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Author Topic: Religious beliefs on bitcoin  (Read 22354 times)
neurobox
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June 27, 2013, 12:24:34 AM
 #741

It's House of Submission, or House of War. Also the only way a muslim is guaranteed paradise is either to die a martyr spilling the blood of the enemy (thus martyr means murderer), to be one of the 70 or so folks that a martyr might be allowed intercede for, or to give in support of jihad, which is said to be of equal reward. Is it any wonder that Europeans are now being randomly butchered alive on their own streets? For one thing, as much as we might owe multiculturalism to Islam, we must also recognize how many of them see it, as an opportunity to take advantage of the filthy kafir, weaken them, and overcome them.

Of course, to most muslims, these are extremist cases, those crazy ones that actually consider doing what the quran and the mullahs suggest,
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June 27, 2013, 12:27:03 AM
 #742

Islam is socially perpetuated by paternity and mortal fear. It won't be the last cult system established in that pattern. It has only passing resemblances to Judaism, but is wicked to the core. Islam means submission, and the majority will follow their leaders. They commonly await the 5th Imam, expecting him to lead them to global dominance (the root meaning of mujahed, root word of jihad)

Again, looking at the modern world, have you ever wondered why the most affluential progressives seem to have a common affinity for Islam, only paying lip service to its enemies?

What I cannot understand is why women, who are obviously forced into a submissive and often abusive role in Islam, do not leave, especially when they understand more or have the freedom to do so?  I guess there is the social stigmas and familial pressures that keep them there, but it is not a very "woman friendly" religion for sure.

When reading the Koran it is pretty obvious that it is not a tolerant religion but one that has violent roots and certainly a strong belief that all "infadels" which is everyone besides those that believe like they do, should be put to death.  It is not a "gospel" of love, grace, redemption or peace but instead a false gospel of hatred, violence and control.  There is certainly a belief in "good works" earning a person their way to heaven in the Koran.  However, their idea of "good works" could include killing people for their cause. (I was once told that the sign of a false religion is one in which salvation needs to be earned.  Interesting thought for sure.  Only Christianity teaches that salvation is not able to be earned by anything we do and is a gift freely given by God and can only be obtained by repentance and acceptance)

Of course, that is not to say that there are some very loving and kind people that are Muslim.  It is just that there are certainly some things within Islam that are dangerous if people take them to the extreme.

    Salvation is not earned in Islam. Salvation is given by the Most Kind and the Most Merciful, Ar-rahman-i-rahim, feminine nouns in Arabic that stem from the same word root as womb in Arabic and Hebrew. How woman friendly is a male God and His son, and a gender neutral spirit?

Abusive for me is cultural norms that force women to wear clothing that reveals their curves, causing men to oggle them in public. Abusive for me is that in some places women are expected to go to the salon at least once a month and pay what a lot of people in the world make in a month to get their hair done. Then they are tricked by the advertising industry into buying makeup, jewelry, padded bras, and other such nonsense to attract attention. Let's not even get started on the position of women in the Bible- at least in Islam there is no original sin. Education has also been obligatory for women in the Islamic nation for over a thousand years.

 The Quran states that Christians, Jews, and others who believe and do good works will have nothing to fear on judgment day (2:62).
Christians often interpret only those who accept Jesus, peace be with him, will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Muslims accept Jesus as a Prophet and love and revere him, peace be with him.  

  The Muslims began by simply worshiping and were consistently attacked by polytheists. The first contact between the new Islamic state and Christian Roman empire was peaceful envoys sent by the Muslims who were then received by the Christians and immediately beheaded. Muslims accept the Bible as divine revelation with some adulteration- of which there is ample evidence given widespread destruction of texts, disputed versions of the Bible, translations with corrections and additions, and so on (see Nag Hammadi Library).

According to Islamic tradition, every person is marked from birth as a belonging to the party of the fire or the party of paradise. Salvation is not earned. Status is earned- there are degrees in paradise. Propaganda campaigns have been being run against Islam by Christians for a long time. This is understandable, since Islam does not have the same power structure as Christianity, which emphasizes the role of male priests. A lot of people have a lot to lose if their followers question the pope as being infallible- and a lot of people have a lot to lose if people start to question the infallibility of the Bible.

