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Borilla
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September 16, 2017, 10:54:19 PM
 #41

Brain scan: you watch a sequence of images with a helmet of sensors. Your brain scan is sent to AI computer that has learn how to recognize who is who. It should come soon and there's a busyness here.
DNA can be stolen
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September 18, 2017, 08:20:25 AM
 #42

I was having a kind of thought experiment...

Let's say that you create a new crypto-currency. Before the creation of the first genesis block you create 25 billion wallets with each 1 coin in it. The purpose of this would be that anyone on earth, could claim his 1 coin at anytime.

My question:

How would you prevent that someone claims more than 1 wallet?


PS: I didn't incorporate more details because this is not necessary for the question at hand.

That would be a very hard thing to regulate. But i think it helps if you implement stricter user profile verification processes in to your wallet to ensure no duplication. I'm thinking of adding additional safety and unlock features like finger print verification or iris verification. Since most mobile phones have finger print scanners so that would do for a start.

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September 18, 2017, 10:55:08 AM
 #43

I think we could use something like faceId which Apple uses on their phones, since all of our faces are unique! Which could easily become a possibility as coindesk reported apple and other tech companies were looking into cryptocurrency API's. FaceId could also be used for your bitcoin wallet password as well.
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September 18, 2017, 06:23:54 PM
 #44

This thought experiment has already partially occurred. That's exactly what Auroracoin did with the population of Iceland.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auroracoin

Its distribution was tied in with their national ID system.

I've no idea how you'd achieve it internationally as it would be a shocking mishmash of attempts at identification.

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September 18, 2017, 06:36:12 PM
 #45

Maybe something that evaluates the retina or as many said you, with your national ID.

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September 18, 2017, 06:42:33 PM
 #46

After doing everything to ensure that everyone got only one wallet, some people would come and fuck up everything by forking the software and creating

Double the amounts in a single minute mate. in case if you are just learning about the world and how things work, this is why we have governments and why

We have so many organizations and agencies. if you want to succeed in a massive scale like your experiment the only way is to establish regional governments

To handle the work load for you and they all will have to follow one set of rules, AKA >GOVERNMENT< is born.














 

 

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tAoC
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September 18, 2017, 11:01:06 PM
 #47

- snip -
How would you prevent that someone claims more than 1 wallet?
- snip -

Forget about the wallets and coins.  Your thought experiment can be simplified.  Simply ask yourself:

"What is the most cost efficient and most effective way to uniquely identify a single person such that nobody else can pretend to be them and they can not pretend not to be themselves?"

Identification papers (passport, drivers license or national ID card, etc) can be copied, stolen, or faked.

The only answer I can come up with would be to require that the person be physically in your presence and that you find a way to reliably take a DNA sample from them.  Then fully sequence that DNA and store a hash of the result in a database.  Compare the results of each new person against all the results in your database.  Note that you may run into a problem with identical twins (triplets, quadruplets, etc).  In that case, you might require that they all be present together at the time of DNA extraction, and that if any are missing they will be excluded from the offer.

Obviously this would be a difficult and expensive thing to accomplish, but as a thought experiment it's the most reliable method I can think of.  You could reduce the costs if you were willing to accept that some people will be able to take advantage of the system.  How much effort and money you could save would depend on how much risk you were willing to accept of people gaining access to multiple wallets.
that indeed is the only current solution. it would cost billions upon billions of $.
i really hope satoshi nakamoto uses his 1m btc to make this idea a reality!
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September 19, 2017, 05:06:29 AM
 #48

that indeed is the only current solution. it would cost billions upon billions of $.
i really hope satoshi nakamoto uses his 1m btc to make this idea a reality!

Why should Satoshi use his 1m btc to make this idea a reality?
Why should anybody waste his money for this idea?

What would be the result?
Everybody on earth would own one coin of a new currency.
This will not invalidate the old currencies.
Rich people stay rich, poor people stay poor.

I don't see any benefit for this. Or am I missing something?
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September 19, 2017, 11:38:48 AM
 #49

This thought experiment has already partially occurred. That's exactly what Auroracoin did with the population of Iceland.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auroracoin

Its distribution was tied in with their national ID system.

I've no idea how you'd achieve it internationally as it would be a shocking mishmash of attempts at identification.

Some years ago (in the Auroracoin times Wink ) I started a discussion about exactly that topic in the German Forum. Some found the idea ridiculous, others brought in interesting approaches, like a combination of phone numbers, IDs and audio verification. It would however not be 100% ungameable.

My conclusion is, for now: A worldwide airdrop that is completely (or at least, 99,9% ...) "un-gameable" would only work if in every single country of the world was a large, engaged group of users that cared about the verification process and knew the problems of identification in their country. One entity I could imagine as a "partner" would be local universities because they run their own identification systems, but they're not trustable in every country (in some, they're too close related to the government, in others, there's widespread corruption) out there - it would need the opinion of the local community about them as an input. Another interesting idea I read about were "identification parties" or "verification parties" (I don't remember the exact name), where a pseudonymous ID is granted to everyone that is physically present at a location where the ID is issued.

