The Holy Grail! I wish I could kiss the author of Bitmessage on his face.

[oakpacific]

So, if I understand this correctly...

Bitcoin turns the whole internet into your personal checking/savings account, while BT+OP turns the whole internet into your personal clearinghouse and loan settlement network

Or, said another way:

You use Bitcoin like an equity network, i.e. to store, transmit, and settle value, and BT+OP like a liability network, i.e. to store, transmit, and settle debt.

Is this right?

It's not OP, it's OT......

AFAIK it's not stritcly personal, you need a transaction server, or as OP proposed, something backed by a multi-sig escrowed Bitcoin address with enough reserve which many people act as escrowers, so another user can withdraw his cash(a blind token) and give it to you, to allow you to withdraw from this big money pool. The whole point of OT, at its minimum, is that by using Chaumian blinding, neither the transaction server nor the escrowers can figure out the link between you and the person giving you the token, so the transaction can be carried out anonymously. Based on this form of anonymous transfer of cash, you can build instruments like cheques, IOUs, etc.

It may sound a bit centralized, but in fact its unanonymous form, the mixers, is already widely in use, OT just adds the anonymity to the mixers, in its bare minimum of course.

[Rassah]

It's not OP, it's OT......

It's 2:30am. I'm so excited by this I can't sleep. Or apparently think straight 

AFAIK it's not stritcly personal, you need a transaction server, or as OP proposed, something backed by a multi-sig escrowed Bitcoin address with enough reserve which many people act as escrowers, so another user can withdraw his cash(a blind token) and give it to you, to allow you to withdraw from this big money pool.

Can't users run their own servers to issue their own IOUs, too?

[Zangelbert Bingledack]

This sounds very promising, but we need this like yesterday. How can this be fast-tracked?

Also, can this be used for insurance policies and futures exchange?

Finally, is it just me or do we go back and forth between price surges and innovation? Just a few weeks of price stability and discussion on building stuff seems to have become fascinating again. We humans have a one-track mind, I guess.

[oakpacific]

It's not OP, it's OT......

It's 2:30am. I'm so excited by this I can't sleep. Or apparently think straight  

AFAIK it's not stritcly personal, you need a transaction server, or as OP proposed, something backed by a multi-sig escrowed Bitcoin address with enough reserve which many people act as escrowers, so another user can withdraw his cash(a blind token) and give it to you, to allow you to withdraw from this big money pool.

Can't users run their own servers to issue their own IOUs, too?

Yes, they can, but it has to be a somehow large pool, so you will need to process many tokens(think of it like a bank processing cash withdrawals/deposits) that you can't figure out who gives the token to whom, think about it, if a bankster only ever process cash withdrawals for one person, next time when he receives an identical banknote that he once gave away from another person, he can establish a connection between this person and his old customer, the whole point of unlinkability, and the unregulability as MSB(you can't ask me to record who gives money to whom because I don't know), is defeated.

[cypherdoc]

So, if I understand this correctly...

Bitcoin turns the whole internet into your personal checking/savings account, while BT+OP turns the whole internet into your personal clearinghouse and loan settlement network

Or, said another way:

You use Bitcoin like an equity network, i.e. to store, transmit, and settle value, and BT+OP like a liability network, i.e. to store, transmit, and settle debt.

Is this right?

It's not OP, it's OT......

also, its not BT it's BM.

lets just call it BMOT.

[bobdude17]

Possible to link to an ATM?(as well)

[Frozenlock]

lets just call it BMOT.

Agreed. BMOT!

When you get it you think like "why the hell did I not think of it myself", it is so simple! Kudos to Bitmessage inventors!

I know why I didn't... reading about the stream stuff, there's no way I would have been able to code that! 

[Luckybit]

Last night, randy-waterhouse and I were experimenting with Bitmessage. (*smooch*!!)

Bitmessage is a p2p messaging (and broadcast / subscription) protocol, based on the Bitcoin protocol.

It uses its own blockchain, but the chain only stores the last 2 or 3 days worth of messages. (It's assumed they were delivered within that time, where they are then safely stored on the recipient's inbox.)

Combining the above Bitmessage capabilities--which we already proved out experimentally--with Open-Transactions, makes possible fully-decentralized p2p markets, as well as p2p escrow across OT federated servers, easy p2p and server-to-server wiring of funds and conversion of currencies, both within OT and also between OT and the conventional banking system.

Furthermore, this is possible with little-to-no changes inside OT itself, and will not require the issuing of credit, nor will it require any pre-mined currency.

How does it work?

-----------------------------------------------------------

A few concepts...

--- First, keep in mind the concept that Bitcoins and Colored Coins (either/both) could be issued onto an OT server, without having to trust the server itself, through the use the multi-sig "voting pools" on the blockchain itself. I've already extensively discussed this on this board, and here's an article on how it's done:  http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/a/834/309

--- Second, keep in mind that using Colored Coins instead of Bitcoins is advantageous in certain circumstances, as it allows users to buy/sell those colored coins (for the purposes of transmitting other currencies) without incurring any capital gains tax liability. (I'm not a lawyer and that's not legal advice. The basic gist is, if you buy a colored coin for $100, and sell it for $100, there is obviously no gain or loss.)

-----------------------------------------------------------

T H E   H O L Y   G R A I L

Enter Bitmessage! (Which solves discovery across federated OT servers.)

As I said, randy-waterhouse and I already TESTED Bitmessage last night to prove experimentally that this is possible (and it worked.)

-----------------------------------------------------------

Using Bitmessage with OT to effect server-to-server wiring of funds: http://pastebin.com/NjQgDarx

--- The wiring protocol is all about Alice trying to discover Bob so she can move her money from one server to another (and Bob trying to discover Alice so he can make a profit by moving money from one server to another.)

