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Author Topic: Religious beliefs on bitcoin  (Read 22247 times)
pwi
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May 26, 2013, 06:16:57 AM
 #141

Many fundamental religious folks thought that barcodes were to be the mark of the beast. Then it was the magnetic strips in credit cards. Smart cards were the next logical step for those preaching the times of Revelation were upon us. Not many modern Christians believe that any of those things are devilish and make use of them daily without fear of being cast from Heaven.    



That said,  I do think that many Christians will be opposed to using Bitcoin out of fear but I feel strongly that Christians should be more interested in it than anyone.  There might come a day when it will become difficult to buy and sell anonymously (when we are forced to have a number on our hands or heads) and then Bitcoin could be very useful.

Personally, I have posted this already but will reiterate, I think that Bitcoin will succeed and because of that governments will lose "control" and that will force them to do something drastic.  Perhaps the "drastic" thing will be a mark on each person to keep track of who is buying and selling?  It is certainly something to think about.

I'm a Christian by faith, but it is just that; faith...Blind and absent any logical foundation. It's merely an algorithmic salad bowl present in my mind alone;  derived from being born at the time I was born, in the western hemisphere, raised by the parents I'm forced to claim, and ultimately my own choice. It is a choice that is neither popular with fellow Christians because of my interpretations, nor non-Christians because my faith is in fact 'silly'.

I am intelligent enough to accept that that my blind faith is indeed blind. My day to day decisions are guided by principles outside of this faith. However, my morality is dictated by it. You could even say that I'm not good enough absent this illogical faith to behave in a moral way otherwise.

The principles of Christianity permeate most religious doctrine and visa versa. Scripture indicates that Christ was here from the beginning and was and is present in cultures still unaware of men in shiny suits that will be passing plates this morning to pay for big houses and nice automobiles. Dismissing other cultures, religions, beliefs, other than ones' own is indeed anti-Christian. Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, and most world religions share foundation principles with Christianity. I choose to study and practice them all while viewing through this lens and a spirit of love and acceptance of all that contain some truth.   

I completely agree with the portion of your post that I have quoted. Christians should be most aware and most accepting of Bitcoin for the very reasons you mentioned; whether I agree with them or not. Most fundamental Christians are innately stupid/ignorant. I'm almost embarrassed to align myself with the modern perception of Christianity. My personal program does not align with them.   

Religious affiliation or not; I will not be accepting any government mandate or mark. Most bitcoiners would fall into this category by mere nature and desire for independence from oppression.

I am certain that if 10% of any congregation insisted on tithing in bitcoins this morning; that the Southern Baptist Convention et al would come out with an overwhelming statement of support of Bitcoin in the coming days. Money drives the church like most other endeavors. Fool yourself into thinking otherwise if you wish, but you would be wrong in so doing.       

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May 26, 2013, 06:26:47 AM
 #142


There you go putting religious texts into historical and logical perspective. This just doesn't make much sense to the target audience - the religious fundamentalist.

The locusts are coming (http://www.cicadamania.com/where.html) in the same year that Bitcoin is on an astronomical trajectory in both value and adoption. I scare. You scare?

Sarcasm off.

Religious zealots, Bitcoin zealots... Roll Eyes

Count me in as a Bitcoin zealot. At the very least, one that choses to capitalize on the zealot nature of Bitcoin 'followers'. 

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May 26, 2013, 06:32:56 AM
 #143

lol religion. What is this, year 2?

Time is an illusion of human device. Religion (also an illusion) gives those without reason a lens with which to view their surroundings and examine their inner selves, myself included. The absence of faith is indeed faith.

Spirituality is real regardless of one's failure to recognize it. 

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May 26, 2013, 06:34:59 AM
 #144

I thought you were going to mention how Muslims can only use certain forex brokers for some weird fucking reason.

The "weird fucking reason" being: making money from money is considered haram (sinful) in Islam. Which is exactly why the Islamic Bank of Bitcoin doesn't take interest.