A thing that came in my mind as an alternative, would be a GPS-based airdrop: coins would be distributed randomly with the latitude of the receiver as "identification". But that would need trusted hardware and if someone can "fake" trusted hardware (e.g. an employee of the ) he would game the system.

All these approaches need some kind of trust - I doubt a completely trustless system would be possible unless we had a "big brother" kind of 24/7 worldwide vigilante state.

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September 19, 2017, 02:25:23 PM
 #50

that indeed is the only current solution. it would cost billions upon billions of $.
i really hope satoshi nakamoto uses his 1m btc to make this idea a reality!

Why should Satoshi use his 1m btc to make this idea a reality?
Why should anybody waste his money for this idea?

What would be the result?
Everybody on earth would own one coin of a new currency.
This will not invalidate the old currencies.
Rich people stay rich, poor people stay poor.

I don't see any benefit for this. Or am I missing something?
you wrote benefit yourself and dont see benefit?
"Rich people stay rich, poor people stay poor."
exactly to change that fact.
satoshi may do this because he never touched own btc and acted very altruistic all the way.
i believe this his great vision: everybody have crypto equal.
sure would not invalidate other crypto. but satoshi supported coin with equal distrubution and adoption of lets say 50 - 90% would be insane value.
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September 19, 2017, 03:13:29 PM
 #51

Then there's devaluable of crypto, because there's no "difficulties" on getting it
People just try to fake their data until the coin has no more value
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September 19, 2017, 03:35:43 PM
 #52

I was having a kind of thought experiment...

Let's say that you create a new crypto-currency. Before the creation of the first genesis block you create 25 billion wallets with each 1 coin in it. The purpose of this would be that anyone on earth, could claim his 1 coin at anytime.

My question:

How would you prevent that someone claims more than 1 wallet?


PS: I didn't incorporate more details because this is not necessary for the question at hand.

Biometric combination of fingerprint and retina/iris scanner.  The sum o f these two scans should be unique.
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September 19, 2017, 03:45:25 PM
 #53

As several have said it is a totally pointless exercise to give everyone on Earth one coin.  There are two possibilites:

1) Since everyone has the same amount of coins the coins are perceived as having no value therefore they have no value and the entire experiment is a flop.

2) If for some reason the coins are perceived to have some value then within a very short period of time all the rich will end up having all the coins and all the poor will have no coins and again the entire experiment is a flop.

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September 19, 2017, 05:51:00 PM
 #54

that indeed is the only current solution. it would cost billions upon billions of $.
i really hope satoshi nakamoto uses his 1m btc to make this idea a reality!

Why should Satoshi use his 1m btc to make this idea a reality?
Why should anybody waste his money for this idea?

What would be the result?
Everybody on earth would own one coin of a new currency.
This will not invalidate the old currencies.
Rich people stay rich, poor people stay poor.

I don't see any benefit for this. Or am I missing something?
you wrote benefit yourself and dont see benefit?
"Rich people stay rich, poor people stay poor."
exactly to change that fact.
satoshi may do this because he never touched own btc and acted very altruistic all the way.
i believe this his great vision: everybody have crypto equal.
sure would not invalidate other crypto. but satoshi supported coin with equal distrubution and adoption of lets say 50 - 90% would be insane value.

If I understood you correctly, you think, that one coin distributed to each person on earth would change, that poor people are poor.
I think, this will not change anything. You cannot make poor people get rich (or at least wealthy) with this methode.

Ok, let's do some math.
Lets's assume, that Satoshi is a really nice person and donate his 1m btc to create a new currency which is worth 1m btc.
With the current price of about 4000$ per Bitcoin, the market cap of this new coin would be 1,000,000 * 4,000$ = 4,000,000,000$.
At the moment there are about 7.5 billion people on earth. When each of them get one coin, this one coin would be worth 4,000.000.000 / 7,500,000,000 = 0.53$.
This calculation does not include the cost which would be needed to give each person one coin. If you would also calculate those costs, every coin would represent a big debt.

So, this would not change anything. Even with a price of 100,000$ per BTC such a new coin would only be worth 13.33$.

The new currency you want to spread out need to have a significant value to change anything. But this value does not come from thin air. Someone need to invest in it to give it the value it needs.
Just giving one coin to each person would not give this coin any value.

As much as I would love to see a better distribution of wealth, in the real world this will never happen. And unfortunatly this idea cannot work.
But prove me wrong. Maybe you have a better idea to give this coin the value it needs.
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September 20, 2017, 01:00:52 AM
 #55

I would use finger print for Biometric identification due to the fact that every human being has unique fingerprint patterns. Most importantly, fingerprint scanners are cheap and widely available.
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September 20, 2017, 04:56:05 AM
 #56

I would use finger print for Biometric identification due to the fact that every human being has unique fingerprint patterns. Most importantly, fingerprint scanners are cheap and widely available.


