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Author Topic: Should money have intrisic value ?  (Read 9720 times)
MoonShadow
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January 12, 2011, 03:45:43 PM
 #61

Bitcoin does not require intrinsic value to function well as a medium of exchange, but gold does not support your statement.  Gold has quite a bit of intrinsic value, which is one reason that it has been such a sound money for over 5000 years.

Don't get me wrong I really like gold and silver and am in both, but honestly, if denied access to a functioning marketplace what do I use them for?


Both silver & gold have significant industrial uses, as well as potential uses that are cost prohibitive due to the high monetary value.  Off the top of my head, in the absence of a functioning market for silver or gold (unlikely, even in a war zone, Nazi sub captains carried a bar of gold for this reason) then gold makes a better bullet than lead and silver has antibiotic properties that are significant enough to be critical in dire situations without proper modern medical facilities. 

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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MoonShadow
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January 12, 2011, 03:48:15 PM
 #62

If you've agreed that anything has intrinsic value then you've agreed on a fallacy.
Just understand the terms you're using, they have a meaning.
If value is on the beholder only - and it is - it can't be an inseparable attribute of valued things.

Now this is a semantic argument.  You are simply debating the common definition of the term "intrinsic" versus it's economic definition.  I for one, do not misunderstand that even an intrinsic value is a result of how various humans desire the object.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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January 12, 2011, 10:21:46 PM
 #63

Both silver & gold have significant industrial uses, as well as potential uses that are cost prohibitive due to the high monetary value.  Off the top of my head, in the absence of a functioning market for silver or gold (unlikely, even in a war zone, Nazi sub captains carried a bar of gold for this reason) then gold makes a better bullet than lead and silver has antibiotic properties that are significant enough to be critical in dire situations without proper modern medical facilities. 

Conclusion remains the same, money does not need to have alternative uses to be useful or valuable. If it properly fulfills the requirements of sound money it will be valuable.

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MoonShadow
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January 12, 2011, 10:27:42 PM
 #64

Both silver & gold have significant industrial uses, as well as potential uses that are cost prohibitive due to the high monetary value.  Off the top of my head, in the absence of a functioning market for silver or gold (unlikely, even in a war zone, Nazi sub captains carried a bar of gold for this reason) then gold makes a better bullet than lead and silver has antibiotic properties that are significant enough to be critical in dire situations without proper modern medical facilities. 

Conclusion remains the same, money does not need to have alternative uses to be useful or valuable. If it properly fulfills the requirements of sound money it will be valuable.

Currency doesn not need to have an alternative use to be useful or valuable.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
caveden
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January 13, 2011, 08:32:03 AM
 #65

If you've agreed that anything has intrinsic value then you've agreed on a fallacy.
Just understand the terms you're using, they have a meaning.
If value is on the beholder only - and it is - it can't be an inseparable attribute of valued things.

Now this is a semantic argument.  You are simply debating the common definition of the term "intrinsic" versus it's economic definition.  I for one, do not misunderstand that even an intrinsic value is a result of how various humans desire the object.

There not two different definitions (economic vs common). I've posted before the dictionary entry. An intrinsic attribute of something is inseparable from the thing itself. Value just can't be intrinsic. Ever.

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caveden
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January 13, 2011, 08:32:13 AM
 #66

I don't see what misunderstandings you are talking about.  Some people believe in objective theory of value, if that's what you mean. 

Yes, that's what I mean. And there are a lot of people who still believe in that.
If we here, that do understand the difference, keep using terms that only have meaning when this false theory is true (intrinsic value) we'd be just fueling even more this misunderstanding.

That's somehow what Gary North says in his text: http://www.thefreemanonline.org/featured/the-fallacy-of-quotintrinsic-valuequot/

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grondilu
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January 13, 2011, 08:40:56 AM
 #67

Yes, that's what I mean. And there are a lot of people who still believe in that.
If we here, that do understand the difference, keep using terms that only have meaning when this false theory is true (intrinsic value) we'd be just fueling even more this misunderstanding.

That's somehow what Gary North says in his text: http://www.thefreemanonline.org/featured/the-fallacy-of-quotintrinsic-valuequot/

Why doesn't he just title his article "the fallacy of objective value" ??
grondilu
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January 13, 2011, 08:50:37 AM
 #68

An intrinsic attribute of something is inseparable from the thing itself. Value just can't be intrinsic. Ever.

