BitPay stands for many 1000 of shops. They are economic relevant users!

[hv_]

BitPay should be noticed when they have a say what 'users' want.
They stand for voice of a huge merchant community watching the usability and risks of bitcoin's protocol.

If they 'say' it will influence many other merchants accepting or thinking of bitcoin.

Their business suffers from too high fees and LN or other 2nd layer scalings are yet no or no quick, safe options.

What do you users really want? Alts taking over here?

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[Denker]

BitPay should be noticed when they have a say what 'users' want.
They stand for voice of a huge merchant community watching the usability and risks of bitcoin's protocol.

If they 'say' it will influence many other merchants accepting or thinking of bitcoin.

Their business suffers from too high fees and LN or other 2nd layer scalings are yet no or no quick, safe options.

What do you users really want? Alts taking over here?

Bitpay has absolutely no right to speak for anybody except themselves!
Merchants can chosse other payment processors of they want, Bitpay is not the only one out there.
These guys have lost a lot of credibility in the industry since they are just another echo chamber and paid shills by Jihan.
I expect them to close their doors in a few years and new implementations in BTC will make their business model obsolete.

[Mandoy]

BitPay should be noticed when they have a say what 'users' want.
They stand for voice of a huge merchant community watching the usability and risks of bitcoin's protocol.

If they 'say' it will influence many other merchants accepting or thinking of bitcoin.

Their business suffers from too high fees and LN or other 2nd layer scalings are yet no or no quick, safe options.

What do you users really want? Alts taking over here?

Well bitpays is not the only one who are looking at that direction. But their voice as you said is one big help to the merchant community and to all bitcoin users. The high fees did not went down even after the segwit activation and after the blocksize is increased. Users are expecting that the reduction of transaction fee will occur but it was not realized. But anyway let us hope for more sites like bitpay and we should rise and ask to lessen the transaction fees.

[hv_]

BitPay should be noticed when they have a say what 'users' want.
They stand for voice of a huge merchant community watching the usability and risks of bitcoin's protocol.

If they 'say' it will influence many other merchants accepting or thinking of bitcoin.

Their business suffers from too high fees and LN or other 2nd layer scalings are yet no or no quick, safe options.

What do you users really want? Alts taking over here?

Bitpay has absolutely no right to speak for anybody except themselves!
Merchants can chosse other payment processors of they want, Bitpay is not the only one out there.
These guys have lost a lot of credibility in the industry since they are just another echo chamber and paid shills by Jihan.
I expect them to close their doors in a few years and new implementations in BTC will make their business model obsolete.

Quite interesting that some single guy is now responsible for    ...  what?

Some of us have too easy denking...

[DooMAD]

Bitpay has absolutely no right to speak for anybody except themselves!

BitPay are speaking for themselves, despite the obvious fact that certain egos within this community wish they couldn't and will do everything in their power to silence opposing views, all whilst they exert their decidedly narrow views on everyone.  If anything, it's bitcoin.org that like to pretend they speak for everyone (while not letting them speak and removing BitPay/CoPay from their website, along with anything else the egomaniacs who run the site personally disagree with).  The hypocrisy about "speaking for" people is beyond staggering here, especially on this forum.  Clearly neutrality and impartiality are all but dead in this conflict.  All I see now are a bunch of rabid fanboys flailing at each other like they have special needs.  It's just sad.

Personally, I'm just gonna sit back and enjoy the spectacle as impartially as possible, whilst occasionally (actually, that's a lie, frequently) passing disparaging comments about how pathetic most of the people involved are in trying to feebly dictate a narrative they clearly have no control over.  Consensus will decide and you're all idiots for pretending otherwise.  No amount of suppression, restriction, concealment or interdiction will change this.  Fight it as much as you want, because authoritarianism is weak and pitiful in a permissionless environment.  These paltry amateur dramatics are pretty much irrelevant.  It all rides on numbers now and that's all that matters.

Whoever "wins", (most of) you all still suck.  History will forever judge this period in time as one of childish, infantile bickering and little else.  One way or another, there will be a longest chain with the most proof of work and anyone with any sense will be following it.

