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Author Topic: TEU – the shipping crypto currency - bounty announced  (Read 9550 times)
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September 12, 2017, 07:33:21 PM
 #161


Dev discussion:

In shipper 2030 and various meetings with liners / NVOs / BCOs, industrial practitioners concern most is about the transaction cost of using Ethereum. Our initial smart contract architecture to interact with smart contract as detail as possible for taking the benefit of public ledger properties of blockchain. However, we found it too expensive given we are trying to tackle a business problem and each cent counts. We have written the smart contract and simply deployment will run 1.8M gas and it will involve 10+ function calls which each costs 50-100K gas from all parties involved. It is costly even if we use 1Gwei gas price. Using 1 Gwei price will cause delay and sometimes couldn't be validated at all in the meantime.

Our solution is to reduce massively the interaction with the blockchain. We only secure the TEU tokens of both sides in the smart contract. All other intermediary states are stored in the API.

Devs: any other good suggestions?

https://www.coindesk.com/ethereums-double-edged-sword-will-rising-price-hurt-users



TEU - bitcoin for shipping
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September 13, 2017, 12:51:51 PM
 #162


Its taken you awhile to figure this out, however if the shipping industry is to adopt a blockchain solution, we need to offer a solution which is cheaper than the current infrastructure. I sent you an email on the 22/08/2016 noting the same.

Any public form of blockchain that is backed by a cyrpto currency is going to be too expensive. Basically data = Money, lots of data = lots of money.

MTI has used various Blockchain technologies and have selected the right technology to use which is Agility Sciences MAS protocol.

You may want to rethink your strategy with the technology you will deploy your smart contracts on.
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September 13, 2017, 01:54:12 PM
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Dev discussion:

In shipper 2030 and various meetings with liners / NVOs / BCOs, industrial practitioners concern most is about the transaction cost of using Ethereum. Our initial smart contract architecture to interact with smart contract as detail as possible for taking the benefit of public ledger properties of blockchain. However, we found it too expensive given we are trying to tackle a business problem and each cent counts. We have written the smart contract and simply deployment will run 1.8M gas and it will involve 10+ function calls which each costs 50-100K gas from all parties involved. It is costly even if we use 1Gwei gas price. Using 1 Gwei price will cause delay and sometimes couldn't be validated at all in the meantime.

Our solution is to reduce massively the interaction with the blockchain. We only secure the TEU tokens of both sides in the smart contract. All other intermediary states are stored in the API.

Devs: any other good suggestions?

https://www.coindesk.com/ethereums-double-edged-sword-will-rising-price-hurt-users




So in other words:

You launch a business plan, asking investors for money in an ICO.

At the outset it was clear that you did not have anything in place in terms of customers as you hadn't even spoken to the shipping lines prior to publically asking for investment money. I.e. no tangible estimates of potential revenue.

Now, 6 weeks later, it seems you are only just now beginning to contemplate what the cost in your model is, and you are apparently unpleasantly surprised.

I.e. you have already taken in investments for a business case where you have no idea of revenue, and until now also no idea of cost. And your approach to this problem is to ask if the devs any good solutions?

Would like to hear from some of the buyers to TEU in here how they feel about the investment?
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September 13, 2017, 03:14:32 PM
 #164


Transaction Cost Progress:

We have excellent progress in the system architecture and now achieve US$0.12 per transaction using 1ETH = USD400 exchange rate. The PoC has excellent progress and I am very pleased about the progress of development.



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September 13, 2017, 03:29:53 PM
 #165


Its taken you awhile to figure this out, however if the shipping industry is to adopt a blockchain solution, we need to offer a solution which is cheaper than the current infrastructure. I sent you an email on the 22/08/2016 noting the same.

Any public form of blockchain that is backed by a cyrpto currency is going to be too expensive. Basically data = Money, lots of data = lots of money.

MTI has used various Blockchain technologies and have selected the right technology to use which is Agility Sciences MAS protocol.

You may want to rethink your strategy with the technology you will deploy your smart contracts on.


Thank you for your comment and we have discussed with IBM on the possibility of using private chain. Unit transaction cost is cheap in private chain but setting up cost is huge. When you amortize the sunk cost, the unit transaction cost is not cheap. On rolling out of the business model, using a robust public blockchain is the proven strategy. If you look at our architecture, we have three layers, UI layer, Intermediate API layer and foundation blockchain layer. Currently, we have chosen Ethereum due to it's proven success and robustness. In our design of architecture, we can change the technology of any layer including moving out from Ethereum to private chain. In this stage, the execution of using private chain will derail our focus from solving the pain point of the industry.

We continue explore different solution including your suggestion.


