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Author Topic: How Can Core Counter the Emergency Difficulty Adjustment of Bitcoin ABC?  (Read 1289 times)
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August 07, 2017, 11:33:42 PM
 #1

After the hard fork on Aug 1, 2017 both Bitcoin and Bitcoin Cash had the same difficulty. Due to the EDA built in to the Bitcoin ABC client difficulty on the Bitcoin Cash chain quickly ramped down to 144323701657.02 or 17% of Bitcoin current difficulty. The value will be even less when Bitcoin difficulty adjusts up in a few days. Once difficulty on the Bitcoin Cash chain drops to less than 8% of Bitcoin difficulty miners will be incentivized to switch mining to the Bitcoin Cash chain. How can Bitcoin Core prevent miners from switching en masse to mining the Bitcoin Cash chain?

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August 07, 2017, 11:44:30 PM
 #2

Are you saying that UASF will increase the difficulty of the confirmations?

If your logic is sound (no reason to believe it isn't) the only thing to prevent miners from switching is the actual transaction volume. If people aren't using Bitcoin Cash there's no money for a miner to make hinged to that blockchain waiting for transactions.
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August 08, 2017, 12:17:29 AM
 #3

At this point I am working under the assumption (and I hope I am wrong) that the 2 MB hard fork of the SegWit2X NYA will not happen and the Chinese mining cartel is not really upset because they are planning on using Bitcoin Cash to take over control of Bitcoin. I would be interested in hearing from those who think this poker game will end with Core the winner and why. There is a lot of money at stake here.

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August 08, 2017, 12:50:06 AM
 #4

After the hard fork on Aug 1, 2017 both Bitcoin and Bitcoin Cash had the same difficulty. Due to the EDA built in to the Bitcoin ABC client difficulty on the Bitcoin Cash chain quickly ramped down to 144323701657.02 or 17% of Bitcoin current difficulty. The value will be even less when Bitcoin difficulty adjusts up in a few days. Once difficulty on the Bitcoin Cash chain drops to less than 8% of Bitcoin difficulty miners will be incentivized to switch mining to the Bitcoin Cash chain. How can Bitcoin Core prevent miners from switching en masse to mining the Bitcoin Cash chain?

There is nothing Core can or should do. The reality is this: any group (developers, users, services, miners) can defect from the consensus and create a hard fork at any time. Changing the parameters of difficulty readjustment is their prerogative.

Miners are unlikely to switch to Bitcoin Cash en masse even if it is more profitable to mine, because it is pretty well understood by now that encouraging such a major network split will destroy the value of both networks. Miners are rational; some may defect, but most will remain.

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August 08, 2017, 12:55:15 AM
Last edit: August 08, 2017, 02:14:47 AM by AgentofCoin
 #5

At this point I am working under the assumption (and I hope I am wrong) that the 2 MB hard fork of the SegWit2X NYA will not happen and the Chinese mining cartel is not really upset because they are planning on using Bitcoin Cash to take over control of Bitcoin. I would be interested in hearing from those who think this poker game will end with Core the winner and why. There is a lot of money at stake here.

Bitcoin Cash can not become the dominate chain since its future is more risky than
sticking with the current chain. It is fine to throw a little bit of hash on the Bcash chain
and get some coins and hold for unexpected profit in the future, but if miners move
majority of their hash to that chain, thus directly harming the Bitcoin chain, they will
have placed their future in the hands of Bcash, which will be regulated by the Chinese
Government and its Intelligence services. Bcash is not about freedom or bigger blocks,
it is about steering the network in a way in which it becomes capturable and thus
compliant to regulation directly within the protocol. It will be enforced by government
approved, licensed, and controlled miners.

The miners who are not based in China, but will be taking such a risk, is a gamble
that no sane person/miner would take. So IMO, majority of the miners will not leave
the Bitcoin chain for the Bcash chain as you think could happen. Through there may
be times where it is more profitable to do so, it must be weighted against whether the
long term viability is realistic.

