX GOING LIVE? ITS ALREADY MORNING IN JAPAN!!

Caps so you can read!

read the announcement, there will be 24 hours of no trading.

Yes, but im talking about password changing!
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June 21, 2011, 01:04:15 AM
 #147

a representative of an exchange

um.. he IS the exchange

I get that. just worded it that way to underline how ridiculous it is that a multi-million-dollar business makes accusation based on 2 logins at around the same time, and backs it up with an even more ridiculous story about a 500kBTC account with a weak password.

wanna tell "your side"? tell all of it.
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June 21, 2011, 01:06:27 AM
 #148

Kevin had every right to do what he did, I know that 99% of you would jump at the opportunity if you executed the orders. Don't be jealous. We are all here for one thing to make money, stop pretending like your better than everyone else.

I guess I am better than most people if this is your logic.

I was live trading via API and if I wanted could easily place orders when those 0.01 sells popped up but I didnt cause the whole slipstream down from 17.5 I knew what was going to happen with any half decent(and I think mtgox is actually more than half decent) exchange, they would resolve it as it is clear to any halfbrained trader that something fked up was going on.

I am confident that Im not the only trader who didnt go for it since it seems magically Kevin was the only one(or atleast 95%) of the total sell order fill. If that is just luck, I would walk into a bank and demand all their money since bullets wouldnt kill me.

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June 21, 2011, 01:11:32 AM
 #149



Nice quote manipulation, I never even said: "a representative of an exchange"

If you plan to quote, refrain from editing and modifying with your own bullshit please

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June 21, 2011, 01:20:08 AM
 #150

For kevin's future defense and/or possible civil claims for MagicalTux's libel I kindly request that everyone capable of doing so perform the following before MagicalTux edits and/or deletes the contents of his posts in this thread:

After printing this page to a pdf:

Code:
shasum magicaltux-libel.pdf > magicaltux-libel.pdf.sha1
shasum -a 224 magicaltux-libel.pdf >magicaltux-libel.pdf.sha224
shasum -a 256 magicaltux-libel.pdf >magicaltux-libel.pdf.sha256
shasum -a 384 magicaltux-libel.pdf >magicaltux-libel.pdf.sha384
shasum -a 512 magicaltux-libel.pdf >magicaltux-libel.pdf.sha512
for f in magicaltux-libel.pdf*; do gpg2 -s -a "$f"; done
mkdir magicaltux-libel
mv magicaltux-libel.pdf* magicaltux-libel/
tar -cvf magicaltux-libel.tar magicaltux-libel
bzip2 -9 magicaltux-libel.tar
shasum magicaltux-libel.tar.bz2 > magicaltux-libel.tar.bz2.sha1
shasum -a 224 magicaltux-libel.tar.bz2 >magicaltux-libel.tar.bz2.sha224
shasum -a 256 magicaltux-libel.tar.bz2 >magicaltux-libel.tar.bz2.sha256
shasum -a 384 magicaltux-libel.tar.bz2 >magicaltux-libel.tar.bz2.sha384
shasum -a 512 magicaltux-libel.tar.bz2 >magicaltux-libel.tar.bz2.sha512
for f in magicaltux-libel.tar.bz2*; do gpg2 -s -a "$f"; done
mv magicaltux-libel.tar.bz2*
mkdir magicaltux-libel-signed
tar -cvf magicaltux-libel-signed.tar magicaltux-libel-signed
bzip2 -9 magicaltux-libel-signed.tar

That is all.
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June 21, 2011, 01:28:28 AM
 #151

The title of this thread really needs to be changed to "I'm MtGox. Please bitch at me or spout out paranoia-fueled conspiracy theories for the next 20 pages rather than use this opportunity to ask the man in charge non-idiotic questions."

Here's a non-idiotic question (oh Jesus, I hope!):
A dude in another thread would like to know if his bank transfer that was initiated BEFORE the flash crash will be honored.

Similarly, will withdrawals that were initiated after the flash crash be honored, or will Mt. Gox attempt chargebacks and such?

