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Author Topic: Libertarians/Anarchists Answer Me This  (Read 5304 times)
em3rgentOrdr
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December 08, 2010, 10:48:44 PM
 #41

However, you could easily solve this problem by villagers owning the bridge outright.

Yes! The thing many people fail to realize when it comes to anarchy, is that the freedom to design your community as you see fit will end up with thousands of different blends of local governance (or no governance,) private property, common property, public property, vice laws, no vice laws, etc. etc., all existing side by side. Anarcho-capitalism doesn't have all the answers, neither does social anarchism.

I see many advantages to common ownership (and even public ownership) of certain infrastructure and resources at a hyper-local level. Ancaps may see things differently, and design their communities accordingly.

Vinnie is spot on here.

"We will not find a solution to political problems in cryptography, but we can win a major battle in the arms race and gain a new territory of freedom for several years.

Governments are good at cutting off the heads of a centrally controlled networks, but pure P2P networks are holding their own."
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nanaimogold
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December 08, 2010, 11:50:41 PM
 #42

However, you could easily solve this problem by villagers owning the bridge outright.

Yes! The thing many people fail to realize when it comes to anarchy, is that the freedom to design your community as you see fit will end up with thousands of different blends of local governance (or no governance,) private property, common property, public property, vice laws, no vice laws, etc. etc., all existing side by side. Anarcho-capitalism doesn't have all the answers, neither does social anarchism.

I see many advantages to common ownership (and even public ownership) of certain infrastructure and resources at a hyper-local level. Ancaps may see things differently, and design their communities accordingly.

Oh sure. Anarchy is short-sighted and immature.

Consider "Area F" of Nanaimo has no building code or official community plan. They have an asphalt plant in a residential area and a sawmill next door to the elementary school.

I'm thinking of starting a dogfish rendering plant in the mobile home park. Maybe I'll buy the bridge over to that part of town and demand tribute in song from all who want to cross.

Go Anarchists Go! And go more - just keep going - past the sewage treatment plant in the backyard of the seafood restaurant - go go go!

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December 09, 2010, 12:08:25 AM
 #43

Consider "Area F" of Nanaimo has no building code or official community plan. They have an asphalt plant in a residential area and a sawmill next door to the elementary school.

I'm thinking of starting a dogfish rendering plant in the mobile home park. Maybe I'll buy the bridge over to that part of town and demand tribute in song from all who want to cross.
What properties of anarchism allow for such a scenario?

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December 09, 2010, 12:14:34 AM
 #44



Oh sure. Anarchy is short-sighted and immature.

Consider "Area F" of Nanaimo has no building code or official community plan. They have an asphalt plant in a residential area and a sawmill next door to the elementary school.

I'm thinking of starting a dogfish rendering plant in the mobile home park. Maybe I'll buy the bridge over to that part of town and demand tribute in song from all who want to cross.

Go Anarchists Go! And go more - just keep going - past the sewage treatment plant in the backyard of the seafood restaurant - go go go!

I doubt anyone will want to live in that community.

My mother's tribe has no building codes or official community plan yet maintain a peaceful, quiet coexistence with one another via a strong culture of social norms and family ties. This community is called Taos Pueblo, and is about 1500 years old.

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nanaimogold
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December 09, 2010, 12:25:09 AM
 #45



Oh sure. Anarchy is short-sighted and immature.

Consider "Area F" of Nanaimo has no building code or official community plan. They have an asphalt plant in a residential area and a sawmill next door to the elementary school.

I'm thinking of starting a dogfish rendering plant in the mobile home park. Maybe I'll buy the bridge over to that part of town and demand tribute in song from all who want to cross.

Go Anarchists Go! And go more - just keep going - past the sewage treatment plant in the backyard of the seafood restaurant - go go go!

I doubt anyone will want to live in that community.

Oh, they do. It's highly coveted land, and many free thinkers live there, but their anarchistic ways are causing problems now.

>My mother's tribe has no building codes or official community plan yet maintain a peaceful, quiet coexistence with one another via a strong culture of social norms and family ties. This community is called Taos Pueblo, and is about 1500 years old.

Oh PUHLEEZE! Stone aged savages existing on the handouts provided by another race. Find something else to be proud of.

That's about the only thing I admire about anarchy - it does not interfere with Darwinism or run counter to the principle of survival of the fittest like the current "pay monkeys to breed" program currently dragging humanity down to the lowest common denominator.

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December 09, 2010, 04:48:24 AM
 #46


Oh PUHLEEZE! Stone aged savages existing on the handouts provided by another race. Find something else to be proud of.