    Please be careful with your information on religions. There are a lot of interests at work here. There are good priests and bad priests, good imams and bad imams. You will know a tree by its fruit. The red pill is a hard one to swallow.

      
    

I think there are many Muslims with great hearts.  I think many have a heart of love and really do love God and are doing their best to serve the one true God for sure.  It is up to God to see their heart and decide.

Don't you think it is really troubling that Islamic tradition states that people are "marked" from birth though?  I suppose people are allowed to convert?  As for the tiers in heaven, that is where the issue is I guess.  I suppose Christians do believe in "heavenly rewards" but there is also a verse that says, "The last will be first and the first will be last."  It is not about keeping score or who is "better." 

As for the cultural issues with women, and how they dress, I will not argue with you on that.  It is more culture than religion though.  Growing up my parents were very strict in this.  They were from what was called a "holiness movement" in which women were to dress very modest and not even wear makeup.  However, I feel a women needs to be "in the world but not of the world."  And the Bible even teaches that a wise man avoids all extremes, but I try to be fairly modest myself, but I will wear makeup.  Wink

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June 27, 2013, 01:25:18 AM
Last edit: June 27, 2013, 03:17:46 AM by Rassah
 #743

Again, looking at the modern world, have you ever wondered why the most affluential progressives seem to have a common affinity for Islam, only paying lip service to its enemies?

It's because progressives don't like discrimination of any kind, and are defending Muslims that live in their civilized countries from those who would lump them in with the savages in the middle east. It's also because Christians are a majority, and Muslims are easy targets to discriminate against, so progressives see the injustice and try to stop it. Had Muslims been the majority, or Jews, and had Christians been the ones being persecuted and discriminated against, I'm sure progressives would have been defending Christians. I doubt most progressives even know what Islam is about, so I doubt they're just supporting a religion.

"While Christianity in recent years has moved towards a social gospel, Islam has been a social gospel from the start" Islam in the Modern World -- Wilfred Cantwell Smith 1946

Yeah, so what the hell happened? No one questions or denies that ancient Muslim nations had a great and awesome history with many contributions to the world. So how did it turn from that into such a horrific and appalling joke?
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June 27, 2013, 03:11:01 AM
 #744

    Disbelief will not harm the Most High, it will only harm those who become attached to this world.

Again, how? If this stuff doesn't affect our senses or our physical reality, then how can it harm us? Unless it can harm our senses or emotions, in which case this should be testable.


   For example- most religions, including Christianity, forbid the taking of interest on loans. While this might seem dogmatic, our current crisis would probably not be happening if the institution of interest were not so widespread. Right now interest rates are close to zero causing the economy to pick up again, which is bad news for people with huge piles of money who could normally just live off the interest. Again, people with experience of the unseen wrote this down at a time when literacy was very rare because they knew it was important for future generations to remember.
<snip>

Sounds like interest has a very real effect on the physical world, and like some people actually have theories about how it affects us, and are trying to affect the physical world's society by changing those rates to be close to zero. It seems we can also see the results of that near zero interest rate test, which is "rampant unsustainable borrowing leading to collapse." So this doesn't seem like it applies in the same way that spiritual and metaphysical things that we can't test or perceive with our senses and instruments does. Or are you suggesting that things like prayer and belief affect our real physical society in the same way that interest rates do? And if yes, what is causing that effect - shared belief and habits, or a higher power having direct influence?
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June 27, 2013, 03:25:08 AM
 #745

    Disbelief will not harm the Most High, it will only harm those who become attached to this world.

Again, how? If this stuff doesn't affect our senses or our physical reality, then how can it harm us? Unless it can harm our senses or emotions, in which case this should be testable.


   For example- most religions, including Christianity, forbid the taking of interest on loans. While this might seem dogmatic, our current crisis would probably not be happening if the institution of interest were not so widespread. Right now interest rates are close to zero causing the economy to pick up again, which is bad news for people with huge piles of money who could normally just live off the interest. Again, people with experience of the unseen wrote this down at a time when literacy was very rare because they knew it was important for future generations to remember.
<snip>

Sounds like interest has a very real effect on the physical world, and like some people actually have theories about how it affects us, and are trying to affect the physical world's society by changing those rates to be close to zero. It seems we can also see the results of that near zero interest rate test, which is "rampant unsustainable borrowing leading to collapse." So this doesn't seem like it applies in the same way that spiritual and metaphysical things that we can't test or perceive with our senses and instruments does. Or are you suggesting that things like prayer and belief affect our real physical society in the same way that interest rates do? And if yes, what is causing that effect - shared belief and habits, or a higher power having direct influence?