Yes it can.  I can enjoy a tasty ice-cream.  It has some value for me.  This value is due to chemical and nutritic properties of the ice-cream, which are intrinsic to the ice-cream.   It's a subjective intrinsic value.

Now I can desire cigarettes.  Not because I could smoke them .  I don't smoke.  But I can desire to own some, because I know that a lot people smoke and would do many things for cigarettes in dark times.  It's extrinsic value.

But if I was to reformulate my initial question in order to avoid this debate, I would ask :

"Should money have value other than trade value ?"
MoonShadow
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January 13, 2011, 02:19:28 PM
 #69


That's somehow what Gary North says in his text:

Appeal to Authority.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
MoonShadow
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January 13, 2011, 02:21:30 PM
 #70

If you've agreed that anything has intrinsic value then you've agreed on a fallacy.
Just understand the terms you're using, they have a meaning.
If value is on the beholder only - and it is - it can't be an inseparable attribute of valued things.

Now this is a semantic argument.  You are simply debating the common definition of the term "intrinsic" versus it's economic definition.  I for one, do not misunderstand that even an intrinsic value is a result of how various humans desire the object.

There not two different definitions (economic vs common). I've posted before the dictionary entry. An intrinsic attribute of something is inseparable from the thing itself. Value just can't be intrinsic. Ever.

Okay, I can debate by these rules.

Yes, There is an established economic meaning of "intrinsic"; infinity!

Nah, nah, nah!

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
caveden
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January 13, 2011, 05:12:41 PM
 #71

An intrinsic attribute of something is inseparable from the thing itself. Value just can't be intrinsic. Ever.

Yes it can.  I can enjoy a tasty ice-cream.  It has some value for me. 

But if the value exists for you, it can't be intrinsic to the ice cream. The value is in you, in your opinions, in your mind. If you're gone, such value is gone, although all properties really inherent to the ice cream remain.

"Should money have value other than trade value ?"

"Should money have utility other than trade utility ?"

There, better. Smiley
And I bet that if people were used to these terms, they wouldn't spend much time thinking to answer "No, something doesn't need to be useful for A in order to be useful for B, being A and B completely unrelated"
But even libertarians quite often don't understand that, and I bet that the fact that so many people constantly throw phrases like "Real money must have intrinsic value!" (sic) is related to the problem.

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January 13, 2011, 05:27:26 PM
 #72

Value is very much like morality.

Some people think both are intrinsic, and others believe they are subjective.

Just as caveden was saying that there is no intrinsic value, one could argue there is no objective morality.

However if one were to say: "Raping is evil" I would say this is a widely accepted morality amongst human beings which would be incredibly tempting for us to make the claim that "Raping IS evil" rather than "I THINK/BELIEVE raping is evil". Technically it is still subjective, but most humans suscribe to this.

Similarly to gold, at the moment and for the longest period of human history, gold has been perceived as a store of value and suitable means of exchange, everybody wants gold. It doesn't have INTRINSIC value, however since it is widely used and accepted by everybody, it might as well be, NOT SAYING THAT IT IS! A BitCoin appears to be a good means of exchange so far, but the majority of people haven't adopted that yet. Maybe in the future when everybody seeks BitCoins rather than gold opinions will change, I feel gold has had too much of a headstart, and so will always retain its value unless something revolutionary happens, such as alchemy or finding a planet made entirely of gold.

Intrinsic things are the utilities, what it can be used for. And this is on par with the claim that "a brain is intrinsic to a live human being". Every human being has one, but the value we have for it... well... I could say it differs from person to person.

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grondilu
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January 13, 2011, 05:32:01 PM
 #73

But if the value exists for you, it can't be intrinsic to the ice cream. The value is in you, in your opinions, in your mind. If you're gone, such value is gone, although all properties really inherent to the ice cream remain.

Oh, please, you can't get rid of the observer here, otherwise it doesn't make any sense.  The concept of value doesn't mean anything if there is not at least one human being involved.  Same for colors, sounds, and so on.  If you want to think things like this then it's a bit like the old lame debate about a tree falling in a forest where there's noone to hear it.   I doubt anybody has ever tried to suggest a notion of value as intrinsic as the atoms the ice-cream is made of.  I'm pretty sure people mean intrinsic value as opposed to trade value.

If you deny the existence of at least one observer, then the world itself doesn't exist.
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