[hv_]

Bitpay has absolutely no right to speak for anybody except themselves!

BitPay are speaking for themselves, despite the obvious fact that certain egos within this community wish they couldn't and will do everything in their power to silence opposing views, all whilst they exert their decidedly narrow views on everyone.  If anything, it's bitcoin.org that like to pretend they speak for everyone (while not letting them speak and removing BitPay/CoPay from their website, along with anything else the egomaniacs who run the site personally disagree with).  The hypocrisy about "speaking for" people is beyond staggering here, especially on this forum.  Clearly neutrality and impartiality are all but dead in this conflict.  All I see now are a bunch of rabid fanboys flailing at each other like they have special needs.  It's just sad.

Personally, I'm just gonna sit back and enjoy the spectacle as impartially as possible, whilst occasionally (actually, that's a lie, frequently) passing disparaging comments about how pathetic most of the people involved are in trying to feebly dictate a narrative they clearly have no control over.  Consensus will decide and you're all idiots for pretending otherwise.  No amount of suppression, restriction, concealment or interdiction will change this.  Fight it as much as you want, because authoritarianism is weak and pitiful in a permissionless environment.  These paltry amateur dramatics are pretty much irrelevant.  It all rides on numbers now and that's all that matters.

Whoever "wins", (most of) you all still suck.  History will forever judge this period in time as one of childish, infantile bickering and little else.  One way or another, there will be a longest chain with the most proof of work and anyone with any sense will be following it.

It really looks like some group wanna undo, revoke, revert 8 successful years of bitcoin bootstrapping across all levels of society and user levels. For what benefit? Serving egos? power?

Bitcoin has just grown too big for single (group) minds and this is good.

The process of diversifying was seen too long in the alts section - not good - but with diversifying into different dev groups, clients on bitcoin this should stop soon, I hope !

We need more merchants to take over and claim their user rights, I wd feel much better with this as having ranting rasp pi users in the driver seats - unstability and bad reputation programmed!

[cellard]

BitPay should be noticed when they have a say what 'users' want.
They stand for voice of a huge merchant community watching the usability and risks of bitcoin's protocol.

If they 'say' it will influence many other merchants accepting or thinking of bitcoin.

Their business suffers from too high fees and LN or other 2nd layer scalings are yet no or no quick, safe options.

What do you users really want? Alts taking over here?

The insanely huge hipocrisy of clamining everyone that uses BitPay is ok with whatever the NYC agreement says is typical of the big blocker's delusional mindset.

If you think any of the casual users that use BitPay automatically agree with the NYC agreement you must be on crazy pills. None of these people know what the fuck is going on with Bitcoin, they are the casual users that may buy a game or two on Steam and whatnot. This doesn't mean they sign the NYC agreement too, mostly because they aren't even qualified to understand what the matter is.

Nice job by big blockers taking people hostage and claiming they agree with their bullshit. Have fun explaining them how your idea is so awesome as the price crashes heavily come November when Jeff Garzik, the blockchain inspector, pushes his agenda and shitty malware on users.

[Variogam]

Thats what UASF meant to be, users deciding what Bitcoin is. BitPay, Coinbase and other NYA signers have most Bitcoin economic activity, so it is fair they influence the most what Bitcoin really is. And as always for the small guys who disagree: if you dont like it, just use some other altcoin (I heard it so many times with relation to Bitcon fees from them so now its their turn to choose altcoin instead)

[krishnapramod]

BitPay should be noticed when they have a say what 'users' want.
They stand for voice of a huge merchant community watching the usability and risks of bitcoin's protocol.

If they 'say' it will influence many other merchants accepting or thinking of bitcoin.

Their business suffers from too high fees and LN or other 2nd layer scalings are yet no or no quick, safe options.

What do you users really want? Alts taking over here?

It is not what users want, it is what BitPay wants (NYA).

Apart from BitPay there are other bitcoin payment gateways/ service providers for merchants.

