CoinGator

[ranlo]

Thanks Matthew! That's pretty crazy. If you're going to crowd-fund you pretty much have to get an accountant/lawyer involved, o.o. This means you lose a (possibly large) portion of the funds that are raised!

BTW, for anyone else who wants a tl;dr, check out this image below. The second column is the one that matters (and first so you know what it's referring to):

[crazylikeafox]

http://www.fincen.gov/financial_institutions/msb/msbstateselector.html

BitInstant is registered as a money services business. https://mega.co.nz/#!E99RzY6B!Mol5t0UtPPLb9epFgbgxrhojhfcrk41W51Bybp0YsXs

Do they hold individual state licenses as well?  If they did, why would they publish such statements about "acting as agents" of other state licensees?

[Matthew N. Wright]

http://www.fincen.gov/financial_institutions/msb/msbstateselector.html

BitInstant is registered as a money services business. https://mega.co.nz/#!E99RzY6B!Mol5t0UtPPLb9epFgbgxrhojhfcrk41W51Bybp0YsXs

Do they hold individual state licenses as well?  If they did, why would they publish such statements about "acting as agents" of other state licensees?

That is something you'd need to ask BitInstant. I am not affiliated with them.

[Cyberdyne]

Thanks for your efforts Matthew. I'm sure there are many newbies that have taken your words of warning seriously, despite not being able to post in this thread.

[ruggedman_dan]

crazylikeafox is 100% right. PayPal is not a bank in the US. In fact, they fight tooth and nail to NOT be regulated like a bank. They are not a gov't. entity either. Lying to them is totally legal as long as you are not getting the PP debit card involved (because that requires a SSN.) The topic of "stealth accounts" has been extensively studied before in other online communities.

As for what specific vcc's and vba's work, that varies all the time. What worked last year may not work now. Just gotta keep up with the developments.

[ranlo]

crazylikeafox is 100% right. PayPal is not a bank in the US. In fact, they fight tooth and nail to NOT be regulated like a bank. They are not a gov't. entity either. Lying to them is totally legal as long as you are not getting the PP debit card involved (because that requires a SSN.) The topic of "stealth accounts" has been extensively studied before in other online communities.

As for what specific vcc's and vba's work, that varies all the time. What worked last year may not work now. Just gotta keep up with the developments.

I wasn't aware of this. It would help explain why they screw over so many people though.

[Matthew N. Wright]

crazylikeafox is 100% right. PayPal is not a bank in the US. In fact, they fight tooth and nail to NOT be regulated like a bank. They are not a gov't. entity either. Lying to them is totally legal as long as you are not getting the PP debit card involved (because that requires a SSN.) The topic of "stealth accounts" has been extensively studied before in other online communities.

As for what specific vcc's and vba's work, that varies all the time. What worked last year may not work now. Just gotta keep up with the developments.

I wasn't aware of this. It would help explain why they screw over so many people though.

With bounds of class action lawsuits against them, all settled out of court to avoid being shut down. (pro-tip: Don't settle or be a part of a class action suit because it skirts judgements and keeps you from suing them again when they do the same thing in the future)

[ranlo]

crazylikeafox is 100% right. PayPal is not a bank in the US. In fact, they fight tooth and nail to NOT be regulated like a bank. They are not a gov't. entity either. Lying to them is totally legal as long as you are not getting the PP debit card involved (because that requires a SSN.) The topic of "stealth accounts" has been extensively studied before in other online communities.

As for what specific vcc's and vba's work, that varies all the time. What worked last year may not work now. Just gotta keep up with the developments.

I wasn't aware of this. It would help explain why they screw over so many people though.

With bounds of class action lawsuits against them, all settled out of court to avoid being shut down. (pro-tip: Don't settle or be a part of a class action suit because it skirts judgements and keeps you from suing them again when they do the same thing in the future)

I haven't seen anything about class actions against them, o.o.

And I don't think that being part of one (or accepting a settlement) allows them to re-commit the crime in the future. The same way you can't use someone's past as, say a scammer, in court against them to prove they are scamming again.

[Matthew N. Wright]

crazylikeafox is 100% right. PayPal is not a bank in the US. In fact, they fight tooth and nail to NOT be regulated like a bank. They are not a gov't. entity either. Lying to them is totally legal as long as you are not getting the PP debit card involved (because that requires a SSN.) The topic of "stealth accounts" has been extensively studied before in other online communities.

As for what specific vcc's and vba's work, that varies all the time. What worked last year may not work now. Just gotta keep up with the developments.

I wasn't aware of this. It would help explain why they screw over so many people though.

With bounds of class action lawsuits against them, all settled out of court to avoid being shut down. (pro-tip: Don't settle or be a part of a class action suit because it skirts judgements and keeps you from suing them again when they do the same thing in the future)

I haven't seen anything about class actions against them, o.o.