So on one hand Islam is a logical friend of bitcoin, due to the whole "deconstructing traditional banking" thing.

On the other hand Islam is a logical enemy of bitcoinERS, due to the... just look at the marketplace and you'll get it.

On a happier note, lending at a profit is perfectly fine for Christians ... as long as they don't bother reading the Bible:

If thou lend money to any of my people with thee that is poor, thou shalt not be to him as a creditor; neither shall ye lay upon him interest. Exodus 22:25, American Standard translation (to avoid archaic use of usury In KJV) Shocked



I <3 this.


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May 26, 2013, 06:42:39 AM
 #145

I have seen this Bible quote many times, and first started thinking about it in detail many years ago, well before the Internet was a possibility.

"And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name." (Revelation 13:16-17)

At that time, I could conceive of NO POSSIBLE WAY that someone could be prevented from trading by a mark on their hand or forehead. The very idea was absurd! Who would possibly accept all the massive social changes that would be required to make that happen? I was firmly in the midsts of a certain counter-culture of the late 70's, and it was inconceivable to me that ANY determined individual could be prevent from trading, by any government. Simply put, in the late 70's, this could not POSSIBLY have happened.

Now, here we are in the 21st. century. The world has changed in fundamental ways that no one could predict. Information on any topic is instantly available at one's fingertips. Financial transactions that used to take days now clear in seconds.

I don't think there is a single person reading this forum that would argue the possibility that one could eventually be denied the means to trade. Yes, there is the possibility of one world currency that could require significant identification to spend. Or one could be denied the chance to buy things simply by denying them access to certain technology. There are any number of minor, incremental developments that could be used to prevent certain people to trade. Some people already do transactions at POS systems that just require them to swipe a RFID near the terminal. From there, how big a jump is it to a place where all our spending can be controlled by the government?

The Bible can be interpreted in many ways, and is often quoted/mis-quoted to one's advantage. But I have to say this:

The idea of one central way to control or prevent ALL purchases by a particular individual seems MUCH more likely to me now than it did back in the old "sex, drugs, and rock-n-roll" days.

Christianity was a radical and liberal notion at its inception. The Bible contains a good deal of both wisdom and historical context relevant still in modern times.

Long live sex, drugs, and rock-n-roll...and Bitcoin. It may be all we have left.

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pwi
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May 26, 2013, 06:46:54 AM
 #146

Religious zealots, Bitcoin zealots... Roll Eyes
Yeah, the convergence between those two groups is uncanny.

Immediately after I joined the forum I was struck by how oftern the people professing themselves atheist/agnostic kept slipping into using the theological phraseology.

After a while I seem to recognize the similarities in motivation: both groups seem unsecure and search for a stable foundation.

The first group tends to find them in the Bible, the second in the limit of 21 000 000 coins. Both call them "set in stone", although the stone is just a language: Aramaic/Greek/Hebrew in the first case, C++ in the second.

I'm going to insert the following quote just because it is a nice mixture of being both succint and sarcastic.
I'm more concerned with the religion OF bitcoin.  Their are FAR too many people who have near apocalyptic visions of how BTC will transform the world and bring torment an damnation upon governments, banks, Keynesians and everyone who has ever mocked them.  While the BTCers will be enraptured in wealth and splendor and rule the world at the right-hand of Satoshi.  Sound familiar???

And since this is weekend I can post relevant Youtube links:

Tribulation by Dennis Brown

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUD91sG3Ut0

Tribulation by Ras Nyto

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVG_OLd6upo

Both links are reggae, but different songs.

Badass! Thank you.

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May 26, 2013, 12:14:24 PM
 #147

btw how's that for a hidden 666 in plain sight  Shocked


https://localbitcoins.com/?ch=80k | BTC: 1LJvmd1iLi199eY7EVKtNQRW3LqZi8ZmmB
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May 26, 2013, 01:17:30 PM
 #148

Time is an illusion of human device a relative concept, backed by math, and grounded in science, being one of three fundamental components that make up all matter in existence. Religion (also an illusion) gives those without reason a lens with which to view their surroundings and examine their inner selves too lazy to think and learn, a convenient, simple, happy story, which can be summarized as "God did it," and be used as an excuse from having to figure out what happened and from taking responsibility for one's own life. The absence of faith is indeed faith simply growing up and putting the children's stories behind us.