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June 21, 2011, 01:29:23 AM
 #152

my guess is that MT can prove what time the $0.01 order went in (if not this post may be the most dumbtarded in the history of teh interwebz...lol), and IF so, that is suspicious as fuck, logging into an exchange that is currently over $17 and placing all your money on $0.01 buy orders before a flashcrash...lol

that is NOT a coincidence (if true)...

 
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June 21, 2011, 01:31:20 AM
 #153

what about the fact I was being charged double the 0.065% the entire weekend on every trade?
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June 21, 2011, 01:32:27 AM
 #154

The title of this thread really needs to be changed to "I'm MtGox. Please bitch at me or spout out paranoia-fueled conspiracy theories for the next 20 pages rather than use this opportunity to ask the man in charge non-idiotic questions."

Here's a non-idiotic question (oh Jesus, I hope!):
A dude in another thread would like to know if his bank transfer that was initiated BEFORE the flash crash will be honored.

Similarly, will withdrawals that were initiated after the flash crash be honored, or will Mt. Gox attempt chargebacks and such?

I'm sorry but this is a perfect time to mention what a dumbass MagicalTux is.

The lot of you, really.

Someone post that Commodus gif.
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June 21, 2011, 01:33:10 AM
 #155

Wouldn't the correct approach to handling exchanges (ie FIFO orders) be to LOCK the table while an active order was being fulfilled?

If the hardware upon which the architecture was being run was sufficient enough, there wouldn't have been a chance for opportunistic bidders to buy @0.01 unless they had done so prior to the sell off. In lieu of that, a db level lock would honor the desired FIFO result. I would assume Mt Gox is set up this way and as such all attempts to place bids during the sell off would result in ~ "Another transaction is taking place." Again, assuming this is the case, this would invalidate Kevin (toasty)'s claim that he made a "lucky" bid in the midst of the sell off.

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June 21, 2011, 01:36:08 AM
 #156

MagicalTux, I wanted to support you in this matter, but I learned a couple of disturbing things in this "my side" thread. Do I have this right:

You gave an outside party access to your customer's private information?

And then you called in the FBI?

If it is true, that you divulged our information, and caused it to be spread across the internet, then you are a moron.

But if you called in the FBI as you say you did, then I take it all back. Nobody is that fucking stupid. You are a Judas goat.

Google it.

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June 21, 2011, 01:41:22 AM
 #157

my guess is that MT can prove what time the $0.01 order went in (if not this post may be the most dumbtarded in the history of teh interwebz...lol), and IF so, that is suspicious as fuck, logging into an exchange that is currently over $17 and placing all your money on $0.01 buy orders before a flashcrash...lol
that is NOT a coincidence (if true)...

Guilty until proven innocent, eh?

You 'libertarians' should be buying your government trust bonds or something, not trading new liberal currency Wink
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June 21, 2011, 01:42:41 AM
 #158

MagicalTux, I put an order in and bought 99 bitcoins legitimately when I sensed that the price would go down. Can I keep those, practically nothing compared to the pool of coins that Kevin posted.

Not if I can't

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June 21, 2011, 01:42:55 AM
 #159

http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=20278.0

lulz and shit...

this is getting interesting...
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June 21, 2011, 01:43:15 AM
 #160

Let me show you the login logs for our hacker guy on his account full of bitcoins, and Kevin:

Code:
[2011/06/19 05:00:02] Hacker login
[2011/06/19 05:12:10] Kevin login
[2011/06/19 05:15:10] Hacker login
[2011/06/19 05:22:35] Hacker login
[2011/06/19 05:45:39] Hacker login
[2011/06/19 06:08:18] Hacker login
I don't understand. Which account? Kevin and the hacker used the same account?

Yeah Please Explain this Jargon, And what is it that you're implying by it?

He is saying that Kevin logged in 12 minutes after the attacker logged in to start the attack.  Not damning by itself, and almost certainly a coincidence, but still a connection that needs to be followed up, particularly in light of how it all played out.

And placed a buy order at 0.01 USD per btc.