  Belief affects and shapes society and reality. Belief is caused by the direct influence of a higher power that is internal to all of us.
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June 27, 2013, 03:55:00 AM
 #746

     
    

I think there are many Muslims with great hearts.  I think many have a heart of love and really do love God and are doing their best to serve the one true God for sure.  It is up to God to see their heart and decide.

Don't you think it is really troubling that Islamic tradition states that people are "marked" from birth though?  I suppose people are allowed to convert?  As for the tiers in heaven, that is where the issue is I guess.  I suppose Christians do believe in "heavenly rewards" but there is also a verse that says, "The last will be first and the first will be last."  It is not about keeping score or who is "better."  

As for the cultural issues with women, and how they dress, I will not argue with you on that.  It is more culture than religion though.  Growing up my parents were very strict in this.  They were from what was called a "holiness movement" in which women were to dress very modest and not even wear makeup.  However, I feel a women needs to be "in the world but not of the world."  And the Bible even teaches that a wise man avoids all extremes, but I try to be fairly modest myself, but I will wear makeup.  Wink

       The first will be last, and the last will be first. First came Judaism, then came Christianity, then came Islam. Jealousy is forbidden in Islam except in two cases- in the case of jealousy of one who spends the wealth they have been given righteously, and one who has received knowledge and uses it and teaches it. I interpret this as meaning that competition in good works is a good thing, as long as we don't harbor ill will towards anyone.

        The dress code in Islam is first and foremost for protection. Islam teaches that it's forbidden to try to force people to believe in anything (2:256). Some have tried to force rules on people, but these are rare exceptions which get a HUGE amount of news coverage in Christian majority countries. I think the reasoning goes something like this: If you put on makeup to go out, you are making yourself beautiful for people other than your husband. If you are more beautiful for people other than your husband, you are more likely to get positive attention from them. If your appearance causes the thought to cross people mind of entering into adultery with you, even if it doesn't lead to anything, there can still be a subtle interaction that implants the idea in your mind. With this thought in mind perhaps you could go home to your husband, and with thoughts of amorous adventures in your mind, maybe you might think how boring, and be less grateful, and end up getting in an argument that upsets your kids, who go outside sad and angry and throw a rock at a dog, who gets upset and later bites a kid, who then is scared of dogs and kicks dogs later in life, and those dogs bite more people... ahh, you see where I'm going. The rules of modesty are meant to improve quality of life in this world and the hereafter. It's fun getting attention and flirting but it leaves you wanting more, and eventually there is a crash as you get older, which is why I think so many women end up spending so much money on anti-aging products or plastic surgery as they get older- attention withdrawal.
     In Islamic countries women get respect and even reverence from the community the older they get.
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June 27, 2013, 03:59:24 AM
 #747

Yeah, so what the hell happened? No one questions or denies that ancient Muslim nations had a great and awesome history with many contributions to the world. So how did it turn from that into such a horrific and appalling joke?

The BBC documentary The Rise of the Politics of Fear, does a good job of highlighting how the west created Radical Islam for a political tool of polarized good and bad.

As for the debate on religion and interest - it is only morality wrong when considered usury. When you look at it through the lens of macro economics and the effective use of capital it is the cost of money and provided the risks and costs are fair and mutually agreed it is a necessary in creating prosperity.

I won't defend the banking system of today but under a fixed monetary system like gold, having a market (thus interest) for money is the tool that created greater prosperity in the west.

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June 27, 2013, 04:01:10 AM
Last edit: June 27, 2013, 04:16:01 AM by semaforo
 #748



Yeah, so what the hell happened? No one questions or denies that ancient Muslim nations had a great and awesome history with many contributions to the world. So how did it turn from that into such a horrific and appalling joke?

    Please spend some time in this part of the world if you can. Politics do not necessarily reflect the people.
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June 27, 2013, 04:12:53 AM
 #749

Yeah, so what the hell happened? No one questions or denies that ancient Muslim nations had a great and awesome history with many contributions to the world. So how did it turn from that into such a horrific and appalling joke?

