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Author Topic: To Magical Tux  (Read 9665 times)
ottodv
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June 22, 2011, 09:39:35 PM
 #61

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I would agree if that was the case, I see it right for them to report unusual activity or be regulated.
However I don't see why the FBI or why the DEA, they were reacting hysterically to the reactions of two tech-savvy US senators.
They should try to apply to financial regulators, lobbying with politics, not going straight to the police offering help as if some sort of vigilante/snitch recruitment was going on.

I can't quite make the connections you are making.
Let me put it another way, I may not like everything the police does, but when I am a victim of a crime, I'll still report it to the police.

Also: it's not snitching to report a crime you are a victim off.
If the FBI can get the missing funds returned to MtGox and/or catch the cracker that would be a good thing, regardless of what anyone thinks of the FBI.
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BCEmporium
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June 22, 2011, 09:48:45 PM
 #62

Let me put this in the right perspective then;

a) The police is NOT the community where you can rollback a whole day of transactions and have this one agreeing and the other against, they will just flash you a warrant and force you to do what it says.

b) Financial operations are regulated by financial experts, and when you need to report something fishy you also need a lawyer to protect you from lawsuits from the angry customer you'll get afterwards.

c) It's with the existing laws you need to abide, so you need lawyers and financial experts, making friends with the police will do you no good, as if you're outlawed they will pick you anyway... it's their job.

This has nothing to do with being for or against the police, but MtGox/Britcoin action was pretty much childish and most likely they made no consulting with any lawyer of financial area prior to carry on with it.

EDIT: Now I notice you've no idea of what I'm talking about. This isn't about they complaining to the police about the heist they were victims. I'm talking about this: http://in.reuters.com/article/2011/06/15/financial-bitcoin-idINN1510930920110615
ottodv
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June 22, 2011, 10:16:11 PM
 #63

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EDIT: Now I notice you've no idea of what I'm talking about. This isn't about they complaining to the police about the heist they were victims.

This thread is about supporting MtGox in their efforts to recover from the malicious trade.
Even with the other issue you raise, wtf do you want MtGox to do? To say that they won't cooperate with authorities? That's a sure way to get shut down.

Besides it strikes me that the whole point of that statement was to counter the ridiculous and baseless claims made by those two senators that Bitcoins are merely a money laundering tool.
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June 22, 2011, 10:27:15 PM
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Even with the other issue you raise, wtf do you want MtGox to do? To say that they won't cooperate with authorities?

If asked, there were no problems. Take the initiative himself was the foolish part, not exactly cooperate or not. Different issues.
And this thread isn't about supporting M'Tux, it's about discussing it.
ottodv
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June 22, 2011, 11:00:41 PM
 #65

Personally I think a proactive approach to countering claims made by those two senators is a good thing. I am glad someone did it.

My point was that this thread was about the malicious trade and not about Tux's letter to the DEA.
But I see you like to twist words and sentences out of their original context, good luck with that, but I have got better things to do.
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June 23, 2011, 01:30:22 AM
 #66


In all reality the japanese authorities have their hands full at fukushima and the meltdown in tokyo financial markets to the tune of trillions ... i think magic the gathering on-line exchange is pretty low on their todo list. icbw.

TraderTimm
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June 23, 2011, 02:42:32 AM
 #67

Dang, another Mt.Gox thread. I think I heard a miners video card explode down the hall.

No wonder you guys make so many Smiley

fortitudinem multis - catenum regit omnia
silverman
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June 23, 2011, 04:02:33 AM
 #68

Personally I think a proactive approach to countering claims made by those two senators is a good thing. I am glad someone did it.

My point was that this thread was about the malicious trade and not about Tux's letter to the DEA.
But I see you like to twist words and sentences out of their original context, good luck with that, but I have got better things to do.

What letter? The Goxmeister is bringing in the DEA now?!!

This guy is a loose cannon. First he gives away the customer database and passwords, and now he's bringing in the DEA???

Whisky tango foxtrot. I want to see that letter!

tavi
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June 23, 2011, 04:57:58 AM
 #69

Personally I think a proactive approach to countering claims made by those two senators is a good thing. I am glad someone did it.

My point was that this thread was about the malicious trade and not about Tux's letter to the DEA.
But I see you like to twist words and sentences out of their original context, good luck with that, but I have got better things to do.

What letter? The Goxmeister is bringing in the DEA now?!!

This guy is a loose cannon. First he gives away the customer database and passwords, and now he's bringing in the DEA???

Whisky tango foxtrot. I want to see that letter!



Here you go bro: http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=17693.0;all

I'm just a poor boy, from a poor family:
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silverman
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June 23, 2011, 06:42:46 AM
 #70

Personally I think a proactive approach to countering claims made by those two senators is a good thing. I am glad someone did it.

My point was that this thread was about the malicious trade and not about Tux's letter to the DEA.
But I see you like to twist words and sentences out of their original context, good luck with that, but I have got better things to do.

