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Author Topic: Regulating Bitcoin Exchanges  (Read 1097 times)
cryptoanarchist
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June 21, 2011, 02:57:55 AM
 #1

Can I politely tell exchange site owners that want to work with governments to kill themselves?

Really, what you want to do contradicts the whole purpose of bitcoins. Because it is an untraceable system, its not meant to be regulated. Learn to rely on REPUTATION, NOT REGULATION.

Reputation allows the buyer to make the decision. I saw mtgox having problems and quit using them long before their crash. I've had an easier time with the smaller exchanges, and I'm glad to help get them started - the more competition, the better.

Regulation is just created to monopolize the industry. The scum of humanity wants to use the guns of the state to determine who can and can't have an exchange based on THEIR criteria - may the exchange who is the biggest bootlicker win. (yeah, I'm talking to you, britcoin guy). Never mind what the customers want, scum like these people say they know what's best for you better than you do.

Seriously, start using other exchanges and help get this thing decentralized. The powers that be want to use the old 'problem, reaction, solution' technique to gain control of exchanges. They did the same thing in the late 1800s and early 1900s to stoke fear about using gold and silver as money. ("people are hoarding gold and causing panics, better regulate the monetary system with a Federal Reserve!")

I promise to boycott any exchange that so much as mentions working with government and pushing regulation. I hope the rest of you will do the same.
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bitcoin.monger
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June 21, 2011, 05:40:32 PM
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Bitcoins are NOT untraceable, and are anonymous only if the addresses used to receive them cannot be linked to real people. If exchanges become regulated and will require ID from all users, it will be extremely easy to see (in the block chain and in correlation with the exchanges databases) who paid how much to whom and when. This is a performance that cash will never achieve!

The good part: thieves will be easier to catch.
The bad part: farewell, privacy!

Like most things in life, bitcoin has two sides  Grin
Vinnie
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June 21, 2011, 06:37:19 PM
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You're asking a lot of exchangers, to ignore the authorities. They rely on banks and easily identifiable servers to operate (TOR is too slow for an exchange, I'd wager.) When those men with guns you mentioned come knocking, what should we expect them to do? Raise a militia and go to war with the state?

And, as the previous person mentioned, bitcoin is not untraceable. Though with some effort you can make yourself reasonably anonymous.

Anonymous Cash-By-Mail Exchange: https://www.bitcoin2cash.com
muad_dib
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June 21, 2011, 07:25:09 PM
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When those men with guns you mentioned come knocking, what should we expect them to do? Raise a militia and go to war with the state?


Now I understand why every other currency is backed up by an army.
genjix
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June 22, 2011, 12:21:00 AM
 #5

Even if you are an anarchist (as myself but not the rest of our group- we're a diverse bunch), you should still be pushing for regulation of exchanges.

1) We're dealing with people's money. Do you realise that the banks hold people's funds? At any time if the government doesn't like us, they can make one phone call and pull the plug.

2) Governments will eventually take a look at Bitcoin. If there is a good precedent, they are far more likely to make a positive ruling on Bitcoin than ban it. An honest, long-running, regulation abiding exchange sets a good example and allows us to take part in policy making decision rather than 60 year old guys in suits.

3) Mainstream people like legal legitimate things. If you want Bitcoin adopted, we have to cater to them.

Right now Bitcoin can go the way of the poker sites, or into mainstream acceptance. The poker sites all went offshore and were playing a game of cat and mouse for a long time by setting up these short lives payment services to get money on their sites.

Eventually the US DOJ got pissed and shut them all down, seizing their domain names. This already tarnished industry now had all their secrets come out. The poker world is dominated by 4 big companies controlling > 90% of the industry. PokerStars was OK (the only trustworthy site with a 60% market share). Full Tilt Poker was offering 999% rakeback to their friends (you could lose and still earn money through these loyalty points- normal amount is 25%). Cereus network (owns AP/UB) only has $5 mil of the $54 mil of the player's funds. All the sites were apparently engaging in some way in money laundering, although I'm not sure how verifiable that rumour is.

Is it your goal that Bitcoin become the sole preserve of money launderers and drug dealers, forever shunned from mainstream acceptance? Bitcoin has an immense power to positively transform the world and perform an amazing social good. If Bitcoin is made illegal, then all that good would disappear and only the shady things will continue... perhaps even proliferate.

Also, we pay the cost for abiding by regulation, not you. Why would you be against something which ensures we're an honest operation? Something like mtgox would never have happened if they were properly abiding to regulations. People have lost a ton of money. Many laws suck hard. But why would you be against something that at least protects the consumer. Especially if we abide by it willingly.

This is all about protecting Bitcoin. Why else are we pulling 14 hour days for months working around the clock... We interface with the financial system, and we want to play on their turf. They set the rules.