Right. The first login was a test. The second one the beginning of a plan. The subsequent the execution of said plan.

Good luck Kevin. Hope it was worth it.
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June 21, 2011, 01:45:09 AM
 #161

Wouldn't the correct approach to handling exchanges (ie FIFO orders) be to LOCK the table while an active order was being fulfilled?

If the hardware upon which the architecture was being run was sufficient enough, there wouldn't have been a chance for opportunistic bidders to buy @0.01 unless they had done so prior to the sell off. In lieu of that, a db level lock would honor the desired FIFO result. I would assume Mt Gox is set up this way and as such all attempts to place bids during the sell off would result in ~ "Another transaction is taking place." Again, assuming this is the case, this would invalidate Kevin (toasty)'s claim that he made a "lucky" bid in the midst of the sell off.

This is a bad idea, but it isn't obvious to people that haven't written or worked with large exchange markets.

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June 21, 2011, 01:45:30 AM
 #162

- If Kevin were the hacker, why not set a buy order first, then (hours or days later), put the stolen BTC up for sale?
- Were all 500,000 BTC really from the same account?
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June 21, 2011, 01:47:22 AM
 #163

So let me get this straight:

1. The market for Bitcoins on Mt. Gox crashed.
2. No explanation for this crash other than a "hacker did it" and our "auditors" had access to our site and somehow has a need for a DB of user/passwords. No mention of who the auditors for "privacy reasons" (which is a load of bullshit as no auditor-issuer relationship for any capital market transaction requires non-disclousure)
3. Failing to directly talk to the community on Bruce Wagner's interview and instead have an uninformed intermediary speak because "Mark's English is bad".
4. Coming on here, providing vague details ONLY after their hand is forced by "Kevin"
5. Threatening to rope in the FBI.

... and yet dozens of you are lining up to heap praise on "the professionalism" Mt. Gox is showing, offering reasons why they shouldn't be ridiculed for failing to provide the most basic security implementations, making excuses for why Mt. Gox isn't elaborating more on who's coins were stolen, and labeling anyone a troll who dares to point out the obvious incompetence of this company?

This sort of behavior is akin to that displayed by religious fundamentalists. And that's really what most of you are. Bitcoin is some sort of religion for you and Magical Tux is your fucking omniscient and untaintable prophet.

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June 21, 2011, 01:48:10 AM
 #164

Id like to see an independent third party investigation or arbitration. This whole episode stinks.




Edit: magical tux what gave you the right to hand over our personal details without permission to some untrustable third party without notifying us ? Who else have you given this data too?
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June 21, 2011, 01:50:20 AM
 #165

Quote
placing all your money on $0.01 buy orders

this happens everyday if not every hour. its a simple strategy.. its actually a Flash Crash strategy.. its well known and used by many.. why not put a bid at .01 at all times.. just in case you are the lucky one?

So odds are that someone did this just before the Flash crash, especially if it was heavy trading hour. currency Wink

Its like telling the lottery winner, he must have cheated because it cant be just a "coincidence" that he picked all the correct numbers!

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June 21, 2011, 01:52:38 AM
 #166

So let me get this straight:

1. The market for Bitcoins on Mt. Gox crashed.
2. No explanation for this crash other than a "hacker did it" and our "auditors" had access to our site and somehow has a need for a DB of user/passwords. No mention of who the auditors for "privacy reasons" (which is a load of bullshit as no auditor-issuer relationship for any capital market transaction requires non-disclousure)
3. Failing to directly talk to the community on Bruce Wagner's interview and instead have an uninformed intermediary speak because "Mark's English is bad".
4. Coming on here, providing vague details ONLY after their hand is forced by "Kevin"
5. Threatening to rope in the FBI.

... and yet dozens of you are lining up to heap praise on "the professionalism" Mt. Gox is showing, offering reasons why they shouldn't be ridiculed for failing to provide the most basic security implementations, making excuses for why Mt. Gox isn't elaborating more on who's coins were stolen, and labeling anyone a troll who dares to point out the obvious incompetence of this company?