The BBC documentary The Rise of the Politics of Fear, does a good job of highlighting how the west created Radical Islam for a political tool of polarized good and bad.

As for the debate on religion and interest - it is only morality wrong when considered usury. When you look at it through the lens of macro economics and the effective use of capital it is the cost of money and provided the risks and costs are fair and mutually agreed it is a necessary in creating prosperity.

I won't defend the banking system of today but under a fixed monetary system like gold, having a market (thus interest) for money is the tool that created greater prosperity in the west.

      Please explain how a market is equivalent to interest? The issue is with using money to make more money without any underlying assets or value adding process. Return on investment and interest on a loan are not the same thing.

   Also, there is greater concentration of wealth in the countries with white majority, but honestly, considering that this greater prosperity started with the looting of south americas gold and the building of the slave plantation system in the Caribbean, and given the environmental consequences associated with this model of growth, do you really, honestly think that it is sustainable, especially considering that wealth is being concentrated in the hands of those who are already rich? As the middle class evaporates, poor people will see no point in knuckling under since they have no chance at getting rich anyway, and there will be more unrest.
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June 27, 2013, 04:51:02 AM
 #750

Belief is caused by the direct influence of a higher power that is internal to all of us.

That's quite a leap. A lot of the world's economic policies and beliefs are influenced by ideas invented by Keynes. Does that make him a higher power?
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June 27, 2013, 05:20:33 AM
 #751

Please explain how a market is equivalent to interest? The issue is with using money to make more money without any underlying assets or value adding process. Return on investment and interest on a loan are not the same thing.

   Also, there is greater concentration of wealth in the countries with white majority, but honestly, considering that this greater prosperity started with the looting of south americas gold and the building of the slave plantation system in the Caribbean, and given the environmental consequences associated with this model of growth, do you really, honestly think that it is sustainable, especially considering that wealth is being concentrated in the hands of those who are already rich? As the middle class evaporates, poor people will see no point in knuckling under since they have no chance at getting rich anyway, and there will be more unrest.

A market is where you go to buy what need and sell what you make. Interest is the cost of needing money.

To clarify: to lend money with interest to some who need food or a flat screen TV is easy to identify as usury.
To lend money to some who wants to work but has no means is providing for someone who needs money.

And I thought I was an interest fundamentalist. For a lively debate on interest I would recommend reading this:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=222845.0 my view is expressed there.

TLDR contemporary Keynesian economists encourage usury to benefit the wealthy, and fixed money Austrian's encourage saving to benefit the working class.

Interest becomes necessary when the money is horded and the economy starts to shrink. (the lack thereof was one of mechanisms behind the demise of the Ottoman Empire)

As for how the wealth in the world came to be where it is, is to think and speak of terrible evil. My purpose is to fix the cause of the problem and allow the poor to share the inheritance of abundant prosperity that is human ingenuity. The mechanism to offset greed is inherent in nature we just need to embrace it.


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June 27, 2013, 11:09:49 AM
 #752



Science is one system of belief- not the system of belief. How can light be both a particle and a wave? Any physicist, theist or not, will acknowledge this reality. It depends on the observer and the method of observation.

Science isn't a system of belief, it's a system of doing verifications on ideas, and discarding those ideas we can't verify. As for the light being a particle and a wave, that's just another variation of "How can bumble bees fly?" Sure, those not familiar with this aspect of light might think this is a tough question that can't be answered, but it can and has been.


      The scientific method of inquiry is based on a belief system that prioritizes sensory data to the exclusion of all other data. Implicit in this belief is the absolute accuracy of sensory perception, although we have ample scientific documentation of situations in which "reality" can be shaped based on the group pressure or beliefs of a subject. In other words, the scientific method can falsify itself. That is not to deny the utility of scientific observation, it is simply to point out that like Newtonian physics, it has a spectrum of reality in which it is applicable, but it is not a transcendent truth, which is exactly what theists claim the Creator to be. For non-sensory perception, see "genetic memory" and "epigenetics." I don't know if anyone is researching the pineal gland as a sensory organ, but I don't think so since how would you make money off of it, and how do you get a research grant then??