And I don't think that being part of one (or accepting a settlement) allows them to re-commit the crime in the future. The same way you can't use someone's past as, say a scammer, in court against them to prove they are scamming again.

http://paypalsucks.com

[ranlo]

crazylikeafox is 100% right. PayPal is not a bank in the US. In fact, they fight tooth and nail to NOT be regulated like a bank. They are not a gov't. entity either. Lying to them is totally legal as long as you are not getting the PP debit card involved (because that requires a SSN.) The topic of "stealth accounts" has been extensively studied before in other online communities.

As for what specific vcc's and vba's work, that varies all the time. What worked last year may not work now. Just gotta keep up with the developments.

I wasn't aware of this. It would help explain why they screw over so many people though.

With bounds of class action lawsuits against them, all settled out of court to avoid being shut down. (pro-tip: Don't settle or be a part of a class action suit because it skirts judgements and keeps you from suing them again when they do the same thing in the future)

I haven't seen anything about class actions against them, o.o.

And I don't think that being part of one (or accepting a settlement) allows them to re-commit the crime in the future. The same way you can't use someone's past as, say a scammer, in court against them to prove they are scamming again.

http://paypalsucks.com

I've been to that site before, long ago, but only read articles from others detailing their experience. Just saw the lawsuit page!

http://www.screw-paypal.com/paypal_lawsuits.html

Reading through that... they were somehow found "not guilty" of any of the things they were sued for. I don't see HOW.

[sockopen]

Here's a great deal! Price 15 BTC

The coingator.com domain, scripting, etc. will be included with the sale. A fully functional BTC > PayPal exchange.

http://www.coingator.com

What kind of traffic / money did you guys get while you were open?

[naphto]

Why did you close?

[ranlo]

Why did you close?

Issues with being able to run the business legally in the US (and therefore problems with Paypal). I'm wondering if people outside the US would have the same problems though...?

[naphto]

Depends what is the exact issue with paypal. But probably fine outside US.

[ranlo]

Depends what is the exact issue with paypal. But probably fine outside US.

The problem is that PayPal says if you trade BTC for fiat or fiat for BTC, you have to register as a money transmitter (which was estimated at $250k earlier in this thread).

[gektek]

Depends what is the exact issue with paypal. But probably fine outside US.

The problem is that PayPal says if you trade BTC for fiat or fiat for BTC, you have to register as a money transmitter (which was estimated at $250k earlier in this thread).

I don't think it was PayPal that says you need to register as a money transmitter...its just the general law...that you need to register as a money transmitter...PayPal doesn't really care one way or the other. I thought the $250k was just for the fees to become a 'transmitter'...? But maybe I read it wrong earlier...?

[ranlo]

Depends what is the exact issue with paypal. But probably fine outside US.

The problem is that PayPal says if you trade BTC for fiat or fiat for BTC, you have to register as a money transmitter (which was estimated at $250k earlier in this thread).

I don't think it was PayPal that says you need to register as a money transmitter...its just the general law...that you need to register as a money transmitter...PayPal doesn't really care one way or the other. I thought the $250k was just for the fees to become a 'transmitter'...? But maybe I read it wrong earlier...?

There was a post on Reddit that came from a PP employee showing that they are told to ban/deactivate accounts that are allowing BTC -> fiat -> BTC trades without a proper transmitter license. I don't know where it is off the top of my head but someone else might.

[Matthew N. Wright]

Depends what is the exact issue with paypal. But probably fine outside US.

The problem is that PayPal says if you trade BTC for fiat or fiat for BTC, you have to register as a money transmitter (which was estimated at $250k earlier in this thread).

I don't think it was PayPal that says you need to register as a money transmitter...its just the general law...that you need to register as a money transmitter...PayPal doesn't really care one way or the other. I thought the $250k was just for the fees to become a 'transmitter'...? But maybe I read it wrong earlier...?

There was a post on Reddit that came from a PP employee showing that they are told to ban/deactivate accounts that are allowing BTC -> fiat -> BTC trades without a proper transmitter license. I don't know where it is off the top of my head but someone else might.

Those "I got an email from.." posts cannot be verified an attempts to do so are ignored usually so take those with a grain of salt and don't assume they are legit.

[ranlo]

Depends what is the exact issue with paypal. But probably fine outside US.

The problem is that PayPal says if you trade BTC for fiat or fiat for BTC, you have to register as a money transmitter (which was estimated at $250k earlier in this thread).

I don't think it was PayPal that says you need to register as a money transmitter...its just the general law...that you need to register as a money transmitter...PayPal doesn't really care one way or the other. I thought the $250k was just for the fees to become a 'transmitter'...? But maybe I read it wrong earlier...?

There was a post on Reddit that came from a PP employee showing that they are told to ban/deactivate accounts that are allowing BTC -> fiat -> BTC trades without a proper transmitter license. I don't know where it is off the top of my head but someone else might.

Those "I got an email from.." posts cannot be verified an attempts to do so are ignored usually so take those with a grain of salt and don't assume they are legit.

Oh, it was a scanned document that was supposedly passed down to employees... could still be faked but never know.

[gektek]

There was a post on Reddit that came from a PP employee showing that they are told to ban/deactivate accounts that are allowing BTC -> fiat -> BTC trades without a proper transmitter license. I don't know where it is off the top of my head but someone else might.

ooo ic ic...ty ty!