We're the only exchange AFAIK that has opensourced our code, and contributes back software we write to the community. We don't only develop exchanges, but write other software too which is released for free. We use project funds to hire more community members to keep doing cool Bitcoin projects. I'm sorry that everything isn't perfect, but in the real world you have to make strategic compromises to allow things to move forwards for the benefit of all.
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June 22, 2011, 01:40:18 AM
 #6

The Mt. Gox guys said on the bitcoin tv interview, in response to the FBI rumor, that they will be cooperating with the Japanese government requests but first will consult lawyers to make sure that they are required to give whatever information that is being requested.

They said that, if other country agencies contact them for user info, that agency will need to get the Japanese government to make the request.

If you want to believe Mt. Gox, well then that policy about as good privacy as you're going to get. But they should have just said, simply, "we don't give user information unless compelled by a judge." I hope that's what they meant, because it's one thing to turn over information if it's requested casually, and another to only do so if the agency involved has a subpoena AND you've challenged it if it's overly broad.

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cryptoanarchist
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June 22, 2011, 02:51:17 AM
 #7

1) We're dealing with people's money. Do you realise that the banks hold people's funds? At any time if the government doesn't like us, they can make one phone call and pull the plug.

2) Governments will eventually take a look at Bitcoin. If there is a good precedent, they are far more likely to make a positive ruling on Bitcoin than ban it. An honest, long-running, regulation abiding exchange sets a good example and allows us to take part in policy making decision rather than 60 year old guys in suits.

3) Mainstream people like legal legitimate things. If you want Bitcoin adopted, we have to cater to them.

........

Is it your goal that Bitcoin become the sole preserve of money launderers and drug dealers, forever shunned from mainstream acceptance? Bitcoin has an immense power to positively transform the world and perform an amazing social good. If Bitcoin is made illegal, then all that good would disappear and only the shady things will continue... perhaps even proliferate.

Also, we pay the cost for abiding by regulation, not you. Why would you be against something which ensures we're an honest operation? Something like mtgox would never have happened if they were properly abiding to regulations. People have lost a ton of money. Many laws suck hard. But why would you be against something that at least protects the consumer. Especially if we abide by it willingly.

This is all about protecting Bitcoin. Why else are we pulling 14 hour days for months working around the clock... We interface with the financial system, and we want to play on their turf. They set the rules.

We're the only exchange AFAIK that has opensourced our code, and contributes back software we write to the community. We don't only develop exchanges, but write other software too which is released for free. We use project funds to hire more community members to keep doing cool Bitcoin projects. I'm sorry that everything isn't perfect, but in the real world you have to make strategic compromises to allow things to move forwards for the benefit of all.

1) No, the government can't just 'pull the plug'. If it could it would have done so already. Even if they shut down every server, which they can't because they're spread across the globe), people would buy bitcoins locally for cash or use Tor and buy them off sites like Silk Road.

2)Horrible argument. Libertarians like Wayne Root have used this "let's behave to get a seat at the table' argument and its pure BS. I'm a little insulted you even trotted it out. I have no desire to sit at their table and help with 'policy' for bitcoin, even if I was galactically stupid enough to believe they would EVER do such a thing. What you said is a giant statist lie to fool the peasants into thinking they have a say - we don't and won't till we have our own currency - not one regulated by the government.

3) Mainstream people are irrelevant. Mainstream people are generally the parasites I personally am trying to detach from. The last thing I want to do is cater to parasites. Most of the mainstream isn't even aware of the problems in the monetary system, so why are you worried about what they think? If bitcoin succeeds and creates a truly free market economy, they will NO CHOICE but to join in or be beggars...or die off.

Your argument for mainstream acceptance is one of someone who has little confidence in principle, and more in winning a popularity contest. As currencies go, bitcoin wasn't designed for the purpose of being regulated. Nor was it designed to appeal to mainstream sheeple. It was designed to be a pure free market currency that is immune to such nonsense, and only sensitive to the real invisible hand determined by the consumers' demand.

You want to destroy its main benefit, and roll back the clock to the same monetary problems we already have, and you will fail.
hugolp
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June 22, 2011, 04:25:50 AM
 #8

Bitcoins are NOT untraceable, and are anonymous only if the addresses used to receive them cannot be linked to real people. If exchanges become regulated and will require ID from all users, it will be extremely easy to see (in the block chain and in correlation with the exchanges databases) who paid how much to whom and when. This is a performance that cash will never achieve!

The good part: thieves will be easier to catch.
The bad part: farewell, privacy!

Like most things in life, bitcoin has two sides  Grin

1. You still have the OTC market.

2. There are ways to hide your bitcoin trail.
marcus_of_augustus
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June 23, 2011, 09:41:04 AM
 #9

Bitcoins are NOT untraceable, and are anonymous only if the addresses used to receive them cannot be linked to real people. If exchanges become regulated and will require ID from all users, it will be extremely easy to see (in the block chain and in correlation with the exchanges databases) who paid how much to whom and when. This is a performance that cash will never achieve!

The good part: thieves will be easier to catch.
The bad part: farewell, privacy!

Like most things in life, bitcoin has two sides  Grin

Chaumian blinding ....

Goodbye big brother, hello privacy.

Bitcoin has many facets, not like a coin but like a diamond ....  ; Wink

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