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Author Topic: "Sources said traders would have a hard time getting US dollars out of Mtgox"  (Read 3899 times)
MonadTran
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May 15, 2013, 12:13:42 PM
 #21

For now its just a bump in the road for the bad guys. 

Which bad guys? There are no bad guys here, besides the ones shutting down a payment method.
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May 15, 2013, 12:28:48 PM
 #22

This is not an attack on bitcoin, this is an attack on Mt. Gox being non-compliant with KYC/AML/Registrations requirements. DHS has seized Mt. Gox assets. They are not going to seize wire transfers from Mt. Gox to customer accounts, nor are they going to seize the assets of compliant exchanges. This episode just reiterates that bitcoin exchanges need to follow the letter of the law or the hammer is going to come down. It's a shame, really, since Mt. Gox has the cash to spend a few dollars hiring decent lawyers to ensure compliance.

The compliance to some stupid, perverse law imposed by a gang of thieves and murderers that is completely broke, and about to fall apart?
This is, quite obviously, an attack on Bitcoin. Compliance, ultimately, means keeping your dollars, and watching them become worthless.


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May 15, 2013, 10:17:40 PM
 #23

Where does MtGox send international wire transfers from?  Recently I got some from Chase Morgan in New York - has US authorities closed this one as well?

Its not in the court order that I saw just mentioned a specific dwolla account number that was being seized.

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May 15, 2013, 10:20:48 PM
 #24

AFAIK international wires are working fine.

AFAIK, meaning before the DHS court order on Dwolla?

Why on earth would you block Dwolla, and let MtGox use wire transfers headed to or from the USA? You can easily block those.

If you're going to block Dwolla, it makes sense you'd also block wires. Otherwise what's the point? People will just use wires, what have you really accomplished?

I certainly wouldn't send or request a wire to or from MtGox. I'd let someone else test that. You can just convert everything to coins, move it off MtGox, and get your money from another exchange. Why even risk it? The DHS is after MtGox, it makes sense to avoid the drama and just use another exchange.

How do they stop wire transfers from mtgox's Japan bank account to ALL countries?

They would need to freeze MTGOX's bank account in Japan to do this.

So far it has not happened.

Not sure if the US Government has the power to do that.

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ManBearPig
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May 17, 2013, 09:00:17 AM
 #25

I think we need a European exchange, not touching USD at all, situated in Switzerland or Luxembourg to rival MtGox. I do not trust the US not to meddle with Bitcoin.

As someone who lives under the curse of all my accounts being in GBP, I am already in the situation that my BTC are at least 2 steps away from my hands, ie. BTC -> USD -> GBP.

I'm opening a Euro account to make this easier (fortunately the UK is still a member of the EU regardless of what those UKIP morons think).

My main fear with BTC is not that it will die or be killed but simply that it depends on USD too much which seems to be against one of the major raisons d'etre of Bitcoin in the first place. If that link is severed, most of the trade will need to reroute with another fiat currency.

I'd like to store my cash as BTC, spend it as BTC just as if I had a savings account in another currency than GBP.

I tweet crypto nonsense: https://twitter.com/DunningKruger_
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May 17, 2013, 04:53:11 PM
 #26

How do they stop wire transfers from mtgox's Japan bank account to ALL countries?

They would need to freeze MTGOX's bank account in Japan to do this.

So far it has not happened.

Not sure if the US Government has the power to do that.

If the feds can show cause that US laws are being broken (eg in regards to US residents), and are dealing with a country with whom they share cooperation agreements that cover asset forfeiture (i.e. many countries), then yes, they likely do.

As of 2003, the US and Japan share a formal mutual legal assistance treaty that covers "fraud and white collar offenses." http://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/2003/August/03_ag_443.htm

Pursuant to such a treaty, the US can make formal mutual legal assistance requests in order to have assets frozen/seized under Japanese jurisdiction.

More on international cooperation in asset forfeiture:
http://apps.americanbar.org/rol/publications/asia_raca_apec_asset_forfeiture.pdf
http://www.irs.gov/irm/part9/irm_09-007-010.html#d0e49

More likely, IMO, if the feds want to crack down on Mt Gox, they will continue targeting its US banking intermediaries.
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May 17, 2013, 05:28:35 PM
 #27

This is not an attack on bitcoin, this is an attack on Mt. Gox being non-compliant with KYC/AML/Registrations requirements. DHS has seized Mt. Gox assets. They are not going to seize wire transfers from Mt. Gox to customer accounts, nor are they going to seize the assets of compliant exchanges. This episode just reiterates that bitcoin exchanges need to follow the letter of the law or the hammer is going to come down. It's a shame, really, since Mt. Gox has the cash to spend a few dollars hiring decent lawyers to ensure compliance.

Not speculating, but do not take this as a given. The feds do not put customers first. They can certainly seize incoming wires to customers, specifically for noncompliance issues, and have. Just ask UseMyWallet or eWalletXpress users. Or Full Tilt Poker players.

+1111 on this. As a long time veteran of internet advantage gambling and poker playing I can say with some certainty that this smells exactly like a similar situation. (Still waiting for my Full Tilt remission...) Do NOT except the DOJ to care about safeguarding your money, do NOT expect that Mt Gox will be able to stay solvent once accounts are frozen, do NOT expect that you will get the full story from Mt Gox before you suffer losses, etc.

I do not expect this to hurt bitcoin as a whole, in fact the point of bitcoin is to be able to route around interference like this. But at this point, if you are holding money in Mt Gox when there are other well-capitalized exchanges (that granted, might also someday face similar attacks from countries, especially the US) and willfully ignoring the writing on the wall of a company that is in over their head (saying nothing about their intentions here, just that they seem to be technically and legally in dubious waters) then any losses you suffer are your fault.

Simply no reason not to shift bitcoins to a different exchange unless you are a daytrader that depends on as much liquidity as possible.
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May 17, 2013, 05:38:37 PM
 #28

Quote from 4th paragraph of this article: http://www.nypost.com/p/news/business/crackdown_on_bitcoin_exchange_jdjp9NaLCdypnhcu6JBQLN

What does this mean exactly? Will no users in the US be able to cash out? Will this lead everyone to buy BTC and transfer somewhere else? Thoughts on how this is going to play out?

Joke's on them, we don't want US dollars!

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