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Author Topic: Slush Pool vs Kano?  (Read 5588 times)
jchi2210
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August 26, 2017, 02:03:39 PM
 #1

I am new to mining and I have been trying to figure out which pool I should direct my s9 towards. I have 2 more coming in the mail but 1 is in right now. I have heard a lot of good things about slush pool and Kano but I was going to see which one you guys think would be more profitable?
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August 26, 2017, 02:13:27 PM
 #2

I am new to mining and I have been trying to figure out which pool I should direct my s9 towards. I have 2 more coming in the mail but 1 is in right now. I have heard a lot of good things about slush pool and Kano but I was going to see which one you guys think would be more profitable?

Pool preference is very much a personal choice.  Read the second post in the thread link below and make sure you understand the PPLNS payout method, its really not that difficult to comprehend, but it does take some getting used to in the way it works.  Both pools you listed use this payout method, but with different settings and I think Slush scores his so that it favors the largest miners with work updates, or at least he used to.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=104664.msg1146108#msg1146108

That ground work being said, I would recommend Kano since is his always online and keeping his miners updated as to what is going on.  Slush has abandoned his users here since he unleashed the Stratum protocol on us.  So he is nowhere to be found these days.  I have no idea why that is OK with the people who do use his pool, but it wouldn't be OK with me.

Good Luck with your choice.

A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
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jchi2210
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August 26, 2017, 02:31:20 PM
 #3

I am new to mining and I have been trying to figure out which pool I should direct my s9 towards. I have 2 more coming in the mail but 1 is in right now. I have heard a lot of good things about slush pool and Kano but I was going to see which one you guys think would be more profitable?

Pool preference is very much a personal choice.  Read the second post in the thread link below and make sure you understand the PPLNS payout method, its really not that difficult to comprehend, but it does take some getting used to in the way it works.  Both pools you listed use this payout method, but with different settings and I think Slush scores his so that it favors the largest miners with work updates, or at least he used to.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=104664.msg1146108#msg1146108

That ground work being said, I would recommend Kano since is his always online and keeping his miners updated as to what is going on.  Slush has abandoned his users here since he unleashed the Stratum protocol on us.  So he is nowhere to be found these days.  I have no idea why that is OK with the people who do use his pool, but it wouldn't be OK with me.

Good Luck with your choice.

Thanks os2sam! I appreciate the reply and the advice. I have been leaning more towards kano because I have been hearing more good things about his pool. I think I'm going to give it a shot!
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August 26, 2017, 03:25:00 PM
 #4

I am new to mining and I have been trying to figure out which pool I should direct my s9 towards. I have 2 more coming in the mail but 1 is in right now. I have heard a lot of good things about slush pool and Kano but I was going to see which one you guys think would be more profitable?

Pool preference is very much a personal choice.  Read the second post in the thread link below and make sure you understand the PPLNS payout method, its really not that difficult to comprehend, but it does take some getting used to in the way it works.  Both pools you listed use this payout method, but with different settings and I think Slush scores his so that it favors the largest miners with work updates, or at least he used to.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=104664.msg1146108#msg1146108

That ground work being said, I would recommend Kano since is his always online and keeping his miners updated as to what is going on.  Slush has abandoned his users here since he unleashed the Stratum protocol on us.  So he is nowhere to be found these days.  I have no idea why that is OK with the people who do use his pool, but it wouldn't be OK with me.

Good Luck with your choice.

Thanks os2sam! I appreciate the reply and the advice. I have been leaning more towards kano because I have been hearing more good things about his pool. I think I'm going to give it a shot!

If you have a good understanding of PPLNS and the 5ND then I think you'll be happy there.

A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
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August 26, 2017, 03:54:17 PM
 #5

Well, there's also the fact that our pool fees are less than half of the slush pools fees Smiley
Slush is 2% we are 0.9%

Although the pool is only about 80PH, that's good enough that most of your shares are rewarded at the current difficulty.