I wonder if pwi believes that one needs faith to not believe in unicorns and Harry Potter...

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May 26, 2013, 01:29:06 PM
 #149

btw how's that for a hidden 666 in plain sight  Shocked



same as the google symbol

Satanists  Sad(

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May 26, 2013, 02:07:58 PM
 #150

I am certain that if 10% of any congregation insisted on tithing in bitcoins this morning; that the Southern Baptist Convention et al would come out with an overwhelming statement of support of Bitcoin in the coming days. Money drives the church like most other endeavors. Fool yourself into thinking otherwise if you wish, but you would be wrong in so doing.       

This made me laugh out loud.  It is sad but probably true.   Roll Eyes



1BitcHiCK1iRa6YVY6qDqC6M594RBYLNPo
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May 26, 2013, 05:01:02 PM
 #151

Pray one little prayer: "God if you are real, show yourself to me."
It sound simple, yet so many people I talk to are unwilling to do that one simple little thing.

That's because it is a known waste of time, and possibly the most arrogant thing a human could do, asking a god to change its plans for the universe simply to satiate your desire.


They might have to admit that there is a God and that they do not have it all figured out.  That is not even worth the risk of praying one little prayer so they laugh at me and say I am stupid and go on.

No one can "admit there's a god" because no one knows if there is a supernatural creator, ever, whether your wishes are granted or not. You are speaking of knowledge on a topic that can at best only ever be spoken of within the realm of belief.

I wouldn't say you're stupid. Some very intelligent people believe in ridiculous things for all kinds of reasons. As humans we are susceptible to it for many reasons. We seek pattern and reason and comfort. Some people still cast bones or read animal entrails; many still believe in birthdates as somehow significant when it is plainly known our own current calendars are skewed from any known original birth signs. People are easily fooled, even skeptics can be. We believe what we think we see even knowing our eyes can be fooled.

While I wouldn't say you're stupid, I would say you simply need to critically evaluate your beliefs. You said you're here to invest (make money). This doesn't jibe with your religion...

"Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God."
Matthew 19:24

"Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."
Matthew 19:21

Note that no where in the Bible does Jesus say it's a great idea to multiply your money via bitcoins, and in fact

Now the typical answer here is for a religious person to tell us all that we're "interpreting it wrong" or some such, however there is no end to interpretation. You either believe the Bible and each word in it is at least a teaching lesson of your god (if not an outright commandment), or you believe it should be interpreted. If it can be interpreted then any interpretation is as good as another since they are all humanly fallible. If it shouldn't be interpreted then you have a busy week ahead of you as you have many people that need killing as outlined in the bible, such as homosexuals, people who wear the wrong clothing, or generally anyone that doesn't think like you; for an added bonus you can begin selling your own children into slavery.

There's nothing wrong with making money, and it's nice to be nice, but you don't need an ancient book written by violent Bronze Age goat herders (with the average smarts of a current day 6th-grader) to tell you how to live.
 


So, it looks like a "6" and there are three of them and they are on every single bar code.

And yet, one can easily find that your belief is factually wrong. Here's another:
http://www.virtualsalt.com/barcode.htm


These are things that might cause someone to think there is some truth there.

Not someone who takes 10 minutes to google it and read a few articles. You can find articles telling you the myth is true "because I believe it might be" and you can find articles showing you, with verifiable proof, that the myth is simply superstition. The only reason why the answer isn't obvious to you after those 10 minutes is because the reality of it begins to chip away at the inextricable maze of delusion which religion demands of an individual. That humming in your brain is called cognitive dissonance.


Revelation said it needed to be "Calculated".  I calculate that there are three hidden sixes on bar codes.  Of course, people do not want to believe it.  I know most will be perfectly fine putting a bar code on their hands and foreheads and will say some Christians are crazy for not doing it.  But I am just saying it is something to think about.  You don't have to agree with me.