This sort of behavior is akin to that displayed by religious fundamentalists. And that's really what most of you are. Bitcoin is some sort of religion for you and Magical Tux is your fucking omniscient and untaintable prophet.
I've given up on this community.  They show no ability to form rational judgments.  This situation is an example of the community's stupidity.  They trust some idiot in Japan that 1) had security exploits, 2) was most likely hacked, 3) offers no reasonable explanation for what happened, 4) posts confidential user information (time of user logins).

I seriously hope MtGox ends up in jail for this.  He deserves to be in jail for being incompetent and potentially losing millions of dollars.  This is fraudulent behavior and it should not be tolerated by the rule of law.  I hope to god he contacts the FBI, and wonder why he hasn't already.  Maybe because he's liable and scared shitless.

The idiots on this forum tolerating it are akin to religious fanatics, as you say.
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June 21, 2011, 01:53:50 AM
 #167

Quote
placing all your money on $0.01 buy orders

this happens everyday if not every hour. its a simple strategy.. its actually a Flash Crash strategy.. its well known and used by many.. why not put a bid at .01 at all times.. just in case you are the lucky one?

So odds are that someone did this just before the Flash crash, especially if it was heavy trading hour. currency Wink

Its like telling the lottery winner, he must have cheated because it cant be just a "coincidence" that he picked all the correct numbers!

Idiot.

You can't believe anything MtGox says.   ANYTHING.

GET THE FEDS INVOLVED.

That's honestly the only solution here.

Say bye bye to all your bitcoins.
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June 21, 2011, 01:54:23 AM
 #168

So let me get this straight:

1. The market for Bitcoins on Mt. Gox crashed.
2. No explanation for this crash other than a "hacker did it" and our "auditors" had access to our site and somehow has a need for a DB of user/passwords. No mention of who the auditors for "privacy reasons" (which is a load of bullshit as no auditor-issuer relationship for any capital market transaction requires non-disclousure)
3. Failing to directly talk to the community on Bruce Wagner's interview and instead have an uninformed intermediary speak because "Mark's English is bad".
4. Coming on here, providing vague details ONLY after their hand is forced by "Kevin"
5. Threatening to rope in the FBI.

... and yet dozens of you are lining up to heap praise on "the professionalism" Mt. Gox is showing, offering reasons why they shouldn't be ridiculed for failing to provide the most basic security implementations, making excuses for why Mt. Gox isn't elaborating more on who's coins were stolen, and labeling anyone a troll who dares to point out the obvious incompetence of this company?

This sort of behavior is akin to that displayed by religious fundamentalists. And that's really what most of you are. Bitcoin is some sort of religion for you and Magical Tux is your fucking omniscient and untaintable prophet.

Its a French thing. nothing more. dont read into it.. its different culture and language.. giant miscommunication..

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June 21, 2011, 01:57:32 AM
 #169

MagicalTux, I wanted to support you in this matter, but I learned a couple of disturbing things in this "my side" thread. Do I have this right:

You gave an outside party access to your customer's private information?

And then you called in the FBI?

If it is true, that you divulged our information, and caused it to be spread across the internet, then you are a moron.

But if you called in the FBI as you say you did, then I take it all back. Nobody is that fucking stupid. You are a Judas goat.

Google it.

Well done sir, you didnt read the thread.

Other fktards commented and joked about bringing in the FBI.

MTGOX said he would report this to the proper authorities.

That is a huge difference.

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June 21, 2011, 01:57:56 AM
 #170

That's at least the third time you've posted that now.  Not that I think you have an agenda or anything.

While we're quoting our own posts:
It's a controversial incident and I don't claim to have all the facts, but for the sake of cutting through the FUD... it's actually only been three months since Mt. Gox commented on this:
http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=3712.msg57901#msg57901
http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=3712.msg62282#msg62282

The last comment was that they couldn't say anything more because it might go to trial.  This will be satisfactory for some people and not for others, but there is no clear evidence that they ever behaved unprofessionally.
To be precise, it´s exactly the third time I have posted this information, because I do believe it to be relevant to the current situation with MtGox and I usually don´t post all that much despite reading the forums for quite some time.