At the moment difficulty is dropping, so a short delay in reward is also an advantage, but that drop wont continue for very long, so a long delay in reward on a small pool will almost certainly screw you over badly.

Pool: https://kano.is Here on Bitcointalk: Forum BTC: 1KanoPb8cKYqNrswjaA8cRDk4FAS9eDMLU
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August 26, 2017, 04:03:40 PM
 #6

I have tried out many pools and in the end I stood at the very same question that you're having right now:

Slush or Kano.

Both pools have advantages and disadvantages.

Kano:
+ GREAT support, great community
+ small fees
+ PPLNS: Your miner is offline, you just lose some hashpower for that shift but still get payed

- many small payouts. If you want to buy something immediately that means higher TX fees
- If bad luck hits you, it stays a while
- takes  3 days before you get your full reward. As a newbie that feels like ages, but it's worth waiting.


Slush:
+ You can set a minimum limit of btc for your payouts. Below it won't send the money to your wallet
+ Bad luck doesn't stay as long, since more hashpower (statistically speaking)
+ Immediate full reward. You hook your miner to the pool and they find something u get ur full pay. (However: That allows pool hopping)

0 Haven't tried out the support, didn't need it

- 1.1% higher fee
- No PPLNS, so if you're offline while they find a block you get 0 reward.


So I decided to split my hashpower among these two pools. It averages out bad and good luck. That's is the best solution in my opinion, due to the shown advantages and disadvantages.

Hope I could be of help.


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August 26, 2017, 05:59:41 PM
 #7

I have tried both the last month with 2 Antminer S9's and IMO they both are good and very close on what you can make. Slush has higher fees but a fancy home page and app on your phone with alerts. I do like the alert being I have had a few issues where a miner went down so I was able to get to it quickly. All in all I think Im going back to Kano to give it a try for a month and see where I make the most.
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August 26, 2017, 06:03:44 PM
 #8

I have tried both the last month with 2 Antminer S9's and IMO they both are good and very close on what you can make. Slush has higher fees but a fancy home page and app on your phone with alerts. I do like the alert being I have had a few issues where a miner went down so I was able to get to it quickly. All in all I think Im going back to Kano to give it a try for a month and see where I make the most.

Over time you will make the same on any pool, less the fee they charge.  So it really comes down to who you want to support and trust with your hash rate.

A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
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greyworld
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August 26, 2017, 07:45:16 PM
 #9

No question, ckpool wins hands down

http://www.ckpool.org

0% FEE.
0% FEE.
0% FEE.

Slush pool is pretty great, I like it and would recommend it in general.  But 0% FEE on a pool by the guy that wrote cgminer is awesome.

There is a downside... the pool is kinda small right now.  Could be waiting a few weeks to hit a block.  But when it happens, you'll get paid instantly.

Like Slush, and Kano, ckpool does give the miners the transaction fees.  Antpool, for the most part, does not.  Which amounts to a hidden 10-20% fee, so screw antpool, it's garbage.

However, unlike Kano's pool, there is no 'unpaid dust' on ckpool.  Kano's pool has a ramping up time period he calls 'dust mining'.  In three years, he has not paid out that dust to most of the people mining it.  And his miners will say 'oh that doesn't amount to much, whatever', but my experience has been for the 24+ hours I mined there, 100% of it was dust and none of that has been paid to me.  Kano has bragged to me about not paying out over 16 BTC (roughly $70,000 USD) of this 'dust' and other unpaid miner earnings.  One guy got screwed for 0.3 BTC because he didn't fill in the sign up form right, and afaik, Kano still hasn't paid him that.  That's over $1300!  The reason why Kano's miners have such nice things to say about his pool is that if you have a large mining rig, your rate is actually the 0.9% and the 'dust' is negligible.  However, if you don't have a huge hash rate, your 'dust' is MUCH higher.  That means smaller miners, like you, will subsidize the larger miners low rates with the payments you won't get.  Kano pool is terrible, I strongly advise against it.