What letter? The Goxmeister is bringing in the DEA now?!!

This guy is a loose cannon. First he gives away the customer database and passwords, and now he's bringing in the DEA???

Whisky tango foxtrot. I want to see that letter!



Here you go bro: http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=17693.0;all

Thanks for the info, tavi. I've been looking for this letter since our enchanted Tux announced he was going to the "authorities". First this creep leaked our identities, then he called in the DEA.

From Wikipedia:

Judas Goat: A Judas goat is a trained goat used at a slaughterhouse and in general animal herding. The Judas goat is trained to associate with sheep or cattle, leading them to a specific destination. In stockyards, a Judas goat will lead sheep to slaughter, while its own life is spared. Judas goats are also used to lead other animals to specific pens and on to trucks.


The Bitcoin idea was excellent, but the people involved just couldn't handle the responsibility. Game, set, match. Party over.



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June 23, 2011, 08:28:28 AM
 #71

Could someone who thinks that Mt. Gox cooperating with authorities is bad please tell me this:

How is a centralized, incorporated exchange supposed to exist if it is to be expected to break laws? Businesses that act like they are immune to subpoenas and warrants don't last long and aren't good places to keep your money. Although located in Japan, they do substantial business in the US, and so could be compelled to cooperate. The US likely couldn't close them down, but they sure could make getting money into or out of Mt. Gox difficult. Besides, you can bet your ass that your bank in the US would gladly voluntarily hand over information on suspicious transactions, unrequested, to authorities and would also give records of non-suspicious transactions involving Dwolla or Mt. Gox if those were properly requested.

MagicalTux said this: "As a company handling Bitcoins, it is not our intention of doing anything illegal. We sent a letter to the Drug Enforcement Administration to address this issue."

They need to keep within applicable laws. You all know that. So, why did you send money to them to buy bitcoins in order to buy drugs if you knew that; 1) either they were planning on existing uncooperatively and illegally or; 2) they would be required to turn over your info if legally requested? The former, giving your money to an illegal enterprise, is just plain stupid. The latter is just ignorant.

Now, I don't buy the claim that cooperation with US agencies means voluntary or unchallenged submission of user information. That would be a hilariously bad move opening the company up to all kinds of liability. At worst, they might be required to alert authorities about suspicious transactions, just like any bank or exchange. But since this is bitcoin, it's a grey area on whether they would even need to do that. However, aside from hacked accounts and fraudulent money transfers, please tell me how, praytell, are they supposed to tell that you bought drugs and thus mark your Mt. Gox account as suspicious?

Even though bitcoins are easily trackable, in order to do this, Mt. Gox would need to be privy to information about specific Silk Road-associated bitcoin addresses. They aren't. If anyone is, it's federal agencies.

It logically follows then that Mt. Gox won't be giving any user info that the DEA couldn't already specifically request. The info that is requested properly, well, they don't have a choice but to comply with certain laws or they would not last long as business (or out of jail).

On the bitcoin show the other night, the Mt. Gox guys stated that cooperation meant that the FBI, DEA or whatever would need to make inquiries through the Japanese government. This is different from handing over user info willy nilly and unrequested by the DEA.

(Edit: Okay I just watched the video and found that part here. The dude even said "willy nilly" as well. If you don't want to watch, they said that they will run requests through their lawyers and comply if legally obligated to. That's pretty much the best possibly thing they could be expected to do.)

Now, the criminal matter of the hack and the FBI, that's a different matter and I don't think I know enough to be able to make an argument one way or another except to say that not reporting the crime would be a massive error and potentially would hurt them from being able to find the hacker, reclaim stolen funds, or have as strong a case in court. And that's not just regarding the improbable court case against the hacker, but in defending against conspiracy theorists with lawyers (e.g "If you rolled back trades because of this crime, why didn't you report it?")

I just wanted to add that, while it seems like I'm defending them, I really don't fucking want Mt. Gox to send any of my data to any government agency whatsoever, and they darn well should challenge every subpoena.

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marcus_of_augustus
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June 23, 2011, 08:44:36 AM
 #72

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Businesses that act like they are immune to subpoenas and warrants don't last long and aren't good places to keep your money.

JPMorgue Chase and Goldman Sachs would like politely disagree with you here .... seems like there is two sets of laws in effect here ... so now the FBI and SEC are going to crawl all over a money exchange? ... wtf, billions have been stolen right under their noses and they said ... "we were watching porn so we didn't see nuffin"

Archatos
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June 23, 2011, 10:42:09 AM
 #73

JPMorgue Chase and Goldman Sachs would like politely disagree with you here
They don't act like they are immune. They act like they have the money to settle any cases. And they do.
Horkabork
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June 23, 2011, 10:56:31 AM
 #74

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Businesses that act like they are immune to subpoenas and warrants don't last long and aren't good places to keep your money.