The entire bible is a fraud. It contains as much fact as does The Lord of The Rings. There isn't a good reason for wasting another moment of your life being conned by it.

Here's some other peyote-inspired things Revelation says:

1) 1:3 "Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand."

In other words, John believed Jesus would return in his lifetime. Only Christian loons, practicing poor reading and critical thinking skills 2000 years later, somehow believe this to have been extended for millennia.

2) 2:12 "And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges;"
2:13 "I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth."

Satan lives in the town of Pergamos. One would think the U.S. could send in Seal Team 6 if this were the case.

3) 4:6 "And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind."
4:7 "And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle."
4:8 "And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, LORD God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come."

LOL... evidently John has made use of the Silk Road.

Of course, there's much more absurdity but I guess it wouldn't help. If you're going to buy such absurdity then it really doesn't matter if the absurdity is pointed out to you.

I was having a similar discussion with another adherent a few months ago who was adamant that recent NASA photos of the sun confirmed we're in End Times because there were swirls on the surface which looked to him like "sackcloth of hair", even though the sun was not black and even though the moon was not red (other biblical requirements). You will see what you want to see.

I used to day trade Bitcoin successfully. Then I took an arrow to the knee.
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May 26, 2013, 05:41:45 PM
 #152

Pray one little prayer: "God if you are real, show yourself to me."
It sound simple, yet so many people I talk to are unwilling to do that one simple little thing.

That's because it is a known waste of time, and possibly the most arrogant thing a human could do, asking a god to change its plans for the universe simply to satiate your desire.


They might have to admit that there is a God and that they do not have it all figured out.  That is not even worth the risk of praying one little prayer so they laugh at me and say I am stupid and go on.

No one can "admit there's a god" because no one knows if there is a supernatural creator, ever, whether your wishes are granted or not. You are speaking of knowledge on a topic that can at best only ever be spoken of within the realm of belief.

I wouldn't say you're stupid. Some very intelligent people believe in ridiculous things for all kinds of reasons. As humans we are susceptible to it for many reasons. We seek pattern and reason and comfort. Some people still cast bones or read animal entrails; many still believe in birthdates as somehow significant when it is plainly known our own current calendars are skewed from any known original birth signs. People are easily fooled, even skeptics can be. We believe what we think we see even knowing our eyes can be fooled.

While I wouldn't say you're stupid, I would say you simply need to critically evaluate your beliefs. You said you're here to invest (make money). This doesn't jibe with your religion...

"Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God."
Matthew 19:24

"Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."
Matthew 19:21

Note that no where in the Bible does Jesus say it's a great idea to multiply your money via bitcoins, and in fact

Now the typical answer here is for a religious person to tell us all that we're "interpreting it wrong" or some such, however there is no end to interpretation. You either believe the Bible and each word in it is at least a teaching lesson of your god (if not an outright commandment), or you believe it should be interpreted. If it can be interpreted then any interpretation is as good as another since they are all humanly fallible. If it shouldn't be interpreted then you have a busy week ahead of you as you have many people that need killing as outlined in the bible, such as homosexuals, people who wear the wrong clothing, or generally anyone that doesn't think like you; for an added bonus you can begin selling your own children into slavery.

There's nothing wrong with making money, and it's nice to be nice, but you don't need an ancient book written by violent Bronze Age goat herders (with the average smarts of a current day 6th-grader) to tell you how to live.
 


So, it looks like a "6" and there are three of them and they are on every single bar code.

And yet, one can easily find that your belief is factually wrong. Here's another:
http://www.virtualsalt.com/barcode.htm


These are things that might cause someone to think there is some truth there.

Not someone who takes 10 minutes to google it and read a few articles. You can find articles telling you the myth is true "because I believe it might be" and you can find articles showing you, with verifiable proof, that the myth is simply superstition. The only reason why the answer isn't obvious to you after those 10 minutes is because the reality of it begins to chip away at the inextricable maze of delusion which religion demands of an individual. That humming in your brain is called cognitive dissonance.