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September 13, 2017, 03:58:14 PM
 #166


Its taken you awhile to figure this out, however if the shipping industry is to adopt a blockchain solution, we need to offer a solution which is cheaper than the current infrastructure. I sent you an email on the 22/08/2016 noting the same.

Any public form of blockchain that is backed by a cyrpto currency is going to be too expensive. Basically data = Money, lots of data = lots of money.

MTI has used various Blockchain technologies and have selected the right technology to use which is Agility Sciences MAS protocol.

You may want to rethink your strategy with the technology you will deploy your smart contracts on.

MTI? MAS? At first I thought it was Ministry of Trade and Industry Singapore and the Monetary Authority of Singapore.

No, it's this.

http://www.agilitysciences.com/the-team/

Seems like TEU devs have decided on public, not private chain and I think they gave some valid reasons.

TEU Pre-ICO: 16-Aug – 20-Sep-2017
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September 13, 2017, 04:15:25 PM
 #167


So in other words:

You launch a business plan, asking investors for money in an ICO.

At the outset it was clear that you did not have anything in place in terms of customers as you hadn't even spoken to the shipping lines prior to publically asking for investment money. I.e. no tangible estimates of potential revenue.

Now, 6 weeks later, it seems you are only just now beginning to contemplate what the cost in your model is, and you are apparently unpleasantly surprised.

I.e. you have already taken in investments for a business case where you have no idea of revenue, and until now also no idea of cost. And your approach to this problem is to ask if the devs any good solutions?

Would like to hear from some of the buyers to TEU in here how they feel about the investment?


I feel exposed uncertainty is a brave and correct step, especially in the formative stages of a project. Better to iron out the problems early. Ethereum is also an *experimental*  Huh work in progress as stated by one of the main devs. This after ballooning to be a multi-billion dollar coin holding up a ton of ICO's like Atlas.

Which ICO, like you hint should, actually have customers in place before launch except Omisego? I'm seriously asking for recommendations.

Perhaps the slick advertising and certainty of some other projects will appeal to you. Take a look at the confident presentation of Monetha's team who know exactly how to change their part of the world, reading from the teleprompter and projecting "believe me" vibes, barely hiding the partying from last night. https://www.monetha.io/
https://hacked.com/ico-analysis-monetha/ should bring you back to earth.

Throw a stone, you'll hit an ICO Utrust.

TEU Pre-ICO: 16-Aug – 20-Sep-2017
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September 13, 2017, 04:41:41 PM
 #168


you have already taken in investments for a business case where you have no idea of revenue, and until now also no idea of cost.


I'm sure they were aware of revenue and cost. See the whitepaper discussion on the pain point. Gas price etc is common understanding among Eth users.
(Shill mode)  Cheesy Their point was this was a concern of the industry "where cents count". Probably because of volume. I see it as a fine-tuning of the process. They have already suggested keeping most of it off chain to keep costs down. Ethereum's Raiden may help. There's always it seems the  fallback of going private. But using a private chain loses more immutability, if there's such a thing.
https://www.multichain.com/blog/2017/05/blockchain-immutability-myth/

There are definitely issues with congestion, fee increases etc. Ironically, fantasy projects will face none of these issues. Cheesy

In the beginning, when TEU is used as a deposit, my impression is that the fee is irrelevant. Just as when sending bitcoin, sometimes the wallet/exchange will allow for the fee to be deducted from the amount sent. The receiver/winner of a deposit "bet" may be happy to receive *any* amount for a breach of trust, since in the past they received worse than $0 (lost opportunity).

It seemed to me that only when a definite amount has to reach the receiver, ie, when TEU is used for transaction, that then the fee will be a 'banker's fee' and matter. I could be wrong.

TEU Pre-ICO: 16-Aug – 20-Sep-2017
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September 14, 2017, 06:08:35 AM
 #169

What we need in the shipping industry is a  . . .

Low cost network , where users provide the compute and storage capacity for the chain or rather ledger.

The ability to connect EDIFACT - API - LEDGER - Interoperability , so if you think private then you may as well not even use a blockchain

A scaleable network , so we can attach documents , pictures to the data and hash representation

A hybrid approach to public / private, encrypt what you need and publish what you want.

Automation is the real benefit to the industry along with Transparency and Visibility of the supply chain.

Throwing Cyrpto into the mix now is a little bit too early in IMHO , as actors dont even get what "blockchain" is at the moment. Its like selling an Iphone without showing it - to Nokia 3210 users. People just dont believe you.

The route which MTI has taken is one of certification and attestation to our products. Agility Sciences (http://www.agilitysciences.com) are very quite, though so are we. We are doers.