Also, Kanopools PPLNS takes longer to ramp up than SPLNS that ckpool uses.

http://www.ckpool.org

The website is... uhh, ugly... but what they didn't spend on webdesign they give to the miners!  Also, it's very functional, up to the minute stats and estimate of payouts.

If you try to discuss any of these issues with Kano on his self-moderated pool thread, he just deletes the posts and tells you to leave, which by forum rules you have to do.  That's why you don't see people raging about this on his thread.  AVOID KANO POOL.

EDIT: If you'd like to see a nicer version of the ckpool page I'm working on, you can try out this preview:

http://www.ckpool.org/test.html

Same content, nicer CSS, and shows the pool info on the page instead of on a separate page.

(IMPORTANT:  For now, don't put www. in front of ckpool links or they won't resolve.  just "ckpool.org")

'¸ __ ¸*ˆ * ·¸ ____ ¸*ˆ*· ¸ ______________________ ¸ ·*ˆ*¸ ____ ¸· * ˆ*¸ __ ¸'
. `·.,¸¸,.' .CKPOOL.ORG - Zero Fee Anonymous Bitcoin Mining Pool´ . . . '.,¸¸,.·´ .
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ `·.,¸¸,' ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ',¸¸,.·´ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
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August 27, 2017, 01:53:27 AM
 #10

 Kano's pool has a ramping up time period he calls 'dust mining'.  In three years, he has not paid out that dust to most of the people mining it.  And his miners will say 'oh that doesn't amount to much, whatever', but my experience has been for the 24+ hours I mined there, 100% of it was dust and none of that has been paid to me.  Kano has bragged to me about not paying out over 16 BTC (roughly $70,000 USD) of this 'dust' and other unpaid miner earnings.  One guy got screwed for 0.3 BTC because he didn't fill in the sign up form right, and afaik, Kano still hasn't paid him that.  That's over $1300!  The reason why Kano's miners have such nice things to say about his pool is that if you have a large mining rig, your rate is actually the 0.9% and the 'dust' is negligible.  However, if you don't have a huge hash rate, your 'dust' is MUCH higher.  That means smaller miners, like you, will subsidize the larger miners low rates with the payments you won't get.  Kano pool is terrible, I strongly advise against it.

Dust is a payment that would cost more in transaction fees to spend then the amount that would be transferred.  It doesn't make sense to send a dust payment and would be bad for the end user.

Kano will, at some point, square up the accounting and pay out those dust payments and/or allow a minimum payment threshold to be set.  He has been very upfront with this fact.

A miner would need around 600GHs to stay above the dust threshold.  The OP has and S9 which is way above the level that would create dust amounts.  So it would be a non issue for this user.

A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
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kano
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August 27, 2017, 01:54:24 AM
 #11

...
However, unlike Kano's pool, there is no 'unpaid dust' on ckpool.
...
Incorrect, any balance below 5460 satoshi or 0.0000546 BTC is unpaid on ckpool

Quote
Also, Kanopools PPLNS takes longer to ramp up than SPLNS that ckpool uses.
False, it currently takes ~2.5 days to reward your shares on my pool, and it's a consistent "ramp" up and down.
That other pool takes months ... to make one reward ... but worse they found 2 blocks but lost the first one due to bad code ... that the pool owner decided the miners had to pay for that mistake and test his code for him. I guess he didn't have any confidence in his own coding ability and made others bear that burden of around 14 to 16BTC or $70,000, that will never be rewarded to the miners who should have got it.

Quote
The (ckpool) website is... uhh, ugly... but what they didn't spend on webdesign they give to the miners!
Lucky I wrote the website on my pool thus nothing was spent on "webdesign" Smiley

--

The ckpool "Zero Fee" is a gimmick to get miners in.
His solo pool charges more fees than mine and also expects a tip on top of those higher fees.

