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Author Topic: Theoretically a branch of Bitcoin including IP addresses in the blocks  (Read 4789 times)
BenRayfield
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June 23, 2011, 04:46:00 AM
 #21

You're all probably right that there's no decentralized way to make Bitcoin less anonymous except for people who don't try much to be anonymous. I'll proceed with my program, first building a centralized prototype to try it on a small scale, and if that goes well, expand it to a decentralized network. It will be at http://FreeSpeechJustPayShipping.com

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BenRayfield
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June 23, 2011, 04:52:58 AM
 #22

Either way, a cryptocurrency backed forum and associative search engine (all the same network shape, not different systems) will unify money and communication, forcing laws that apply to one to deal with the other, and some big stuff is going to go down as a result. Usually money+communication=advertising, but that is 1 of many things to use Free Speech Just Pay Shipping for. Would governments dare shut down a network used by businesses for advertising? I don't think so, and as a result everyone else can write whatever they want. We need the ability to communicate about the secret bull that is the cause of all these wars and bull out of politician's mouths. Pandora's box is open, and nobody can do anything about it. As we speak, and in increasing amounts all the time, governments are being investigated for why they're causing all these wars, screwing up our society, and forcing us toward extinction. This software will be a reliable storage location where such things can be written for all to see, instead of what governments have been doing to the news and radio. Governments, while I do not mean anything violent by this, the jig is up, and you're caught with your pants down, so I suggest you stop screwing that hooker and apologize. You can't fool us anymore.

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BenRayfield
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June 24, 2011, 09:53:45 AM
 #23

Instead of IP addresses, would OpenID work?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Openid
http://openid.net

I don't know enough about them to trust their network (which they say is decentralized and not owned by anyone) or to know if their rules are compatible with what I'm planning.

If somehow the OpenID network took control of, or started regulating in an unreasonable way, the Free Speech Just Pay Shipping network I'm planning, then we could simply branch the code and create an anonymous version at that time, and they know that which would motivate them to mind their own business except for authenticating my system through OpenID.

Bitcoin and similar networks are going to meet heavy resistance from some parts of governments, and maybe support from other parts (since they fight eachother even within the same organization), when Bitcoin and such networks become popular enough.

I'm thinking that my new network will have attractive enough features that if I go with the identity system those in power are already using in a decentralized way, they'll accept the network as a legitimate part of their infrastructure and it will give them a tool they need to obsolete the Federal Reserve and replace it with new kinds of money that regulate themselves, making the economy more efficient and adding more flexible ways to define and use money. I think a lot of big players out there want to change the paradigm but don't see any way to do it.

Since all Google and Yahoo (and many others) users can get an OpenID based on their existing accounts, there is a huge group of potential users.

But will it work, can it be trusted, and would OpenID's group of authenticating websites (which is decentralized) have rules that contradict what I'm trying to do with Free Speech Just Pay Shipping, which is to pay cryptocurrency to put any text you want into the network? They would probably have a problem with the free speech part (You can't say certain things against government! That's a coverupxx I mean a secret), but I see no reason they would have a problem with a branch of Bitcoin that did nothing except connect to OpenID and its normal money stuff.

If Google, Yahoo, and other big players are connected to a branch of Bitcoin software even indirectly through OpenID, the Federal Reserve doesn't have a chance. Corporations are the masters of governments. After decentralized economy becomes normal for most people, the completely decentralized kind like Bitcoin is now obsoletes those corporations, and we're left with a decentralized society. Maybe some of you should create such a branch (after looking into the rules of OpenID, which appear to be missing from that website, maybe intentionally since its not owned by anyone they say), while I do Free Speech Just Pay Shipping.

You would still have a wallet file. Controlling the OpenID, if theoretically they could, would not let Google or Yahoo get to your money. OpenID number (or whatever data they use) would just be another part of the bitcoin blocks, and my version of the program would reject any blocks that don't have valid OpenID numbers (verifying them a small number of times and then hashing them into the blocks permanently). We could maybe add some code that allows money not used for long enough (frozen by whoever controls OpenID?) to be used anonymously using those same keys, so if they freeze it it gets unfrozen automatically after some time. Lots of ways such systems may interact, but don't want to reduce the provability of the identification system. What do you think?

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BenRayfield
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June 25, 2011, 02:27:46 AM
 #24

I've sent the following message to Venessa Miemis ( http://emergentbydesign.com ), an emergent leader of the underground in a collective intelligence way. I write this here too because there are many who could also help, but I know of none more qualified than her.