Mylinkedin Profile https://www.linkedin.com/in/jody-cleworth-49849445/

Some Press
http://forwardermagazine.com/industry-news/blockchain-system-successfully-deployed-to-revolutionise-the-container-shipping-industry/

The White Paper
http://www.marinetransportint.com/container-streams-white-paper/
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September 14, 2017, 09:11:22 AM
 #170


Cargo rolled over? Two startups propose a new way to contract for shipping:

http://www.supplychaindive.com/news/cargo-freight-forward-contract-NYSHEX-300cubits/504446/


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September 14, 2017, 09:18:45 AM
 #171

Looking at the application of block chain technology in various industries, the emergence of various ICO every day, investment needs to be cautious
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September 14, 2017, 10:05:36 AM
 #172

Blockchain and trucking?
The idea is great and looks like there are some more startups in this field.
So what is the use of the token in your model?

Doft $50M ICO | Going now!!! | doft.com
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September 14, 2017, 12:26:18 PM
 #173


3. Is it possible that the shipping industry itself will support your ICO sale since if everyone chips in a bit for the "capital injection", the ship can set sail easier, so to speak? Will you then consider suggesting that they buy some low priced TEU "coupons" for use as deposit?

4. Even if the TEU token is low-priced, maybe it can serve as a signal of trustworthiness, since the record of faith-keeping/promise-breaking will be in the blockchain. Are you highlighting this?

5. Who are your code developers?

6. You mentioned, I think, VC funding. Will it be better to get them to buy the token instead of fiat injection?

All the best and hoping to hear from you soon.

Hi, please see if you can provide answers to the above.

TEU Pre-ICO: 16-Aug – 20-Sep-2017
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September 14, 2017, 12:50:24 PM
 #174


Cargo rolled over? Two startups propose a new way to contract for shipping:

http://www.supplychaindive.com/news/cargo-freight-forward-contract-NYSHEX-300cubits/504446/



So it seems NYSHEX is your competitor.
The problem with Ethereum is the use of crypto-exchanges to transfer between TEU and fiat. Who will secure the TEU held by companies? In a way, each company is their own bank for TEU. Maybe you can incorporate a fiat/TEU converter so that you buy/sell TEU for those who wish.

NYSHEX only deals with fiat. TEU advantage is the "free money" to get the wheels moving. Will one year's delay be overcome?
Which one has a higher learning curve?

TEU Pre-ICO: 16-Aug – 20-Sep-2017
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September 14, 2017, 11:14:17 PM
 #175

Blockchain and trucking?
The idea is great and looks like there are some more startups in this field.
So what is the use of the token in your model?



It is used as collateral deposit for container shipment booking.


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September 14, 2017, 11:17:27 PM
 #176

Looking at the application of block chain technology in various industries, the emergence of various ICO every day, investment needs to be cautious




25-Jul USA SEC - Investor Bulletin: Initial Coin Offerings
https://www.sec.gov/oiea/investor-alerts-and-bulletins/ib_coinofferings

28-Aug USA SEC - Investor Alert: Public Companies Making ICO-Related Claims
https://www.sec.gov/oiea/investor-alerts-and-bulletins/ia_icorelatedclaims

1-Aug Singapore MAS - MAS clarifies regulatory position on the offer of digital tokens in Singapore
http://www.mas.gov.sg/News-and-Publications/Media-Releases/2017/MAS-clarifies-regulatory-position-on-the-offer-of-digital-tokens-in-Singapore.aspx

4-Sep PRC - 《七部门关于防范代币发行融资风险的公告》
http://www.miit.gov.cn/n1146290/n4388791/c5781140/content.html

5-Sep HK - Statement on initial coin offerings
https://www.sfc.hk/edistributionWeb/gateway/EN/news-and-announcements/news/doc?refNo=17PR117

12-Sep UK FCA - Initial Coin Offerings
https://www.fca.org.uk/news/statements/initial-coin-offerings



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September 14, 2017, 11:24:55 PM
 #177


Cargo rolled over? Two startups propose a new way to contract for shipping:

http://www.supplychaindive.com/news/cargo-freight-forward-contract-NYSHEX-300cubits/504446/



So it seems NYSHEX is your competitor.
The problem with Ethereum is the use of crypto-exchanges to transfer between TEU and fiat. Who will secure the TEU held by companies? In a way, each company is their own bank for TEU. Maybe you can incorporate a fiat/TEU converter so that you buy/sell TEU for those who wish.

NYSHEX only deals with fiat. TEU advantage is the "free money" to get the wheels moving. Will one year's delay be overcome?
Which one has a higher learning curve?