Already two LN wallets have been tested on the bitcoin testnet. Wait for LN to be implemented and PoS's to integrate it.

I guess what users want is microtransactions/transactions at the lowest fee, what merchants want is instant transaction/confirmations, globally what users want is cross border transactions at 1/3 the fee of centralized services. Guess it is possible with LN.

If the alt is BCH, I don't see how pumping alone pushes a no real world usage coin, the recent  surge is just pumping. It would drop below $600 by tomorrow or day after tomorrow. So I don't think alts are taking over.

[aso118]

BitPay should be noticed when they have a say what 'users' want.
They stand for voice of a huge merchant community watching the usability and risks of bitcoin's protocol.

If they 'say' it will influence many other merchants accepting or thinking of bitcoin.

Their business suffers from too high fees and LN or other 2nd layer scalings are yet no or no quick, safe options.

What do you users really want? Alts taking over here?

High transaction fees are a problem. Is the developers don't listen to the voice of a majority of people, they run the risk of people switching to Bitcoin Cash. Now you don't need other alts to take over.

[hatshepsut93]

Thats what UASF meant to be, users deciding what Bitcoin is. BitPay, Coinbase and other NYA signers have most Bitcoin economic activity, so it is fair they influence the most what Bitcoin really is. And as always for the small guys who disagree: if you dont like it, just use some other altcoin (I heard it so many times with relation to Bitcon fees from them so now its their turn to choose altcoin instead)

Wrong, owners of bitcoins influence community consensus by trading in open market and determnining what chain is the most valuable and deserves the most resources in a form of PoW. Companies like Coinbase and BitPay don't represent the will of their customers, but they can force their decision on them, since they control the private keys. When it comes to forks with no replay protection, it becomes especially dangerous, because it will for sure make many people lose their coins on both chains.

[cellard]

Thats what UASF meant to be, users deciding what Bitcoin is. BitPay, Coinbase and other NYA signers have most Bitcoin economic activity, so it is fair they influence the most what Bitcoin really is. And as always for the small guys who disagree: if you dont like it, just use some other altcoin (I heard it so many times with relation to Bitcon fees from them so now its their turn to choose altcoin instead)

Wrong, owners of bitcoins influence community consensus by trading in open market and determnining what chain is the most valuable and deserves the most resources in a form of PoW. Companies like Coinbase and BitPay don't represent the will of their customers, but they can force their decision on them, since they control the private keys. When it comes to forks with no replay protection, it becomes especially dangerous, because it will for sure make many people lose their coins on both chains.

I wonder how many failed hardforks will it take for corporate fiat hyenas to understand that in bitcoin you only matte if you are holding the damn thing. These CEOs of whatever corporation don't matter, they don't hold bitcoin, they hold fiat, USD, EUR or whatever, they don't want the best for Bitcoin, they want the best for the fiat they are holding and getting paid in, and losing their BTC on. 

Unfortunately, they do have an impact on the price, because they create FUD, crashing the price.

[szpalata]

Alts taking over? A symbiotic relationship with alts has always been and always will be fine to me, use dash or litecoin for your pint and burger use Bitcoin to pay interest on a loan from a Chinese investor.

I also fancy such symbiotic relationship between Bitcoin and the Altcoins but it seems these Alts are totally dependent on Bitcoin and so if Bitcoin is falling in value they also fall in value and vice versa. This makes it difficult for us to diversify our funds since they are all likely to follow a particular graph curve.

[electronicash]

its not surprising because alo of people are now holding altcoins which could suggest what cions to accept. if there will be just one coin that we all a appreaciating it will be just bitcoin that these merchants that will be accepting but since we saw some are already accepring eth, the rest are hopeful, thy will also be accepted.

[Qartersa]

BitPay should be noticed when they have a say what 'users' want.
They stand for voice of a huge merchant community watching the usability and risks of bitcoin's protocol.

If they 'say' it will influence many other merchants accepting or thinking of bitcoin.

Their business suffers from too high fees and LN or other 2nd layer scalings are yet no or no quick, safe options.

What do you users really want? Alts taking over here?