--

The SPLNS payouts system has extremely high variance. The reward based purely on the luck of your miner that you have no control over.
Thus yes, small miners can get lucky and take fees from the large miners ... so yeah if your a large miner, stay away.
In the pool's own words:
Quote
Lucky rewards - since shares are weighted by the difficulty of the share found, if you are a small miner that has a handful of lucky high diff shares, you can earn significantly more, capped at current network difficulty.
That "significantly more" is taken from the other miners, and the larger the "other" miner, the more they lose.

... and the block finders reward discards the first reward of the block finder, so it's odd that any large miner would want to mine there and lose some of those block finder rewards in the stated manner on the pool:
Quote
Block finder rewards - as per lucky rewards, a large share weight is attached to block finds (but is applied to the next block reward since user rewards are included in the existing unsolved block reward.) The sooner the next block is found, the higher the block finder reward is.

--

PPLNS has the same ramp up and down to ensure hopping or changing accounts wont pay extra.
If SPLNS has a shorter ramp up than the ramp down, then that means that either:
1) The down ramp simply delays paying you the same amount longer than expected
OR
2) You can hop accounts on the pool by always switching to a new account each time you've completed your ramp up, and get paid more.

The reasoning is simple: on a consistent pool hash rate, the amount of the ramp up will be expected to be equal to the amount of the ramp down.
Thus if one ramp is larger than the other ramp, the large one is simply extending out that reward more slowly than the smaller ramp.
However, if the math of the two ramps don't produce exactly the same expected reward, you simply overlap the ramp up on one account with the ramp down on another account and thus expect to be paid more, like hopping, and taking reward from the other miners.

A shorter ramp also means a higher chance of not being rewarded if you can't mine for a period of time.
Of course it doesn't have an expected loss, but instead a shorter ramp increases payout variance.

So basically the whole SPLNS pool payout design produces an exceptionally high variance on your tiny payout.
Higher than any other pool's variance, it's basically a gambler's paradise.

You can go in with a lot of mining and get poor rewards due to the luck of the other miners.
You can go in with a small amount of mining and get better rewards due to the luck of your miners.
As shown above in the quotes, the pool even states this.
You have no control over either of that luck, so it's simply gambling with your hash rate.
A very bad idea for a large miner ...


PPLNS luck is based on the block finding luck of the pool. This part of the variance is due to, and part of the design of Bitcoin.
This variance is dependent upon the size of the pool.
The share finding luck variance is negligible, so the block finding variance is the only variance that you need to take into consideration on a good sized PPLNS pool.
i.e. it basically doesn't have much effect as long as the pool isn't too small.

However, with PPLNS and SPLNS, the rewards paid to miners are also affected by the time between block finds.
Shares are rewarded at the difficulty rate when the block is found, not when the shares were mined.
So if the pool isn't finding enough blocks per difficulty change (or isn't finding any every difficulty change) then you can expect very poor rewards.

If you are lucky and all your shares are mined when the difficulty was higher than when the block was found, then that is to your advantage.
So if you can find a Bitcoin network drop that goes on for months, then you'll make more BTC than expected.
However, this doesn't happen to BTC unless BTC is dying and the price would be expected to fall, so you'll miss out anyway Smiley

Short periods of difficulty instability can occur - like now - but you do want to hope they are only short for the sake of Bitcoin ...
When the time between your mining and block finding on a pool is large, you can expect to be rewarded very badly due to this.

Pool: https://kano.is Here on Bitcointalk: Forum BTC: 1KanoPb8cKYqNrswjaA8cRDk4FAS9eDMLU
FreeNode IRC: irc.freenode.net channel #kano.is Majority developer of the ckpool code
Help keep Bitcoin secure by mining on pools with full block verification on all blocks - and NO empty blocks!
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August 27, 2017, 02:13:52 AM
 #12

Dust is a payment that would cost more in transaction fees to spend then the amount that would be transferred.  It doesn't make sense to send a dust payment and would be bad for the end user.