I don't know how well they are legally or technically compatible, but if anything can work this is the most probable to work. Otherwise the conflict between underground and governments/corporations is going to escalate toward a huge war. Can you help with the strategic social parts of this, convince people on both sides such an alliance is a good thing and has unique benefits of cryptocurrencies?

More info at http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=20320.0  and the part about OpenID, which I just thought of last night, is near the top of the second page on that thread.

I don't know much about the Ven, but I know that to defeat the Federal Reserve and the corruption that comes with it (including the military industrial complex) we need businesses to accept a decentralized currency as part of their infrastructure.

You are uniquely qualified to get people to come to an agreement on these things. The world needs you. Will you help?

I understand how Bitcoin works well enough to know it can be done, but I do not know if an extreme effort on the part of OpenID would be needed to become compatible with the changes I would need to make to the open-source bitcoin code. This would be a new network, not interfering with the existing bitcoin network. The purpose is to make a new currency that is less anonymous so businesses will use it, and for that to lead to more innovation in money systems as people see what is really possible. Its not a question of if its possible. Its a question of how much changes to these 2 systems would be needed. If we can convince both sides (governments/corporations and the underground) that a huge war is the only alternative, they will make the effort.

You know that "anonymous" group which supposedly hacked at Federal Reserve's computers? That's nothing compared to whats coming if we don't bring the underground and authorities together.

This would be backed by the constant threat of the underground creating anonymous networks if the identity-based networks start to be abused by authorities, so that is like a system of "checks and balances" as any government or global organization needs.

The most important part is that its a double key system. You need your wallet file from the modified Bitcoin software AND your OpenID to get to any money. Lose 1 key and the money is frozen forever.

There is a way to design the network so it auto unfreezes after some event, but only if you can define such an event, and I wouldn't know what event a decentralized network could consistently understand, because if the event is OpenID stops letting you into the network for a month, you could simply not log in for a month and get around the identity requirements. It would have to be something based on chaos-theory or something we haven't thought of. Probably best to let OpenID freeze accounts by not letting you log in, but they still don't get the money because both keys are needed and one is decentralized with the private key in your USB stick or computer.

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BenRayfield
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June 25, 2011, 04:45:51 AM
 #25

USA used to be a great country, with separation of church and state, democratic elections that really changed things, and more, but the Federal Reserve has turned our government against us and some extremists against our government.

I'm still very happy that I feel safe (not expecting anyone to show up at my door demanding I stop writing these things or lock me up, but maybe later when the conflicts escalate) writing these things, so there is that freedom, but freedom must be constantly protected and expanded.

Wouldn't you like the government to again be something people are excited about, like it was when USA was first formed to get away from a very bad government. The government was their friend. They had thoughts like "What can I do to help my government do its job better, so it can help the people more?" But now that has turned into "What can I do to fight the government politically and economically and sometimes (for some extreme groups) violently?" USA's government has become a parasite because of the Federal Reserve controlling it. Let's give them a second chance, and form this alliance between decentralization and identity verification, and rip out the heart of the parasite - the Federal Reserve - leaving a government that wants to help us because we want to help it, a democracy. USA is not a democracy anymore, but it can be again if we decentralize the global economy with a double key system like I described, one key held by the authorities and one held by each person, both keys needed to access any money.

The Federal Reserve and USA are not the only examples of this, but as far as I know its the strongest example, and when the Federal Reserve goes bankrupt (and it will one way or another), the others will follow. We don't need to have secret meetings, organize rebellions, expand Patriot Acts, torture prisoners of war for information, or hack at the Federal Reserve's computers ("anonymous", you are working against your own goals, and so was wikileaks when they supposedly hacked at various financial systems instead of limiting themselves to distribution of files). Lets all simply agree that the central banking system goes away, build a secure open-source decentralized identity-proving system to replace it, and the Federal Reserve goes away gradually due to market forces (open-source people work for free, and Federal Reserve can't compete, our transaction rates will be paid directly to the network and will be set by market forces, approaching the cost of running the internet hardware, pennies instead of dollars), a revolution where nobody gets hurt or goes to jail.

But which open-source system to use? All of them. Let the free market decide, as long as they use the same identity verification system. Like in Bitcoin, all transactions are public, but public-keys are not people's names and nobody except the authorities need to know who owns what key.

Its as simple as that, and we are going to do it. When we build one, the businesses will line up to get access, and then the competition starts. We're not going to vote on it. We're not going to change laws. We're just going to build it, use it, and later make laws that restrict how it can be used. As it is today, there are no laws about cryptocurrencies. What we do in the next few years will determine what laws are created.