Why would you let your reliable golden goose bleed out and potentially die, just to get
a few more eggs from a unknown neighbor goose, owned and controlled by an unknown
farmer? Most smart farmers stick to and protect their own geese. You never know if that
unknown neighbor goose is diseased or etc. or what risks you are actually taking on.

So, IMO there is a higher chance of SegWit2x becoming the new chain, then majority
of Bitcoin miners actually moving over to the Bcash chain (though I think there is also
a higher chance that the 2x aspect does not occur). The risks of moving over to Bcash,
or moving back and forth between the chains, is so massive, its insane to accept as
something that could realistically happen, IMO. It involves blind faith, which miners
in the past haven't been very interested in (unless its a purposeful attack type).

Miners are essentially squatters. If they get up and move, they will lose their place.
So the first miners to fully move over to Bcash are the first losers in the larger game.
That is why some are just dipping their toes, it's because no one really wants to swim.

I support a decentralized & unregulatable ledger first, with safe scaling over time.
Request a signed message if you are associating with anyone claiming to be me.
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August 08, 2017, 02:40:41 AM
 #6

@AgentofCoin; @squatter good points well reasoned thank you.

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August 08, 2017, 10:56:34 AM
 #7

@AgentofCoin; @squatter good points well reasoned thank you.

Agreed. And if miners are forced to attack we can change algo.

What is the reverse of this problem?

How does difficulty adjust downwards in abc bitcoin if its hashrate is too high and over how long a period?
I suppose they can fork in an adjustment pattern that way to suit their needs?

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August 08, 2017, 11:26:14 AM
 #8

After the hard fork on Aug 1, 2017 both Bitcoin and Bitcoin Cash had the same difficulty. Due to the EDA built in to the Bitcoin ABC client difficulty on the Bitcoin Cash chain quickly ramped down to 144323701657.02 or 17% of Bitcoin current difficulty. The value will be even less when Bitcoin difficulty adjusts up in a few days. Once difficulty on the Bitcoin Cash chain drops to less than 8% of Bitcoin difficulty miners will be incentivized to switch mining to the Bitcoin Cash chain. How can Bitcoin Core prevent miners from switching en masse to mining the Bitcoin Cash chain?

They can't. It's free-market and miners are free to mine whatever coin they want.

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       ............Open            Dec 1st- Dec 30th............
...................ANN thread      Bounty....................

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August 08, 2017, 12:01:54 PM
 #9

Good discussion here.

I apologize if this info is easy to find, Can someone reference me to the info about the Chinese govt being in control of BCC?

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August 08, 2017, 12:24:21 PM
 #10

At this point I am working under the assumption (and I hope I am wrong) that the 2 MB hard fork of the SegWit2X NYA will not happen and the Chinese mining cartel is not really upset because they are planning on using Bitcoin Cash to take over control of Bitcoin. I would be interested in hearing from those who think this poker game will end with Core the winner and why. There is a lot of money at stake here.

Bitcoin Cash can not become the dominate chain since its future is more risky than
sticking with the current chain. It is fine to throw a little bit of hash on the Bcash chain
and get some coins and hold for unexpected profit in the future, but if miners move
majority of their hash to that chain, thus directly harming the Bitcoin chain, they will
have placed their future in the hands of Bcash, which will be regulated by the Chinese
Government and its Intelligence services. Bcash is not about freedom or bigger blocks,
it is about steering the network in a way in which it becomes capturable and thus
compliant to regulation directly within the protocol. It will be enforced by government
approved, licensed, and controlled miners.


The miners who are not based in China, but will be taking such a risk, is a gamble
that no sane person/miner would take. So IMO, majority of the miners will not leave
the Bitcoin chain for the Bcash chain as you think could happen. Through there may
be times where it is more profitable to do so, it must be weighted against whether the
long term viability is realistic.

Why would you let your reliable golden goose bleed out and potentially die, just to get
a few more eggs from a unknown neighbor goose, owned and controlled by an unknown
farmer? Most smart farmers stick to and protect their own geese. You never know if that
unknown neighbor goose is diseased or etc. or what risks you are actually taking on.