     The dual nature of light is an accepted scientific model, and the bumblebee argument is a thought experiment like the black swan. The example of light is cited to illustrate that the observer will always affect the outcome of an observation, and that objectivity is the mythical holy grail of science, that never has been and never will be found. My concern in the belief of the findings of the scientific method as representing transcendent truth is
1) these truths always can and do change
2) taken to the logical end it can result in a justification of hedonism
3) it can lead to an emphasis on materialism as the importance of emotional and spiritual dimensions is downplayed due to the difficulty of quantifying them

   I see the scientific mode of inquiry as one valid perspective among many. I worry that its preeminence is one of the reasons that neo-liberal economic models reign in policy making today- the economic models currently used only try to calculate growth and often ignore more difficult to model factors like inequality, or prioritize production efficiency (output) over consumption efficiency (marginal utility or satisfaction). I would neither deny scripture nor scientific documentation of perception as a source of truth- to do either would limit my dataset. I don't think these perspectives are incompatible, but they are sometimes framed as such in an emotionally charged debate with economic incentives- I mean party politics.

     Thank you for this lively discussion. I doubt we will be able to conclude a hundreds of years old debate, but I appreciate your demonstration of these very robust reasoning processes.
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June 27, 2013, 11:15:09 AM
 #753

Belief is caused by the direct influence of a higher power that is internal to all of us.

That's quite a leap. A lot of the world's economic policies and beliefs are influenced by ideas invented by Keynes. Does that make him a higher power?

   No, it makes all of his teachers, his genes, and his influences in his life that led him to produce the theory he did a higher power. Oh, and all of the influences that shaped his ancestors both culturally and genetically, and all of the factors that influenced his teacher's thoughts culturally and genetically, and all of the factors that shaped all of them... all of that taken as a Unity, what can we call it? The writers of the Torah settled on El or Yahweh as a word to indicate this supreme unity.
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June 27, 2013, 05:24:25 PM
 #754

Belief is caused by the direct influence of a higher power that is internal to all of us.

That's quite a leap. A lot of the world's economic policies and beliefs are influenced by ideas invented by Keynes. Does that make him a higher power?

   No, it makes all of his teachers, his genes, and his influences in his life that led him to produce the theory he did a higher power. Oh, and all of the influences that shaped his ancestors both culturally and genetically, and all of the factors that influenced his teacher's thoughts culturally and genetically, and all of the factors that shaped all of them... all of that taken as a Unity, what can we call it? The writers of the Torah settled on El or Yahweh as a word to indicate this supreme unity.

That idea, that we are all connected, and we are still figuring out the ways in which these connections connect and influence us, may very well be true. As a scientist and an atheist, all I can say is "we just don't know yet." An yeah, thanks for the discussion, too.
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June 27, 2013, 06:00:19 PM
Last edit: June 27, 2013, 06:43:46 PM by neurobox
 #755

Likewise, thanks guys, it's been real (so to speak). Doubtful whether anyone has been significantly moved in the course of it, but at least it's interesting to see how such intricate worldviews intersect.

While I have the deepest respect for each of you, you have my story, my defense of my personal knowledge of the Messiah, and my words of warning. and of hope.  My inbox is open if there's anything else you'd like to discuss.. 
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July 07, 2013, 01:40:22 AM
 #756

The Great Satoshi is the one true Messiah

For he blessed the world with BITCOIN

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July 07, 2013, 05:00:10 PM
 #757

The Great Satoshi is the one true Messiah

For he blessed the world with BITCOIN


Except that due to the cost of mining only the CHOSEN PEOPLE can now be part of it!

My $.02.

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Firing it up


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July 07, 2013, 05:40:26 PM
 #758

In general, limited supply is the rule for this.
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July 07, 2013, 06:59:42 PM
 #759

The Great Satoshi is the one true Messiah

For he blessed the world with BITCOIN


Except that due to the cost of mining only the CHOSEN PEOPLE can now be part of it!

Anyone who runs a full node by running Bitcoin-qt is running all of Satoshi's code, and thus is one of the chosen, who's computer has been touched by Satoshi.
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July 07, 2013, 08:20:01 PM
 #760

The Great Satoshi is the one true Messiah

For he blessed the world with BITCOIN


Except that due to the cost of mining only the CHOSEN PEOPLE can now be part of it!

Anyone who runs a full node by running Bitcoin-qt is running all of Satoshi's code, and thus is one of the chosen, who's computer has been touched by Satoshi.


Um..................OK.............

I'll take your word for that!

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