Whilst you provided an ad hominem attack, I am still waiting for your answer to my question: Is it going to be (another) 6 month till MtGox resolves&explains the current situation?
For a currency that has gone really mainstream over just about the last month, this does not quite seem to cut it.

I´d be really interested to hear your response, if you´re not to busy hyping MtGox.
I wasn't aware any question had been directed at me.  If one was, it probably shouldn't have been, because I don't have access to any more information than you do.  "Not that I think you have an agenda or anything," was admittedly a fairly immature way for me to say, "you obviously have an agenda."  That's fine though, so do I, although it is not "hyping Mt. Gox", but merely to do what little I can to counteract the misinformation and character assassination that seems to be spreading so rapidly with regard to all parties in this hacking matter.  Based on what I've seen of the behaviour of these parties, I do currently side with Mt. Gox, but that could change very quickly as the facts come out.

I was trying to point out in the post that I quoted that the question "Is it going to be (another) 6 month till MtGox resolves&explains the current situation?" is meaningless.  There is no sense in which Mt. Gox has been unresponsive for six months, so I don't know how you came up with that arbitrary figure.  If you are referring to the amount of time since the accusation you linked to was originally made against Mt. Gox, your apparent expectation that the matter should be entirely resolved by now is simply unreasonable.  Mt. Gox has issued many statements on the matter, the last of which said that it was likely going to court and for this reason could not divulge any more information.  Court proceedings take a long time.  What more could they have done by now to satisfy you?
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June 21, 2011, 02:00:54 AM
 #171

Quote
GET THE FEDS INVOLVED.

It would be a fitting end to the libertarian currency called Bitcoin.


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June 21, 2011, 02:01:22 AM
 #172

Quote
The idiots on this forum tolerating it are akin to religious fanatics, as you say.

bottom line is.. he delivered a high-liquid exchange for BCTs.. I've got BOTs trading 24/7 . us traders enjoy mtgox exchange and many are making lots of $ of newfags who think they know how to trade.

give us an alternative and we wont give a shit about mtgox. Mtgox is fundamentally flawed and will not survive in its curent form. but it the best we got for USDBTC liquidity.

liquidity bitches.... liquidity


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June 21, 2011, 02:04:07 AM
 #173

Kevin just got lucky, and everyone that was connected to the MtGox websocket stream has proof.

Here's what happened:
The hacker set an outrageous order for .01 at 17:15:38. At 17:51:16 Kevin's order, along with SEVERAL others, hit. That is because the hacker's order had finally exhausted all the amounts at one cent and greater, prompting the typical "your entire order can't be filled at this price" prompt for the hacker.

And yes, it took 35 minutes to process one order.

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June 21, 2011, 02:06:19 AM
 #174

MT GOX. You have 4K BTC and 4K USD of my money hostage. I dont like it when people fuck with my money. Stop playing and open up the exchange site.

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June 21, 2011, 02:12:10 AM
 #175


I think you guys owe us all at least a redacted version of what the hell actually happened.

Do you think that you could wait until they have had a chance to figure it out?

Another 6 months?

Does anyone still remember how MtGox handled the last situation where there was a large amount at stake for MtGox?

http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=3712.0

That guy explained himself, was hounded by the community, MtGox barely bothered to respond, made some outlandish claims, froze funds and rapidly moved the whole operation to a different jurisdiction (Japan) after the guy finaly decided to get lawyers involved.

MtGox promised to inform the community! No news yet, and it´s been 6 months!
That's at least the third time you've posted that now.  Not that I think you have an agenda or anything.

While we're quoting our own posts:
It's a controversial incident and I don't claim to have all the facts, but for the sake of cutting through the FUD... it's actually only been three months since Mt. Gox commented on this:
http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=3712.msg57901#msg57901
http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=3712.msg62282#msg62282

The last comment was that they couldn't say anything more because it might go to trial.  This will be satisfactory for some people and not for others, but there is no clear evidence that they ever behaved unprofessionally.