Kano will, at some point, square up the accounting and pay out those dust payments and/or allow a minimum payment threshold to be set.  He has been very upfront with this fact.

A miner would need around 600GHs to stay above the dust threshold.  The OP has and S9 which is way above the level that would create dust amounts.  So it would be a non issue for this user.

Slush and ckpool both have a way to deal with that, and it's obvious and simple: accumulate the dust and send it when it has hit an appreciable level.

"at some point" has been waiting three years.  Let's face it, 'some point' will never happen.

And even if you're over the dust threshhold, you still lose 'dust' during ramp up time (several days).  And if you're not much over that threshhold, it's a lot.

'¸ __ ¸*ˆ * ·¸ ____ ¸*ˆ*· ¸ ______________________ ¸ ·*ˆ*¸ ____ ¸· * ˆ*¸ __ ¸'
. `·.,¸¸,.' .CKPOOL.ORG - Zero Fee Anonymous Bitcoin Mining Pool´ . . . '.,¸¸,.·´ .
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August 27, 2017, 02:25:42 AM
 #13

Incorrect, any balance below 5460 satoshi or 0.0000546 BTC is unpaid on ckpool

Yes but if you build up beyond that, it does.  With your pool, it doesn't.

False, it currently takes ~2.5 days to reward your shares on my pool, and it's a consistent "ramp" up and down.
That other pool takes months ... to make one reward ... but worse they found 2 blocks but lost the first one due to bad code ... that the pool owner decided the miners had to pay for that mistake and test his code for him. I guess he didn't have any confidence in his own coding ability and made others bear that burden of around 14 to 16BTC or $70,000, that will never be rewarded to the miners who should have got it.

If the pools had the same hash rate, SPLNS would ramp up faster.

Lucky I wrote the website on my pool thus nothing was spent on "webdesign" Smiley

Also explains why it's ugly as sin.


The ckpool "Zero Fee" is a gimmick to get miners in.
His solo pool charges more fees than mine and also expects a tip on top of those higher fees.

Gimmick or not, 0% is a lot less than yours.  Figuring each mined block yields at least 13(ish) BTC, your 0.9% fee amounts to $500 per mined block.  Yet you still won't pay me my $2.


Kano -> "blah blah blah"

Don't care, 0% beats your $500 per block hustle every day of the week. 

Pay 100% of your miners 100% of what they earned! 



1KR2h2THQzQNoAq6f3PF1Qj3kxSXakH2oL

'¸ __ ¸*ˆ * ·¸ ____ ¸*ˆ*· ¸ ______________________ ¸ ·*ˆ*¸ ____ ¸· * ˆ*¸ __ ¸'
. `·.,¸¸,.' .CKPOOL.ORG - Zero Fee Anonymous Bitcoin Mining Pool´ . . . '.,¸¸,.·´ .
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ `·.,¸¸,' ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ',¸¸,.·´ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
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August 27, 2017, 02:52:08 AM
 #14

...
The ckpool "Zero Fee" is a gimmick to get miners in.
His solo pool charges more fees than mine and also expects a tip on top of those higher fees.

Gimmick or not, 0% is a lot less than yours.  Figuring each mined block yields at least 13(ish) BTC, your 0.9% fee amounts to $500 per mined block.  Yet you still won't pay me my $2.
Quote
Don't care, 0% beats your $500 per block hustle every day of the week.  