I agree, high fees are indeed getting out of hand, but that is why the bitcoin network always tries to improve itself by implementing scaling options like what happened earlier this month. Since the community is the one approving what upgrades to implement, I think all concerns of every party has been addressed in that sense. Let's just wait for the actual activation of segwit and the blocksize increase.

[Pettuh4]

BitPay should be noticed when they have a say what 'users' want.
They stand for voice of a huge merchant community watching the usability and risks of bitcoin's protocol.

If they 'say' it will influence many other merchants accepting or thinking of bitcoin.

Their business suffers from too high fees and LN or other 2nd layer scalings are yet no or no quick, safe options.

What do you users really want? Alts taking over here?

I agree, high fees are indeed getting out of hand, but that is why the bitcoin network always tries to improve itself by implementing scaling options like what happened earlier this month. Since the community is the one approving what upgrades to implement, I think all concerns of every party has been addressed in that sense. Let's just wait for the actual activation of segwit and the blocksize increase.

Exactly, November is just around the corner and the little time left is just a small price to pay for Bitcoin to get better. I can't wait for the actual activation of segwit either and the block size finally increased to 2MB.

[hv_]

Alts taking over? A symbiotic relationship with alts has always been and always will be fine to me, use dash or litecoin for your pint and burger use Bitcoin to pay interest on a loan from a Chinese investor.

I also fancy such symbiotic relationship between Bitcoin and the Altcoins but it seems these Alts are totally dependent on Bitcoin and so if Bitcoin is falling in value they also fall in value and vice versa. This makes it difficult for us to diversify our funds since they are all likely to follow a particular graph curve.

And to use such alt shit you always have to do txs to exchanges and / or pay comissions.

This is no solution.

Bitcoin CAN do. It was about to remove middle men.  If not, cryptoworld is dead in some years.

Nobrainer is lift the blocksize ( make it a user param, not a consensus / protocol magic number) , let the markets find out where the real market/tech limit is, free as Bitcoin should be.

[cellard]

Alts taking over? A symbiotic relationship with alts has always been and always will be fine to me, use dash or litecoin for your pint and burger use Bitcoin to pay interest on a loan from a Chinese investor.

I also fancy such symbiotic relationship between Bitcoin and the Altcoins but it seems these Alts are totally dependent on Bitcoin and so if Bitcoin is falling in value they also fall in value and vice versa. This makes it difficult for us to diversify our funds since they are all likely to follow a particular graph curve.

And to use such alt shit you always have to do txs to exchanges and / or pay comissions.

This is no solution.

Bitcoin CAN do. It was about to remove middle men.  If not, cryptoworld is dead in some years.

Nobrainer is lift the blocksize ( make it a user param, not a consensus / protocol magic number) , let the markets find out where the real market/tech limit is, free as Bitcoin should be.

We have already gone about this several times. It's technically nonviable to have the blocksize go up and down, the blocksize must be set as a rule, just like the 21 million coin limit.

Read what the smart people say about dynamic blocksize and you may learn a thing or two.

Everyone wants a dynamic blocksize, the problem is, all proposed solutions thus far do not work.

In any case, claiming everyone using Bitpay wants to use segwit2x is act of hypocrisy only big blockers such as Jeff Garzik could come up with.

[hv_]

Here we could listen to CEO of ShapeShift

https://youtu.be/lFfTFQrQR5A

NYA will come...

[Iranus]

BitPay, Coinbase and other payment processors are very important.  However, it's difficult to underestimate how speculative the current market is.

As it is, a lot of transactions are still going to be between exchanges and wallets or between individuals for smaller reasons.  There's a fine balance of power between whales, miners, merchants, payment processors (representing merchants), mining pools (representing miners), nodes, media and ordinary users.

However, none of them can make an accurate judgement about what the other groups are going to do, and all of them are subject to bias.

[cellard]

Here we could listen to CEO of ShapeShift

https://youtu.be/lFfTFQrQR5A

NYA will come...