To be precise, it´s exactly the third time I have posted this information, because I do believe it to be relevant to the current situation with MtGox and I usually don´t post all that much despite reading the forums for quite some time.

Whilst you provided an ad hominem attack, I am still waiting for your answer to my question: Is it going to be (another) 6 month till MtGox resolves&explains the current situation?
For a currency that has gone really mainstream over just about the last month, this does not quite seem to cut it.

I´d be really interested to hear your response, if you´re not to busy hyping MtGox.
I wasn't aware any question had been directed at me.  If one was, it probably shouldn't have been, because I don't have access to any more information than you do.  "Not that I think you have an agenda or anything," was admittedly a fairly immature way for me to say, "you obviously have an agenda."  That's fine though, so do I, although it is not "hyping Mt. Gox", but merely to do what little I can to counteract the misinformation and character assassination that seems to be spreading so rapidly with regard to all parties in this hacking matter.  Based on what I've seen of the behaviour of these parties, I do currently side with Mt. Gox, but that could change very quickly as the facts come out.

I was trying to point out in the post that I quoted that the question "Is it going to be (another) 6 month till MtGox resolves&explains the current situation?" is meaningless.  There is no sense in which Mt. Gox has been unresponsive for six months, so I don't know how you came up with that arbitrary figure.  If you are referring to the amount of time since the accusation you linked to was originally made against Mt. Gox, your apparent expectation that the matter should be entirely resolved by now is simply unreasonable.  Mt. Gox has issued many statements on the matter, the last of which said that it was likely going to court and for this reason could not divulge any more information.  Court proceedings take a long time.  What more could they have done by now to satisfy you?

Get a room!

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June 21, 2011, 02:12:26 AM
 #176

Something's happening, Mt. Gox just reappeared on bitcoincharts.com, but it's still not possible to log in...
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June 21, 2011, 02:13:36 AM
 #177

@jaybny  Sorry, that is a bit of a quotepuke, isn't it?  I'll trim that down...

Don't want to derail the thread any worse than it already has been.
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June 21, 2011, 02:14:31 AM
 #178



Quote
The idiots on this forum tolerating it are akin to religious fanatics, as you say.

bottom line is.. he delivered a high-liquid exchange for BCTs.. I've got BOTs trading 24/7 . us traders enjoy mtgox exchange and many are making lots of $ of newfags who think they know how to trade.

give us an alternative and we wont give a shit about mtgox. Mtgox is fundamentally flawed and will not survive in its curent form. but it the best we got for USDBTC liquidity.

liquidity bitches.... liquidity


If you knew how to trade you wouldn't be trading bitcoins, religious fanatic.

Grow a brain.
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June 21, 2011, 02:15:58 AM
 #179

Sorry but this thread is just dumb.

A major attraction (you know, one of the things that gives it value) of BitCoin is that it (can be) anonymous and without centralized authority.

The second that one market is caught with its pants down and arse hanging out, hordes of people want to run to the FBI? What is wrong with you? Indeed, is MtGox bound by its ToS to not pass on information?

For those wanting an indepentent enquiry, etc. I see your point but am afraid that this is the price BTC pays for having no central authority. MtGox has carte blanche to do what it likes - you gave it your money.


Fortunately, there is a solution... For everyone!

If you are a MtGox fanboi, go and put your money there (if/when it returns).

If you are a paranoid cynic, don't put your money there.


Personally, I think that this is a fantastic wake-up call for us all to actually and carefully consider where we put our money. I am new to this community and do not wish to tread on any toes.

One brilliant aspect of bitcoin is that it has inspired people to try to create their own businesses and empires. Hopefully this whole episode will better focus that passion into more considered, diligent and professional business practices and ethics.

Ultimately, it appears that all of us each share part of the decisions which will ultimately result in many startups failing and the deserving ones succeeding.


BB.
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June 21, 2011, 02:18:59 AM
 #180

The valuable posts in this thread occurred in the first three pages, the quality of posts have declined since.  I'm locking this thread.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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