Heh so your saying that since my fee is lower than all the larger pools and also lower than ckpool solo pool, then that's a $550 per block hustle on the ckpool solo pool?
Then he expects them to pay him a tip on top of that $550 hustle Smiley ... even more hustle? Smiley

Quote
Yeah who cares about how the payouts actually work and what rewards most miners actually get ... LOL


Edit: you should tell me your account on my pool, so that when I do the accounting code next and clear all the books, I'll make sure I don't pay you ... since we wouldn't want me to make a liar of all the posts where you've said I wont ever payout the dust Cheesy

Pool: https://kano.is Here on Bitcointalk: Forum BTC: 1KanoPb8cKYqNrswjaA8cRDk4FAS9eDMLU
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Help keep Bitcoin secure by mining on pools with full block verification on all blocks - and NO empty blocks!
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August 27, 2017, 03:02:20 AM
 #15

Kano:

True or false?

"Kanopool always pays 100% of the miners 100% of what they earned."

FALSE

End of discussion.

'¸ __ ¸*ˆ * ·¸ ____ ¸*ˆ*· ¸ ______________________ ¸ ·*ˆ*¸ ____ ¸· * ˆ*¸ __ ¸'
. `·.,¸¸,.' .CKPOOL.ORG - Zero Fee Anonymous Bitcoin Mining Pool´ . . . '.,¸¸,.·´ .
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ `·.,¸¸,' ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ',¸¸,.·´ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
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August 27, 2017, 03:20:58 AM
 #16

Kano:

True or false?

"Kanopool always pays 100% of the miners 100% of what they earned."

FALSE

End of discussion.
No pool does - end of discussion.

Pool: https://kano.is Here on Bitcointalk: Forum BTC: 1KanoPb8cKYqNrswjaA8cRDk4FAS9eDMLU
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August 27, 2017, 03:35:41 AM
 #17

No pool does - end of discussion.
...also FALSE!!



********* 0% FEE *********

--> ckpool.org <--

********* 0% FEE *********




'¸ __ ¸*ˆ * ·¸ ____ ¸*ˆ*· ¸ ______________________ ¸ ·*ˆ*¸ ____ ¸· * ˆ*¸ __ ¸'
. `·.,¸¸,.' .CKPOOL.ORG - Zero Fee Anonymous Bitcoin Mining Pool´ . . . '.,¸¸,.·´ .
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ `·.,¸¸,' ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ',¸¸,.·´ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
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August 27, 2017, 03:42:58 AM
 #18

No pool does - end of discussion.
...also FALSE!!

********* 0% FEE *********

--> ckpool.org <--

********* 0% FEE *********
Nope, that pool so far is below 50%
They didn't payout the first block the pool found (and never will) and the dust unpaid puts the total below 50%

Pool: https://kano.is Here on Bitcointalk: Forum BTC: 1KanoPb8cKYqNrswjaA8cRDk4FAS9eDMLU
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August 27, 2017, 04:12:32 AM
 #19

Nope, that pool so far is below 50%
They didn't payout the first block the pool found (and never will) and the dust unpaid puts the total below 50%

That's not entirely accurate.  Because it was the very first block mined with newly developed code, an unfortunate coding snafu caused a wire to get crossed and no one got any of the coin.  It sucks, but everyone involved knew they were were part of a beta testing program, and that there were risks.  ck didn't get paid either, no one did.  A regrettable problem that has since been fixed,  immediately... not after three years of silly excuses.  

But it's not like ck got it and failed to pay it out (like you with that $70,000 you've put off paying people for 3 years).  

And miner's dust is accumulating and will be paid by a functional system that is already in place.  I mined for a few hours one day during the last block, went elsewhere for weeks, but when that block got solved, I got paid immediately even though it was only $1.14.  Dust: paid.

'¸ __ ¸*ˆ * ·¸ ____ ¸*ˆ*· ¸ ______________________ ¸ ·*ˆ*¸ ____ ¸· * ˆ*¸ __ ¸'
. `·.,¸¸,.' .CKPOOL.ORG - Zero Fee Anonymous Bitcoin Mining Pool´ . . . '.,¸¸,.·´ .
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ `·.,¸¸,' ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ',¸¸,.·´ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
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August 29, 2017, 11:06:27 AM
 #20

If you ask me, use Slush if you have hash power.
Everything works just fine, long time now.



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