NYA will fail, because BTC is not about a couple fiat corporations gathering and taking over the protocol. Bitcoin whale will crush the SegWit2x coin and the miners will be forced to mine back into the real Bitcoin blockchain.

Any other outcome would mean that Bitcoin failed since it was took over by a couple idiots in suits lead by SegWit2x main dev and CIA agent Jeff Garzik.

[hv_]

Here we could listen to CEO of ShapeShift

https://youtu.be/lFfTFQrQR5A

NYA will come...

NYA will fail, because BTC is not about a couple fiat corporations gathering and taking over the protocol. Bitcoin whale will crush the SegWit2x coin and the miners will be forced to mine back into the real Bitcoin blockchain.

Any other outcome would mean that Bitcoin failed since it was took over by a couple idiots in suits lead by SegWit2x main dev and CIA agent Jeff Garzik.

Nice trolling.

How can you change fiat on ShapeShift?  How is Jeff a CIA agent and if so, who coder cares?
No this is about Bitcoin economy and miners will blow out the AXA suits leaving them with a slow chain.

Bitcoin is about scaling for all, how could you exclude people you dont like? Relax, they are about securing your bitcoins in exactly the decentralized manner it should be.

[kevpantof]

BitPay should be noticed when they have a say what 'users' want.
They stand for voice of a huge merchant community watching the usability and risks of bitcoin's protocol.

If they 'say' it will influence many other merchants accepting or thinking of bitcoin.

Their business suffers from too high fees and LN or other 2nd layer scalings are yet no or no quick, safe options.

What do you users really want? Alts taking over here?

That you’re making use of BitPay doesn’t mean that they’re going to be speaking for you in any situation, no, it’s all left for you. Users can even decide to leave any day, if they happen to come across a good wallet with far much better features.

[Iranus]

Here we could listen to CEO of ShapeShift

https://youtu.be/lFfTFQrQR5A

NYA will come...

NYA will fail, because BTC is not about a couple fiat corporations gathering and taking over the protocol.

This is about a change in consensus rules.  If you want to use that chain but don't like contributors to what we expect to be a SegWitx2 reference client, just run a different client which enforces those rules.

If you have any explanation for why the change in consensus rules results in "fiat corporations gathering and taking over the protocol", I'd love to hear it.  Right now it looks like you're talking out of your arse. 

Especially since ShapeShift doesn't even involve fiat in any way.

Any other outcome would mean that Bitcoin failed since it was took over by a couple idiots in suits lead by SegWit2x main dev and CIA agent Jeff Garzik.

If you actually understood how Bitcoin works, you'd understand that you can continue running old clients and enforcing the old consensus rules for as long as you like, so no one has forced you to do anything nor "changed" Bitcoin at all.

[fiomcorka]

BitPay should be noticed when they have a say what 'users' want.
They stand for voice of a huge merchant community watching the usability and risks of bitcoin's protocol.

If they 'say' it will influence many other merchants accepting or thinking of bitcoin.

Their business suffers from too high fees and LN or other 2nd layer scalings are yet no or no quick, safe options.

What do you users really want? Alts taking over here?

I guess that’s a great one at least bitcoin users can be assured that one day they would be able to pay for all their goods and services with the help of bitpay and other bitcoin payment processors, recently I was able to buy a domain with the help of bipay

[MinMan]

BitPay should be noticed when they have a say what 'users' want.
They stand for voice of a huge merchant community watching the usability and risks of bitcoin's protocol.

If they 'say' it will influence many other merchants accepting or thinking of bitcoin.

Their business suffers from too high fees and LN or other 2nd layer scalings are yet no or no quick, safe options.

What do you users really want? Alts taking over here?

I am very happy that BitPay started, with bitpay I have been able to pay for a lot of services and goods online that would have cost a lot of fortune in normal cash, but I was able to use my bitcoin earnings to pay. Thanks a lot.

[hv_]

BitPay should be noticed when they have a say what 'users' want.
They stand for voice of a huge merchant community watching the usability and risks of bitcoin's protocol.

If they 'say' it will influence many other merchants accepting or thinking of bitcoin.