World War 3 is cancelled. Everybody go home and think about the dumbass thoughts that led you into this, and maybe read some Sun Tzu strategy. Anyone who owns stock in centralized banks or related things would be wise to get out now.

As a child, they had me "pledge allegience to the flag of the United States Of America", and I must take that back. I pledge allegience to the Human species and all life forms. Patriotism just isn't good enough anymore, and if you serve yourself or only some group, you're going to find the economy flows away from you as people learn this fact because new equations for economies will compete the way products and businesses compete today. That's what such a double-key identity-verifying open-source economy will do.

We will design economies, using the same identity-verification system, that automatically influence society toward whatever we want it to do. Money is voting. Its true today and it will continue to be true, but the definition of money will advance until it merges with our brainwaves through devices like the Emotiv Epoc or OpenEEG. I just found a shortcut to this "technology singularity" Kurzweil and others are talking about. We're going to implement it in the economy laws, starting with an identity-verified branch of Bitcoin. We are going to mass-produce intergalactic starships, after we reorganize society using this new paradigm, to build the tools to build the more advanced tools... leading to anything we want. Its an exponential pattern. Its too simple to misunderstand, but it works.

Quote
My Administration is committed to creating an unprecedented level of openness in Government. We will work together to ensure the public trust and establish a system of transparency, public participation, and collaboration. Openness will strengthen our democracy and promote efficiency and effectiveness in government.
--Barack Obama, 1/21/2009 http://www.whitehouse.gov/open

Looks like Obama may want to help with this. What's more open than open-source? I can't say when this will happen, but I would find it very interesting and ironic if the first black president of USA freed the slaves, since we're all slaves to money. But who knows when such systems would all get connected and make this happen?

Anyone interested in building a working prototype or connecting it to identification systems like OpenID? This thread is in the technical section. Lets talk technical.

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June 25, 2011, 10:54:51 AM
 #26

If the goal is simply to make bitcoin less anonymous, what is wrong with a *voluntary* database mapping public bitcoin addresses to OpenID (or some other ID)? Technically this'd be similar to PGP key servers.

Merchants could then require that people sending coins to them are registered in this database.  People sending coins could require that the merchant is registered in this database. As I see it, that's the only free market compliant way to do this and might actually work if marketed right.

Especially for organizations that promote public transparency in how they spend their money, such as charities, this'd make sense.

And it'd only require a few pretty trivial changes to the client.

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BenRayfield
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June 25, 2011, 11:14:38 AM
 #27

If its voluntary, then when money goes to fund some criminal activity on a large scale, they will not choose to use the identity system, and based on that fact, governments will fight this system for the same reason they will fight Bitcoin when it becomes popular enough.

The point of the identity system is to make it similar enough to existing financial systems that governments and businesses will accept it as part of their infrastructure. That's not going to happen with Bitcoin as it is now or with that small change you said.

I'm not saying to get rid of Bitcoin, since we need it for the "checks and balances" I said above, but to defeat the Federal Reserve, a system would have to comply with financial laws, and that means authorities can match identities to transactions and freeze accounts. They won't do it too much, because of the "checks and balances". We'll use the identity based system as long as they regulate it in a reasonable way. They already know that's true, since Bitcoin exists for that reason.

The system I described is superior to the current economic system in all ways I can think of, and on the underground side, the double-key system requires a person's permission for every movement of their money. If government wanted to take your money, they couldn't force you to give up your key, since you may delete it or hide it, but they can stop you from using your money by not letting you log into OpenID or whatever system.

Offer businesses an alternative to the Federal Reserve dictatorship and they'll sign up quickly. Offer them an anonymous currency and they'll fear what government will do to them when such currency is used to fund illegal things on a large scale.

I'm ok with giving government control of these things because we're quickly going to use these things to change government into a real democracy that reacts quickly to what the people want. I'm not afraid of a government that is not biased by a dictatorship money system, but as it is now, the military-industrial-complex will get stronger until it destroys us all.

When authorities accept this system, allowing open-source variations of it to connect into the standard identity interface, equations of economies will evolve the way products evolve today. We will have thousands of competing equations for economies, and whichever work best get more people to use them, more invested in them. These equations will become more advanced until they are artificial intelligence. Then the Human species is as powerful as Star Trek's Borg Collective, without the part where they assimilate you and turn you into a machine. We can connect this to Emotiv Epoc ($300, buy it now, really it exists) and OpenEEG mind reading devices, but that would be a different project built on top of this. Right now, lets stick to a simple number, plus, and minus, like Bitcoin.

Voluntarily track identities in a database? That's not the point.