Oh please indeed. You shouldn't talk smack about things you know nothing about.

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December 09, 2010, 04:55:12 AM
 #47

Nanaimogold seem to have gone irrational.

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December 09, 2010, 05:02:35 AM
 #48

Nanaimo, under what circumstances is it okay for people to initiate aggression against me in your opinion?

Maybe we use 'anarchy' differently, but if your answer is never then that is just semantics. 

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December 09, 2010, 05:09:01 AM
 #49


Oh PUHLEEZE! Stone aged savages existing on the handouts provided by another race. Find something else to be proud of.


Oh please indeed. You shouldn't talk smack about things you know nothing about.

You bring this racist shit into almost every post you make.

> My mother's tribe has no building codes or official community plan yet maintain a peaceful, quiet coexistence with one another via a strong culture of social norms and family ties. This community is called Taos Pueblo, and is about 1500 years old.

No building code or community plan? Try to build something there. You will be told that you don't have permission and your vision is not part of the plan.

No code or plan. The place is basically a human zoo exhibit governed by the federal government. But in your twisted mind there is some racial superiority at play.


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December 09, 2010, 05:17:28 AM
 #50

Nanaimo, under what circumstances is it okay for people to initiate aggression against me in your opinion?

Maybe we use 'anarchy' differently, but if your answer is never then that is just semantics. 

Assault or property crime is an offense as described by the code of law that distinguishes civilization from savagery.

Anarchy is life without rules and is impossible for social creatures.

Where I live you can't dig a post hole without finding a murder victim. Life under anarchy is short and brutish to be sure.

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December 09, 2010, 05:27:27 AM
 #51

Anarchy is life without rules and is impossible for social creatures.

Anarchy is no ruler, not no law.

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December 09, 2010, 05:30:26 AM
 #52

You bring this racist shit into almost every post you make.

I must be bothering you. Sorry about that. What I speak of has less to do with race and more to do with cultural context. As far as building a community, cultural context has everything to do with anarchy. As far as I am aware it is in these off topic discussion on anarchy, etc. that I bring my experiences up. They are examples of different ways people can organize themselves, and they are proven to work.

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> My mother's tribe has no building codes or official community plan yet maintain a peaceful, quiet coexistence with one another via a strong culture of social norms and family ties. This community is called Taos Pueblo, and is about 1500 years old.

No building code or community plan? Try to build something there. You will be told that you don't have permission and your vision is not part of the plan.

I have built something there. It's rather nice to have the freedom to build whatever kind of home you want, with whatever materials you want, without having to ask anyone's permission. Outside of that it is very socially restrictive to live there; there are some areas of life where there is complete freedom, and in others there is very little. The important aspect of this particular example is that residents here have the option of moving 2 miles down the road and into a typical American community if they want to. I'd like to multiply the options of communities available to everyone, so that if your local clan elders, mayor, city council, *whatever* starts making your life hell you can just pack up and leave them to rot in their little fiefdom while you find a better place to live.

Quote
No code or plan. The place is basically a human zoo exhibit governed by the federal government. But in your twisted mind there is some racial superiority at play.

Roll Eyes

We have rebelled twice against those who claim to govern us, once against the Spanish (successful) and once against the US (unsuccessful.) There are indeed severe problems in Indian Country. Dependence on social services is one of them. Our traditional system of governance and economy was smashed and replaced with dependence. I'm not too happy about that and am working to remind my respective tribes that these handouts are poison, fed to us by our "zoo" keepers to keep us inept and out of the way. In short, I'm working to rebuild truly independent tribal nations. Economic independence is high on my list of priorities. You should be happy about that.

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December 09, 2010, 05:33:41 AM
 #53

Economic independence is high on my list of priorities. You should be happy about that.

interdependent

Vinnie
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December 09, 2010, 05:39:34 AM
 #54

Assault or property crime is an offense as described by the code of law that distinguishes civilization from savagery.

Anarchy is life without rules and is impossible for social creatures.

Where I live you can't dig a post hole without finding a murder victim. Life under anarchy is short and brutish to be sure.

It appears we are speaking of very different definitions of anarchy. No serious anarchist I know advocates for Hobbes' state of nature. Many younger leftist anarchists are misguided into thinking that they need to smash all authority, property, rules, laws, etc. These are really just bleeding heart progressive liberals who care more about race and gender issues (and being totalitarian about it) rather than allowing people to live and organize themselves as they see fit.