Revelation said it needed to be "Calculated".  I calculate that there are three hidden sixes on bar codes.  Of course, people do not want to believe it.  I know most will be perfectly fine putting a bar code on their hands and foreheads and will say some Christians are crazy for not doing it.  But I am just saying it is something to think about.  You don't have to agree with me.

The entire bible is a fraud. It contains as much fact as does The Lord of The Rings. There isn't a good reason for wasting another moment of your life being conned by it.

Here's some other peyote-inspired things Revelation says:

1) 1:3 "Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand."

In other words, John believed Jesus would return in his lifetime. Only Christian loons, practicing poor reading and critical thinking skills 2000 years later, somehow believe this to have been extended for millennia.

2) 2:12 "And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges;"
2:13 "I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth."

Satan lives in the town of Pergamos. One would think the U.S. could send in Seal Team 6 if this were the case.

3) 4:6 "And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind."
4:7 "And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle."
4:8 "And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, LORD God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come."

LOL... evidently John has made use of the Silk Road.

Of course, there's much more absurdity but I guess it wouldn't help. If you're going to buy such absurdity then it really doesn't matter if the absurdity is pointed out to you.

I was having a similar discussion with another adherent a few months ago who was adamant that recent NASA photos of the sun confirmed we're in End Times because there were swirls on the surface which looked to him like "sackcloth of hair", even though the sun was not black and even though the moon was not red (other biblical requirements). You will see what you want to see.

no need to get mad

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May 26, 2013, 05:49:02 PM
 #153

By grace we are saved, and not by works.

Not a single one of us is saved in Christian sense. There is no Heaven, and if there were no one could live up to what the bible and its purported supernatural author commands in order to gain entry. The religion is tailored to make sins of the many things we all do so that one is perpetually in need of "forgiveness" and therefore bound to a need of the church (at 10% of one's life earnings).


Through faith in jesus christ, we are saved from the judgment of the law.

Jesus Christ likely never even existed. The bible is a collection of stolen, modified, pre-fabricated myths and forgeries about a non-existent deity. You don't have to be afraid. You do not need religion.


The wages of sin is death.

I'm going to need empirical evidence for this claim. It sounds fishy to me.


But Jesus Paid the price on our behalf.

What price did anyone ask him to pay? If you believe in the christian god and hell then there is no question this masochist sends people to hell if they don't play his game properly.

Just like Jigsaw from the movie Saw, god supposedly puts a game in motion, forcing people to choose his way or torture. While the poor cattle in the movie indeed get to "exercise free will" they've still been bound into a game against their choice, then forced to play by its rules.

And you call this god a loving god... lol.. He's a horror movie monster.


God accepted Jesus sacrifice, and there is no longer anything owing.

You mean Jesus accepted Jesus sacrifice? Or is it that the Holy Ghost accepted god's sacrifice, or maybe some other. This whole "I'm going to pretend my god is a three-for-one deal so no one can say Christianity is polytheistic" is pretty irrational. But that's religion for you.

And beyond this, how anyone sees perpetrating human sacrifice as virtuous is incomprehensibly twisted. You're dancing in glee over human sacrifice. That you can't see your own ignorant sickness, and further find it "morally positive," is a marvel.

If you buy the bullsh<b></b>it of Christianity, Jesus was not a very good sacrifice. For crying out loud, god sent himself as Jesus. What kind of sacrifice is that? He knew he'd live forever in heaven and "be reunited with himself". His death on earth means nothing. He knew he was eternal. Since he was a god he could easily just pop out another son if he needed to. It was no sacrifice at all. If your God exists he is laughing at your ignorance, probably kicked back watching ESPN and having a beer, still giggling away at his sheep.


We are now free to live our lives, so as unto God.

Free? Where is your freedom? He's given you a book of rules and if you don't follow it he sends you to his eternal concentration camp beside beautiful Lake Fire.