So, IMO there is a higher chance of SegWit2x becoming the new chain, then majority
of Bitcoin miners actually moving over to the Bcash chain (though I think there is also
a higher chance that the 2x aspect does not occur). The risks of moving over to Bcash,
or moving back and forth between the chains, is so massive, its insane to accept as
something that could realistically happen, IMO. It involves blind faith, which miners
in the past haven't been very interested in (unless its a purposeful attack type).

Miners are essentially squatters. If they get up and move, they will lose their place.
So the first miners to fully move over to Bcash are the first losers in the larger game.
That is why some are just dipping their toes, it's because no one really wants to swim.


Evidence??

What place would that be?

What with this anti-chinese miners posting that's been going on for too long?

..C..
.....................
........What is C?.........
..............
...........ICO            Dec 1st – Dec 30th............
       ............Open            Dec 1st- Dec 30th............
...................ANN thread      Bounty....................

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August 08, 2017, 12:44:08 PM
 #11

Evidence? no lol this is a war not a science convention.
It's logical to deduce that statist govts attack bitcoin.
Bitcoin cash is an attack on bitcoin.
The Chinese govt is one of the least inept.
China was uniquely positioned to churn out asic miners more efficiently than other states.

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August 08, 2017, 12:46:43 PM
 #12

What place would that be?
If I understand correctly, he's implying that by leaving the earlier chain they are making it more profitable to mine on the earlier chain and that someone else would fill the gap.  Once that happens, moving back would be an economic burden on the miners.
What with this anti-chinese miners posting that's been going on for too long?
I don't know and it's very annoying.  Also, if the price rose on Bitcoin Cash, non-Chinese miners would start mining on that chain as well.  So not only is Chinese miners being on the Bitcoin Cash chain not a problem, it wouldn't actually happen.
@AgentofCoin; @squatter good points well reasoned thank you.
How does difficulty adjust downwards in abc bitcoin if its hashrate is too high and over how long a period?
We're finding that out right now.  You can check what Bitcoin Cash's mining profitability has been doing relative to Bitcoin here.

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August 08, 2017, 12:53:58 PM
 #13

After the hard fork on Aug 1, 2017 both Bitcoin and Bitcoin Cash had the same difficulty. Due to the EDA built in to the Bitcoin ABC client difficulty on the Bitcoin Cash chain quickly ramped down to 144323701657.02 or 17% of Bitcoin current difficulty. The value will be even less when Bitcoin difficulty adjusts up in a few days. Once difficulty on the Bitcoin Cash chain drops to less than 8% of Bitcoin difficulty miners will be incentivized to switch mining to the Bitcoin Cash chain. How can Bitcoin Core prevent miners from switching en masse to mining the Bitcoin Cash chain?

Bitcoin Core doesn't have to do anything, and they shouldn't do anything, there are a lot of SHA256 coins out there, if they are more profitable to mine, miners go with it until it is not profitable anymore and so on.

Mining is a free market, people go with what's more profitable at the moment.
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August 08, 2017, 01:03:58 PM
 #14

After the hard fork on Aug 1, 2017 both Bitcoin and Bitcoin Cash had the same difficulty. Due to the EDA built in to the Bitcoin ABC client difficulty on the Bitcoin Cash chain quickly ramped down to 144323701657.02 or 17% of Bitcoin current difficulty. The value will be even less when Bitcoin difficulty adjusts up in a few days. Once difficulty on the Bitcoin Cash chain drops to less than 8% of Bitcoin difficulty miners will be incentivized to switch mining to the Bitcoin Cash chain. How can Bitcoin Core prevent miners from switching en masse to mining the Bitcoin Cash chain?

I am confused. Why should they? This is a free market. Miners can go whereever they want to. Its none of their business where miners uses their resources for. If you want a dictatorship, why not go to North Korea.
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August 08, 2017, 01:29:20 PM
 #15

How can Bitcoin Core prevent miners from switching en masse to mining the Bitcoin Cash chain?