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December 09, 2010, 05:40:05 AM
 #55

Icelandic Commonwealth (930–1262)

Classical ("Thing system") Iceland (also called the Icelandic Commonwealth or the Icelandic Free State) was an example of society where police and justice were guaranteed through a free market.
This Icelandic "Thing system" survived for several centuries. It was eventually destroyed by the Christian church, which bought up all the godards (defense agencies) creating a state monopoly.

PWNED BY CHURCH

Libertatia (1670s–1690s)

Libertatia was a legendary free colony forged by pirates and the pirate Captain Misson, although some historians have expressed doubts over its existence outside of literature. Historian and activist Marcus Rediker describes the pirates as follows:

These pirates who settled in Libertalia would be "vigilant Guardians of the People's Rights and Liberties"; they would stand as "Barriers against the Rich and Powerful" of their day. By waging war on behalf of "the Oppressed" against the "Oppressors," they would see that "Justice was equally distributed."[11]

The pirates were against the various forms of authoritarian social constructs of their day, monarchies, slavery, and capital. The pirates practiced forms of direct democracy, where the people as a whole held the authority to make laws and rules, and used systems of councils with delegates, who were supposed to think of themselves as "comerads" of the general population, and not rulers. The pirates created a new language for their colony and operated a socialist economy.

MIGHT HAVE HAPPENED

Free Territory (Ukraine) (1918-1921)
In March 1918, Russia (led by the Bolsheviks), the Ukrainian People's Republic, and the Central Powers, signed the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk to pull Russia out of World War I. The Treaty resulted in the occupation of the territory of the weak Ukrainian state by the German and Austro-Hungarian empires. This was done without consulting Ukrainian population. Various insurgence groups arose, including the Revolutionary Insurrectionary Army of Ukraine, led by the anarcho-communist Nestor Makhno. They won popular support due to their attacks on the Austro-Hungarian puppet-leader Hetman Skoropadsky and the Nationalist Petliurists.
Although the movement was forced to spend great energy and resources to fight off the invaders, they still managed to carry out a social revolution according to the principles of anarchism.
The Makhnovist movement was quite a threat to the Bolsheviks. The Bolsheviks clung to the idea that the “masses” were unable to carry out a social revolution on their own and perform self-management. This was proven wrong by the Makhnovist movement, prompting Bolshevik attacks. Even in the military area it seemed that the anarchist answer was superior. The Makhnovists defeated on several occasions armies up to 30 times their size, and had great morale.

LATER PWNED BY OUTSIDE FORCE

Autonomous Shinmin region (1929–1932)

The apex of Korean anarchism came in late 1929 outside the actual borders of the country, in Manchuria. Over two million Korean immigrants lived in Manchuria at the time when the Korean Anarchist Communist Federation (KACF) declared the Shinmin province autonomous and under the administration of the Korean People’s Association. The decentralized, federative structure the association adopted consisted of village councils, district councils and area councils, all of which operated in a cooperative manner to deal with agriculture, education, finance and other vital issues. An Army to fight for the defense of Shinmin was also set up and spearheaded by the prominent Korean Anarchist Kim Jwa-jin which had great successes against the Imperial Japanese Army and the Bolshevik Red Army, using hit-and-run guerrilla tactics. KACF sections in China, Korea, Japan and elsewhere devoted all their energies towards the success of the Shinmin Rebellion, most of them actually relocating there. Dealing simultaneously with the Soviet Union's attempts to overthrow the Shinmin autonomous region and Japan’s imperialist attempts to claim the region for itself, the Korean anarchists had been crushed by 1932

LATER PWNED BY OUTSIDE FORCE

Spanish Revolution (1936–1938)
Much of Spain's economy was put under direct worker control; in anarchist strongholds like Catalonia, the figure was as high as 75%, but lower in areas with heavy Socialist influence. Factories were run through worker committees, agrarian areas became collectivized and run as libertarian communes. Even places like hotels, barber shops, and restaurants were collectivized and managed by their workers.
The communes were run according to the basic principle of "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need", without any Marxist dogma attached. In some places, money was entirely eliminated. Despite the critics clamoring for maximum efficiency, anarchic communes often produced more than before the collectivization. The newly liberated zones worked on entirely egalitarian principles; decisions were made through councils of ordinary citizens without any sort of bureaucracy.

PWNED BY OUTSIDE MILITARY

Hungarian Revolution (1956)
The Hungarian Revolution of 1956 can be seen as an excellent example of a functioning anarchy. From October 22, 1956, Hungarian workers refused to obey their managers or their government, in the face of authoritarian soviet rule. Claiming sovereignty for their own workers' councils they organized economic, military and social production on an increasing scale. An example of the anarchic social organization was that vast sums of money were freely donated for injured revolutionary fighters, and that this money was left unattended in the street for days at a time. Peasants supplied the workers with food on a voluntary basis. Between October 22 and December 14 Hungary's economy and society was governed by the democratic opinion of workers councils and voluntary associations.