The Christian god has the same traits as an abusive partner:
 • you have to fear him to receive his love
 • you are unworthy of his love
 • you are nothing without him
 • if you do not love him he will hurt you
 • he doesn't WANT to punish you – it's really your fault
 • he threatens you if he thinks you might break things off
 • at all times he needs to know where you are, what you're doing and thinking so he can control your thoughts and behavior
 • doesn't want you to get an education because you'll realize you don't need him anymore and break up
 • worst of all, you have to bring him beer and a sammich when he yells for it (OK maybe this one is a stretch)


Therefore we pray in the name of Jesus Christ, Imanuel, Lamb of God, Annointed Savior, King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

Why so many names? Gee, it's almost like he's a criminal in need of pseudonyms.

While we're on the topic, why does Matthew 1:23 say "The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel" and yet he is not named Immanuel? Can't god's own book of rules predict his only son's name correctly? What a blunder! Kinda takes the wind right out of the whole "prophecy" game folks like to play with ye olde goat herder manual.


And we give thanks to God. Smiley

That "we" is dwindling, thankfully.

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May 26, 2013, 05:51:38 PM
 #154

Time is an illusion of human device. Religion (also an illusion) gives those without reason a lens with which to view their surroundings and examine their inner selves, myself included. The absence of faith is indeed faith.
Spirituality is real regardless of one's failure to recognize it. 

Mankind's entire pantheon, including Jesus son of god and the Abrahamic god itself, never existed. All religion is a fraud. Calling beliefs "unaffiliated spirituality" or other hogwash, while still holding out for some sort of pseudo-christian being or afterlife, does not help one dodge this bullet. If you suffer from a brand of the delusion that holds any of it as "reality," it is no less crazy than any other.

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May 26, 2013, 05:54:02 PM
 #155

All religion is a fraud child abuse-induced PSTD.
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May 26, 2013, 06:02:01 PM
 #156

Yep, we've been there about half a century ago.  Thanks to the tremendous technological advances over the past 44 years, NASA is currently pulling 40-yr-old rocket motors out of mothballs in hopes of duplicating that magnificent accomplishment ... sometime.  Maybe.  Unfortunately Wernher von Braun (who was in no way a Nazi y'all, well maybe the tiniest little bit, does being SS-Sturmbannführer even count?) won't take us there this time around, he's dead. RIP.

For those not familiar with the true father of American rocketry, this world-renowned rocketeer is best known for his visionary V2 (Vergeltungswaffe 2 -- Vengeance Weapon 2).  This engineering tour de force provided plenty much-needed lulz to the bored civilians fortunate enough to experience this exploding marvel first hand. 

After the war, grateful America scooped up bits & pieces of V-2s {which were built in underground factories by slave labour), along with grinning Von Braun & his team of merry pranksters.  V-2 became our beloved Saturn, and its creator & co -- the brains & guts of NASA.  And yes, the engine NASA's pulling out of the mothballs?  It's THAT engine.

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May 26, 2013, 06:38:35 PM
 #157

Yep, we've been there about half a century ago.  Thanks to the tremendous technological advances over the past 44 years, NASA is currently pulling 40-yr-old rocket motors out of mothballs in hopes of duplicating that magnificent accomplishment ... sometime.  Maybe.  Unfortunately Wernher von Braun (who was in no way a Nazi y'all, well maybe the tiniest little bit, does being SS-Sturmbannführer even count?) won't take us there this time around, he's dead. RIP.

For those not familiar with the true father of American rocketry, this world-renowned rocketeer is best known for his visionary V2 (Vergeltungswaffe 2 -- Vengeance Weapon 2).  This engineering tour de force provided plenty much-needed lulz to the bored civilians fortunate enough to experience this exploding marvel first hand. 

After the war, grateful America scooped up bits & pieces of V-2s {which were built in underground factories by slave labour), along with grinning Von Braun & his team of merry pranksters.  V-2 became our beloved Saturn, and its creator & co -- the brains & guts of NASA.  And yes, the engine NASA's pulling out of the mothballs?  It's THAT engine.