Ah, very simply.

It's not the longest chain that wins fork resolution, it's actually the chain with most hashes.


And reducing the difficulty by 92% will result in the ABC chain having fewer hashes, and the resulting lower security. Bitcoin miners could use their mining equipment to play havoc with the ABC chain, if they chose to do so.

The ABC chain will be inherently insecure against attacks, until it's hashrate and commensurate difficulty reaches that of Bitcoin's. And they'll need to convince a huge majority of miners to switch to catch up, it will be much more than 50%.

And they still need to convince the users, even after all that electricity and arm-twisting. If someone can pwn the Bitcoin Network that way, get ready for the PoW change 21st Century CPU mining goldrush, bitches Grin Grin Grin

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August 08, 2017, 01:30:54 PM
 #16

It looks like the Chinese are dumping money into Bitcoin, not Bitcoin Cash.  I would think that if the Chinese Govt really really wanted to kill bitcoin they would just keep buying all the BCC until BCC market cap was like 50B usd.

I was not asking for evidence, just some articles explaining the theory that Chinese Govt is behind BCC.  I thought Craig Wright was pushing BCC more than anyone??  I also thought that the Chinese were Anti-BigBlocks?

Thanks for all the input.

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August 08, 2017, 02:38:18 PM
 #17

After the hard fork on Aug 1, 2017 both Bitcoin and Bitcoin Cash had the same difficulty. Due to the EDA built in to the Bitcoin ABC client difficulty on the Bitcoin Cash chain quickly ramped down to 144323701657.02 or 17% of Bitcoin current difficulty. The value will be even less when Bitcoin difficulty adjusts up in a few days. Once difficulty on the Bitcoin Cash chain drops to less than 8% of Bitcoin difficulty miners will be incentivized to switch mining to the Bitcoin Cash chain. How can Bitcoin Core prevent miners from switching en masse to mining the Bitcoin Cash chain?

Miners follow price. That means, hashrate will follow the higher price, and the higher price will always be the real Bitcoin, not XT, not Classic, not Unlimited, not segwit2x, not ABC/Cash... and the list goes no and on.

The price will always be higher on the real legacy chain, because the big whales will never support the forks.

Miners that support other chains will find themselves in bankruptcy soon enough to realize their mistake and get forced to go back into the legacy chain.
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August 08, 2017, 02:55:20 PM
 #18

They can't. Core drove Segwitcoin to death. Long live the King, Bitcoin Cash.

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August 08, 2017, 02:56:46 PM
 #19

After the hard fork on Aug 1, 2017 both Bitcoin and Bitcoin Cash had the same difficulty. Due to the EDA built in to the Bitcoin ABC client difficulty on the Bitcoin Cash chain quickly ramped down to 144323701657.02 or 17% of Bitcoin current difficulty. The value will be even less when Bitcoin difficulty adjusts up in a few days. Once difficulty on the Bitcoin Cash chain drops to less than 8% of Bitcoin difficulty miners will be incentivized to switch mining to the Bitcoin Cash chain. How can Bitcoin Core prevent miners from switching en masse to mining the Bitcoin Cash chain?

Miners follow price. That means, hashrate will follow the higher price, and the higher price will always be the real Bitcoin, not XT, not Classic, not Unlimited, not segwit2x, not ABC/Cash... and the list goes no and on.

The price will always be higher on the real legacy chain, because the big whales will never support the forks.

Miners that support other chains will find themselves in bankruptcy soon enough to realize their mistake and get forced to go back into the legacy chain.

You realize Bitcoin Cash will be more profitable to mine soon even with a lower price?

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August 08, 2017, 03:05:56 PM
 #20

You realize Bitcoin Cash will be more profitable to mine soon even with a lower price?

If you think Jihan will mine another altcoin youre are wrong. Bitmain needs a certain price fix for his expenses otherwise Jihan goes bankrupt.

Bitmain is not a 1 man company, you cannot run a succesfull business if you cannot fund it  Undecided
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