PWNED BY SOVIETS

Freetown Christiania (1971–present)

Christiania was founded in 1971, when a group of hippie squatters occupied an abandoned military barracks in Copenhagen, Denmark. One of the more influential people involved was Jacob Ludvigsen, who published an anarchist newspaper which widely proclaimed the establishment of the free town. The people of Christiania developed their own set of rules—independent of the Danish government—which include the prohibition of cars, stealing, guns, bulletproof vests and hard drugs. Cameras are not allowed, and locals will wave their hands and shout "No photo!" if they see a picture being taken. Famous for its main drag, known as "Pusher Street" as hash was sold openly from permanent stands until 2004. Such commerce is controversial, but cannot be removed without complete community consensus. For years the legal status of the region was in limbo, as the Danish government attempted, without success, to remove the squatters.

STILL UP MAY NOT BE PERFECT

Zapatista Autonomous Municipalities (1994-present)
The indigenous peoples of Southern Mexico rebelled in 1994, partially in response to the signing of the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA), reclaiming their lands in what is called "a war against oblivion".
Laws in the Zapatista Autonomous Municipalities are not passed by "leaders", as such, but by "Good Government Councils" and by the will of the people (representatives in these councils are truly representative of their communities, rather than professional politicians). This is very similar to the delegate structure that many anarchists engage in with spokescouncils, or with unions. In many communities, general assemblies gather during the week to decide on various things facing the community. The assemblies are open to all, with no formal hierarchy. The decisions made by the communities are passed to elected delegates whose only job is to give the decided upon information to a council of delegates.[clarification needed] Like anarcho-syndicalist organizations, the delegates are recallable, and are also rotated. This way, massive numbers of people are able to decide things with no formal hierarchy, and without people speaking for them.

SOME AREAS TAKEN BACK BY MILITARY STILL UP

INTERNET EXAMPLES
Aspects of the Free Software community, like the Free Software movement, the GNU Project and its copyleft principle are a type of a gift economy for information and software; a gift economy is the preferred economic system of anarcho-communists.[67] Programmers make the source code of their programs available for anyone to copy, modify and improve. Individual programmers gain prestige and respect, and the community benefits from better software. Markus Giesler, in his ethnography Consumer Gift Systems, explored music downloading as a system of social solidarity based on gift transactions.[68][69] Some organizations such as online commons (such as the Wikimedia Commons), wikis and Indymedia are held up as examples of functioning anarcho-communistic organizations.

DONT REALLY COUNT BUT...

Stuff in bold is how it got crushed, as you can see non fell apart from the inside due to murder or violence, I don't count Somalia as a anarchy due to it being run by unofficial governments like the crime gangs financed by the USgov, there where a short period at the beginning where it improved the region compared to the rest of South Africa.

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December 09, 2010, 05:41:16 AM
 #56

interdependent

I'm referring to getting off of the teet of federal "assistance." So I suppose what I mean is being self sufficient.

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December 09, 2010, 05:45:47 AM
 #57


I'm referring to getting off of the teet of federal "assistance." So I suppose what I mean is being self sufficient.

Self sufficient mean making your own food, house, etc. Interdependent mean that you are relying on trade partners, and trade partners relying on you.

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December 09, 2010, 05:49:59 AM
 #58

Interdependent mean that you are relying on trade partners, and trade partners relying on you.

This. Self sufficient in that we pay our own way and certainly engage in trade to do it.

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December 09, 2010, 06:20:12 AM
 #59

I really hate the "show me where it worked before" thing.

All I'm suggesting is that the world will be better if people don't initiate violence on each other. I could give a damn whether this has happened on a large scale in history. That said, history is interesting.

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December 09, 2010, 06:41:40 AM
 #60

I really hate the "show me where it worked before" thing.

All I'm suggesting is that the world will be better if people don't initiate violence on each other. I could give a damn whether this has happened on a large scale in history. That said, history is interesting.

+1

When chattel slavery still existed, opponents of abolitionists would cry, "Oh show me where freeing slaves worked before."  or "How are the slaves going to feed themselves???"

"We will not find a solution to political problems in cryptography, but we can win a major battle in the arms race and gain a new territory of freedom for several years.

Governments are good at cutting off the heads of a centrally controlled networks, but pure P2P networks are holding their own."
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