Glad you like my posts, but...  not sure what your point is Huh
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May 26, 2013, 08:42:23 PM
Last edit: May 28, 2013, 02:16:50 AM by BitChick
 #158

Time is an illusion of human device. Religion (also an illusion) gives those without reason a lens with which to view their surroundings and examine their inner selves, myself included. The absence of faith is indeed faith.
Spirituality is real regardless of one's failure to recognize it.  

Mankind's entire pantheon, including Jesus son of god and the Abrahamic god itself, never existed. All religion is a fraud. Calling beliefs "unaffiliated spirituality" or other hogwash, while still holding out for some sort of pseudo-christian being or afterlife, does not help one dodge this bullet. If you suffer from a brand of the delusion that holds any of it as "reality," it is no less crazy than any other.

KeyserSoze,  you seem to have much "faith" that you are right and that all religion is fraud.  Can you really be 100% sure you are right?  What if you are wrong?  That seems very risky to me to put so much faith in not believing.  It seems rather empty to me as well.  What is the point to life then?  I suppose that survival of the fittest is the main point?  Getting as much as you can here on earth before you die?

I honestly am curious what your thoughts are on that.  It is always interesting to see what other people's philosophies are.  Usually they have good reasons for what they believe.  Also, it seems that many atheists are incredibly intelligent people. (most have a much higher IQ then I do it seems I have been considered "gifted")  I think the problem is that they are "too smart" sometimes though.  They cannot understand God and faith with their logical minds.  Although I feel that I have studied and found there is much truth that backs up the Bible (historical and archeological evidence) there is a point in which it takes faith.  That is the hard part for so many people.  But the Bible predicts that without the Holy Spirit drawing them, people cannot see the truth.  So who is really blind?  There are so many verses that talk about how, before accepting Christ through faith, we were once blind but now we see.  I can say there is definitely truth in that in my own life for sure!

And yes, in a way bitcoin or the chasing of money and possessions can be a problem.  Money can be the source of many evils.  However, money or bitcoin can be used for much good in the world too, if one is willing to share it.  So, in itself, having wealth makes it difficult to serve God because the person can be too attached to money and not care about the more important things.  But with God, all things are possible:  Even a rich man entering the kingdom of heaven.  Wink

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May 26, 2013, 09:06:14 PM
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I don't believe that something is in control of this mess. My father used to go to church every Sunday morning and was at the bar carousing every Saturday night. His favorite saying was, "as long as I don't die between Saturday night and Sunday morning when I get forgiven then I'm goin to heaven." I guess a one in seven chance of going to heaven is good odds but that type of hypocrisy keeps me from believing in any of it.

I do believe that Jesus walked on water though - I just kind of figured it was winter.

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May 26, 2013, 10:49:23 PM
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KeyserSoze,  you seem to have much "faith" that you are right and that all religion is fraud.  Can you really be 100% sure you are right? 

One chooses to live by fact and reason, or one chooses superstition. There is no faith involved in the assumption gravity will continue to work tomorrow. It is a fact within our shared reality, as much as we can have constants without devolving into a semantic argument over whether the existence of gravity is a fact.


What if you are wrong?  That seems very risky to me to put so much faith in not believing.

Known as Pascal's Wager, an inelegant and possibly immoral argument for conversion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_Wager

It's inelegant because it's one of the first arguments an adherent makes in the sheepish defense of something he doesn't strongly believe in himself. It is immoral only because religion generally considers gambling so, and Pascal's Wager is essentially that an adherent has whittled his reason for faith down to a wager.

Do you realize that based on your own argument of risk, you personally should subscribe to every religion on the planet? What if any one of them is "right" and Christianity is "wrong"? Quick, you better get started joining them all.

You realize that picking just one from the world's thousands of religions gives you only a tiny percentage chance of being "right", and that for most people the choice of religion wasn't even really a choice but simply the one obvious option provided to him by virtue of the family he was born into and ever since conditioned to believe in it?