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June 25, 2011, 11:24:18 AM
 #28

How does that preclude my idea? A government could force its usage by forcing merchants and vendors on their territory to only accept transactions from whitelisted addresses that are in the database.

It must be voluntary because BTC is a global system and it'd be impossible to get all governments of earth to agree on the requirements.

Bitcoin Core developer [PGP] Warning: For most, coin loss is a larger risk than coin theft. A disk can die any time. Regularly back up your wallet through FileBackup Wallet to an external storage or the (encrypted!) cloud. Use a separate offline wallet for storing larger amounts.
BenRayfield
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June 25, 2011, 11:36:51 AM
 #29

If something calculated from the identity keys (still a lot of details to work out, but it can be done) are not in the Bitcoin-like blocks, then the network could be accessed through a modified open-source program to get around the identity verification while using the same network. Your idea is not identity-secure.

I have nothing against your idea, but it offers little benefit above what Bitcoin already does.

I want it to be voluntary to use one system or another. Use dollars, Bitcoin, or any of the economies that evolve in my system.

Governments don't have to agree on anything since its currently not illegal to build the system I described (except in China and probably a few others), and I don't expect it to start being illegal any time soon because people will notice what I wrote and work toward it.

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BenRayfield
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June 25, 2011, 12:45:30 PM
 #30

The implementation....

2 private keys. Authorities have 1. Each person has the other. 2 public keys, go in the blocks, same as Bitcoin already does for 1 key pair.

Its really simple. When digitally-signing a new block, it needs to be signed by both private keys, and both those signatures go in the blocks. The block has to be sent to authorities to be signed, since they're not giving out their key, and the result sent to the Bitcoin-like program, which combines the keys, signatures, and everything else the normal way Bitcoin does it.

There is also a third key pair held by the authorities which is used to sign each of many public keys of the authorities. Based on that, each node in the network will verify that identity signatures really are from authorities instead of made up the same way personal key pairs are.

End of modifications needed to Bitcoin software, until cryptocurrency laws are created, and then a little more code. If you want paperwork, we'll build an automatic printer function. Complete automation.

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June 25, 2011, 06:20:59 PM
 #31

Please stop double/triple/quadruple/multi posting!

Just build a prototype, as you suggested, and present it here. I doubt you will get much help in making a system similar to Bitcoin that can be censored/controlled by "authorities" (Why should they pay for that infrastructure in the first place? What about internationality?) here and you seem to have quite concrete ideas anyways - just go, write code, test and present your findings!

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June 26, 2011, 02:19:05 AM
 #32

His posts are fine. He's fleshing out ideas. Want longer posts insteaed of many? Whats the diff.

Anyway, I dont understand why allowing identification is going to mitigate a trust issue. We already have a solution in bitcoin to mitigate trust issues. Using another identity one allows people to wear identity badges, like nice little 6 pointed stars that some people were forced to wear in some societies, to grossly detrimental effects.

Anonymity should be a right of the people and every person in this future society - the only difference is that anonymity allows the exploitation or damage of the system in our current society, in the new society there wont be any benefits to this anonymity, just protection from others damaging them. No group will be economically identifiable over any other.

Need a better way than giving up anonymity into the current hegemony to convince bitcoin users to merge into and takeover the existing system.
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June 26, 2011, 02:41:35 AM
 #33

Isnt IPv4 getting superseeded, you know by IPv6.
Whats stopping IPv6 getting superseeded.
The currency can only be backed by pure math to be futureproof.
BenRayfield
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July 01, 2011, 03:20:59 AM
 #34

Since this isn't about IP addresses anymore (a general identity verifying interface for many economies), we can continue in this thread: http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=23054.0 titled "A Compromise To Avoid World War 3".

IPv4 vs IPv6 could be done by using 128 bits for each address in the block and wasting most of them in the case of IPv4, or it could be dynamic size addresses.

Anonymity has the advantage of privacy (of course) and protecting you from unreasonable authorities and allowing you to organize underground societies to peacefully obsolete such authorities, but it has the disadvantage that violent people will use it to fund their wars and political corruption. Anonymity is needed to advance the Human species but where its allowed should be chosen carefully to balance these things. I'm undecided what I think about it, but I'm sure I'll figure it out as demonstrations of these pros and cons occur on global scales. For now I think we should keep identity based and anonymous systems around and use them freely, as an experiment to see what happens and how they interact with eachother.

I will write code when enough people agree with my writing, which I am not limiting to this forum, so I know people will use it. This is more a social thing than a technical thing.

Please post further responses in the thread I linked, or post below about a system of storing IP addresses in blocks, but I have no interest in such an IP address system anymore unless new info is found that lets them be known reliably.

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