Their business suffers from too high fees and LN or other 2nd layer scalings are yet no or no quick, safe options.

What do you users really want? Alts taking over here?

I am very happy that BitPay started, with bitpay I have been able to pay for a lot of services and goods online that would have cost a lot of fortune in normal cash, but I was able to use my bitcoin earnings to pay. Thanks a lot.

Yes, they helped a lot for the initial bootstrapping and bitcoin adoption at first place - real user case story (sadly I was also only watching and reading / playing a bit these times).

Now, some groups that have given up the mining tasks (for our all unsecurity), that would have really helped better decentralization if not, and now try to blame the left miners for too much centralization - leading to finally higher miner - collusion / meetings / agreements on software upgrades -  paradox.
And even worse try to break bitcoin with their wish list (mostly based on keepin up 'some' decentralization)  / but no real long-term investments behind.

Lots of games been played - not a boring time to be here.

[Karartma1]

hv_ all those games being played right now will determine the future of bitcoin (or the different bitcoins). I mean Bitpay cares about its business and will care about the most useful bitcoin protocol that will help them to best fit their current business model.
As a bitcoin user I must admit that Bitpay currently has one of the most user-friendly bitcoin wallet. Most of my firends/colleagues still use it because it gets the job done. In terms of bitcoin adoption I think that makes a difference.
We will see how this unfold

[hv_]

hv_ all those games being played right now will determine the future of bitcoin (or the different bitcoins). I mean Bitpay cares about its business and will care about the most useful bitcoin protocol that will help them to best fit their current business model.
As a bitcoin user I must admit that Bitpay currently has one of the most user-friendly bitcoin wallet. Most of my firends/colleagues still use it because it gets the job done. In terms of bitcoin adoption I think that makes a difference.
We will see how this unfold

Thx - you are absolutely right.

Most users are noobs and do not even care about tech and politics behind (Bitcoin) and just buy it like they buy the shiny new IPhone since these merchants (Apple & co) know how to design and sell it to the masses.

These bigs also take care about the risks (we can only hope they do not gain too much of bitcoin - but this is already hard by now) - Bitcoin has grown to this edge of adoption and I understand many 'users' not wanting this kind of adoption - but the ship has left - unstoppable.

Users: Relax and take your popcorn - or play big (start mining !).
Actions like ranting against others (with more stakes)  and fight stupid endless ideas does harm the reputation of bitcoin more than it achieves.
IMO it is all aligned due to the Nash equilibrium (yes it is oscillating and we see big amplitudes!)  - but it cannot fail - only be slowed down.

I also wonder, if this big noise we noticed all in these fights brought up the biggest ones now - like the PBoC -> Getting more into Bitcoin / licensing it ?

If we are aware of these effects, more silence could help in first place to evolve as far as possible before the big ones come in finally and take too big shares?

 

[Karartma1]

I’ve already wrote it but I really think we went back to 2014. I see the same patterns over and over again. In 2014 they invented the “blockchain” to spread FUD and false myths about bitcoin”. Now that everybody saw the bitcoin potential this is no longer something that they can support.
I work within this field and, trust me, with one face they talk blockchain and with the other they buy bitcoin (and other crypto).
Yes, let’s calm down while holding the keys

[hv_]

I’ve already wrote it but I really think we went back to 2014. I see the same patterns over and over again. In 2014 they invented the “blockchain” to spread FUD and false myths about bitcoin”. Now that everybody saw the bitcoin potential this is no longer something that they can support.
I work within this field and, trust me, with one face they talk blockchain and with the other they buy bitcoin (and other crypto).
Yes, let’s calm down while holding the keys

It's not that old, but I came to same results here:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1695006.msg17006113#msg17006113

 

[Karartma1]

Exactly! We saw that unfolding: it was way too clear after a while that the whole "blockchain" hype was there for a reason. It's still like that because now they talk about Distributed Ledger Technologies and such. They would like the "blockchain" to do everything is already possible with conventional technologies. They don't get what bitcoin is about: some of them know it and therefore they planted the blockchain seed

see you around