Some others may actually have chosen another religion at an age when he could make a conscious choice but that usually boils down to a preference over rules of one faith or another, or simply not finding like-minded people at one church or another. Neither of these seem a wise choice when dealing with gods since when will a god care if you prefer his rules or the sheep in his flock.



It seems rather empty to me as well.  What is the point to life then?  I suppose that survival of the fittest is the main point?  Getting as much as you can here on earth before you die?

That is one of the saddest and yet most common retorts an atheist hears from the religious. You're basically admitting that without god you personally find life empty. The people, the family, the fun and adventure, the challenges even, that bright summer day when you were 12 and could run forever and never get tired, the birth of one's child, the majesty of the night sky or a pink/orange sunrise, a wonderful trip to a foreign country, the wonder of nature, whatever rocks your boat; none of it means anything unless some reward is waiting for you?

If there is a point to life it can only be to have experienced life. Beyond that any point is only what we arbitrarily assign based on our own superstitions, goals, and prejudices.


I think the problem is that [atheists] are "too smart" sometimes though.  They cannot understand God and faith with their logical minds. 

The history of our world has been filled with ignorant (occasionally well-intentioned) guesses about how the world works and the only way we've begun to sort things out is through evidence derived from the scientific method. Without this evidence a guess remains so, and it holds as much weight as any other guess. The chance that the god of Abraham exists is equal to the chance that Leprechauns have buried pots of gold under my lawn. We have empirical evidence for neither.

Atheists do understand gods and faith. They are antiquated notions of an ignorance that the world is slowly rising above.


Although I feel that I have studied and found there is much truth that backs up the Bible (historical and archeological evidence) there is a point in which it takes faith.

There is ZERO archaeological evidence that the bible holds any more truth than a good Stephen King novel. As for historical, perhaps, insomuch as someone added likely embellished historical events of note into it. Even if the bible is filled with writings about actual events or existing cities it doesn't mean any of the details are true, or further, that it has anything at all to do with the existence of a god.

When adherents speak about "archaeological evidence" they'll say things like, "well, we have archaeological evidence Egypt existed and still exists and the bible talks about an Exodus from Egypt." Something along those lines, or perhaps David and Solomon. It's grasping at straws. The Spiderman comic book is set in New York; New York exists, therefore Spiderman is real?

You are correct about one thing: faith. In the face of zero empirical evidence blind faith is all that's left, which is why the church and bible went out of its way to teach that faith is a virtue.


There are so many verses that talk about how, before accepting Christ through faith, we were once blind but now we see.  I can say there is definitely truth in that in my own life for sure!

Bad news; the Ophthalmologist called: you need glasses.


And yes, in a way bitcoin or the chasing of money and possessions can be a problem.  Money can be the source of many evils.  However, money or bitcoin can be used for much good in the world too, if one is willing to share it.  So, in itself, having wealth makes it difficult to serve God because the person can be too attached to money and not care about the more important things.  But with God, all things are possible:  Even a rich man entering the kingdom of heaven.  Wink

This is only an attempt to shoehorn your personal goals into religion. Textbook hypocrisy. Your god has COMMANDED you through the bible to give all your possessions away, and has let you know in no uncertain terms that people with material wealth do not get into Heaven, yet you persist with bitcoin because you're driven by greed. Nothing wrong with that except, again, you should re-evaluate your beliefs because they do not align with your actions. You are ignoring your god, defying him, and that is the one unpardonable sin in Christianity.

Proof Every Christian Goes to Hell
1) The only irredeemable sin against your Lord thy God is denying him, the Holy Spirit
2) To deny is to refuse to admit truth of or to refuse to give that which is requested
3) Any sin is to deny god of his commandments
4) Therefore, even one sin results in a soul that cannot be forgiven. Sin once, and you're going to hell whether you repent or not. Since Christians are "born into sin" they're automagically damned to hell and cannot be forgiven.

I used to day trade Bitcoin successfully. Then I took an arrow to the knee.
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