Why do we like blockchain technology? Immutable and trust-less infrastructure. TEU token is secured in the wallets of the companies. Upon placing the token as deposit in the booking smart contract, the code is transparent and each company can audit the code to ensure their TEU token is safe. In traditional case, you have to trust some other companies, like bank.

NYSHEX is not our competitor. We are potential collaborators. I would say my competitors are banks who issue the bank guarantee.  


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September 14, 2017, 11:33:36 PM
 #178


3. Is it possible that the shipping industry itself will support your ICO sale since if everyone chips in a bit for the "capital injection", the ship can set sail easier, so to speak? Will you then consider suggesting that they buy some low priced TEU "coupons" for use as deposit?

4. Even if the TEU token is low-priced, maybe it can serve as a signal of trustworthiness, since the record of faith-keeping/promise-breaking will be in the blockchain. Are you highlighting this?

5. Who are your code developers?

6. You mentioned, I think, VC funding. Will it be better to get them to buy the token instead of fiat injection?

All the best and hoping to hear from you soon.

Hi, please see if you can provide answers to the above.



3. Shipping companies tend to support the development via traditional equities channels in developing the TEU ecosystems instead of buying TEU tokens directly since the concept is relative new to them. They will consider but traditional investment in platform in form of equities is the preferred channel.

4. No matter whatever proposed solutions, they will try and hope any solutions (or combined) can help them reduce or solve the ghost booking pain point.

5. We are discussing with 2 firms for production development and currently all coding is done in house. You can audit the codes of our crowdsale and token contract in github.

6. Similar to shipping companies, it is relative new to them and with recent news on ICO from regulators, the route of equities funding is more a likely route.

Thank you for your support.


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September 15, 2017, 07:02:01 AM
 #179




NYSHEX is not our competitor. We are collaborators. I would say my competitors are banks who issue the bank guarantee.  
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Will you be coming with an official statement joint with NYSHEX that you are now collaborating?
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September 15, 2017, 07:20:34 AM
 #180

What we need in the shipping industry is a  . . .

Low cost network , where users provide the compute and storage capacity for the chain or rather ledger.

The ability to connect EDIFACT - API - LEDGER - Interoperability , so if you think private then you may as well not even use a blockchain

A scaleable network , so we can attach documents , pictures to the data and hash representation

A hybrid approach to public / private, encrypt what you need and publish what you want.

Automation is the real benefit to the industry along with Transparency and Visibility of the supply chain.

Throwing Cyrpto into the mix now is a little bit too early in IMHO , as actors dont even get what "blockchain" is at the moment. Its like selling an Iphone without showing it - to Nokia 3210 users. People just dont believe you.

The route which MTI has taken is one of certification and attestation to our products. Agility Sciences (http://www.agilitysciences.com) are very quite, though so are we. We are doers.

Mylinkedin Profile https://www.linkedin.com/in/jody-cleworth-49849445/

Some Press
http://forwardermagazine.com/industry-news/blockchain-system-successfully-deployed-to-revolutionise-the-container-shipping-industry/

The White Paper
http://www.marinetransportint.com/container-streams-white-paper/


We have read the paper and the idea sounds interesting. Essentially, the proposed protocol has the following features:
 
1. It’ll be a permissioned blockchain, so a consortium of alpha nodes serves as the trusted agency.
2. Compared with other permissioned blockchains, its main feature is multithreading, or basically parallel processing (what they call “activity streaming” in the paper). So, one thread will do the processing in real time without any latency, whereas the other threads will be doing some other work (maybe verification?) in the background. This way, they intend to reduce the latency in the network (unlike proof-of-work or proof-of-stake).
3. This activity streaming also facilitates partitioning or “zoning” the transactions. So, the network of nodes can work asynchronously and handle different tasks at the same time. This is what they mean by territoriality.
 
What is not clear in the paper, however, is how the protocol ensures transaction integrity when the “zoning” or multithreading occurs. I suppose for transactions that are completely unrelated, this protocol can speed up the work (much like parallel processing of independent tasks in computing). But for transactions that are related or interdependent, I’d imagine this protocol would still incur some latency because the different transactions cannot be processed in parallel. This is not mentioned clearly in the paper.
 
Overall, I think this protocol has some clever ideas (parallel processing of transactions) that can address the weakness of POW or POS, and hence it can definitely enhance efficiency when it is used in wide scale. However, it is a permissioned solution, meaning trust has to be endowed. Also, based on my understanding it still doesn’t remove transaction latency completely especially when the transactions are inter-related.

We are happy to explore technological solutions to enhance our process and hopefully we can have more technical discussions in this forum.

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