Fingerprint scanners are cheap, yes, but also useless.

Fingerprints can easily be faked. You could claim 1 coin over and over with a new set of fingerprints.
http://www.wikihow.com/Fake-Fingerprints

The CCC (Chaos Computer Club) did this with just a picture from a press conference from the German minister of defense, to prove that fingerprints are not secure at all.
http://www.tagesspiegel.de/weltspiegel/chaos-computer-club-hacker-kopieren-fingerabdruck-von-ursula-von-der-leyen/11163644.html

I also don't know why people think that a finger print can secure their smart phone, when the phone is covered with fingerprints from the owner which can unlock the device...

What about amputee? There is also at least one example with a person without fingerprints at all.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/may/27/man-without-finger-prints
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September 20, 2017, 09:46:40 AM
 #57

Just giving one coin to each person would not give this coin any value.
As much as I would love to see a better distribution of wealth, in the real world this will never happen. And unfortunatly this idea cannot work.
But prove me wrong. Maybe you have a better idea to give this coin the value it needs.

I consider ideas more interesting that give every verified account holder "regular" incomes (e.g. some satoshis per month). You're right that a coin that is distributed "freely" in one single airdrop will have a hard time getting value. The main problem is that it is difficult that people would build an ecosystem on it, what is what gives cryptocurrencies a "value" - they would simply dump it when it has achieved some interesting price, the exact way Auroracoin failed.

But if a regular income appears, then for the account holders it becomes rational to at least keep the wallet for some time and use the coin. That concept can be combined with efforts to create a worldwide infraestructure (e.g. payment processing solutions, exchanges, e-commerce plugins). So I don't consider it totally impossible to create some "valuable" coin at the end.

The big - and maybe unsolvable - problem for me is a "un-gameable" identification process. As I already said, there would be a need to have a trustable identification provider in every country. Maybe private companies like https://www.trulioo.com/ or https://miicard.com could do the trick in the initial stage, but they don't work in every country - if such a service is available, in the future, in the whole world then a "worldwide basic income coin" can become possible. However, there is no way to make the process totally trustless.

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September 20, 2017, 12:28:03 PM
 #58

Interesting thought experiment.

You would have to find something everyone can only give (e.g. small toe) or take (e.g. barcode tattoo) once in his lifetime.

Although, thinking about it, both options have drawbacks. How would you deal with persons losing their legs in an accident (in the example “give small toe)? And tattoos / implants can be forcefully removed.

Then I was thinking about how to prevent fraud when handing out the wallets/coins. How do you make sure those who distribute the wallets won’t steal? That is where I like the idea of handing out wallets during childbirth, as mentioned before. Couple that with a time-based restriction (e.g. wallet only becomes active 50 years after handing it out), it might reduce the incentive of fraud at the source (it would also not completely rule it out though).

I cannot think of anything watertight though.

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September 21, 2017, 05:59:08 AM
 #59

I was having a kind of thought experiment...

Let's say that you create a new crypto-currency. Before the creation of the first genesis block you create 25 billion wallets with each 1 coin in it. The purpose of this would be that anyone on earth, could claim his 1 coin at anytime.

My question:

How would you prevent that someone claims more than 1 wallet?


PS: I didn't incorporate more details because this is not necessary for the question at hand.

To enumerate these are the steps.

1. Record an image of thermograph of the person who are suppose to use the wallets.
2. Put it in the blockchain.
3. Only the person with that unique thermograph pattern will be able to use the wallet.
4. All others will locked out of the wallet.

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September 21, 2017, 06:38:44 AM
 #60

I was having a kind of thought experiment...

Let's say that you create a new crypto-currency. Before the creation of the first genesis block you create 25 billion wallets with each 1 coin in it. The purpose of this would be that anyone on earth, could claim his 1 coin at anytime.

My question:

How would you prevent that someone claims more than 1 wallet?


PS: I didn't incorporate more details because this is not necessary for the question at hand.

To enumerate these are the steps.

1. Record an image of thermograph of the person who are suppose to use the wallets.
2. Put it in the blockchain.
3. Only the person with that unique thermograph pattern will be able to use the wallet.
4. All others will locked out of the wallet.

Wouldn't a termograph image change all the time? Environment could influence the image (is it hot or cold). Someone who just did a workout, long walk, hot or cold shower or whatever would produce a different image. Someone who gain or lose weight would have a different image.

Even if it would be unique and don't change over time, how do you get all those images in a trustful way to the blockchain? How can you prevent uploading fake images?
Would you need to confirm your image for every transaction or only for the initial spread?
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