-----------------------------------------------------------

Using Bitmessage with OT to effect escrow-based conversion of currencies across OT federated servers:  http://pastebin.com/S1W5guAQ

--- The currency conversion protocol is about Alice and Bob being able to choose a server they can agree to meet on so they can trade one currency for another inside OT. (For cases where they aren't already trading on the same OT server.)

-----------------------------------------------------------

Using Bitmessage with OT and SEPA so that Alice can p2p send any currency which Bob receives as Euros in his Euro account: http://pastebin.com/SsLrxVP6

--- The SEPA transfer protocol is about Alice being able to send Silver Grams, which Bob receives as Euros in his Euro bank account. It's also about Jorg earning a profit in silver grams, by sending a SEPA transfer to Bob on Alice's behalf.

-----------------------------------------------------------

We already knew that OT offered quite a few benefits to Bitcoin: http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/a/2710/309

But now, combined with Bitmessage, Open-Transactions becomes a juggernaut!

The above protocols can be implemented inside OT wallet GUIs, such that they are automated and transparent to users.

May a million currencies bloom!

I've been watching Open Transactions for the last 3-4 years and I knew there would come a time when it would be used for something. This seems a very effective method of creating a distributed exchange and I approve of it as I see how it could work in theory and in practice. All it would need is to be built so that we could go to a website or series of websites which host the back end. Users probably don't need to know the innerworkings and most users are used to interfacing with the web like with Localbitcoins, MtGox or whatever. Right now Bitmessage is a stand alone python app but it wouldn't take too much effort to turn it into a web app and to turn OT into a sort of back engine and once that happens then it's something which could work.

A Chrome and Firefox extension could work too.

[BTC Books]

So, if I understand this correctly...

Bitcoin turns the whole internet into your personal checking/savings account, while BT+OP turns the whole internet into your personal clearinghouse and loan settlement network

Or, said another way:

You use Bitcoin like an equity network, i.e. to store, transmit, and settle value, and BT+OP like a liability network, i.e. to store, transmit, and settle debt.

Is this right?

It's not OP, it's OT......

also, its not BT it's BM.

lets just call it BMOT.

Actually cypherdoc, I think OTBM works better:  "Off Topic Shit"  

[FNG]

 

Excellent. Now how long before the XRP bubble pops...

[Luckybit]

Just learned about Bitmessage. I suggest people go read the white paper on their wiki - short and to the point. It has the potential to upset email because of the increased privacy, built-in mailing-list functionality, and anti-spam measures (proof of work makes it hard to create lots of messages fast). This Open Transaction use case is a perfect example of the innovation possible with it.

It's not going to replace email. I've been looking at the code and it's not quite the work of art yet but it's more a hobby project. That said it fills an important niche at an important time.

[Luckybit]

Possible to link to an ATM?(as well)

Excellent idea. The ease of use factor should be considered from the start. Bitmessage could even be integrated into forums like these if handled right. Maybe similar to how Bittorrent spread, we'd have to create a .exchange or something similar or a bit:// or something.

[marcus_of_augustus]

This is very exciting! Yes author of Bitmessage got another little/big breakthrough and pushed crypto currencies to another cycle of development. Such a simple improvement or variation and with so important implications. When you get it you think like "why the hell did I not think of it myself", it is so simple! Kudos to Bitmessage inventors!

Ummm, it is the Open Transactions 'people' that came up with idea to use Bitmessage as secured P2P price/trade discovery mechanism ... which is actually the only part of a fully integrated P2P decentralised exchange that really needs to be P2P ... the settlement is taken care of by the Federation of OT servers (distributed semi-trusted nodes) perhaps localised also ... and potentially strong anonymity off-chain transactions (by notary mechanism only).

But who's counting precedence of ideas eh? 

[mmeijeri]

Excellent. Now how long before the XRP bubble pops...

See, this demonstrates the only thing people dislike about Ripple is that there is a risk it may make their bitcoins and mining rigs worthless. Ripple is more decentralised than OT! I think Bitmessage is great, and I've been running it for a while and advocating greater integration with Bitcoin. All these systems are partially synergetic and partially in competition with each other and both are great. OT can offer real untraceability, just like Zerocoin on top of Bitcoin.

[bobdude17]

Would love to not turn this into a discussion about Ripple.

[BTC Books]

Would love to not turn this into a discussion about Ripple.

+1

[themgp]

Is there a running OT server now?  (I assume there is one owned/operated by monetas.net?)  Are there others out in the wild?  If there are a couple of OT servers and the BM protocol can be established, all we need is an application that combines the two together to get a running P2P exchange, right?

[lexxus]

Watching this

[oakpacific]

What Open Transaction is trying to do is to provide a transfer mechanism, rather than issuing a currency, they use the word "cash" in this sense. If you want to hide your Bitcoin transfer, you can choose to use an OT server, which provably cannot see the link between two accounts involved in a transaction.

Fellowtraveler-- if you're willing to do some hand-holding I'd be really interested in making a Chaumian cash transaction through an OT server.

I only ever understand about 30% of your posts.  It doesn't make sense to me how Bitmessage could possibly be a missing link for OT, but I'd rather just go through the motions of making a few transactions and see how it works.

PM me

I think we really need to push this forward, volunteers? I can be a voting pool escrower or a transaction participator or something else.

[Kazimir]

Sounds very exciting. But I don't fully understand it yet, I tried to read some material on Open Transactions and BitMessage but still missing the point. Can anyone summarize what it is that OT and BM do, exactly?