JPMorgue Chase and Goldman Sachs would like politely disagree with you here .... seems like there is two sets of laws in effect here ... so now the FBI and SEC are going to crawl all over a money exchange? ... wtf, billions have been stolen right under their noses and they said ... "we were watching porn so we didn't see nuffin"

Okay you've got me on that one. But then again, I wouldn't call JPMC or Goldman Sachs "good places to keep my money." Grin

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BCEmporium
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June 23, 2011, 11:12:24 AM
 #75

Could someone who thinks that Mt. Gox cooperating with authorities is bad please tell me this:
(...)

Nobody said that is a bad thing, take the initiative yourself to go write love letters to someone who doesn't call the shots and is basically just the muscle, is. If they want to do it, should had do it the right way, and the right way starts to get consulting by somebody with forex regulation expertize and contact who's in charge of making laws and regulate markets.
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June 23, 2011, 11:14:30 AM
 #76

JPMorgue Chase and Goldman Sachs would like politely disagree with you here
They don't act like they are immune. They act like they have the money to settle any cases. And they do.

what they have .... some might call it "money" ... others might disagree ... they are insolvent on many levels.

chetrasho
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June 23, 2011, 01:15:44 PM
 #77

Could someone who thinks that Mt. Gox cooperating with authorities is bad please tell me this:

How is a centralized, incorporated exchange supposed to exist if it is to be expected to break laws? Businesses that act like they are immune to subpoenas and warrants don't last long and aren't good places to keep your money. Although located in Japan, they do substantial business in the US, and so could be compelled to cooperate. The US likely couldn't close them down, but they sure could make getting money into or out of Mt. Gox difficult. Besides, you can bet your ass that your bank in the US would gladly voluntarily hand over information on suspicious transactions, unrequested, to authorities and would also give records of non-suspicious transactions involving Dwolla or Mt. Gox if those were properly requested.

MagicalTux said this: "As a company handling Bitcoins, it is not our intention of doing anything illegal. We sent a letter to the Drug Enforcement Administration to address this issue."

They need to keep within applicable laws. You all know that. So, why did you send money to them to buy bitcoins in order to buy drugs if you knew that; 1) either they were planning on existing uncooperatively and illegally or; 2) they would be required to turn over your info if legally requested? The former, giving your money to an illegal enterprise, is just plain stupid. The latter is just ignorant.

Now, I don't buy the claim that cooperation with US agencies means voluntary or unchallenged submission of user information. That would be a hilariously bad move opening the company up to all kinds of liability. At worst, they might be required to alert authorities about suspicious transactions, just like any bank or exchange. But since this is bitcoin, it's a grey area on whether they would even need to do that. However, aside from hacked accounts and fraudulent money transfers, please tell me how, praytell, are they supposed to tell that you bought drugs and thus mark your Mt. Gox account as suspicious?

Even though bitcoins are easily trackable, in order to do this, Mt. Gox would need to be privy to information about specific Silk Road-associated bitcoin addresses. They aren't. If anyone is, it's federal agencies.

It logically follows then that Mt. Gox won't be giving any user info that the DEA couldn't already specifically request. The info that is requested properly, well, they don't have a choice but to comply with certain laws or they would not last long as business (or out of jail).

On the bitcoin show the other night, the Mt. Gox guys stated that cooperation meant that the FBI, DEA or whatever would need to make inquiries through the Japanese government. This is different from handing over user info willy nilly and unrequested by the DEA.

(Edit: Okay I just watched the video and found that part here. The dude even said "willy nilly" as well. If you don't want to watch, they said that they will run requests through their lawyers and comply if legally obligated to. That's pretty much the best possibly thing they could be expected to do.)

Now, the criminal matter of the hack and the FBI, that's a different matter and I don't think I know enough to be able to make an argument one way or another except to say that not reporting the crime would be a massive error and potentially would hurt them from being able to find the hacker, reclaim stolen funds, or have as strong a case in court. And that's not just regarding the improbable court case against the hacker, but in defending against conspiracy theorists with lawyers (e.g "If you rolled back trades because of this crime, why didn't you report it?")

I just wanted to add that, while it seems like I'm defending them, I really don't fucking want Mt. Gox to send any of my data to any government agency whatsoever, and they darn well should challenge every subpoena.


Why would I even want a "centralized, incorporated exchange"? I want mutliple, competitive exchanges. I don't care if they're incorporated or not. I just want them to protect my BT.

I don't get your point about warrants and subpoenas. Have any been issued in this case?

Just because the authorities haven't declared something "legal", that doesn't mean it's "illegal." It means that it's free/liberated.

Personally, I would prefer to keep the bitcoin market free from state violence and corrupted manipulation.

But you make a good point about how it's potentially MORE dangerous not to report this "crime"...

Eh... I just want MtGox to open again....
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