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Author Topic: Sorry to bother you with another potential worry but...  (Read 2621 times)
frozen
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May 17, 2013, 12:30:52 AM
 #21

It occurred to me today that bitcoin is not democratic.  The direction of the blockchain is determined by majority yes, but certain people hold more of it than others. 

Well, I think it's as much democratic as our current implementations of democracy in our political systems.

Sure, everyone has his vote, but you you need to get to know about someone and get convinced to vote for him. At the end of the day it turns out, that number of votes acquired is highly related to amount of money spent on campaign. It isn't 1-to-1 of course, as people's preferences and quality of offer also matter, but the best offer/idea without funding won't get as many votes as the worst offer/idea with huge funding. Number of votes for similar quality ideas will be strictly related to amount of funding spent on promoting them.

Democracy is a system where power is concentrated with people who invested the most in the system. This seems very similar to bitcoins to me.

Because there's nothing which says "you must use bitcoin or forfeit your life," that makes it significantly more democratic than any "current implementations of democracy."

The same is not true for the aforementioned "current implementations of democracy."  Suppose I live in the US and I do not support any war. The fact is that I am required "by law" to fund it. What that means is if I refuse to fund it (by not paying taxes), I can face many years in a cage, and if I resist, I can be shot. Yes, I'm permitted to verbally disagree, yet I have no freedom to disagree financially.

If I disagree with "bitcoin," the alternatives do not threaten my person or property.

mobile4ever
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May 17, 2013, 01:30:12 AM
 #22

It's very vague but I've come round to the point of view that the work done in mining and validating the network is a very real form of work...


If the work of a person has value in a factory, the work of a machine should have at least the same value if that machine does the same job within the same timeframe.


So, doing what miner's do, computing all those hashes... has value just as if a person were doing it.
hashman
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May 17, 2013, 07:16:17 AM
 #23

It occurred to me today that bitcoin is not democratic.

Democracy is a very bad thing in a world full of idiots.

I'm going to disagree.

The world is filled with idiots yes. 
Picking somebody randomly to make important decisions is however is still a good idea.



How does "picking somebody randomly to make important decisions" remain a good idea?


Because a random idiot is more trustworthy than anybody else.  Because thats the best we can do knowing what corruption our wetware is capable of generating.

Well, actually we can't even do that.  Juries these days are sadly always pre-screened.

If you can think of a better way to resolve a double spend, please do let us know. 




frozen
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May 17, 2013, 05:52:52 PM
 #24

It occurred to me today that bitcoin is not democratic.

Democracy is a very bad thing in a world full of idiots.

I'm going to disagree.

The world is filled with idiots yes. 
Picking somebody randomly to make important decisions is however is still a good idea.

How does "picking somebody randomly to make important decisions" remain a good idea?

Because a random idiot is more trustworthy than anybody else.  Because thats the best we can do knowing what corruption our wetware is capable of generating.

I don't follow this logic. Are you saying I should trust a random idiot more than someone who has established trust with me?

Well, actually we can't even do that.  Juries these days are sadly always pre-screened.

If you mention you support jury nullification, you'll be disqualified.

Random idiots are often swayed by the appearance of authority. Random idiots, in groups, often justify the use of violence against non-violent individuals.

If you can think of a better way to resolve a double spend, please do let us know. 

I never claimed I had such a solution. I only wondered if "picking somebody randomly to make important decisions" was truly a good principle or not.




hashman
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May 17, 2013, 11:39:45 PM
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How does "picking somebody randomly to make important decisions" remain a good idea?

Because a random idiot is more trustworthy than anybody else.  Because thats the best we can do knowing what corruption our wetware is capable of generating.

I don't follow this logic. Are you saying I should trust a random idiot more than someone who has established trust with me?


Not exactly.  I'm staying that someone who has an established relationship with you may not be impartial to the decisions which involve you.  For example, you might trust your best friend more than a random idiot to be a juror at your trial.  But is that a more rational solution in the interest of fairness and justice than a random idiot?  Probably not. 

The trick is you have to get somebody to make the decision that everybody agrees is the right person.  Democritus solved this problem by picking a citizen at random.  He would certainly disagree with the voting for a representative of the people, even before realizing the charade of insecure voting practices.   

Quote
Well, actually we can't even do that.  Juries these days are sadly always pre-screened.

If you mention you support jury nullification, you'll be disqualified.


That is scary.  Kind of like having a copy of the constitution on you is evidence you are a subversive enemy of the state. 

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Random idiots are often swayed by the appearance of authority. Random idiots, in groups, often justify the use of violence against non-violent individuals.


Very good points.  In bitcoin, the random idiot who secures a block of transaction can remain relatively anonymous.  Lets hope the formation of pools doesn't wind up too much fortelling your second issue there. 

Quote

If you can think of a better way to resolve a double spend, please do let us know. 

I never claimed I had such a solution. I only wondered if "picking somebody randomly to make important decisions" was truly a good principle or not.


This was the original proposal by Democritus.  He wrote that a better solution was to use a random idiot.  Well OK, maybe he didn't use the word idiot Smiley  In any case, Satoshi's solution for the double spending problem is very much along the lines of what Democritus wrote, and seems to work pretty well so far. 

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